im not very good at arguments and i dont like drama so it might be worth dqing for now...
[highly subjective opinions, beware]Monstrata wrote:
Maaan, I spent almost as much time mapping as editing the mp3 too.
Anyways, i'll just answer to the mods, whether this gets dq'ed or not, it's up to the QAT's now. I'm going to reply with the assumption that this may get dq'ed.
Reply 00:15:273 (1) - this repeat isnt following anything, definitely sounds more 1/3 though. The beat is even way off sync with the vocals here, but the timing doesn't adapt to either. This is mapped to the vocals which I've established are in 3/4 rhythm earlier. It's 3/4 here too and I can't see how it would be misread as some other rhythm. They are supposed to follow the vocals, yet they are off by a huge margin. This is fine because...?
00:11:523 (1,2) - I'd suggest silence the sliderends if they're not following anything but are just enlonged sliders that skips the beat. They're already using soft-samplesets which I think are quiet enough. Fair enough, might've been because of the loud combos that I felt the need to point it out.
00:19:023 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - what exactly is this trying to follow? Neither vocals nor beat is whatThey're following the beats. Is it?
I mean, before this pattern these sliders you map by the actual beat, then you do these 3/4 sliders when vocals start, which according to you is mapped to the beat, then right after it ends you go back to actually mapping to the beat. It's clear you're not following the main beat here, but changed up to fit the vocals, which is incredibly messy on both sliderstarts and ends as the vocals constantly change and are 10 times louder than the underlying beat. Denying this makes no sense, but I can't really do much more for you.
00:27:929 (2,3,4,5,1) - off timing, a bit too early along with the majority of the map. It's a case where the first note is ~4ms early and every subsequent 1/4 note is less and less off so if you really want a 127.99 red line here for accuracy I can put it there. If I change the main offset to 300 instead of 273, these sound on timing. Wouldn't you agree?
As for the timing, the original bpm on youtube is about 129.9 bpm. The original mp3 i timed ended up having like 16 red lines and bpm changes. From my experience timing, and mapping mapsets with horrible timing, only modders/mappers are concerned with "perfectly accurate" timing while players, especially top ranked/HR players will morelikely complain when a map is correctly timed. Not every song is meant to be mapped, especially if they are produced poorly and not timed well to begin with. I believe it's ok to map according to the beat alone if the vocals&beats are off sync, but then when you're actually mapping to the vocals, you have to throw in some reds so that they aren't off by 30 ms.
Here are three maps where every timing shift is noted with bpm changes, or offset resets:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/289074
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/313239
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/323044
I can confidently say from the feedback I've gotten over the months, that while, according to the mapping community, timing these songs accurately is "best", for the players, the people actually playing this map, not looking at it at 25% speed, the bpm shifts and offset resets are just unreasonable because they don't contribute to rhythm. In a rhythm game, if one 1/2 beat is 400 ms apart, you naturally expect the next beat to be 400 ms apart, not 380, or 425 etc... That doesn't contribute to rhythm, even if it is more accurate. Honestly, I found out about the things I pointed out because it sounded off to me (thanks to the incredibly high hitsounds). I didn't even have to go 25% at first, but did so to make sure. We either follow the rules or we don't when mapping. What the players think of a map because it has several timing shifts couldn't matter less.
Of course, theres also the argument "well what about maps like Roze, or etc..." those maps are centered around a changing bpm because they follow a piano that is consistently changing. They aren't trying to have a single, predictable rhythm. The song is best appreciated through those bpm changing values, and the player is fully prepared for that. They are not prepared for bpm and offset shifts on a song that is supposed to be a single bpm, as this song is. It just doesn't fit.
The vocals are clearly off tune because they aren't mapped with the intention of syncing with the music. With that said, the rhythms in this song almost exclusively map to the background drum, with the exception of the "beers" which I edited to be as accurate as possible lol.
I guess this is still a very relevant question to ask though, for those keen on the "timing" argument. If perfect timing is hurting a map's playability, should we still aim for perfect timing? I've learned to answer this with "no" and give the best offset I can, with some mp3 editing for sections that are really off.
just want to add that regardless of your efforts to fix the issue this song has in production, making notes up to 30 ms off is clearly not for the benefit of the map.
I'm fine with this getting dq'ed because yea, I never intended for this drama to happen. It didn't happen when I speed-approved own the sky in 24 hours, or akaito in 36 hours, when i qualified 3 maps in one day, or when i qualified 8 maps one day after another. I don't know why this one got special treatment lol. It's just business as usual.
Anyways, thanks for the comments, lets calm down and wait for a QAT to decide how best to address this situation. I think everything that's wanted to be said about circlejerking/speedranking has already been said.
Liiraye wrote:
[highly subjective opinions, beware]Monstrata wrote:
Maaan, I spent almost as much time mapping as editing the mp3 too.
Anyways, i'll just answer to the mods, whether this gets dq'ed or not, it's up to the QAT's now. I'm going to reply with the assumption that this may get dq'ed.
Reply 00:15:273 (1) - this repeat isnt following anything, definitely sounds more 1/3 though. The beat is even way off sync with the vocals here, but the timing doesn't adapt to either. This is mapped to the vocals which I've established are in 3/4 rhythm earlier. It's 3/4 here too and I can't see how it would be misread as some other rhythm. They are supposed to follow the vocals, yet they are off by a huge margin. This is fine because...?But they aren't off by a huge margin.
00:19:023 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - what exactly is this trying to follow? Neither vocals nor beat is whatThey're following the beats. Is it?
I mean, before this pattern these sliders you map by the actual beat, then you do these 3/4 sliders when vocals start, which according to you is mapped to the beat, then right after it ends you go back to actually mapping to the beat. It's clear you're not following the main beat here, but changed up to fit the vocals, which is incredibly messy on both sliderstarts and ends as the vocals constantly change and are 10 times louder than the underlying beat. Denying this makes no sense, but I can't really do much more for you. They are following the beat though. The vocals are clearly off sync, I mean, you can clearly tell they aren't even snapped to any rhythm xP...
00:27:929 (2,3,4,5,1) - off timing, a bit too early along with the majority of the map. It's a case where the first note is ~4ms early and every subsequent 1/4 note is less and less off so if you really want a 127.99 red line here for accuracy I can put it there. If I change the main offset to 300 instead of 273, these sound on timing. Wouldn't you agree? No, I think they're a lot closer than you're making them out to be.
As for the timing, the original bpm on youtube is about 129.9 bpm. The original mp3 i timed ended up having like 16 red lines and bpm changes. From my experience timing, and mapping mapsets with horrible timing, only modders/mappers are concerned with "perfectly accurate" timing while players, especially top ranked/HR players will morelikely complain when a map is correctly timed. Not every song is meant to be mapped, especially if they are produced poorly and not timed well to begin with. I believe it's ok to map according to the beat alone if the vocals&beats are off sync, but then when you're actually mapping to the vocals, you have to throw in some reds so that they aren't off by 30 ms.Like I said, I'm not mapping to the vocals . I seldom do that for any of my maps anyways since I much prefer mapping to instruments xD.
I can confidently say from the feedback I've gotten over the months, that while, according to the mapping community, timing these songs accurately is "best", for the players, the people actually playing this map, not looking at it at 25% speed, the bpm shifts and offset resets are just unreasonable because they don't contribute to rhythm. In a rhythm game, if one 1/2 beat is 400 ms apart, you naturally expect the next beat to be 400 ms apart, not 380, or 425 etc... That doesn't contribute to rhythm, even if it is more accurate. Honestly, I found out about the things I pointed out because it sounded off to me (thanks to the incredibly high hitsounds). I didn't even have to go 25% at first, but did so to make sure. We either follow the rules or we don't when mapping. What the players think of a map because it has several timing shifts couldn't matter less.You should mod more then, because this is a lot grayer than you seem to think . It'll just become even more subjective once score v2 goes out.
Anyways, thanks for the comments, lets calm down and wait for a QAT to decide how best to address this situation. I think everything that's wanted to be said about circlejerking/speedranking has already been said.
I just got a bit worked up seeing how confident everyone was of it's quality and using that as an arguement while it's clearly lacking. For the map itself I can't really say much, it's made for memes and pp nothing special or noteworthy other than trying to be as simple and passable for ranking as possible. As a BN I'd strive to make great maps instead of stock piles, but of course I won't tell you what to do. It takes hard work to be creative in mapping and everyone should be allowed to map however they want. But if quality means being as generic and simple as possible, I have to disagree with that entirely.
The map isn't trying to be special. The goal in this mapset is not to make the next mapping masterpiece. It's 30 seconds long lol. You're free to disagree, I can't stop you, nor do I want to. Some people do strive to make high quality, highly rated maps, like yourself, so I can see why you would have qualms about mappers who just want to map for personal and community enjoyment (and not much more). The audience that this map is aimed at is not the mapping community/mapping community's approval, it's just another map for players to laugh at, and laugh with, and then forget about in a week or so - and I'm quite fine with that.
Thanks for the concerns. I hope i've explained my side more clearly. I totally understand if a QAT want's to dq this though, I'm replying with that possibility in mind.-Nya- wrote:
I never posted my thoughts in a qualified map's forum before, but since others have already I thought I'll say a few things as well.In Easy this slider 00:19:023 (1) - is touching the HP bar. (Probably not unrankable but I always point this out in mods, so if this set gets DQ'ed I think you should try to fix that.) I never fix these when i reply to any mod anyways xD. It's not unrankable, and I value my mapping structure above hp bar etc...
In Advanced: I don't understand this spacing: 00:18:788 (3,1) - at all and it will throw players off imo. There may be a good reason though, I don't know. This is perfectly fine. It will throw no one off, you have to enable stacking to view this pattern properly. Without stacking enabled it will look like a mess, but that's not how it will play out .
In the Insane: I think you have to be careful with spacings like this: 00:25:819 (1,2) - because of the CS that is so utterly small it causes the jumps to be much bigger. And I'm sorry but the small circle size makes this diff so unpleasant to play (And it's frustrating) ;w; I don't see a problem xP. It's just larger spacing. There's nothing to be careful of. Is it confusing to read? Because I don't think it is. If the complaint is just that you think the spacing is too big then I would just disagree and move on. If the complaint is on the cs size, then that's just a mapper's choice .
You're probably going to ignore this, but anyway, good luck, monstrata~
- Magic Bomb - wrote:
monstrata, the colour of your text there should be illegal, my eyes hurt
I'm open for any suggestion that help me not having a really unpleasant rhythm there.Microsoft Vista wrote:
i like how the irre diff has tons of spinner filler because apparently mapping 30 seconds is too much effort
Maybe go into the editor.dreamless wrote:
how's this rankable with 29 second drain anyway
maybe be less of a condescending cunt to people with genuine questions? it says 00:29 drain literally everywhere, i did not know the site rounds down >00:30 drain back down to 00:29.Stjpa wrote:
Maybe go into the editor.dreamless wrote:
how's this rankable with 29 second drain anyway
Thanks monstrata, I tried following the beer but it somehow changes really oddly.. I'll give it a go again.Monstrata wrote:
@Irre - I tried editing the mp3 during the section between 00:19:023 - and 00:22:304 - to sync the beer's with the drums, but since the vocals + drums play to different offsets I can't just edit the vocal offset without affecting the drum's offset xP. Maybe someone who's really good at mp3 editing can pull this off, but it's beyond my scope, so I think spinners there aren't bad rhythm choices either. The other option is mapping to the metronome which is what I did, but it seems people don't like that either xD.
ok i don't know i was just bitterfor some reasonIrreversible wrote:
I'm open for any suggestion that help me not having a really unpleasant rhythm there.Microsoft Vista wrote:
i like how the irre diff has tons of spinner filler because apparently mapping 30 seconds is too much effort
Since i Nc'ed on all the "beer's (red ticks)" instead of whites, it felt more natural to NC on 00:07:640 (1) - . A stand-alone NC is a bit awkward too imo since it makes the note seem more important than it actually is.Yales wrote:
Just a detail but on the highest diff I don't see why you don't put the NC here 00:07:773 (2) - as you always did what as it sounds the most natural thing to do.
No kd, was just making the point o.o
ecdonald wrote:
hello, I'd like to have a few opinions
Irreversibeer's Insane:
00:09:999 (1) - , 00:10:116 (1) - , 00:10:468 (1) - , 00:10:585 (1) - , 00:10:937 (1) - , 00:11:054 (1) - , and 00:11:405 (1) -
Are the green lines in spinner of 5%-65%-5%-65%-...volume change intended? the spinningsound feels somehow weird when I spinning my cursor, I would delete and unite the volume to 65% fxd
Also, It would be better if 00:09:413 (4,5,6) - moved 1 grid up (grid level 4). this makes stacking of 00:09:648 (6) - and 00:09:179 (3) - , which is more neat for me fxd
and...I couldn't see the reason you didn't set a note on 00:15:155 (6) - since you noted on 00:14:218 (3) -. These are exactly same sounds, so noting both would makes consistency of following the song (example of cordinate: x:256 y:264) well, there is a dominant vocal
thanks! hope it will gets requalified
Maybe drunk?Fateburn wrote:
am i drunk or is the map completely off from music