Do you think with newer and better monitors it's easier to read ar10?
requirepeople these days are a joke or something
Playing with no dim and epilepsy storyboards HDHR is amusing. You get a bit of introspective into why a lot of pro player skins weren't fully transparent hit circles back in the day. It's funny that people spend so much time trying to find ways to get better at this game doing anything other than playing more when that time would be better spent playing more.Aqo wrote:
requirepeople these days are a joke or something
in 2012 we used to read AR11 (10+DT) with no dim (because it didn't exist back then), with map backgrounds and storyboards/videos, on old 4:3 60Hz monitors
git gud. AR10 is 450ms, that's almost half a second, which is approximately like forever. even if your screen has 20 frames refresh rate that's like 9 frames you get to stare at the approach circle, which is far more than enough.
So if it's a placebo then it has a real beneficial effect because they would play better believing to play better at 144hz than at 60hz?jesse1412 wrote:
I got a 144hz, it's placebo with the added effect of looking a bit smoother. People seem to believe "smoother" is easier somehow.
We can get into a debate about what the eye can see (l0l 30fps is all you n33d h4h4 stupid pc gamer wasting money on 144hz when their 3y3s cant s33 it h4h4). Skip the bullshit and tell me the perceived clarity of motion does not make it easier to react to a patterns at higher ar's? Perfect example, I was shit at reading triples at anything higher than ar9 pre144hz monitor. Post144hz monitor, I can magically react to it? If you were able to read higher ar's without 144hz than good for you, you were either genetically hardwired for osu or worked harder than most to learn higher ar's at 60hz.jesse1412 wrote:
I got a 144hz, it's placebo with the added effect of looking a bit smoother. People seem to believe "smoother" is easier somehow.
In spite of any financial hardships you may ever face in your life (once again, god forbid) what situation would cause you to not game at a higher refresh rate? Entertain my mind with a single one.Khelly wrote:
I would play osu again at 60hz because it means I can deal with any hz 60+ but if I started again with 144 it means it would be harder if I ever had to go back down
OK DADchainpullz wrote:
Kids these days just don't understand that struggling is an important part of the learning process
Not having any available 144hz monitor to use.Clappy wrote:
In spite of any financial hardships you may ever face in your life (once again, god forbid) what situation would cause you to not game at a higher refresh rate? Entertain my mind with a single one.Khelly wrote:
I would play osu again at 60hz because it means I can deal with any hz 60+ but if I started again with 144 it means it would be harder if I ever had to go back down
That's like saying, if I got use to playing with that ice cream cone, it could hinder my performance if I ever played without it. **Few moments later** Ice cream cone? Man I could spend my money to jack off with plastic, I dont need that shit.Khelly wrote:
Not having any available 144hz monitor to use.
Not wanting to spend the money to acquire said 144hz because 60hz doesn't hinder my performance in the relevant AR's I play and I can spend the leftover money on onaholes and dakimakuras.
If it doesn't matter, then how do you foresee yourself developing a necessity for it? Man I really can't live without my appendix...Khelly wrote:
What are you trying to say when you use ice cream cone as an analogy? It doesn't make sense to me unless you're trying to say 144hz doesn't matter in which case might as well go for 60hz because it doesn't matter.
So I can have either minimal increase in percieved smoothness from switching to 144hz or the same thing I use now at 60hz which is perfectly acceptable for what I do. The opportunity cost of not being able to go back to 60hz from 144hz is too high. I can also spend the money on something else.
The same way some people can only play ar10 and not lower ar's. Except in this case if I want to use a 144hz monitor I don't change down to lower hz's randomly as I play.Clappy wrote:
If it doesn't matter, then how do you foresee yourself developing a necessity for it? Man I really can't live without my appendix...SPOILERyou can
That's comparing apples to oranges. A high AR dependence stems from only playing higher ar's and for the most part you're right, they can't play maps because they lack the reading ability and the connotation with it is generally negative. A higher refresh rate dependence stems from your eye being trained to see increased motion clarity (connotation: positive). Which would suggest it would matter and until you've actually experienced it first hand, you really can't say it doesn't matter or not.Khelly wrote:
The same way some people can only play ar10 and not lower ar's. Except in this case if I want to use a 144hz monitor I don't change down to lower hz's randomly as I play.Clappy wrote:
If it doesn't matter, then how do you foresee yourself developing a necessity for it? Man I really can't live without my appendix...SPOILERyou can
I finished that example with a nice summary to show your flawed logic. You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have. A crackhead doesn't become a crackhead until they've tapped into those white rocks. If you know a way to become a crackhead without crack (which is what your situation implied) please tell me.Khelly wrote:
I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have - that's the exact reason why I wouldn't want to play 144hz until that becomes some kind of standard for most monitors.Clappy wrote:
I finished that example with a nice summary to show your flawed logic. You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have. A crackhead doesn't become a crackhead until they've tapped into those white rocks. If you know a way to become a crackhead without crack (which is what your situation implied) please tell me.Khelly wrote:
I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
Ok perfect, I'll take that. I'm leading you to the crack. But, you're afraid to try something that doesn't matter? Or does it matter. But, there are first hand, second hand, and third hand examples (forums, reviews, friends, people that actually have the product) that the disparity in motion clarity is not minimal. It is actually night and day, ergo it matters? Can you give me that? I do not lead people to crack that does not matter.Khelly wrote:
You can't develop a dependency on something you will never have - that's the exact reason why I wouldn't want to play 144hz until that becomes some kind of standard for most monitors.
The way you're saying it is to imply that you should try something that will obviously lead to a dependency because they won't have that dependency unless they try.
Can you re-read this for me when you try to argue against "my" statement of "it doesn't matter"Khelly wrote:
I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
The underlying theme here, it does not matter. Closer to the beginning of our arguement.Khelly wrote:
Not wanting to spend the money to acquire said 144hz because 60hz doesn't hinder my performance in the relevant AR's I play and I can spend the leftover money on onaholes and dakimakuras.
The underlying theme here, it does not matter. Yet, saying that you will develop a need for 144hz because the motion clarity is too great to ever look back. Ergo it matters.Khelly wrote:
The same way some people can only play ar10 and not lower ar's. Except in this case if I want to use a 144hz monitor I don't change down to lower hz's randomly as I play.
Here is where you abandoned your original argument and began stating that I implied it doesn't matter because I used an "ice cream cone" analogy to a highly illogical statement you provided.Khelly wrote:
I was saying I don't understand your ice cream cone example and it only makes sense to me if YOU'RE saying it doesn't matter.
Here we go with the illogical statements againKhelly wrote:
I can already play what I need at 60hz making 144hz not a necessity
1) A Necessity it may not but it's certainly highly-recommended? Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet?Khelly wrote:
It's not a necessity if it's not necessary to use to play the game. I and many others are playing the game without it. It's not a necessity.
Even in the case of ar 10 and 10.3, it's NOT a necessity by any means.
It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one.
So you're using one monitor in one place in one store to say that 60 hz isn't more readily available? It'd make sense if I said 144hz isn't readily available, but not that 60hz is.
That $50 can go to an onahole and that's worth it more to me than marginal benefits I would get from 144hz. (Actually $150 can get me an autoblow2 since my current monitor isn't broken)
2) It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one. Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet?Comparing 144hz monitor to tablet+keyboard ----> looking at HDHR (player) or Wilchq or any other top20 who play on 60hz ----> facepalming
Clappy wrote:
But, if you did succumb to such trauma (god forbid) would you take the trip to mastering osu again with 60hz or 144hz? They exist for a reason, it is not just some big ass marketing scheme.
Take a sample of the top 100 player base on 60hz and compare to 144hz. If it does not matter ask your top players to play without 144hz. You're just blowing smoke. A 144hz monitor provides a much different visual signature than its 60hz counterpart and it is superhelpful. You're all saying its not necessity, by that same logic a tablet and keyboard isn't a necessity. Let's see a 60hz, walmart mouse-only player top 1000. There might be one, hell MAYBE two.[Taiga] wrote:
2) It will not help my performance to an amount that I feel is enough to justify ever going out and getting one. Do you have a mechanical keyboard and tablet?Comparing 144hz monitor to tablet+keyboard ----> looking at HDHR (player) or Wilchq or any other top20 who play on 60hz ----> facepalming
okStefan wrote:
No, git gud. Play hard.
Funny as hell that 7 of our top 10 players (pp wise) are using 144hz monitors.[Taiga] wrote:
You can normaly get into pro skill level top10 with 60hz
Take a sample of the top 100 player base on 60hz and compare to 144hz. If it does not matter ask your top players to play without 144hz. You're just blowing smoke. A 144hz monitor provides a much different visual signature than its 60hz counterpart and it is superhelpful. You're all saying its not necessity, by that same logic a tablet and keyboard isn't a necessity. Let's see a 60hz, walmart mouse-only player top 1000. There might be one, hell MAYBE two.Great amount of top100 players use 60hz.
You keep saying it's not a necessity, but what you see in the game can be HUGE factor in how you play the game.Khelly wrote:
None of these things are necessities. But I can tell you that I can't play with a mouse anymore.
Also a tablet/mouse isn't like a monitor in that it's literally the way you PLAY the game as opposed to how you see what's happening in it.
The 144hz monitor is not a necessity over 60hz in playing ar10 or 10.3 judging from the many people that have gotten good enough fcs on 60hz.
Where did you even get this from?Clappy wrote:
But I see your point, there's tons of people that make the switch and say man this shit is garbage and return the monitor - wait there are none.
I see 6% (2 of these have since switched - so 4% currently) out of 100, www switch, index switched, jesus switched, cookie switched, there's arguments on both sides, but with 144hz becoming more the norm with each passing day. Kind of hard pressed to make me see your case as it was, seeing that high refresh rates will be the way of many very soon.[Taiga] wrote:
Great amount of top100 players use 60hz.
WWW was making ar11 high acc FC on 60hz.
Wilchq reached top20 with rubberdome shitty keyboard, mouse and 60hz.
HDHR plays on both - mechanical and rubberdome depends on mood and 60hz.
Angelsim afaik uses 60hz.
_index made first 600pp score on 60hz (yes, he switched to 144 after this one when he finished crowdfounding for his treatment and new computer)
Bikko the HDHR acc god 60hz
How many more examples of notable amazing players you need to understand that 144hz isn't a big deal if you are skilled enough?
More of a common sense thing - the same way you keep saying you'd perform exactly the same on 144hz opposed to 60hz. However, I'm inclined to say that my suggestion makes a lot more sense seeing as people progress in skill with higher refresh rates, as opposed to returning their 144hz monitor.Khelly wrote:
Where did you even get this from?Clappy wrote:
But I see your point, there's tons of people that make the switch and say man this shit is garbage and return the monitor - wait there are none.
I see 6% (2 of these have since switched - so 4% currently) out of 100, www switch, index switched, jesus switched, cookie switched, there's arguments on both sides, but with 144hz becoming more the norm with each passing day. Kind of hard pressed to make me see your case as it was, seeing that high refresh rates will be the way of many very soon.No it will not for one particular reason: money vs what it gives. 144hz is nothing in great amount of games, not mention you don't use 144 in office work at all. There are single titles what benefits from it and honestly, in every single one there will be people proving their superiority with 60hz over players with 144hz. Deal with this. 144 buying people who have money for this just for their experience. Normaly you don't need it at all to be a pro player and that i already proved.
Khelly wrote:
I have no need to switch to 144hz except to have 144hz because the benefits won't be as huge as you seem to claim.
Khelly wrote:
Where did you even get this from?
So what does this have to do with returning the monitor because it's trash? It has to do with not switching in the first place. I even said I'd take it if you give me a lifetime supply of 144hz for free though.Clappy wrote:
Khelly wrote:
I have no need to switch to 144hz except to have 144hz because the benefits won't be as huge as you seem to claim.Khelly wrote:
Where did you even get this from?
It's like saying man, tablets aren't necessity when the vast majority of the osu! community uses them. You can be pro without yes, you have proved that, but what are the chances of you being hvick or www? Especially since our better players are switching them anyways? If they don't need them why fix what aint broke and get a 144hz anyways?[Taiga] wrote:
No it will not for one particular reason: money vs what it gives. 144hz is nothing in great amount of games, not mention you don't use 144 in office work at all. There are single titles what benefits from it and honestly, in every single one there will be people proving their superiority with 60hz over players with 144hz. Deal with this. 144 buying people who have money for this just for their experience. Normaly you don't need it at all to be a pro player and that i already proved.
AR11 don't require 144hz at all - WWW proved this, EP proved this, hvick proved this.
I'm damn sure a crackhead would be ecstatic at a free lifetime supply of crack too, but the point is you're saying you don't need it to be pro, when the evidence suggests otherwise. There are VERY few cases for your arguments and PLENTY for mine.Khelly wrote:
So what does this have to do with returning the monitor because it's trash? It has to do with not switching in the first place. I even said I'd take it if you give me a lifetime supply of 144hz for free though.
Kisses wrote:
y do ppl spended hours in heated debate of monitors
y not enjoy game
It's like saying man, tablets aren't necessity when the vast majority of the osu! community uses them.One more time - comparing pointing devices to display device - faceplam.
You can be pro without yes, you have proved that, but what are the chances of you being hvick or www? Especially since our better players are switching them anyways? If they don't need them why fix what aint broke and get a 144hz anyways?Upgrading hardware normally thinks getting better performance. Why you don't say that over 80% or even 90% of this people upgraded FULL HARDWARE including PC? Oh wait, so for now getting PC from NASA also boost your performance in Osu? If i had money to upgrade my case, i would also take 144hz because why not? Here how it works. Simple.
In League of Legends LCS, the monitors they use are the Asus VG248QE.Same as in every big tournament hosted by companies with huge wealth - they give players top tier hardware. It proves nothing here. It's actually "armaments race" between Valve / Riot / WarGaming who host more luxory and most geared tournament.
In CS they use 144hz monitor or some variant + interpoling that gives 240hz.
Do you play osu in an office?My workspace doesn't care what i do when i am in office as far as my job is constantly done before time so yes, it happens.
Higher refresh monitors, in a gaming enviroment, are always a plus and you're only gimping yourself and what you may achieve without them. You're not pro on 60hz but damn hvick and EP are. 2 out of many fish in the sea?I never said anything about myself, where you took this?
y do ppl spended hours in heated debate of monitorsThis is forum, it's a place to make this kind of discussions and exchange opinions and POV. Top kek lol.
y not enjoy game
5) Tell me someone that gets a 144hz monitor then says its not worth their investment then returns it, if any, they are little because it's not a necessity, but you're getting what you pay for. That's with anything in life.God damn, it's not a point here, obviously you don't return a luxury item.
Unless you're a grill who just got handed a 144hz monitor by some dumbass donator on stream you're more than likely to have some experience with the game to indulge in tablets, keyboard, 144hz monitor, whatever luxury item you may have. But believe me when I tell you, the monitor makes reading easier... If don't believe it, I'll just indulge in my 250 Dollar placebo. While you're waiting around for a free stack of 144hz monitors for the rest of your life.[Taiga] wrote:
some aspects of the game may be easier at CERTAIN POINT
But believe me when I tell you, the monitor makes reading easier... If don't believe it, I'll just indulge in my 250 Dollar placebo. While you're waiting around for a free stack of 144hz monitors for the rest of your life.Believe me or not, practicing complex patterns makes my reading better. If i will want 144 monitor, i will buy it, i just don't feel like buying something what will be complete waste of money. By my ideology as adult guy - if you can save up money because you still can get something with enough practice - do it. I prefer save up and buy better car / fund good international trip for parents than spend for some useless item which... let's be honest can be easily replaced by better skillcap.
Car Salesman: "[Taiga]! Sir did you pay for half a car? Let me get you the whole car because you expect it."That is plain stupid *facepalm*
Daily reminder that this reminder is not daily.jesse1412 wrote:
144hz, it's placebo with the added effect of looking a bit smoother.
You can definitely notice higher than 60 and it looks smoother but it really doesn't help.Clappy wrote:
We can get into a debate about what the eye can see (l0l 30fps is all you n33d h4h4 stupid pc gamer wasting money on 144hz when their 3y3s cant s33 it h4h4). Skip the bullshit and tell me the perceived clarity of motion does not make it easier to react to a patterns at higher ar's? Perfect example, I was shit at reading triples at anything higher than ar9 pre144hz monitor. Post144hz monitor, I can magically react to it? If you were able to read higher ar's without 144hz than good for you, you were either genetically hardwired for osu or worked harder than most to learn higher ar's at 60hz.jesse1412 wrote:
I got a 144hz, it's placebo with the added effect of looking a bit smoother. People seem to believe "smoother" is easier somehow.
Now lets throw some hypotheticals, it is damn-near impossible for you to lose a skill like this (osu!) without severe brain trauma. But, if you did succumb to such trauma (god forbid) would you take the trip to mastering osu again with 60hz or 144hz? They exist for a reason, it is not just some big ass marketing scheme.
Companies like ASUS, BenQ, AOC, and Phillips are cashing in big time on placebo? Or (more likely) the perceived clarity of motion that higher refresh rates have to offer.
Clappy wrote:
Take a sample of the top 100 player base on 60hz and compare to 144hz. If it does not matter ask your top players to play without 144hz. You're just blowing smoke. A 144hz monitor provides a much different visual signature than its 60hz counterpart and it is superhelpful. You're all saying its not necessity, by that same logic a tablet and keyboard isn't a necessity. Let's see a 60hz, walmart mouse-only player top 1000. There might be one, hell MAYBE two.
Cmon we both know if those 7 changed to 60hz tomorrow they'd still do just as well.Clappy wrote:
Funny as hell that 7 of our top 10 players (pp wise) are using 144hz monitors.[Taiga] wrote:
You can normaly get into pro skill level top10 with 60hz
What units are these numbers in?abraker wrote:
If I was to base skill points on just the ability to react to a something on a screen by pressing a button (like a typical measure your reaction game), these would be the skill requirement values:
.............AR 10................AR 10.3............AR 11
.60 Hz...289.401..............370.546.............754.161
144 Hz..275.282..............350.456.............698.931
As you can see, there is barely any difference between skill requirement for 60 Hz and for 144 Hz on AR 10. The skill requirement difference between the refresh rates for AR 11, however, is comparable to the difference between AR 10 and AR 10.3. Just as a reminder, you can achieve these skill requirements with enough practice anyway, granted a player would achieve the same skill requirement faster with a 144 Hz.
So no, AR 10 DOES NOT require a good monitor and high FPS. Just play more.
A skill requirement of 1000 is based on the median reaction time and a skill requirement of 500 is based on the average reaction time of the lower half of the userbase. Data has been modeled according to the statistics found here (data was modified to match the trend for <140ms and other discrepancies).Khelly wrote:
What units are these numbers in?
I like how at 60 hz it's still well below the median reaction time at ar 10.3abraker wrote:
A skill requirement of 1000 is based on the median reaction time and a skill requirement of 500 is based on the average reaction time of the lower half of the userbase. Data has been modeled according to the statistics found here (data was modified to match the trend for <140ms and other discrepancies).Khelly wrote:
What units are these numbers in?
So a skill requirement of 1000 equates to 240 ms and a skill requirement of 500 equates to 350 ms. The modeled function is a/(x^b).