Hollow wings and some/most skystar maps (neuronecia included) are made to be challenges and not pp farms. How is the change in scoring and slider timing going to prevent creation of maps like these in future? Only thing that changes is that the maps will be harder to acc and will be more rewarding.

Mapping will not change at all, i repeat AT ALL.
You are supposed to click slider in time, just now you didn't got punished for being bad.
After this get implemented, better start training how to click sliders in time.

rrtyui Big Black SS after this change still stay as SS, pepy checked this himself so no, i don't know why you cry about "sliders killed in mapping blablabla", all maps with sliderspam will just get more skillbased, nothing else.

I am personaly happy about this change, now i will enjoy true rhythm game.

And so many newbs spamming & brainless mashing 5* maps will get extremely punished right now, it's just juicy, omnomnomnom

I don't understand these slider changes. Does this mean that , as of right now, it's impossible to get anything other than a 300 on sliderheads?
I didn't even notice while playing.Isn't that a bad thing then?

I don't think slider start matters, if it was slider end then we're fucked

Yes, sliders will only be 100 or 50 if you miss the sliderend and/or sliderticks right now, giving you free accuracy.

Endaris wrote:

No parts of mapping are affected.
Having the player being accurate is ALWAYS the assumption made by the mapper when he maps stuff.
Sliderarts are completely unaffected by this as well, all you have to do as a player is hitting the fucking sliderhead on time.
People will just end up having less acc. That's a playerproblem, not a mapperproblem.

I also expect that the HP-System will be tuned accordingly in the future to make up for the loss of accuracy/Geki, especially in easy parts.

do u know any mapper that actually wants slider change? it kills mapping creativity, new meta is gonna be 0 sliders or od 6 on every map, and maps that could have been ranked then won't be ranked anymore because lolzz sliders are too hard!!!!!! btw mappers collectively put more effort into making this game what it is, and they certainly put more cumulative effort than peppy and his crew ever did. so from peppys business perspective of wanting to make more money with less effort put in, why is he working on something that will make mappers completely unmotivated?? he's literally wasting his time and money

Endaris wrote:

No parts of mapping are affected.
Having the player being accurate is ALWAYS the assumption made by the mapper when he maps stuff.
Sliderarts are completely unaffected by this as well, all you have to do as a player is hitting the fucking sliderhead on time.
People will just end up having less acc. That's a playerproblem, not a mapperproblem.

[Taiga] wrote:

Mapping will not change at all, i repeat AT ALL.
You are supposed to click slider in time, just now you didn't got punished for being bad.
After this get implemented, better start training how to click sliders in time.

holy when people tell me what i should be assuming as a mapper :L unlucky

Militari wrote:

Hollow wings and some/most skystar maps (neuronecia included) are made to be challenges and not pp farms. How is the change in scoring and slider timing going to prevent creation of maps like these in future? Only thing that changes is that the maps will be harder to acc and will be more rewarding.

It doesn't prevent them but they will look a hell of a lot different and likely less interesting. HW and Skystar are not ignorant of slider leniency and make full use of it to enable much more rediculous spacing and crazier patterns without completely ruining playability.

You might say that all this does is make maps harder but the end result won't be that maps are any harder. HW and Skystar maps won't magically go from challenging to stupid difficult. They will simply change their styles to stop using something that no longer exists.

The difficulty ceiling of maps won't be affected because that's kept in check by BN and QAT. The only change will be the difficulty floor. The irony is that the same people who are welcoming this change are the same people bitching about mapping homogenization.

If you think mapping won't change at all as a result of this you clearly don't understand mapping very well. I won't try to explain it in details as mappers like rlc, the people who make maps most affected by this, have already expressed concern at how this limits creativity elsewhere.

TL;DR mappers typically don't map for difficulty or pp. They map what makes sense (to them) and many creative slider uses simply won't make sense anymore.

Edit: speak of the devil lol.

[Taiga] wrote:

Mapping will not change at all, i repeat AT ALL.
You are supposed to click slider in time, just now you didn't got punished for being bad.
After this get implemented, better start training how to click sliders in time.

rrtyui Big Black SS after this change still stay as SS, pepy checked this himself so no, i don't know why you cry about "sliders killed in mapping blablabla", all maps with sliderspam will just get more skillbased, nothing else.

I am personaly happy about this change, now i will enjoy true rhythm game.

And so many newbs spamming & brainless mashing 5* maps will get extremely punished right now, it's just juicy, omnomnomnom

[Taiga], with all due respect, you say this with only 2 graveyarded maps. May I ask what gives you the agency to be able to make these assumptions about mapping?

https://twitter.com/ppy/status/704942553171402757 this made it look like only the slider behaviour will be implemented

So is the complete scorev2 coming or just a portion of it?

I cannot speak for peppy, but my assumption would be that he releases scorev2 incrementally, starting with slider changes.

xlni wrote:

holy when people tell me what i should be assuming as a mapper :L unlucky

Isn't it kind of pointless to even make a map or do a proper timing, hitsounding etc. if you do it under the assumption that the player will generally NOT hit on time?
I think it is.
If you're working in the editor you are mapping a future SS-performance.
Certainly you can take some things in mind for playability and to ease things up but finally your hitplacement will be an accurate one that is supposed to be played exactly like that and the better the player playing your map the closer he will stick to what you mapped.

Maps are designed around first try sight-reading. This also assumes the player has not heard the song.
If the song has a BPM change in it, the player will have to adapt to that change somehow.

Just using circles into a BPM change is unfair, as there's no way the player would see the BPM change coming.
That's why you often see sliders used to ease the transitions.

Here's an example... Imagine if this map was circles only. -> https://osu.ppy.sh/s/65994


Sliders are used when the mapper feels that it's unfair to punish the player for accuracy.
Circles are used when the mapper wants the player to care about accuracy.
The ability to switch between it is very important.

I hope that makes sense.

Endaris wrote:

xlni wrote:

holy when people tell me what i should be assuming as a mapper :L unlucky

Isn't it kind of pointless to even make a map or do a proper timing, hitsounding etc. if you do it under the assumption that the player will generally NOT hit on time?
I think it is.
If you're working in the editor you are mapping a future SS-performance.
Certainly you can take some things in mind for playability and to ease things up but finally your hitplacement will be an accurate one that is supposed to be played exactly like that and the better the player playing your map the closer he will stick to what you mapped.

That's why rrtyui followed every slider to its end on his big black SS when you don't even need to leave the sliderstart to get credit for it right? Man such a shitter not even playing the map right.

Like seriously why are you trying to pretend to understand mapping and claiming to understand it better than one of the best mappers in the history of the game?

Mofu kun wrote:

[Taiga], with all due respect, you say this with only 2 graveyarded maps. May I ask what gives you the agency to be able to make these assumptions about mapping?

You're not that much better than him are you now?

[Taiga] wrote:

rrtyui Big Black SS after this change still stay as SS

I feel like this is only because it is OD 7, if star difficulty system doesn't underweight these 1/4 slider i feel like V2 does have an impact on those type of mapping

chainpullz wrote:

That's why rrtyui followed every slider to its end on his big black SS when you don't even need to leave the sliderstart to get credit for it right? Man such a shitter not even playing the map right.

Like seriously why are you trying to pretend to understand mapping and claiming to understand it better than one of the best mappers in the history of the game?

Slider leniency exists in 2 parts, movement and timing.
Scorev2 only affects timing so why are you attacking me on the movement component now when I never adressed it as nothing changes for it?

You would better spend your time giving examples where timing leniency can actually have a value like Charles did and even for his example I would argue that it might not be the best way to make the player hit off-time to make him aware of a speed change.
And variable bpm maps already work with a significantly lower OD to soften the issue to begin with. Putting aside that I'm not skilled enough to keep up with the crazy jumps in Roze, the accurate timing itself on OD6 is not a real problem from my point of view and on the lower difficulties it is softened further by the slower approach circles.

Endaris wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

That's why rrtyui followed every slider to its end on his big black SS when you don't even need to leave the sliderstart to get credit for it right? Man such a shitter not even playing the map right.

Like seriously why are you trying to pretend to understand mapping and claiming to understand it better than one of the best mappers in the history of the game?

Slider leniency exists in 2 parts, movement and timing.
Scorev2 only affects timing so why are you attacking me on the movement component now when I never adressed it as nothing changes for it?

Uh, timing leniency is movement leniancy. Your argument is analogous to one saying that not following sliders perfectly makes you a bad player. I'm sorry if you are too ignorant to realize this.

So if I hit a slider on time I have to perfectly follow it through?
No.

These are all very good points, mostly the negative ones about mapping.

How about FL players, and people who have put a lot into getting #1s? RIP all those years of work because the system has changed?

FL staying at 1.12, and DT going up to 1.2???

Endaris wrote:

So if I hit a slider on time I have to perfectly follow it through?
No.

Endaris wrote:

hitplacement will be an accurate one that is supposed to be played exactly like that and the better the player playing your map the closer he will stick to what you mapped.

You literally said so yourself but I guess you are too stupid to understand your own argument. Please don't expect people to take you seriously at this point. Yes, this last statement of yours goes beyond the point of mere ignorance and into the realm of stupidity.

I personally don't like the change. How is he going to implement it into the game? Is he just going to make it so newer maps have ScoreV2? If he goes full peppy and puts it on every map including those that already have thousands of scores on them then that would really suck

I played the game for years with the sliders the way they are and I like it that way. Yeah it's easier but there's a lot of weird ass sliders in this game that are practically unfair in their timing if they weren't so lenient, and that allows for more fun maps. I can watch replays of top players and quite easily predict where their slider timing will be 100 because they're used to the game as it is. Not to mention really short sliders will become an even bigger pain in the ass because you already can't hit them late at all.

Awesome! As a new player I was wondering why sliders haven't accuracy judgement. Glad to see the game evolving

Ohrami wrote:

I personally don't like the change. How is he going to implement it into the game? Is he just going to make it so newer maps have ScoreV2? If he goes full peppy and puts it on every map including those that already have thousands of scores on them then that would really suck

Yeah but he's peppy so fuck you.

Literally his response.

Khelly wrote:

Ohrami wrote:

I personally don't like the change. How is he going to implement it into the game? Is he just going to make it so newer maps have ScoreV2? If he goes full peppy and puts it on every map including those that already have thousands of scores on them then that would really suck

Yeah but he's peppy so fuck you.

Literally his response.

you get used to it after playing for so long

chainpullz wrote:

Endaris wrote:

So if I hit a slider on time I have to perfectly follow it through?
No.

Endaris wrote:

hitplacement will be an accurate one that is supposed to be played exactly like that and the better the player playing your map the closer he will stick to what you mapped.

You literally said so yourself but I guess you are too stupid to understand your own argument. Please don't expect people to take you seriously at this point. Yes, this last statement of yours goes beyond the point of mere ignorance and into the realm of stupidity.

Hitplacement can also relate to the timeline but I guess you're too busy to shoot out personal attacks to contextuate things.
Sorry for being relatively bad at english so I can't describe my points as accurately as you or Charles can. It's probably the mainreason why you decide to be a douche and hate the shit out of me.

play more

Endaris wrote:

Hitplacement can also relate to the timeline but I guess you're too busy to shoot out personal attacks to contextuate things.
Sorry for being relatively bad at english so I can't describe my points as accurately as you or Charles can. It's probably the mainreason why you decide to be a douche and hate the shit out of me.

If you're bad at English either find a way to not come off so presumptuous when replying to experts or just don't reply at all. Your reply to rlc can easily be construed as a personal attack on his notions of mapping.

It's well known that exaggerated difficulty in one area of the game (reading/aim/timing etc.) will detract from one's ability to perform in the other areas. In essence, you have to split your focus across the different gameplay aspects. One way that timing lenience falls under the category of movement lenience is that you literally can't hit a circle until you've moved over it. By making timing more lenient you in turn give a player more room to aim. This allows for the use of more exaggerated spacing without inconsistently raising the overall difficulty of a pattern. Thus, in the same way that jumps starting on sliders can be more spaced, jumps ending on sliders can also be more spaced.

To shine a different light on this let's consider instead of removing slider leniency we require all maps be at least cs4. You can make the same arguments "oh man, better get used to playing cs4+", "X players play on Y challenging map would have still been a fc", "Omg, I'm so glad those filthy cs3 players will finally have to learn to play this game xD", "oh man, this is going to be pp heaven for me", etc. But some maps were mapped the way they were because the creator had the option of using lower cs. For instance maps like

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/316018
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/368845

are only mapped as crazy as they are because lower cs gives that kind of freedom. You could map the same objects in the same way with cs4 and the map would play like 10x worse. I doubt HW would have even mapped these if forced to use cs4 because even she has (her own) sense of what is quality and what is not.

I'm sure most people would agree that it's silly to force a mapper to use cs4 because they should have some freedom in what difficulty settings they choose. What most people don't realize is that slider leniency very much plays a similar role in mapping. Styles using lots of sliders don't simply "have lots of sliders" the leniancy part of sliders is what the entire mapping style is based around. Removing the leniency is equivalent to removing the styles altogether.

I honestly don't see why there needs to be a 1,000,000 score cap.

Mofu kun wrote:

[*]Max Score is 1,000,000 plus spinner bonus.
[*]Slider start circles now have accuracy judgement. If you hit them in the 100 or 50 accuracy range, that will cap the maximum score you can get from the slider as a whole.

Disgusting.

Charles445 wrote:

Maps are designed around first try sight-reading. This also assumes the player has not heard the song.

This hasn't been completely true for quite some time. There are plenty of ranked maps with traps and other awkward things that might require multiple playthroughs for most players to understand. It's also a philosophy that's outdated, maps are becoming more complicated and sometimes readibility gets sacrificed for interesting/fun things (note readability and playability are different things).

As to the main point of this post, I don't think introducing slider timing is a bad thing. First off, if your timing is proper, your timing on sliders will almost always be correct as well. Second, this change does not effect slider leniency in the slightest. It might take a bit of testing on scorev2 for people to actually understand this, but just because you can now get 100's on slider starts doesn't actually change the way the sliders play. If you have a spam slider section, or lots of 3/4 sliders, or large jumps off of sliders, the slider leniency still applies. It's just now possible to get bad accuracy on these sections... if you have bad accuracy. But just because someone might get 100's here now, suddenly mappers have to think about that? The ability to play it and keep combo will stay the same, and that should be what's important.

So I think there's a very serious misunderstanding a lot of people are having, that these 100's will somehow be detrimental to the way the map plays. And I think that's not true.

As for slow sections/tempo changes/weird rhythms - I stated at the beginning of my post that I think mapping around sight-reading is outdated and misguided. At least, mapping around sight-read FC's. People expect to grind maps for good scores. It's a part of the game. It's okay to have weird things that people have to figure out in order to get a good score. And once they figure it out, it's not an issue. You can still map these types of sections in the same ways, just now people have to actually learn the rhythms to get a good score instead of mashing through them. Not to mention, sliders can still be used as a way to warn the play the rhythm is changing in a weird way - you will always have perfect accuracy on the slider end and the slider end will tell the player the new rhythm. And more often than not, the slider end is what's telling the player the rhythm is changing - NOT the beginning of it.

And like people have said before, most other rhythm games have hit judgment on every object, and players in those games have been dealing with tempo changes and weird rhythms for a long time. People might say "well those games aren't osu!" and that is correct, but they are very similar in a lot of ways. If it's something people can deal with in those games, why can't players here also deal with it? The answer is they can, actually.

I hope this makes sense. I always worry I'm not able to explain my opinions properly, in a way that other people can understand.

Like I said just don't put this on older maps otherwise the scores would be imbalanced. In this case I doubt most people would care that much even if they consider it annoying. The "slider timing" extension of OD sounds, to me, like a great suggestion, just like the approach rate extension of the original OD.

Oh, the previous title for this was a bit misleading, so i guess they changed it to a more fitting one.

Not a big fan of the score cap, I like having the possibility of reaching big scores if I play well, having them capped would feel unrewarding.
I personally have no strong opinion on the slider change right now though, if it comes down to it I'll just have to get good/better at them depending on how the change affects my play.

Scorecap is retarded. Slider change is slightly less retarded.

Fuck score v2. Fuck it. I complained about it since it was announced but of course my thread was locked before I could do anything about it. Also nice to know that all the time I've spent farming score to get on the leader boards will be completely wasted. Now the whole game will be about acc, yay, because you know hurr durr it's a rhythm name, the name of the genre defines every aspect of how the game must play.

B1rd wrote:

Fuck score v2. Fuck it. I complained about it since it was announced but of course my thread was locked before I could do anything about it. Also nice to know that all the time I've spent farming score to get on the leader boards will be completely wasted. Now the whole game will be about acc, yay, because you know hurr durr it's a rhythm name, the name of the genre defines every aspect of how the game must play.

never forget

The score cap doesn't actually mean much in itself. It just multiplies the score by a beatmap constant so the maximum possible is a fixed number; in the end, it is not different to, say, measuring the mass of something in grams vs measuring in ounces.

The only effect it has in gameplay is changing the relative importance of over-spinning; maybe adjusting the score given by over-spinning based on map length would help to balance things out (each spin gives less points if the beatmap is longer).

Full Tablet wrote:

The score cap doesn't actually mean much in itself. It just multiplies the score by a beatmap constant so the maximum possible is a fixed number; in the end, it is not different to, say, measuring the mass of something in grams vs measuring in ounces.

So, as you say, it doesn't really affect anything either way. So, then, why is it even being changed?

Now 15 minute marathons will be worth as much as 30 second easys? Ranked score will be completely irrelevant. Too bad for people who've spent half a decade farming score, it''ll now be all for nothing.

Also, the SS only players are probably gonna have a really bad day.

The score cap is not needed, in my opinion. What purpose is it actually supposed to serve? What's wrong with the lack of score ceiling?

Unlike many people though, I am excited about the accuracy judgment on sliderstarts.