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Score V2; Poll

posted
Total Posts
119

What's your opinion on Score V2?

I don't like it; the current PP system is fine as it is.
1423
62.49%
I think it should be modified before it's released (post how you think it should be changed below)
353
15.50%
I like it; it should be implemented how it is now.
501
22.00%
Total votes: 2277
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chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
I like it from a play perspective but not from a what it will probably do to mapping perspective. I think toy's response on his ask.fm does an adequate job or describing my position so instead of typing out 80% of what he said just gonna post the link instead:
https://ask.fm/Toybickler/answers/136307374973

Anyone who says that "people are only opposed to it because they don't want to acc sliders" is fucking retarded though.
Ted_the_red
142 posts
Joined September 2013
Ted_the_red
Overall I like scorev2, but I'm not fond of the score cap of 1,000,000 mainly because I farm ranked score, so I may be a little biased. However, I think from a game play perspective capped score makes sense because it's a whole lot easier to compare scores from different maps.
vsprite
369 posts
Joined January 2014
vsprite
mad cus bad

who gives a fuck if the mapping style changes, some of these autistic mappers have already tainted the game with terrible maps
Last edited by vsprite , edited 1 time in total.
vsprite
369 posts
Joined January 2014
vsprite
"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything." ~George Bernard Shaw
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

vsprite wrote:

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything." ~George Bernard Shaw
yes, but change does not always mean progress.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

GhostFrog wrote:

Make max score scale with number of objects or something. Also, the poll options are silly, considering that I really doubt this change is being made to fix pp.
B1rd likes to decide things through polls.
vsprite
369 posts
Joined January 2014
vsprite

winber1 wrote:

vsprite wrote:

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything." ~George Bernard Shaw
yes, but change does not always mean progress.
/s
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
Like whos bright idea was it to ban marijuana? :(
7ambda
2,560 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda
Just remove the score cap, and have your score go down every time your acc drops.
Mofu kun
1,500 posts
Joined September 2013
Mofu kun
Personally, i currently believe that peppy shouldn't change what isn't broken.

Now, whether it is 'broken' or not is up for a lot of debate.
deletemyaccount
730 posts
Joined May 2013
deletemyaccount
The main issue that I (and I assume most people) have with these changes is how they limit mapping and creativity.

From a gameplay perspective however, doesn't adding higher OD to sliders just increase the skill ceiling of the game? This doesn't really seem like a really bad thing tbh. As for score v2, as long as tweaks are made in order to weight aim and accuracy proportionately, I don't really see an issue either. Don't get me wrong, score v2 WILL change the game significantly. Regardless, most people will get used to it after a while.

But... why?

Why make these changes now?

That's my main issue with score v2 really. The game is already established and the community has already ingrained their own attitude towards mapping and gameplay. It honestly does seem quite short sighted to me that these changes are being made without much dialogue from the mapping community; the people who actually produce the fuel for which osu! runs on.
N0thing
104 posts
Joined October 2015
N0thing
If you ask me: I don't even really understand it. 1 mil score cap? Why the hell should we restrict the amount of points avaible at the end? Who the hell would then play marathons if you can max get 1 mil score (just like in any other map) And also to the 70% combo /10 + something and 30% acc
May I ask, why you need to put accuracy in it again? After all: Accuracy is already implemented. if you hit a circle and get 300 points, then you get 300 points. No need to get 300 points (example) twice.
honestly: Yes, the pp system needs to be changed. But not into something worser which includes options which don't make any sense.

And regarding the sliders: I'm finewith it. But what I'm not fine with is that you then will never know when you actually did sliderbreak just by looking. I tend to ignore the sliderbreaks (I think this is also removeable with skin). But with this I need to put it in. And I just hate that sound. Maybe change colors for the sliderbreak 100?

As I said, I don't really understand it, else I wouldn't write that confusing.

E:to points: and where would be cookiezi for example after he S'd Everything will Freeze. it were a whopping 40 mil or above. if you can then only get 1 mil, then the mappers will only focus on 1 mil. and that sucks, since some people like long maps. Generally are long maps the best way to improve stamina

E: thought that pp system would change accordingly to Score V2. it's not, so... score system is something in which I think it doesn't need to be changed. I never thought about it before, but score is Combo x Circle and add everything together, isn't it? if so, then it's fine. Why do you need to make it complicated
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Just my curiosity - o!mania overjoy marathons are also capped in 1kk score like iirc other maps?
Pituophis
859 posts
Joined January 2015
Pituophis
I agree with it minus the score cap. Score cap is dumb
Potsu
6 posts
Joined February 2016
Potsu
I think people are misinterpreting the score cap.

The cap is 1mm (million). That means every single song played 100% perfectly will give you a score of 1mm (plus modifiers, plus spinner score).

Every song played perfectly with one note missed at the start will give you less than 1mil (if no mods or spinners) but depending on the amount of notes in the song the difference between the score and 1mm will be larger or smaller. Songs with a lot of notes will have a higher score than songs with fewer notes for example.

Full combo still matters since as you go up in combo each note hit is worth more than the last in a quadratically increasing manner just that the amount of score you get is normalized to 70% of 1million for a full combo.

If you played a marathon song today that has 2000 notes your score would be pretty gigantic. The only difference the score cap does is normalize the maximum score to 1mm. Due to the weighting of combo (70% of score) and acc (30% of score) you can't directly compare scorev1 to scorev2. You can make scenarios where you could compare them though. If (pretend fail is off but no 0.5 modifier to score) you had a long map with 1000 notes and compared the ratio (low score divided by high score) of a 100% score to a 100% score that missed the first 50% of the notes, the scorev1 and scorev2 ratios would be the same minus some rounding error.

I wouldn't say the score is capped to 1 million but rather that your final score is normalized to 1 million. Relatively and proprotionally unnormalized vs normalized numbers remain the same.


Let me know if I've misinterpreted the scoring system though I only gave it a cursory read from the first post here (t/375428)
Last edited by Potsu , edited 1 time in total.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Yeah but a change to a scoring system like that makes no sense in singleplayer
Potsu
6 posts
Joined February 2016
Potsu
Yeah changing the score system at this point in time with no way to accurately convert existing scores seems pretty useless/controversial.
Ignitorex
6 posts
Joined August 2013
Ignitorex
Please just keep the game the way it is :/. There is no point AT ALL in fixing something that isn't broke. People have worked so hard to get all the scores they have got up to this point and love the game the way it is. If everything changed this much a lot of people might quit and never come back , would that be good for the game? no it would not........
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Ignitorex wrote:

There is no point AT ALL in fixing something that isn't broke.
On the contrary. It's been broken since the beginning (osu! was based off of a non-competitive portable rhythm game, after all); the biggest reason a Score V2 hasn't happened yet is because a score wipe would devastate the community. But with osu!next just around the corner, it makes at least some sense for the developer(s) to think about revamping the game's fundamentals again, however controversial it may seem.

---

As for the current state of Score V2 itself, I do think it might need a bit more thought in terms of its implementation. I'm all for the addition of accuracy-based sliders into the game and the higher skill ceiling it will provide (despite how much of an influence the current system's flaws have made on modern mapping styles), but there has to be a better way to implement it instead of the current plan of only applying it to new maps.

In my opinion, I think the implementation should be something like the Beatmania IIDX's Expert-Score system (in that the old score system stays in the game as a secondary display despite having no direct competitive relevance), while older scores should have their "Score V2" value calculated based on the lowest possible value given the limited amount of information that is still saved on the server (or better yet, have them recalculated using a replay if available). That way, older scores aren't worthless, Ranked Score players can still be happy with their Score V1 metric, and PP players are encouraged to improve their old achievements if they want them to stay relevant. From my perspective, everyone wins.

And seeing as plenty of other rhythm games already have some sort of scorecap implemented already, I wouldn't be totally against that idea. But I think the idea would be more appealing to people if it was based off of hitobject count rather than a flat cap of 10 million. Just my two cents.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Score right now is already based off of hit object count. 8-)
Jellyfish McGub
220 posts
Joined November 2014
Jellyfish McGub
i think play more should be developed into score v2
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Khelly wrote:

Score right now is already based off of hit object count. 8-)
But it's exponential... Even if sliders were made accuracy-based, your accuracy will still be pretty worthless with the current system.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

YayMii wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Score right now is already based off of hit object count. 8-)
But it's exponential... Even if sliders were made accuracy-based, your accuracy will still be pretty worthless with the current system.
Accuracy is pretty OP at high combos just talking about score because every 100 you get is 1/3 of what you could get?
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

Khelly wrote:

Accuracy is pretty OP at high combos just talking about score because every 100 you get is 1/3 of what you could get?
Perhaps "worthless" was a bad term to describe it... But accuracy being "OP at high combos" is part of the issue.

With the current system, you could get a handful of 100s near the beginning of a map and still get a higher score than someone who got a single 100 near the end. This makes it incredibly punishing for anyone who has a high accuracy and just happens to make a small fumble. While I understand this would encourage maps to get more difficult as it progresses, I would still rather have accuracy and combo be kept as separate metrics. Not just to make late-map chokes less frustrating, but also to allow for a greater variety when it comes to how difficulty is distributed throughout a map.

It might also be worth keeping in mind that the current PP system doesn't really care where you got your 50s and 100s (it only cares about the amount), so this score mechanic is already kinda irrelevant.
Cra Dow
203 posts
Joined February 2015
Cra Dow
I agree with anything on standard except this: with the right timing window I think slider end timing should count and if not 300 standard should have 200 for no combo break on sliders.
On mania 50 and 100 should count as combo break, because mania is all about the accuracy.
7ambda
2,560 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda

Cra Dow wrote:

I agree with anything on standard except this: with the right timing window I think slider end timing should count and if not 300 standard should have 200 for no combo break on sliders.
On mania 50 and 100 should count as combo break, because mania is all about the accuracy.
That's essentially forcing players to max combo in order to guarantee fc, which would ruin technical and wub wub maps.
Drowned Crow
84 posts
Joined May 2013
Drowned Crow
Score V2 = Me quitting osu simple
Last edited by [deleted user] , edited 1 time in total.
Flamenco
44 posts
Joined September 2015
Flamenco
Same, I wonder how anyone could even come up with such a ridicoulus decission...
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
B1rd
Seems a lot of people share my opinion. If score v2 replaced our current system, I'd consider quitting too. After all, 1000 hours of play down the drain once score is obsolete.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
I doubt that they'd be able to make the switch without carrying over old scores somehow... otherwise they'd be alienating most of the community.

As I see it, scorev2 has already been implemented as a mod on the cutting-edge client (and also is the only score system built into the brand new client they're working on). Since per-mod leaderboards have also been added to the game recently (with only the highest PP-weighted score per map being included in your rank), the new scores can simply be stored separate from the old scores and weighed together once the system becomes ranked.
Then it's just a matter of how they'll weigh the old scores in PP, which could be as simple as assigning a preset slider accuracy value to all of the scores that were made in the old system (who knows).
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 4 times in total.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

B1rd wrote:

Seems a lot of people share my opinion. If score v2 replaced our current system, I'd consider quitting too. After all, 1000 hours of play down the drain once score is obsolete.
You haven't even fc'd every single ranked map to date. They have no way of recalculating all the scores and they aren't going to wipe all the scoreboards. So you are forced to only play the ranked maps ranked prior to the change if you want to make meaningful gains in the score rankings? How is that any different from people who play for pp who are forced to play bullshit spike maps to make meaningful gains in the pp rankings? Get over yourself. Stop letting some arbitrary number on your profile control your life.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Give people separated ladder for ScoreV2 with ability to gain PP from maps.

Score multiplier: 1.0
PP wise - applies all SV2 rules

Who wants to play SV2 will play it and get pp from maps, who doesn't - fuck it, let them cry over slider maps, technical maps and any other like that not giving pp.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
^The problem with separated PP ladders is that it'll force the community to fragment (which is honestly quite not a good idea if you consider the fact that in the end, everyone's playing the same game).

They've already put in a way to store the V1 and V2 scores separately, so the only sensible thing that they can do is to let PP calculate the scores into the same ladder.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
^The problem with separated PP ladders is that it'll force the community to fragment (which is honestly quite not a good idea if you consider the fact that in the end, everyone's playing the same game).
Community is already splited between people who wants SV2 and who doesn't want it. Adding additional ladder for SV2 will just allow people who wants it to gain pp. I doubt you can put scores with 2 different calculation algorithms in same ladder.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

[Taiga] wrote:

^The problem with separated PP ladders is that it'll force the community to fragment (which is honestly quite not a good idea if you consider the fact that in the end, everyone's playing the same game).
Community is already splited between people who wants SV2 and who doesn't want it. Adding additional ladder for SV2 will just allow people who wants it to gain pp. I doubt you can put scores with 2 different calculation algorithms in same ladder.
PP calculation doesn't even account for scoreV1 anyways. The only thing separating the two PP-wise is slider accuracy, and that's not really much of a barrier to deal with (calculation-wise). As I said, they could easily just slap a slider-accuracy bonus to the algorithm and the ranking system could carry on as-is. Obviously they wouldn't be directly comparable score-wise, but we're talking about PP here.

In the end, ScoreV2 is coming whether everyone likes it or not. The transition period is sure to make plenty of people butthurt, but it definitely would not result in a leaderboard wipe.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
Topic Starter
B1rd

chainpullz wrote:

You haven't even fc'd every single ranked map to date. They have no way of recalculating all the scores and they aren't going to wipe all the scoreboards. So you are forced to only play the ranked maps ranked prior to the change if you want to make meaningful gains in the score rankings? How is that any different from people who play for pp who are forced to play bullshit spike maps to make meaningful gains in the pp rankings? Get over yourself. Stop letting some arbitrary number on your profile control your life.
OK, how would you like it if we got rid of pp on all new maps, huh? After all, it's just an arbitrary number, right? Why does it matter if your preferred way to play the game to relegated into obsolescence because new maps have a change in score calculation for no discernible reason? Creating a divide between new maps and old maps is completely stupid, there is not justification to change the system so the arbitrary numbers are calculated in a way that you and a few others like, while shafting and alienating all of the people who have played and worked on getting achievements in the current system.

We can see in the poll that less than a quarter of the people want this new change. Therefore, there should be no change. If there is, they should just do what Runescape did, and let us play 'old' osu!.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
Considering 80% of the maps I play are unranked and thus give neither score nor pp I really wouldn't care.
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii
There won't be a divide between old maps and new maps, because the recent updates suggest that ScoreV2 is happening to the entire game. And the reason why it's happening now is because osu!'s currently undergoing a complete overhaul (new website, new client, new design). With the game being recreated from scratch, it makes sense for them to (attempt to) fix things that would've been very difficult to change otherwise. The game is 10 years old, after all.

But as I've said earlier, they've already begun putting in the framework to allow the current client to transition into ScoreV2 without needing to wipe any old scores. If you consider the fact that the PP system has already completely ignored the current score system for years, this change won't even be that big of a deal to the majority of players.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
PP calculation doesn't even account for scoreV1 anyways. The only thing separating the two PP-wise is slider accuracy, and that's not really much of a barrier to deal with (calculation-wise). As I said, they could easily just slap a slider-accuracy bonus to the algorithm and the ranking system could carry on as-is. Obviously they wouldn't be directly comparable score-wise, but we're talking about PP here.

In the end, ScoreV2 is coming whether everyone likes it or not. The transition period is sure to make plenty of people butthurt, but it definitely would not result in a leaderboard wipe.
Yes, I fully agree but I am talking in case where SV2 could give pp. Separate ladder could be good due score difference allowing people to still fight for #1 and not be "Supporter Only".

You don't change fact that community is already divided between people who hit 100-50 on sliders and expect it to be 300 and people who hit 300 on sliders and would love them to give pp.
Osten
67 posts
Joined May 2014
Osten

N0thingSpecial wrote:

is there an option called I don't care
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