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ScoreV2 will probably be implemented in solo mode

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Kunino Sagiri

CXu wrote:

I fail to see the problem attaching slider accuracy to a mod, similar to how HD alters visuals or DT alters speed, this one just alters slider accuracy so it matters
.
So how is it fair that I'll get a score multiplier with Slider Acc Mod (SAM) turned on in a map/diff with zero to few (few is subjective) sliders regardless of star rating? Or would everyone turn it on? That leaderboard would be dirty and we'd get memes like "Oh no, I forgot to turn on SAM to get that hard pp xddddd"

We obviously won't get a rule to the minimum amount of sliders a diff should have before a player can turn it on so enlighten me if there's a rule that's forbidding a mapper to never rank maps with """"bad"""" (bad is subjective) circles to sliders ratio. All mods right now have uniform score multipliers and that is included in their identity as a mod so I don't think even a varying score multiplier for SAM (which is also impossible to do) would make it viable.
gregest
tbh after thinking about the score wipe, it might be pretty goddamn fun right after the wipe because everyone will be trying to get ranks as fast as possible so they can enjoy being 1 digit for few minutes xd
E m i

CptBlackBird wrote:

tbh after thinking about the score wipe, it might be pretty goddamn fun right after the wipe because everyone will be trying to get ranks as fast as possible so they can enjoy being 1 digit for few minutes xd
o yes yes
i will play ss only give me the score wipe
unless it's wipe all non-top250 scores ;w; (fuck you hidden)
Saphirshroom

Momiji wrote:

B1rd wrote:

There is no such thing as luck in osu!.
>what's probability
Yeah, because probability automatically introduces luck.

Luck is external. You can't control it. When you miss with a certain probability it's your own fault, unless a meteor crashes into your screen.
-Makishima S-
unless a meteor crashes into your screen.
I missed because dinosaur walked pretty loudly in my garden and i didn't heard the beat 8-)
Saphirshroom

[Taiga] wrote:

unless a meteor crashes into your screen.
I missed because dinosaur walked pretty loudly in my garden and i didn't heard the beat 8-)
That always throws me off :(
N0thingSpecial

[Taiga] wrote:

unless a meteor crashes into your screen.
I missed because dinosaur walked pretty loudly in my garden and i didn't heard the beat 8-)
HA U SUCK
Lambykinz
So how would this affect someone like me, a mostly casual player who just wants to improve at the game gradually? Because right now it just seems like it's just another way to calculate the score and I'm like "ok, whatever. i just want to play"
Mahogany
Well it fundamentally affects how the game plays so that
DeathHydra

Lambykinz wrote:

So how would this affect someone like me, a mostly casual player who just wants to improve at the game gradually? Because right now it just seems like it's just another way to calculate the score and I'm like "ok, whatever. i just want to play"
Instead of just clicking circles to the beat, now you have to click circles and sliders to the beat.
bulli
I'm looking forward to this change.
I have no idea, why people complain about difficulty. And I have also no idea why this should change anything in mapping.
If you watch a replay of a player who is really good in acc, he is already in time on most of the sliders.
Sure, maps like Scarlet Rose will become more difficult, but this would also just fit better to the current pp system (176pp for SS on Scarlet Rose).

Just map, as you mapped before. I don't think there will be a problem.
I really think, it is possible to get a SS in every ranked map (if it is not really, really old) either with the current system or with scoreV2.

I don't know, if the spinner bonus will be the same as in the current system? (I hope not)

Oh, besides.. I would prefer scoreV2. Also in the scoreboards.
gregest

DeathAdderz wrote:

Lambykinz wrote:

So how would this affect someone like me, a mostly casual player who just wants to improve at the game gradually? Because right now it just seems like it's just another way to calculate the score and I'm like "ok, whatever. i just want to play"
Instead of just clicking circles to the beat, now you have to click circles and sliders to the beat.
CLICK THE CIRCLES.... and sliders?...

TO THE BEAT

CIRCLES... and sliders
E m i

Saphirshroom wrote:

Momiji wrote:

>what's probability
Yeah, because probability automatically introduces luck.

Luck is external. You can't control it. When you miss with a certain probability it's your own fault, unless a meteor crashes into your screen.
Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it? Not external then, just get better aim, make a better play or something else. Miss less.

Or just pray for a miss placement that takes away as little pp as possible. The pp system is external.
N0thingSpecial

Momiji wrote:

Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?
Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is real
Asaiga

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Momiji wrote:

Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?
Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is real
Just like this update.
gregest

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Momiji wrote:

Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?
Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is real
like our eyes?
Kitsunex

CptBlackBird wrote:

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Momiji wrote:

Probability of missing based on aim skill and difficulty of the pattern/object/whatever, isn't it?

Everything is predetermined by fate and nothing is real

like our eyes?


How can osu! be real if our eyes aren't real?
vsprite
fking gg sloders deferint score v2 gg cant get chalonjour now on osu forver 69 digit rank wtf pepy wy u do dis repotd gg
shiyuri
<deleted>
_koinuri
well I'm kind of late to the map discussion but...

Removing slider leniency will most likely affect mapping. The only reason some jumps and other slider leniency reliant techniques were allowed was because sliders were lenient. Without this leniency, you won't be able to defend your map anymore. QATs and others will start regulating the wide jumps using sliders, because if you can't use circle for it, there's no reason to allow sliders to. People will start modding out 1/4 jumps like this or this and many other big jumps out there. The mappers will be hesitant in using the sliders the same way because they lack leniency. I know I wouldn't place a circle that far apart, so I'm not sure if I'd want to put sliders without leniency that far apart either.

The problem with removing slider leniency doesn't lie on unplayability of the old sliders, but on limiting future creative maps.
ryza

-[Koinuri] wrote:

well I'm kind of late to the map discussion but...

Removing slider leniency will most likely affect mapping. The only reason some jumps and other slider leniency reliant techniques were allowed was because sliders were lenient. Without this leniency, you won't be able to defend your map anymore. QATs and others will start regulating the wide jumps using sliders, because if you can't use circle for it, there's no reason to allow sliders to. People will start modding out 1/4 jumps like this or this and many other big jumps out there. The mappers will be hesitant in using the sliders the same way because they lack leniency. I know I wouldn't place a circle that far apart, so I'm not sure if I'd want to put sliders without leniency that far apart either.

The problem with removing slider leniency doesn't lie on unplayability of the old sliders, but on limiting future creative maps.
The change doesn't remove slider leniency. Slider leniency is a property of the slider end, not the slider start.
DeathHydra

CptBlackBird wrote:

CLICK THE CIRCLES.... and sliders?...

TO THE BEAT

CIRCLES... and sliders
Should change the theme song into nekodex - circles and sliders
Topic Starter
Mofu kun
I'm also curious as to why it was made with only 60% of user agreement on a twitter poll that the majority of osu players probably didn't see.

Another issue with the poll is that it is in no way representative of the entire osu community, just the selects that happened upon the poll. (This issue will either be proven or disproven if actual numbers of the poll come out, but the poll has been deleted.)
Mahogany

bulli wrote:

this would also just fit better to the current pp system (176pp for SS on Scarlet Rose)
Why are we butchering gameplay to fit the ranking system?

PP is absolutely not a factor that should be considered for this change.

Mofu kun wrote:

on a twitter poll
I saw this poll, but was completely unable to vote, as I don't have a twitter account. Are staff trying to hide stuff from us?
C00L
Why force a change on something if its not broken?
_koinuri

Silynn wrote:

The change doesn't remove slider leniency. Slider leniency is a property of the slider end, not the slider start.
I've always called the ability to hit sliders really late/early slider leniency too. Probably should've clarified.

I'll just use this reply to try explaining a bit better using pictures because my English sucks.

This is how the path of the 1/4 jump I linked might look like:
compared to one of the biggest 1/4 jump in the most intense kiai that passes on to circle:
Here's a 1/4 jump with sliders right afterwards for more comparisons:

I think it's pretty clear Skystar increased those spacing in this map only because sliders were lenient. He wouldn't have placed them that far if sliders were as strict as circles. The only reason these large jumps for sliders were allowed to pass was because the receiving end was lenient enough to allow easy 300s on that jump.

And rrtyui, who would've gotten same score on Big Black scorev2, would've also gotten 12 100s instead of 3 on Dopamine, and WWW would've gotten 48 100s + 2 50s instead of 29 100s + 0 50s (There might be some counting errors but it should be around those numbers). Dopamine is a map way more reliant on the leniency due to its complex rhythm and unpredictable spacings. There's no way maps like Dopamine will play the same way on scorev2.
Kunino Sagiri

C00L wrote:

Why force a change on something if its not broken?
HR being equal to HD is way too broken.
DT being lower than HRHD is broken.
Sliders having way too bad pp value is broken. (and it'd still be bad since acc is not even the main issue)
I don't know about the ONE MILLION """"HIGH"""" score but imo it has something to do with spinners currently being too weak and players are already satisfied with getting around 300 rpm or even at least finishing the spinner with zero bonus.
Laura_Bodewig

CptBlackBird wrote:

tbh after thinking about the score wipe, it might be pretty goddamn fun right after the wipe because everyone will be trying to get ranks as fast as possible so they can enjoy being 1 digit for few minutes xd

Because having to replay maps I've already played is fun. Because all my progress meaning nothing is fun. If he score wipes, I'll just stop playing. Hell, I might stop playing once score v2 is forced and the slider changes take effect. A shit ton of good games are coming out this year or are already out that I can devote my time and money to if Peppy decides to force the slider changes.

We'll see what happens in the coming month or so though I suppose.
JappyBabes
Putting this at the top of the post because the amount of straw-man or people that say 'this doesn't really affect me' is sickening. https://ask.fm/AzerFrost/answers/136789314978 I get that Azer is a yes-man when it comes to this sort of shit but don't claim that "this change motivates players to actually learn rhythm and improve their accuracy instead of just complaining that they're gonna lose potential pp from new maps or just straight up quit the game". People that already don't care about accuracy are going to be the same as ever. People that do care about accuracy aren't going around intentionally hitting sliders in the 100 hit window and hitting circles perfectly. There are a ton of other people straw-manning but I figure it helps to put a community figure on blast because it harms legitimate discussion. There are going to be droves of people just parroting what they see because they're too lazy to actually think about how certain changes affect the game or alternative solutions. To the people that post 'this doesn't affect me', it's simple - just don't post. This thread obviously isn't for you if you don't care enough.

Slider accuracy doesn't have the explicit implication of Score V2 (on a side note peppy's claim that 95% of OWC participants were in support of it is a complete fabrication unless he means slider accuracy only - I can definitely see 95% of participants agreeing that slider accuracy should be implemented in SOME way). Let's just look at the possibilities and see how it goes. One thing to mention is that there is no scenario where mapping remains unaffected. Just because you can still technically map in the exact same way it does not mean people will end up doing so. Look at PP v2, the mapping meta has completely changed in direct relation to the update. Modifying one of two possible hitobjects, not counting spinners, is a similarly large change (although I predict it would not have quite the same effect on mapping).

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: Score wipe
Result: Unity but at an unjustifiable price. Loss of slider utilities. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: New maps have Score V2
Result: Difference in old and new is ugly - causes problems with score rank, level etc. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: New maps have slider accuracy
Result: Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Mod regarding slider accuracy
Result: Integrity of old scoreboards is gone. Open to abuse. Why would a user turn it off? Old maps *can* be played the same. Slider utility is maintained. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Editor related change (either a second slider-like hitobject or slider OD setting).
Result: Slider utility is maintained. Old maps play the same. Integrity of scoreboards is maintained. Precedent exists (AR + OD split or decimal values) for changing editor in a way which only affects new maps. Score is consistent. Mapping evolves with more options (most likely for the better). edit: Two of those aren't seamless though. A new hitobject requires thinking about how to differentiate it from current sliders and needs to effectively indicate that to the player although this is binary. Same thing with a checkbox option in the settings - binary. Slider OD being a slider in the song setup > difficulty tab is the last and best option of the three.

It's not that a score wipe or a new mod are bad things. Just that Score V2 or slider accuracy are not big enough changes to justify it. Should be obvious that I'm in favour for slider OD (something like a slider from current behaviour to hit circle behaviour).
Vuelo Eluko
a score wipe would simply be ruinous, no matter what.
B1rd

JappyBabes wrote:

SPOILER
Putting this at the top of the post but the amount of straw-man or people that say 'this doesn't really affect me' is sickening. https://ask.fm/AzerFrost/answers/136789314978 I get that Azer is a yes-man when it comes to this sort of shit but don't claim that "this change motivates players to actually learn rhythm and improve their accuracy instead of just complaining that they're gonna lose potential pp from new maps or just straight up quit the game". People that already don't care about accuracy are going to be the same as ever. People that do care about accuracy aren't going around intentionally hitting sliders in the 100 hit window and hitting circles perfectly. There are a ton of other people straw-manning but I figure it helps to put a community figure on blast because it harms legitimate discussion. There are going to be droves of people just parroting what they see because they're too lazy to actually think about how certain changes affect the game or alternative solutions. To the people that post 'this doesn't affect me', it's simple - just don't post. This thread obviously isn't for you if you don't care enough.

Slider accuracy doesn't have the explicit implication of Score V2 (on a side note peppy's claim that 95% of OWC participants were in support of it is a complete fabrication unless he means slider accuracy only - I can definitely see 95% of participants agreeing that slider accuracy should be implemented in SOME way). Let's just look at the possibilities and see how it goes. One thing to mention is that there is no scenario where mapping remains unaffected. Just because you can still technically map in the exact same way it does not mean people will end up doing so. Look at PP v2, the mapping meta has completely changed in direct relation to the update. Modifying one of two possible hitobjects, not counting spinners, is a similarly large change (although I predict it would not have quite the same effect on mapping).

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: Score wipe
Result: Unity but at an unjustifiable price. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play the same.

Scenario: Score V2 in its entirety
Possible Outcome: New maps have Score V2
Result: Difference in old and new is ugly - causes problems with score rank, level etc. Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: New maps have slider accuracy
Result: Loss of slider utilities. Old maps play differently. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Mod regarding slider accuracy
Result: Integrity of old scoreboards is gone. Open to abuse. Why would a user turn it off? Old maps *can* be played the same. Slider utility is maintained. Score is consistent.

Scenario: Slider accuracy only
Possible Outcome: Editor related change (either a second slider-like hitobject or slider OD setting).
Result: Slider utility is maintained. Old maps play the same. Integrity of scoreboards is maintained. Precedent exists (AR + OD split or decimal values) for changing editor in a way which only affects new maps. Score is consistent. Mapping evolves with more options (most likely for the better).

It's not that a score wipe or a new mod are bad things. Just that Score V2 or slider accuracy are not big enough changes to justify it. Should be obvious that I'm in favour for slider OD (something like a slider from current behaviour to hit circle behaviour).
I agree with this. None of the changes seem reasonable except for a possible slider OD change. And yeah, I disagree with a lot of things Azer says. Having a high rank and Twitch sub count doesn't necessarily make his opinions any more accurate.

It'd be nice if there was actually some dialogue, but peppy just seems to want to steam ahead with these changes and everyone who has a problem be damned. Changes in a game should happen naturally when most people want them, not forced by the dev team while ignoring the complaints of half the community.

Could I have the source where peppy said 95% of tourney players were in agreement with score v2?
JappyBabes

B1rd wrote:

It'd be nice if there was actually some dialogue, but peppy just seems to want to steam ahead with these changes and everyone who has a problem be damned. Changes in a game should happen naturally when most people want them, not forced by the dev team while ignoring the complaints of half the community.

Could I have the source where peppy said 95% of tourney players were in agreement with score v2?
https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704944348501250048 Side note but feel free to ask other people that played or look at the mp links for owc matches, the change from v1 to v2 did not have a meaningful impact nor fulfill the purpose of valuing accuracy to the level it claimed to. Of all the matches I saw, the outcome would have been the same had it been v1 although since I did not watch every match I'm not stupid enough to claim it had zero impact. I personally see no reason why a score-cap needs to be implemented (following other rhythm games is not a logical argument) but even if v2 were to be implemented it needs so much more revision which I haven't seen a mention of but hey I don't read every tweet peppy makes. Maybe he has said something about it.

All of this right after he denounced the ranking criteria changes (council + spread rule) and said that nothing will happen without discussion. So many tweets giving the impression that he is not looking to engage in discussion when it's his idea.
CXu
He later apologized for it btw. https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704960260264427520

It's probably important to know that as well.
winber1

-[Koinuri] wrote:

I think it's pretty clear Skystar increased those spacing in this map only because sliders were lenient. He wouldn't have placed them that far if sliders were as strict as circles. The only reason these large jumps for sliders were allowed to pass was because the receiving end was lenient enough to allow easy 300s on that jump.

And rrtyui, who would've gotten same score on Big Black scorev2, would've also gotten 12 100s instead of 3 on Dopamine, and WWW would've gotten 48 100s + 2 50s instead of 29 100s + 0 50s (There might be some counting errors but it should be around those numbers). Dopamine is a map way more reliant on the leniency due to its complex rhythm and unpredictable spacings. There's no way maps like Dopamine will play the same way on scorev2.
I don't really think skystar thinks too much in terms of "oh I can make this jump really big because it's a slider." Like, hell, most people still accuracy that correctly if it's just one of those slider jumps. When comes to dubsteppy music, then it's the section as a whole that makes rhythm hard, not those jumps in particular, as the difficulty is not the jumps but getting the right rhythm. Secondly, when I map stuff, I literally do not care about oh it's a slider so I can make large spacing. I make spacing because it flows well and fits well imo. Playability comes into play for mapping when outrageously large or outlandish spacing is used.

Of course maps like Dopamine might not be played the same, for the most part those sliders are placed on audible and emphasized beats. Any mapper who knows how to map should put notes on those beats such that this slider accuracy change would not really matter much. It's just pushing, as other have said, osu into a more accuracy driven game, while still maintaining all, if not most, of the aim game. Combo is still important, but it's just adding an extra layer of accuracy. In terms of flow and fun, all of these maps will still be great imo, but it just takes a little more effort on the player's side to get better accuracy, and hopefully pp may one day reflect the difficulty of these types of maps and reward us better for it.
Genki1000
Some questions about new sliders

1. What happens if you get a 50/100 on the slider-head but also miss the slider-end? Do you get a 25? A miss?

2. Wouldn't giving sliders accuracy/pp make this game a bit *too* accuracy-oriented? I keep hearing people say that accuracy gives too much already (i.e. on dt maps).

thanks in advance
-Makishima S-
Just one example what came to my head - rank a map with only few circles and tons of sliders.
For "weird players" who shit on ranking it might be fun and enjoyable map.
For competitive players who only cares about numbers it will shit because literally zero pp from it.
ScoreV2 fix this problem since slider maps will give way more pp.
Yes, i am repeating myself but just putting this here so nobody from competitive don't forget that SV2 will increase your pepe.
_koinuri

winber1 wrote:

I don't really think skystar thinks too much in terms of "oh I can make this jump really big because it's a slider." Like, hell, most people still accuracy that correctly if it's just one of those slider jumps. When comes to dubsteppy music, then it's the section as a whole that makes rhythm hard, not those jumps in particular, as the difficulty is not the jumps but getting the right rhythm. Secondly, when I map stuff, I literally do not care about oh it's a slider so I can make large spacing. I make spacing because it flows well and fits well imo. Playability comes into play for mapping when outrageously large or outlandish spacing is used.

Of course maps like Dopamine might not be played the same, for the most part those sliders are placed on audible and emphasized beats. Any mapper who knows how to map should put notes on those beats such that this slider accuracy change would not really matter much. It's just pushing, as other have said, osu into a more accuracy driven game, while still maintaining all, if not most, of the aim game. Combo is still important, but it's just adding an extra layer of accuracy. In terms of flow and fun, all of these maps will still be great imo, but it just takes a little more effort on the player's side to get better accuracy, and hopefully pp may one day reflect the difficulty of these types of maps and reward us better for it.
I'm pretty sure Skystar does consider slider leniency for spacing. I got most of my style just staring at Skystar and fanzhen maps (didn't make me any good at mapping though).

Take a look at Ame to Asphalt as another example, a non wubby map of his.
Pretty much every circle with 1/4 beat stays under the sliderend or like 90% of it is touching it. Really low spacing. Only exception is the kiai (and that super 1/4 spam in the middle), which makes sense because kiai is supposed to be intense.
But 1/4 jumps on sliders on the other hand, never actually even touch the previous sliderend (I only saw 1 that was stacked to it) and has larger spacing than most, if not all, 1/4 circle jumps in the same section.
Skystar decided that slider leniency is great enough to put them further away solely for aesthetic reason.

Skystar and I can't be the only mappers who considers this kind of thing. You can be really creative with spacings using slider leniency. It has always been around and I'm sure many mappers got accustomed to it.

Basically what I'm saying is "reasonable jumps" might turn into "overmapped jumps" once slider leniency turn off, making some maps be unrankable or heavily modded. That's why I think removing leniency will only make future maps monotonous. As much as I'd love a slider buff since I'm an alternating player who specializes in double BPM and jump maps, as a person who also loves playing creative maps, I don't know if sacrificing that creativity is worth the change.

I mainly wanted to point out the stylistic spacing choice you can make with slider leniency because most people only focuses on the rhythmic side of it. I understand the wub sliders are mostly difficult because of the complex rhythm (I mentioned it a tiny bit in the last paragraph).
winber1

-[Koinuri] wrote:

Basically what I'm saying is "reasonable jumps" might turn into "overmapped jumps" once slider leniency turn off, making some maps be unrankable or heavily modded.
and I was trying to explain this is not even remotely the case. You might be able to say such things about less experienced who will be more inclined to inaccurately hit sliders such as these, but this does not affect how the slider is and should be played in general. Whether or not the slider heavily spaced does not make me decide that I should give myself more leeway and click the hitcircle slightly later than I would normally. If I see a pattern, I will hit it as accurately as possible regardless of where the slider jumps are. In no way did they decrease the leniency of the end of the slider (so you can still clear the slider without completing the whole slider, i.e. kick sliders work fine still).

All I'm saying is that these jumps still do play the same, and all you have to do is accurately hit the next note. The jump from one slider end to another slider start is still the same.

Of course in certain situations, when people have placed sliders on really awkward beats that don't match up to the music that well, accuracy becomes somewhat of an issue. However, the modding process generally should get rid of those weird placements, and there aren't many maps with awkward slider positions. With this addition, I do agree there is a little more to think about when mapping, but it's more hinged on rhythmic understanding rather than distance snapping.
Shajirr
Just noticed DT and NC have the same kind of bonus - what is the point of NC then?
Was it the result of this new score system change or was it always like this?
Yuudachi-kun
The point of nc is to sound funny and make the voices high pitched
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