Just please polish before bubbling
Hahaha yeah, I'll have to fix that! xP
Not just yet haha, Bonsai is still applying for BN~
Xexxar wrote:... You want to bubble this?
Mhm... Congrats on being #2!
Claiming you would bubble this mapper's second beatmap, that is barely even polished? This is a ridiculous statement in my mind to make, as this is nowhere near bubbleable condition. Here are the many reasons why this should not have been a consideration of yours, as I will go on to mention.
Bonsai wrote:Just saying that if I became BN I'd bubble this, let's hope for the best ^^
First of all, "I'd" could also mean "I would" so it means that he might POSSIBLY bubble it. So well, think about what Bonsai could really be saying before blaming him around. He might not bubble it if many people points out mistakes, like your mod, so I'll definitely polish this map a lot before getting it bubbled.
Bonsai wrote:Just saying that if I became BN I'd bubble this, let's hope for the best ^^
Thanks a million for these tips, sure it's a bit too serious but I do see that these constructive criticisms are needed a lot more in the mapping community... (Though it might demotivate many people, and might seriously reduce the amount of map productivity)
Kuki wrote:And to finish it all off, here's some tips (IMO) that i'd like to give you to improve future (and present) maps.
One really good tip I can give you (apart from reusing things to create structure as I mention below) is to reuse placement! If you've put down a few notes, and want to know where to place the next note, put it where one of those notes were! Check some of my maps or relatively any good quality map to see this (and the reusing notes to create structure) method used almost 100% of the time.
I think I implemented this in hard, but yeah I only implemented a bit. I'll think about doing this more often. ^^
I suggest not spending too much time on maps early on. Every map you make will be a significant improvement, but if you stay behind on older maps they can and will stun your improvement and in some cases actually be detrimental to your skill overall. Until you're at a point when you're relatively problem-free (you're looking at six months to a year on average for that to happen, so patience is key) you should just stick to making a full set (or if you want to focus on something in particular, just an easy/normal for example is fine), getting one or constructive two mods, and moving on. You can do whatever you want, I'm not forcing you to do this, but I am letting you know that it is definitely the best way to improve at mapping, and sticking to maps too long will be detrimental to your improvement and your current skill. This is something you should definitely want to do, but again it's your choice boyo.
If I'm problem free I'll make a new map of course, but I still sense a lot of problems, and your mod pretty much proved my thought of that. I'm not going to make a new map as if I still have the same skill and map my new map, the same thing is going to happen to my newer map, so I'll have to reconsider this advice. I'm the type of person that likes to focus on one thing and finish it, so yeah... (This doesn't apply to my previous beatmap though, because I'm not sure that the song could even be made as a beatmap.)
Make sure you consistently check to see if something flows right. If it's comfortable for you, it's comfortable for the player (most of the time). You need to watch out though, because the more you play your own map you'll get used to bad flow and won't notice it, so make sure you only check once or twice! You don't even need to go into test mode, just play the song in editor and glide your cursor through parts of the map to check them. Also, if you're not already, don't use grid snap, it really limits what you can do creatively.
Exactly, this is one of the things I'm most concerned of. I kept thinking my beatmap's flow was good because of SSing the map all the time, but I always think that it's my own work, other people won't see the beatmap the way I would, thus, I'll always keep this tip in mind, and expand my boundaries of my beatmap so that others will also think it's comfortable. Nice tip! ^^
Reusing (copying and pasting things you've used before in a map) may seem like a lazy way to map, but it actually adds some really nice structure to your map and makes it much better looking overall. Check any good map and you'll see what I mean, it's used often to create symmetrical patterns and just patterns in general. I do think you use this too much, what I mean when I say this is that you should try and reuse a rotation of 2 sliders for a certain pattern that lasts for 10 seconds or something like that, it makes things a bit easier for you and links parts of your map together visually.
Haha I do that in some parts of my map. At first I thought that this was lazy and would make the map flat and boring, but if you tried to make the map have patterns that are too unique, players won't be used to it and will have to try many times before they are used to it. Again, thanks for this tip.
Try to have consistent spacing! The only reason you should change the spacing is for emphasis. If something is quiet and soft, lower the spacing. If something is loud and heavy, make the spacing higher. You should try to find a consistent distance snap to use throughout the whole diff. You don't even need to use distance snap, just use it as a guideline for what to do. Check the upper right corner when you have a note selected to see the spacing between the note ahead of it and the note behind it.
I know this already, and I try to have consistent spacing.Last but not least, good luck with this set and the future of your mapping career. I think it's important for you to know that getting maps bubbled isn't as easy as Bonsai has made it seem, unless you have friends in the Beatmap Nomination Team it can take months, years, or your map may even never get bubbled. In the current state of affairs the mapping community is in you need to be prepared to work hard and care about what maps you're ranking, and what maps you're going to work on; because all of your actions will shape the community, as mine do, as Bonsai's do, and everyone elses. I'll be honest with you in saying that i'm not happy that new BNs aren't like me, but nobody is. I'd like to say sorry to you if I did offend you, as with what I said above I imagine it wouldn't have been too hard. I wish you the best of luck with your new status as Beatmap Nominator, and may both of you keep mapping and modding for years to come.
I'm sure Bonsai is just trying to motivate me to making my beatmap ranked, but I'm always aware that mapping isn't that easy. You did not offend me in any way of course, but yeah you did blame Bonsai for trying to motivate someone, but you're kinda right for reminding me to not get too overconfident over compliments and statements, which I am not of course.
Wow, almost 3,000 words.
Alright, this mod might take a long time to fix as it's like remapping the easy difficulty... I'll PM you if I'm done with Kuki's.
Stjpa wrote:I might throw a mod too after you worked on Kuki's.
i take this game seriously because i'd like to be taken seriously, not only that but i care about this game as it takes up lots of my time.
Sotarks wrote:U are really tryharding to much this game, it's not a job dude. xd
pkhg wrote:hey kuki i have some tips for you
yeah, i figured it wasn't a totally genuine exclamation, i'm glad you pointed that out to me. i think you need to be careful about the statements you make, however, this case being a good example. lol.
Bonsai wrote:holy moly ok
When I said "I'd bubble this" I just had an extremely long irc-session with the mapper, with me pointing out a lot of things and just moving on as soon as I they replied. Towards the end I was a bit in a rush and basically just listed the rest of the stuff in one go and then came here to post the log, believing that "If the mapper applied all those things in a good way, this map might be pretty good to go". The CS was originally 4/4.5/5, but random mods said "hurrdurr CS so high for Easy diffs that's not how mainstream maps are" and got DeltaLeeds to for example change the CS of the Easy down to 3, which now causes all these ugly overlaps. Those didn't exist most of the times when I looked at the map (I followed this map from the start), and I advised to leave it at 4 as there is no reason to lower it and obviously causes the overlaps.
This map changed a lot since I posted that and I did not mean that in the way of "ok, I'll just recheck for RC-stuff and then immeadiately bubble". I inteded to have another irc-session with the mapper and address the new issues that came up while applying previous mods / my mod to see whether it didn't cause new problems.
Thanks for taking your time to write such a great mod Kuki, those are a lot of good points that I totally agree on, but mostly couldn't point out yet as the map was in a completely different state, so please don't blame me for everything all of a sudden xd
Thanks for this amazing constructive mod! ^^
Some mods in this diff don't have feedbacks because they aren't really valid in my new pattern and remap...
00:04:734 (1,2) - The literal first note in this map is wrong on a few differing levels, it curves, but the next note placement seems to assume the first note was perfectly straight. The two notes are on the exact same y axis, the cursor moves along the curve like a straight line, this makes the curve pointless. If anything, here (ideally) you would map it more like this, it's much more natural and generally, makes more sense. Applied this flow for the whole beatmap, I bet it's for the better! ^^
00:07:123 (4,1,3,4,6) - You've reused the same sliders here too, the same patterns even, although this could be construed as structure the constant reuse of patterns and sliders in this albeit small section is quite dull to play, with nothing new at all to spice things up other than a horizontal flip of what you just played. Consider making a few new patterns, perhaps add something new to the mix, like a repeat slider, or a triangular pattern. Alright.
00:13:092 (1,2,3,4) - I feel like it would be quite easy to create a nice diamond or square here by copying placement of the slider and hitcircle at 00:13:092 (1,2) - and stacking (via the hitcircle) onto 00:16:674 (3) - to create a perfect shape. This doesn't change gameplay so much but rather makes this section look a bit more polished, that is something you should strive for before heading for a bubble on your beatmap in my opinion.
Changed the pattern! I hope I did it right.
00:17:271 (4,1) - Again, almost a perfectly straight line here between the two notes, ideally, the note before the slider should lead into it, so in this case, the slider could be moved up and more on an angle to make this work, like so, although you may want to move some things around as that goes out of the editing field and may be difficult to hit in some lower resolutions as it could be out of the playfield.
Fixed and moved
00:17:868 (1,2) - The hitcircle here, although not necessarily blanketed by the slider, could at least be in the center to make this look a bit more clean, this looks nicer in play mode and editor rather than a circle not centred but not right aligned either.
00:22:047 (4,1) - Again, this is a copy of 00:17:271 (4,1) -, i would repeat myself from the two points above but i think for this in particular you should remove it and try something different, it doesn't have to be completely different mind you, like a set of hitcircles, or a repeat slider, just a different slider shape and placement would do quite nicely. Then, instead of reusing the same slider over and over, you can have a rotation of two to switch between, adding more to your repertoire as you go through the difficulty. Also, i'd like to point out that the note following this slider is slightly overlapped, which is generally looked down upon in easy difficulties, and generally in mapping if it is not purposeful. In this case, it seems too small an overlap to be purposeful, but also enough to not look tidy. In the future you should make more of an effort to avoid overlaps like this as it makes your map look much more professional. Changed this pattern... Let's see how it goes.
00:26:823 (4,1) - Now this, although straight, flows in an alright sense, as the slider still moves slightly to the right after the cursor has moved right to hit it, this is an alright example of a situation where it would be alright to have objects on the same y axis, though it's sometimes not ideal to have at all as it could look basic in some sense of the word.
00:32:196 (1,2,3) - This is a good idea in theory, but the overlaps here don't look very nice at all. an easy way to fix this is to turn off grid snap and do something more along the lines of this, however, 00:36:375 (4,1) - needs to be moved back to fix the stacking issues.
Changed the pattern, your idea was great but I also noticed that this pattern is a bit tricky for easy players...
00:36:972 (1) - this slider becomes visible at the slider head of 00:34:584 (3) - while it is still finishing, from prior knowledge I would say that, generally speaking, all stacks in easy difficulties are unrankable. In this particular situation I think you could beg to differ as 00:36:972 (1) - appears only at the very end of 00:34:584 (3) - and is therefore not really noticed as a stack per se while playing, so it could be still quite readable. I would go the safe approach here and try to avoid this stack (though i don't have any options to avoid it without moving things around), unless you can get advice from a member of the Quality Assurance team, because at the moment i'm not sure of the legitimacy coming from many of the beatmap nominators as of late.
00:36:972 (1,2,3) - This in all honestly looks like it was just thrown together with no modifications to it at all, and the uneven overlap on both sliders looks very messy. A simple fix is something along the lines of this. Now 00:41:151 (1) - can be stacked on 00:36:972 (1) - if you like, but i think you should, again, make a bit more of an effort to spice things up here, give it a curve, make it straight even, you have lots of possibilities to mess around with there.
I noticed this issue previously which is why I decided to remake the whole pattern from 00:32:196.
00:04:734 (1,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - Just like the easy difficulty there is a lot of the same thing that's been placed here, playing the exact same pattern in a different spot three times in a row is not fun, and it's not very unique either. Portions of maps that play like this can be very dull, and it's important to add different objects in to liven things up so the player isn't playing the same rhythm over and over again. For example, at 00:08:316 (1,2,3) - you could try something like this. Added a little "umph" into the patterns! ^^
00:13:838 (2,3) - 1/2 is allowed in Normal difficulties, but not 1/4 (perhaps in some rare cases). Especially in the form of a double/triple/stream. I suggest you replace this by simply repeating 00:13:092 (1) -. However, you'll need to move some other objects around to compensate for the repeat.
Fixed... Hopefully. I'm not sure if this 1/4 slider is allowed in normal... Is it?
Points for the mapper to work on himself
00:17:868 (1,2,3,4) - (This point is useless due to what I say below but it is still useful for learning purposes.) This is an alright triangle pattern, however i think it seems odd for there to be no blanket from 00:17:868 (1) -, because it looks so close. I think you should blanket 00:18:614 (2) - and move 00:19:062 (4) - to compensate.
I changed the pattern for a better flow... There's still no blanket, but the flow should be more readable...
00:18:614 (2,3) - As i said above, 1/2 is allowed in Normal difficulties, but not 1/4 (perhaps in some rare cases). Especially in the form of a double/triple/stream. I suggest you replace this by simply repeating 00:17:868 (1) -. However, you'll need to move some other objects around to compensate for the repeat.
Made into a 1/4 slider
00:22:644 (1,2,3,4) - Again here with the 1/4 double. ^
00:25:032 (1,2) - I think you could do something a bit cooler here, perhaps something like this, or two different sliders, pretty much any slider shapes that you can come up with can be done here.
Made a curvy "2" slider shape.
00:26:226 (2,1) - (2) Doesn't flow nicely onto (1), i'm going to leave you on your own here and you can try yourself to get it to flow properly, as from my previous point you may have remapped those two sliders entirely.
00:28:166 (2,3) - Same statement about the doubles.
1/4 slider change.
00:32:495 (2,3,4,5,6,1) - This section feels very linear and rigid, lots of straight movements and no signs of using sliders or hitcircles to flow into the next objects. I think you should read what i've got to say below about flow, and just like above, try remapping this section and fixing it up yourself. Incase you don't know already, if you have any trouble with this or any questions at all, you can message me in-game or here on the forums.
Again, the extra "umph" has been added in this part. ^^
00:36:972 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Same here. ^
00:42:047 (2,3,4) - Like I said above, use of 1/4 isn't allowed in most normals, the exception being rare cases, I think you should take information from what i've suggested above on replacing the doubles and working through it yourself Done.
00:44:883 (2,3) - And the last double in the map. Done
To be frank, when Bonsai saw the map, it was before I remapped the normal entirely right after he modded it, and thus it was extremely unpolished, I just remapped the difficulty! So thank you very much for this thorough mod of my remapped normal!
00:03:838 (2,3,2,3,2,3,2,3) - Curves like these are sometimes a bit too strong and come out looking a bit ugly in my opinion, this isn't so much of an issue but more of something you could polish to make this section look nicer.
00:03:540 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3) - Just like the Easy/Normal, lots of copy-paste at the beginning resulting in a somewhat dull opening section for this map. After (if) you read the information I give you below, I suggest you remap the beginning of each of these difficulties in order to give them a bit more oomph, ya dig?
I dig, but for the hard difficulty I honestly think it's good enough, I might fix it some more tomorrow.
00:14:286 (6,7) - This is quite a begginer-esque thing that I do see quite often, stacking another slider just under the slider before it. As you may read below, there are certain situations where this is ideal, and certain situations where it isn't. In this particular situation I wouldn't advise it, because if anything, it's got more emphasis than the note before it.
I'll think about this one, as I do think that stacking another slider suits, but yes it may just be me being used to my bad flows... I'll consider this if others want me to fix it.
I'll finish here and you can buzz me anytime for a re-check or any questions/clarifications on this mod, as some of the things I may continue to mod will be fixed by you naturally after learning all of the info i've layed down here.
The reason I didn't give you loads of ideas on how to remap sections was (partially because it's 2am) because I want this to be your map, and not mine. And I think with the basics I gave you in the normal above, and the tips i've listed below, you will be able to drastically improve your map
The CS or Circle Size in your normal difficulty is 4.5, I think this is too high. This is the same Circle Size used in maps like Apparition (the hardest ranked map in the game disregarding TAG4), and many other Extra and Insane level maps, I don't even have any CS 4.5 Normal beatmaps in my 15,000 map collection! I think at the very least the Circle Size should be changed to 4.
Lowered it to 4.2, because lower than this point, it's going to be cramped and overlapping...
00:48:913 (1) - Spinners like this are disliked by some people, as spinners should be used to build up momentum or emphasis on a particular section, this however is getting quieter as the spinner goes on rather than louder. This can definitely stay in your map, but you will have a few people that won't be fans.
The touch that makes the spinner softer each white tick is a good one in my opinion, so I'm letting it stay. :3
Thank you for the very useful mod! ^^
- 00:11:899 (6) - I feel the finish of slider tail follows nothing, Please remove it. Alrighty
- 00:16:674 (3) - add a whistle to the head ? You added it before 00:13:092 (1) - Ah yes, it was part of the remap, I copied sliders that screwed up the hitsounds. Done ^^
- 00:21:450 (3) - ^ Same Done
- 00:31:599 (3) - again about finish sound. Done
- 00:41:151 (1) - hmm, The new combo is not necessary for playing. Fixed.
- 00:47:719 (3) - add a whistle to the head Done.
- 00:01:151 (1) - add a whistle or something ? It's pretty much the same imo...
- 00:13:092 (1,2) - add a whistle to the tail? Done
- 00:13:838 (2) - I think it's better to make natural flow like thisWhy didn't I think of that? Great idea! ^^
- 00:15:480 (1,2) - hmm, I feel it's a little loud for playing about the finish on tail. try to change whistles instead of finish. Done.
- 00:17:868 (1,2) - Same as here 00:13:092 (1,2) - Alright.
- 00:05:032 (5) - add a whistle? Good idea ^^
- 00:07:420 (5) - ^ Done.
- 00:12:495 (5) - add a whistle to the tail since you added it here 00:10:405 (7) - ? Done
- 00:40:554 (3) - try to use 1/2 rhythm on here like thisGood idea. ^^