18:09 Touhou: rhythm wise
18:09 kolgar: ok
18:11 kolgar: ok i hear it like i placed circle on every "strong" beat (what i heard the loudest) and you put circles also between, although i dont understand why somewhere and why somewhere not
18:12 Touhou: i played it to the vocals only
18:12 Touhou: placed*
18:13 kolgar: still doesnt make me certain about this space then 00:34:464 -
18:13 Touhou: the lyrics are like this:
18:13 Touhou: daaaaaance fu-ker dance
18:13 kolgar: i memorized them
18:14 Touhou: do you know what syllables are?
18:14 Touhou: it's when you have a word
18:14 kolgar: yeah
18:14 Touhou: and you can divide it
18:14 Touhou: good
18:14 kolgar: i am in 10th grade
18:14 Touhou: as you can see the word dance is only one syllable
18:14 kolgar: i know a bit of english
18:14 kolgar: yeah exactly
18:14 kolgar: the other one is two
18:14 Touhou: yes
18:15 Touhou: so we put one object for dance
18:15 Touhou: because it's only 1 syllable
18:15 Touhou: fu-ker is two
18:15 Touhou: so we put two objects
18:15 kolgar: and two for the other one
18:15 Touhou: and the dance after fu-ker is one syllable again
18:15 kolgar: ok this made sense to me even before i hope
18:15 Touhou: so we put one more circle
18:15 Touhou: now let's replace 1 and 4 by sliders
18:16 Touhou: 00:35:415 - this part has the word "maybe"
18:16 kolgar: ok
18:16 Touhou: "may-be"
18:16 Touhou: two syllables
18:16 Touhou: two circles
18:17 kolgar: there is not maybe
18:17 kolgar: it is man he
18:17 kolgar: never had a chance ....
18:17 Touhou: oh
18:17 Touhou: it's man he?
18:17 Touhou: well still 2 syllables
18:17 Touhou: xd
18:17 kolgar: but yeah i understand
18:18 kolgar: the next long word is chaaaance
18:18 kolgar: iirc
18:18 kolgar: so again slider ?
18:18 Touhou: yes!
18:18 Touhou: you got it
18:18 Touhou: woooo
18:18 Touhou: but wait
18:18 Touhou: did you do this?
18:18 Touhou: 00:35:891 -
18:19 Touhou: it's "ne-ver had a "
18:19 Touhou: four circles
18:19 kolgar: yeah i did
18:19 kolgar: and chance 1/1 slider
18:19 Touhou: yup!
18:19 Touhou: good
18:19 Touhou: before we continue
18:19 Touhou: i want to explain new combo
18:20 Touhou: 00:35:891 - listen to this part
18:20 Touhou: the guitar changes a bit in the background
18:20 Touhou: it get's really loud for that one circle
18:20 Touhou: that's where we will put a new combo
18:21 kolgar: i actually would do a NC there, but because of the vocals :/
18:21 Touhou: combos make a group out of certain sounds
18:21 Touhou: when the sound changes or ends
18:21 Touhou: a new combo begins
18:21 kolgar: now i hear the guitar
18:21 kolgar: mb
18:21 Touhou: it's also a valid point for the vocals
18:21 Touhou: you are right
18:21 Touhou: but the guitar is a bit more intense imo
18:22 Touhou: it just bursts out of the background
18:22 Touhou: into the foreground
18:22 kolgar: yeah you are right
18:22 Touhou: just like the drums will in a bit
18:22 kolgar: hmm i see
18:22 Touhou: 00:39:697 - please map to this point
18:22 Touhou: when you reached this
18:22 Touhou: i will help with the drums
18:22 Touhou: because they're a bit hard
18:22 kolgar: ok
18:23 kolgar: let me try at first
18:23 kolgar: myselft
18:23 kolgar: myself*
18:23 Touhou: sure!
18:23 Touhou: small help: most new combos start at the big white line
18:23 Touhou: they're called ticks
18:23 Touhou: you seem them in the top time line
18:23 Touhou: but it's not always like that
18:24 kolgar:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/523558718:24 kolgar: that is how i tried
18:25 kolgar: now NC yet though
18:25 kolgar: these are the drums only
18:25 Touhou: wow
18:25 Touhou: very good
18:25 Touhou: that's perfectly right
18:26 kolgar: thanks
18:26 Touhou: but for an hard difficulty it's a bit diffiuclt
18:26 Touhou: There is a little trick to make it easier
18:26 kolgar: yeah, i would add some sliders
18:26 Touhou: repeating sliders
18:26 Touhou: and you make them match the vocals!
18:26 kolgar: that is what i meant
18:27 kolgar: ok one small window here 00:39:935 -
18:27 kolgar: what would i have to do about that
18:27 Touhou: hmmm
18:27 Touhou: option 1:
18:28 Touhou: make a slider on the previous object
18:28 Touhou: and this will beocome the slider end
18:28 Touhou: or
18:29 Touhou: i think this fits the best
18:29 Touhou:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/523561218:29 Touhou: you picked a difficult song for a first map
18:29 kolgar: ok i picked a song i like
18:30 kolgar: i think that is more important than being easy
18:30 Touhou: yes it is
18:30 Touhou: that will keep your motivation up
18:30 Touhou: do you see the gap betwen 1 and 3?
18:30 Touhou: i mean 1 and 2
18:31 kolgar: what?
18:31 kolgar: oh sorry
18:31 Touhou: the slider
18:31 kolgar: did not see the ss yet
18:31 Touhou: and then the triplet (3 circles)
18:31 Touhou: ah ok
18:31 Touhou: i wait
18:31 kolgar: wow
18:31 kolgar: i did the same LOL
18:31 kolgar: although changed combo colour at the first repeat slider
18:31 kolgar: but yeah i see that gap
18:32 kolgar: that is not a big of a problem imo
18:33 Touhou: yup it's not
18:33 Touhou: it's good for hard
18:33 Touhou: for insance difficulty
18:33 Touhou: you can close the gap with a circle
18:33 Touhou: and make it a small stream
18:33 Touhou: but i would use 3 circles as a burst max
18:33 Touhou: for hard difficult
18:33 Touhou: y
18:34 kolgar: i dont think that is too good
18:34 kolgar: i would disagree with that option
18:34 kolgar: people will generally hear the triplet
18:34 kolgar: not a quadruplet
18:34 Touhou: the end of the slider
18:34 kolgar: it will make more sense while they will be playing
18:34 Touhou: also counts as a circle
18:34 Touhou: don't forget that
18:34 Touhou: that means it's actually 5
18:35 kolgar: i don't
18:35 kolgar: i mean that people would not understand the reason behind that stream
18:35 Touhou: the drums
18:35 kolgar: they would not hear it at the slider end
18:35 Touhou: true
18:36 Touhou: that's an insane or extra would look like this
18:36 Touhou: 1 sec
18:36 kolgar: sure
18:36 Touhou:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/523565718:36 Touhou: that's how it would be for an insane or extra
18:37 Touhou: the clickable objects are for the drums
18:37 Touhou: the streams however need to be shaped into patterns matching to the vocals
18:37 kolgar: actually i would split that
18:37 kolgar: into two streams
18:37 kolgar: because it doesn't make much sense to do it as long as this
18:38 Touhou: now we have a encountered a problem
18:38 Touhou: the problem is
18:38 Touhou: do we map it to reflect the music
18:38 Touhou: or do we map it for the player?
18:38 kolgar: combinde
18:38 Touhou: if we map for the player, we give him a break
18:38 kolgar: combined*
18:38 Touhou: if we map for the music, we make one big stream
18:39 Touhou: the reason for the long stream is mainy the vocals
18:39 Touhou: they are chained together
18:39 Touhou: a player would expect to follow the vocals but click to the drums
18:39 Touhou: if the drums suddenly have one empty space
18:39 Touhou: but the vocals go on
18:39 Touhou: the player will be confused
18:39 Touhou: because he wanted to follow the vocals more
18:40 Touhou: i hope it makes sense how i put it xd
18:40 kolgar: ok now i agree
18:40 kolgar: but well
18:40 kolgar: the vocals are still 1/2
18:40 kolgar: and the drums are 1/4 - the streams
18:40 Touhou: the words are like this
18:40 Touhou: it was rea-ly on-ly you
18:41 Touhou: the ly are long
18:41 Touhou: they don't just end
18:41 kolgar: i know
18:41 Touhou: he hold them a bit
18:41 Touhou: holds*
18:41 kolgar: but
18:41 Touhou: and exactly that held vocal can confuse the player
18:41 Touhou: if he has to stop here
18:41 Touhou: because he has been following the vocals all this time
18:42 Touhou: and now suddenly he doesn't anymore
18:42 Touhou: this is consistency
18:42 kolgar: the -ly of on-ly is here 00:40:410 (4) - and then is another new word here 00:40:648 (1) -
18:42 Touhou: you need to make it consistent
18:42 Touhou: yes i can see that
18:42 Touhou: that's why we use a new combo
18:42 Touhou: but the lyyyyy is long
18:43 kolgar: no
18:43 kolgar: the ly is short
18:43 kolgar: stacato style
18:43 Touhou: the ly ends here
18:43 Touhou: 00:40:648 (1) -
18:43 Touhou: this is where the yyyy ends
18:43 Touhou: exactly at the next word
18:43 kolgar: 25% ensured me you are right)
18:43 kolgar: ok now i understand
18:44 Touhou: it's ok lol
18:44 Touhou: this is something modders may argue about too
18:44 Touhou: and I'm not even active in the modding scene
18:44 kolgar: well, who is
18:44 Touhou: some people are
18:44 Touhou: they rather mod than map
18:44 Touhou: anyway, let's continue
18:45 Touhou: let's do the whole part between the second kiai
18:45 kolgar: yeah that would be good
18:45 kolgar: ok
18:45 Touhou: you know what to do now
18:45 Touhou: delete all
18:45 Touhou: xd
18:45 Touhou: 00:41:600 - 00:56:822 -
18:45 kolgar: i wont delete what you sent me though
18:45 Touhou: yeah
18:45 Touhou: i send you the time
18:45 Touhou: of start and ending
18:45 Touhou: click on it and delete everything between
18:46 kolgar: i mean
18:46 Touhou: oh i see what you mean
18:46 Touhou: the first thing we did
18:46 Touhou: well you can delete it too
18:46 kolgar: you sent me a pattern that ends00:48:707 -
18:46 kolgar: ok
18:46 Touhou: and try to find it on your own
18:46 Touhou: it helps for practice
18:46 kolgar: ok
18:46 Touhou: btw
18:47 Touhou: once you changed all object to the right ones
18:47 Touhou: and apply some nice looking patterns
18:47 Touhou: people will be impressed what a good first map you have
18:47 Touhou: :p
18:47 kolgar:
D
18:47 Touhou: but don't worry about patterns now
18:47 Touhou: patterns take a lot of time
18:48 Touhou: and if you need to remove one circle
18:48 Touhou: the whole pattern mostly falls apart
18:48 Touhou: and needs reworking
18:48 Touhou: and some patterns are even chained together
18:48 Touhou: making it a real pain to fix
18:48 Touhou: that's why you should do that after you got every right object on the screen
18:48 Touhou: and correct combos
18:49 Touhou: (do you see now what i meant with, this wont be a normal mod at the start of the conversation? XD)
18:49 kolgar:
18:49 Touhou: because a normal mod would confuse you
18:49 Touhou: if i write it all down
18:49 Touhou: without letting you try on your own etc
18:51 Touhou: okay, you finish that part then i'll check what you did
18:51 Touhou: after that the rest of the map is for you to change alone
18:51 Touhou: just apply what you learned now xd
18:51 kolgar: ok
18:58 kolgar:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5235791 http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/5235798 https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/523580418:59 Touhou: upload changes
18:59 Touhou: even if the patterns are not done
18:59 Touhou: lol
18:59 Touhou: that's what i always do
18:59 kolgar: ok....
19:00 Touhou: just call it far "work in progress" or something
19:00 Touhou: idk
19:00 Touhou: ok looking at changesw
19:01 Touhou: 00:41:600 (1,2) -
19:01 Touhou: i would make a long slider here
19:01 Touhou: ending on the white tick (1/1)
19:01 Touhou: and having a circle on the red tick
19:01 kolgar: i would not
19:01 kolgar: whilst the vocals are louder than anything else here
19:01 Touhou: true
19:02 Touhou: but the guitars are comming through quite loudly
19:02 Touhou: that's what i meant earlier with long vocals
19:02 kolgar: i dont hear them in that part
19:02 Touhou: where you start the vocal but then continue with the instrument
19:02 kolgar: ok
19:02 Touhou:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/523583219:02 Touhou: try this
19:03 Touhou: then tell me if you still disagree
19:03 Touhou: pay attention to the guitar too
19:04 kolgar: ok i agree with the two sliders 00:42:551 (1,2) - but disagree with the part afterwards
19:05 kolgar: i think having a singletap session i ok there
19:05 Touhou: yeah it would be okay
19:05 Touhou: the drums support the singletaps
19:05 Touhou: but the player would expect to play to the loud guitar
19:05 Touhou: which is held
19:05 Touhou: you can make circles too
19:05 Touhou: both are fine imo
19:06 kolgar: this part would be unexpectively slow if there was a long slider imo
19:06 Touhou: if you want the map to melodic and lively, map to vocals and guitar
19:06 kolgar: like the player played a fast part
19:06 Touhou: if you want a static map, map to drums
19:06 Touhou: best thing would be to combine both
19:07 kolgar: well in this case...
19:07 Touhou: you have to keep in mind, that this is right after the kiai
19:07 Touhou: meaning the intense parts are already over
19:07 Touhou: and a new kiai is about to appear soon
19:07 kolgar: yeah you are right
19:07 Touhou: if you make it singletap heavy, the kiai part will feel just the same
19:07 Touhou: and it's a bit boring
19:07 kolgar: definitely better to go slow
19:07 Touhou: you can add contrast and make the kiai much more powerful with having a slow part
19:08 Touhou: it will slowly build up and then end in the kiai
19:08 Touhou: hope it makes sense what i tried to say
19:08 Touhou: lol
19:08 kolgar: yeah it does
19:08 Touhou: i got a graph that i made a while ago
19:08 Touhou: take a look
19:08 kolgar: making higher difference between kiai and other parts is better
19:09 kolgar: i agree
19:09 Touhou: trying to find the picture
19:09 Touhou: 1 sec
19:09 kolgar: ok brb toilet
19:10 kolgar: ok i am here
19:11 Touhou:
http://puu.sh/nrpKF/bf1eaf1d02.jpg19:12 Touhou: since i had no music lessons
19:12 Touhou: i wrote things like "greeting" xd
19:12 Touhou: i mean by that, it's a preview for the song
19:12 kolgar: that is pretty accurate name
19:13 Touhou: please look at the graph
19:13 Touhou: as you can see
19:13 Touhou: some parts are slow and some parts are fast
19:13 Touhou: that's what makes a map fun
19:13 Touhou: try to implement that
19:13 Touhou: you can even reduce slider speed or increase slider speed
19:13 Touhou: i personally use 10% faster sliders during kiai
19:13 Touhou: and 10% slower sliders during the slow parts
19:13 kolgar: i use 1.15 in kiai
19:13 Touhou: nice
19:14 kolgar: did not use slow in slow parts though
19:14 Touhou: i would suggest
19:14 Touhou: to look for 3 parts of the song
19:14 Touhou: slow, normal and kiai
19:14 kolgar: ok that makes sense
19:14 Touhou: to spice it up
19:14 Touhou: because having one and the same pace all the time
19:14 Touhou: is just boring
19:14 Touhou: lol
19:14 Touhou: save the picture i send
19:14 Touhou:
http://puu.sh/nrpKF/bf1eaf1d02.jpg19:14 kolgar: yeah that comes up true
19:15 Touhou: you can see where the kiai is
19:15 Touhou: most songs are build similar i've noticed
19:15 kolgar: not most
19:15 Touhou: well it depends on genre
19:15 Touhou: atleast music i like shows similarities
19:15 kolgar: pop/rock and overall vocal genred songs have these
19:16 Touhou: like i said, i didn't have music class
19:16 Touhou: xd
19:16 kolgar: this aint music class
19:16 kolgar: this is constant years of music
19:16 kolgar: puberty
19:16 kolgar: changing genres
19:16 kolgar: this makes it usually
19:18 Touhou: hmm
19:18 kolgar: can we move on if there is more?
19:18 Touhou: i want to say something about spacing before i forget
19:18 kolgar: go on
19:19 Touhou: how far you put circles away and how big or small the angle of the cursor turn has to be
19:19 Touhou: depends on the intensity of the part you're mapping and the intensity of the object itself
19:19 Touhou: meaning, if you have a really loud drum hit during the kiai
19:20 Touhou: that circle should be further away than the rest
19:20 Touhou: and the angle can be more difficult to aim
19:20 kolgar: sure, i have read this before in the other mods
19:20 Touhou: when you have a new combo for instance
19:20 Touhou: the first circle of the new combo is usually quite loud
19:20 Touhou: meaning you can build in a small jump in there
19:20 Touhou: it will feel natural to play and fit the map
19:21 Touhou: while spicing the map
19:21 Touhou: that's what you want in general
19:21 Touhou: for a fun map
19:21 kolgar: ok i understand
19:21 Touhou: do you know about slider leniency already?
19:21 Touhou: and flow?
19:21 Touhou: it's important
19:21 kolgar: heard it maybe misunderstood
19:21 Touhou: okay np
19:22 Touhou: let me find it
19:22 Touhou: 1 sec
19:22 Touhou:
https://i.ppy.sh/32f3071d5b92d702a5c719 ... 372e6a706719:22 Touhou:
https://i.ppy.sh/53fa828d4650137e03df6f ... 312e6a706719:23 Touhou:
https://i.ppy.sh/2db3b2ac5786f26cc32cea ... 392e6a706719:23 Touhou: mapping combines music, art and mathematics
19:23 kolgar: ok
19:23 kolgar: this might explain something
19:23 Touhou: slider leniency means
19:23 kolgar: i would not say maths
19:23 kolgar: but geometry
19:24 Touhou: that sliders don't have to be finished
19:24 kolgar: two seperate things
19:24 Touhou: players do not drag to the end
19:24 kolgar: yeah
19:24 Touhou: they mostly jump of the slider as soon as they can
19:24 Touhou: so keep that in mind
19:24 kolgar: unluckily i dont do this
19:24 Touhou: when you make patterns
19:24 Touhou: it's fine
19:24 Touhou: it's good that you learn
19:24 Touhou: what you didn't do
19:24 Touhou: that improves your skills a lot
19:25 Touhou: one last picture
19:25 Touhou:
http://66.media.tumblr.com/f9d97bfa3e85 ... qz4rgp.png19:25 Touhou: the green lines are flow
19:25 Touhou: flow is hard to define
19:25 Touhou: i would say: "flow determines how smooth the transition between circles and patterns are"
19:26 kolgar: i would define it as the highest possible movement of the player's cursor
19:26 kolgar: for each object
19:26 Touhou: em
19:27 Touhou: maybe worded poorly
19:27 kolgar: well that is what i see on the pictures
19:27 Touhou: i think of flow as of "feels good to play "
19:27 Touhou: having a sudden turn makes it unpleasant to aim
19:27 kolgar: yeah
19:27 Touhou: and feels a bit cluncky
19:27 Touhou: making it not fun to play
19:27 Touhou: but it can fit!
19:27 Touhou: if you have a part in the music
19:27 Touhou: that allows a change in direction or something
19:28 Touhou:
t/8632919:28 Touhou:
https://osu.ppy.sh/news/6133426694119:28 kolgar: ? i think you are getting a bit deeper than i can yet
19:28 Touhou:
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Beatmapping19:28 Touhou:
t/239778/19:28 Touhou: please read those
19:29 Touhou: i will go to eat and I'm back in about 30 minutes
19:29 kolgar:
DDD
19:29 Touhou: can you read that end type in everything you learned?
19:29 Touhou: so that i can see what you understood ?
19:29 kolgar: what?
19:29 Touhou: only things you didn't know yet
19:29 kolgar: ok
19:29 Touhou: read, and tell me what you could learn from the post
19:29 Touhou: i'm curious how helpful they are
19:30 kolgar: ok
19:30 Touhou: because they helped me a lot
19:30 Touhou: please read all of the posts, lol
19:30 Touhou: it's worth it, i promise
19:30 kolgar: yeah sure
19:30 Touhou: ok brb 30mins
19:30 kolgar: hopefully
19:30 Touhou: enjoy
19:30 kolgar: cya
19:52 Touhou: wot
19:52 Touhou: I'm back
19:52 kolgar: oh
19:52 kolgar: reading the last article
19:52 Touhou: had some nice cheese with bread and wine
19:52 kolgar: oh come on
19:52 Touhou:
19:52 kolgar: you are making me hungry
19:52 Touhou: ok finish that article
19:52 Touhou: and then let's discuss itr
19:55 kolgar: ok
19:55 kolgar: i think i have got it
19:56 Touhou: that was a lot wasn't it
19:56 Touhou: xd
19:56 kolgar: so about the osu!wiki post, i have read it before
19:56 kolgar: yeah that sure was
19:56 Touhou: but was it worth it?
19:56 Touhou: you tell me!
19:56 kolgar: well
19:56 kolgar: atm it is
19:56 kolgar: i hope it will be even tomorrow
19:57 kolgar: because today i am becoming too tired to do all
19:57 Touhou: yeah ofc
19:57 kolgar: about the flow:
19:57 kolgar: i never really followed it so that is something new
19:58 kolgar: about the leniency:
19:58 kolgar: yeah i knew about it and did some basic patterns using it
19:58 kolgar: about the Jenny post:
19:58 kolgar: seems legit i guess?
19:59 kolgar: like yes i understand
19:59 kolgar: still dunno how to take it
20:00 Touhou: you will remember those posts
20:00 Touhou: as you have parts where you're not sure what to do
20:00 Touhou: so dw
20:01 kolgar: i am sure there is no way i am going to memorize even 75% of what is important there soon
20:01 kolgar: will take time
20:01 kolgar: but hopefully help
20:03 kolgar: ok i think i am done for today, so is there anymore you wanna tell me?
20:03 Touhou: well I need to see your updated map first
20:03 Touhou: so i guess not
20:03 Touhou: just PM me again once you reworked everything
20:03 Touhou: and then i will do one of these "normal mods" where i just point out what to fix i guess
20:03 kolgar: ok, hopefully it will be soon
20:04 kolgar: i look forward to it, bye