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[mapping discussion] "punk mapping"

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Topic Starter
jawns
Hi, I am Jawns, and I have recently posted a similar topic on reddit, but then realized, that i hadn't actually posted it to the place, designed for mappers to see these things...

(i made a yotube video as well, discussing this subject, if anybody is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wqbz3g_j2Q )

So, basically...
As you all know, there are some ways of mapping, that are common and considered "good mapping" (after all, this is the mapping techniques forum)...
However, i recently tried to see, whether what is considered "good mapping" is what i have the most fun playing, and I've come to the conclusion: No, not necessarily.

The point were it stood out to me the most, was after I finished my first mapset p/4528557#p4528557. The first map i mapped, the most difficult one, stands out a lot, as i at no point used distance snap, which is quite obvious. While the other maps are still a bit all over the place (it is my first mapset after all) they at least use distance snap, and they are clearly "makes a bit more sense" or whatever...
So I was surprised, that after playing through them all again, that I preferred the first map, despite it being so "random".

When I decided on what to map next, I decided to map it in a similar style. I didn't want to think about "flow" or "good patterns" or spacing or anything like that, I just wanted to map what I felt would fit the music. I decided to call this way of mapping "punk mapping": forget about the rules. Don't care about what anybody else is thinking.

This is the map I ended up with: t/418161

Now, after making it, I've played through it a few times, and (being completely biased here, i know) I enjoyed the crap out of it, and that was really my only goad. In fact, it might be the map I currently have the most fun playing in general.

Despite this, the map I'm currently mapping, is one where i focus more on what is generally considered good mapping: Good flow, consistent spacing ect. This is because of two reasons:
1. I feel like if I understand "regular" mapping better, i might be able to apply this knowledge to my "punk maps"
2. A lot of people, after playing the "punk maps", will assume i have no idea what I'm doing. If I make a bunch of normal maps, or maybe even get a few ranked, I can at least point to them.

If you've managed to read everything up to this point, congratulations! and also thank you...
But you probably wonder what the point of all this is.

Well, there are a few things i would like to discuss:

1: Do you think anybody else, besides me, would consider my map fun to play, or am I just weird...?
2: Do we sometimes focus too much on what is considered "good mapping" rather than what is actually fun to play?
3: Can maps that don't follow these "rules" be fun to play anyway; are there anything that objectively makes a mad good or bad, or is mapping entirely subjective?
4: Is it important to know how to follow the rules, even if your usual style is consistently breaking them?
Endaris
Most of all I'm curious where you read what "good mapping" is and what it is supposed to be.
I've digged myself through the entire wiki and the relevant subforums here and I didn't see anywhere anything written about how to make a map good so I eventually had to come up with my own definition and opinion on mapping.

And sure, RC doesn't define which maps are fun to play.
I didn't find your pain in the ass fun to play though because I don't enjoy maps that go ham just for the sake of going ham. It's not particularly bad but when I'm mapping I'm always aware of the fact that I want my map to be playable and enjoyable by more people than just me.
Topic Starter
jawns

Endaris wrote:

Most of all I'm curious where you read what "good mapping" is and what it is supposed to be.
I've digged myself through the entire wiki and the relevant subforums here and I didn't see anywhere anything written about how to make a map good so I eventually had to come up with my own definition and opinion on mapping.

And sure, RC doesn't define which maps are fun to play.
I didn't find your pain in the ass fun to play though because I don't enjoy maps that go ham just for the sake of going ham. It's not particularly bad but when I'm mapping I'm always aware of the fact that I want my map to be playable and enjoyable by more people than just me.
Sure, there's no clear definition of what is "good mapping", however there are a few things that are often repeated.
One of the most common ones is "good flow" and even though this is extremely vague, I'm pretty sure a lot of my maps doesn't follow great flow. There have been a few posts trying to describe what is good flow, and none of them seem to fit my map.
Another common one is consistent distance snapping. If you look at my velvet green map, the distances changes quite severely quite often. I even sometimes map similar sections, with different spacing. This is, as i said, because i think music can be interpreted in multiple ways when mapping, and I don't think it is wrong to use different interpretations throughout the song.
And finally, someone would probably argue that the rhythm of my velvet green map is too inconsistent. This is because of two reasons.
One, because I sometimes follow different instruments simultaneously, rapidly changing between following the vocals and the guitar for example (like in the verse of velvet green).
Two, because I map similar sections, with slightly different rhythms. This is for the same reason as before, because you can interpret what beats that are emphasized in different ways.

I have come to terms with, that my mapping style is definitely not for everyone, but thanks for your opinion anyway. I will probably still mainly make maps I myself find enjoyable, just in case there's at least one other person out there who would like it too!
Myxo
Believe me, if you'll ever get to the point where you have a few ranked maps you will look back at your first map and you won't find it fun anymore, you will just think it's bad.

Also, I wouldn't call this kind of mapping "punk mapping", I'd call it "newbie mapping" because most mappers start with something like this.
Topic Starter
jawns

Desperate-kun wrote:

Believe me, if you'll ever get to the point where you have a few ranked maps you will look back at your first map and you won't find it fun anymore, you will just think it's bad.

Also, I wouldn't call this kind of mapping "punk mapping", I'd call it "newbie mapping" because most mappers start with something like this.
Well, there's the obvious difference, that I am mapping this way on purpose, and not because I don't know any better
Myxo
You are making too much of a science out of it though. There are thousands of maps like this in the Pending / Graveyarded sections and most come from first time mappers. It doesn't take much effort to make a map that's fun to play when it's literally just random objects placed on the screen.

Take this advice, multiple times I've seen new mappers thinking that their own maps are something unique / particularly fun, when they were just fun to themselves because they were proud of having made a map. The best way to go would be to aim for maps that are both fun AND make sense with the music.

Good luck with whatever way you will be taking though.
Topic Starter
jawns

Desperate-kun wrote:

You are making too much of a science out of it though. There are thousands of maps like this in the Pending / Graveyarded sections and most come from first time mappers. It doesn't take much effort to make a map that's fun to play when it's literally just random objects placed on the screen.

Take this advice, multiple times I've seen new mappers thinking that their own maps are something unique / particularly fun, when they were just fun to themselves because they were proud of having made a map. The best way to go would be to aim for maps that are both fun AND make sense with the music.

Good luck with whatever way you will be taking though.
But my point is, that the map makes great sense with the music. Every note is placed with the music in mind, even more so than playability
winber1
With my new found power, I will say this...

This is like the purest form of cognitive dissonance ever.

Perhaps you do like your map, whether or not it's because you are only looking at the positive sides, but first off the only reason readability and flow makes any sense to you for this map is because you mapped it and even if you don't have it memorized, subconsciously you generally where to move to hit notes. Try playing something similar to your map but mapped someone completely different and try to make sense of that map. I don't have any examples, but trust me you will not understand it at all.

You say you are doing this "on purpose." Okay then, show me, can you map what we general community call "good maps?" Or at least maps that flow, have consistency, and in general make use of reasonable distance snapping? Can you please map something normal, but can be considered good? You say you have captured everything you want with the music in mind, and I can very confidently say that is not true from years of experience, not in osu, but in music as well. You will never be able to see every single interpretation, but you still might prefer what you have.

And you seem to be under the impression consistent distance snapping creates good flow and good overall maps, which is also completely untrue. Most extra maps completely disregard distance snapping, as do I when I map, but it's about knowing good times when use larger spacing and when to use smaller spacing. The maps you have literally have the same type of jumps and spacing throughout the whole map. It would make more sense if you could tone down certain slower sections to emphasize its calmness and increase jumps in exciting sections to emphasize its impact.

Alright, perhaps you really like large spacing and you find that fun. I often do too, but then I would not choose something like velvet green to map insanely large jumps. I would try to find a song that I see fit for jumps like these, and that's what I do before I even choose a song. Your previous song Needles makes much more sense with large ass jumps, for instance.Mapping is a style of art, and although it's not too hard to get into, there are many things to think about before, during, and after the mapping process.

If you think I still don't understand what you are doing, then so be it. There are many ways to emphasize the music and use large spacing in an elegant manner, and while doing so also being extremely unique. Not many mappers have the unique aspect down, but there are a few where I can almost immediately tell who this was by, because they had developed something unique to their style, while still maintaining playability, fun, and challenge.
Topic Starter
jawns

winber1 wrote:

With my new found power, I will say this...

This is like the purest form of cognitive dissonance ever.

Perhaps you do like your map, whether or not it's because you are only looking at the positive sides, but first off the only reason readability and flow makes any sense to you for this map is because you mapped it and even if you don't have it memorized, subconsciously you generally where to move to hit notes. Try playing something similar to your map but mapped someone completely different and try to make sense of that map. I don't have any examples, but trust me you will not understand it at all.

You say you are doing this "on purpose." Okay then, show me, can you map what we general community call "good maps?" Or at least maps that flow, have consistency, and in general make use of reasonable distance snapping? Can you please map something normal, but can be considered good? You say you have captured everything you want with the music in mind, and I can very confidently say that is not true from years of experience, not in osu, but in music as well. You will never be able to see every single interpretation, but you still might prefer what you have.
As I think I wrote at one point, I am currently making a more "common" map. I feel like I'm almost going ztrot territory in terms of not doing anything out of the ordinary with it, and I hope it will be considered good as a more "normal" map.

In regards to experience, I have only about a year or so experience with osu! and even less experience with mapping. However, I've been playing music for 12 years. I've composed music for probably about 8 years. I'm currently taking the highest level music class in my school, and I've applied for a high level music school. I think it's safe to say I have enough musical experience.

And you seem to be under the impression consistent distance snapping creates good flow and good overall maps, which is also completely untrue. Most extra maps completely disregard distance snapping, as do I when I map, but it's about knowing good times when use larger spacing and when to use smaller spacing. The maps you have literally have the same type of jumps and spacing throughout the whole map. It would make more sense if you could tone down certain slower sections to emphasize its calmness and increase jumps in exciting sections to emphasize its impact.
When I talk about consistent distance snapping or similar, I mean more consistent than what I make. There's one point where I have 3 notes on a line, spaced evenly on the timeline, however with much more distance between the two last ones, than the two first ones. I don't think you would ever see this kind of spacing in a ranked map.

"The maps you have literally have the same type of jumps and spacing throughout the whole map" really? This might be true with the needles map, it was my first map after all, but with Velvet Green, I made a very clear distinction between the calm verses and chorus, and the instrumental bits. It starts off quite difficult in the intro, calms down with the chorus and verse, and clearly spikes up in difficulty during the long instrumental bit in the middle.

Alright, perhaps you really like large spacing and you find that fun. I often do too, but then I would not choose something like velvet green to map insanely large jumps. I would try to find a song that I see fit for jumps like these, and that's what I do before I even choose a song. Your previous song Needles makes much more sense with large ass jumps, for instance.Mapping is a style of art, and although it's not too hard to get into, there are many things to think about before, during, and after the mapping process.
I didn't start mapping Velvet Green with the mindset "I want to map big ass jumps". It's just what felt natural to map.
"Mapping is a style of art" and as with all art, it is subjective. We can discuss how bad or good this map is for whatever reasons, but at the end of the day, it's my piece of art, and if I think it's perfect, it is.

If you think I still don't understand what you are doing, then so be it. There are many ways to emphasize the music and use large spacing in an elegant manner, and while doing so also being extremely unique. Not many mappers have the unique aspect down, but there are a few where I can almost immediately tell who this was by, because they had developed something unique to their style, while still maintaining playability, fun, and challenge.
"while still maintaining playability, fun, and challenge." Again, the map is both playable fun and challenging to me, and ultimately that's the most important thing.
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