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[New Rule] Do not extend mp3 length

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Total Posts
95
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
riffy
So, this thread is a continuation of the discussion started here.

Here's what I suggest it to be:
Do not extend song's length. The only exception is to loop a part of the mp3 file to achieve the minimum of 30 seconds length.

By extending mp3 to go Marathon, mappers take a shortcut and reduce the total drain time from a full set of 10-15 minutes to a 5-minute-long single difficulty, which is generally inaccessible to a preetty large part of players. This will prevent players from extending sets to meet marathon criterion of 5:00+ length, giving us more fully-mapped sets and making a cerain part of songs more accessible to lower ranked players.
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
I. Totally. Agree.

Mappers nowadays became more and more lazy to make full sets on "above TV Size length songs" with some mappers being able to map only 5*+ diffs (wtf)
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
or increase the approval length back to 6 minutes
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
riffy
We've come a long way to get it at 5:00, rolling back to the old RC will make all those efforts pointless. Let's stop at 5:00 with the strict disallowance of unnatural extensions.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
i'm just suggesting this because these unnatural extensions didn't really happen with a 6 minute limit. I didn't expect anyone to take this really seriously.

Disallowing dumb stuff seems cool
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

Okoratu wrote:

Disallowing dumb stuff seems cool
I approve!
Lasse
Beatmap Nominator
3,596 posts
Joined June 2011
Lasse
I personally don't really see a problem with this as long as it
- doesn't ruin the "integrity" (pretty sure there is a better word) of a song,
- is executed well and
- is only adding some reasonable amount (so not making a 3:50 song 5:00+by adding another chorus or something stupid).

So having it handled on a case by case basis would be fine, especially when keeping in mind that the mapper will have to find 3 BN/QAT that agree with this edit to even have a chance of getting it approved.


But forcing mappers that upload such maps to add stuff like "extended" or whatever to the tags/mentioning it in the map description or anything along that, so people know it is not the 100% original version as intended by the artist, should be fine.
Altering the title would be too much and make metadata weird.

Another idea to kind of prevent this would be allowing something like 4:40 if the mapper adds another difficulty with reasonable spread or a difficulty for a different mode to make it accessible to a wider range of players.
And after all, having a song ranked (and hopefully mapped with decent quality) that is playable for a part of the player base is better than not having it playable at all.

Then there is also the whole "getting mods for a 5x4:50 drain map" thing, it's hard enough finding people to mod a ENHIX 3min song even if you M4M



If you want people to not be "lazy" there should rather be something done about the whole trend of "uploader maps one Insane/Extra and fills the whole spread with GDs, even if the song is really short" instead, but that's a different topic (and more targeted at what Sergio mentioned)
MBomb
MBomb
I feel the rule would be better as "A map with an extended mp3 must have a full set of difficulties", as sometimes people extend the song in nice ways for reasons other than getting a 5 minute point, and we shouldn't stop those people. An example of this is the 30 second thing as you said, but some people even loop 30 second songs so that the map is above a minute in some cases.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
  1. Extending the mp3 its disrespectful for the artist
  2. Extending the song its just a way to foolish the marathon length requirement
  3. I don't have time to make a full spread set its not an excuse, there are alot of mappers willing to map 1 diff for you
  4. Mods aren't hard to get, do M4M is super easy or ask modders to mod just certain diffs in your set.
  5. There is not reasonable amount of time, any edit to the mp3 in case is a bad idea, because this promote the abusing of the system, first people started with 1 or 3 secs, now is the entire copy of sections, to avoid such cases we need a hard rule for this.
Anyways as one of the mappers that always do full set of long songs, I can say that getting mods or gd is never an issue. If you intend to have an approval / marathon length ranked map and your song is 4:59 , then avoid mapping it, simple like that or do a full set of difficulties. Rules are there to be follow and doing this kind of shortcuts isn't right at all
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
@natsu: some game songs are meant to be looped / played looped. as long as obvious laziness isn't the reason for looping a song, looping / extending in itself might not even be bad.

basically what mbomb said
Hula
581 posts
Joined January 2013
Hula
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/144171

Imagine if that was extended to 5 mins and was just a marathon :(.
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
riffy
With the current state of things, yes, extending such sets to make them marathon is perfectly fine. That is also one of the reasons why the discussion was open.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Rewording to "extending songs to meet marathon criteria" would be favorable from my side, because as explained looping songs altogether might not be a bad thing, and everyone was mad about people doing it to get rid of the predicament of a full spread to begin with.

Example:
If i take https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ3XjVVNagU and loop it once in order to map the kiai twice because i like the song so much this rule would disallow me from doing that while i would still have to provide a full spread. I would be forced to just delete half of my diffs because mapping 3:32 out of a 1:46 song is deemed unacceptable under that wording.

Which is dumb.
Last edited by Okoratu , edited 1 time in total.
Deimos
802 posts
Joined April 2012
Deimos
please, don't come up with this dump "it's disrespectful to the artist", how many of you and how often did you ask the artists or owner for permission to use their content in osu? maybe 0.1%? or much lower

I personally don't see a problem with it, mappers are even allowed to use music content on youtube or wherever which has been hardly modified compared to the original version like remixes, memes, nightcore, speedcore, even extended versions exist there, so why wouldn't mappers be allowed to modify it as well?

also what about those "lazy mappers" who cut their music 'cause a cut version doesn't exist and don't want to map a whole 3-4min mapset?

just because some mappers don't put much effort, time, work, etc. in mapping as you do doesn't automatically mean that it's worthless


disapprove from my side, even so I am not a "Mapper"
HappyRocket88
4,321 posts
Joined May 2014
HappyRocket88
Oh, I'm glad this is now a thing. Totally support. Sorry Monstrata. _(:3J L)_
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
I personally don't like this rule, if the actual purpose starts from "not to let lazy mappers rank their stuff easily".
Rather, if the point is more related to making approved maps more accessible for a larger portion of players, then maybe it could have a validity.

However if that's really a problem, then basically, BNs should not nominate such maps, and rather ask mappers to add an additional difficulty.

Though approval section no longer exists in reality, the format of an approval status exists.
And 5 minute of drain time was selected as a standard for an approval map.
If the mapper decides to modify the length of the mp3, and makes an approval map for whatever reason, then let it be.

Mappers should have the right to map a song for ranked status if it has enough drain time.
Ranking a map is a privilege, and extending a song to take a shortcut isn't right?
Again, those should be dealed by BNs who nominates what map could get ranked eventually.

Adding a rule preventing an mp3 extension will just be surrounding the surface, not touching the core.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
I dont see a problem with extending the length to hit the approval mark, unless it's a low quality loop or just something that seems nonsense to do. Nonsense as in, say, copy a big portion of the song so that it jumps from 4:20 to 5+ min. Anything from 4:50 to 5+ min should be fine imo.

Also, that suggestion of "add another, lower, or different gamemode difficulty" to a just sub5min song to give it the approval status seems like a cool idea.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I really don't see a problem with MP3 length extensions.

- When you would say "It's inaccessible for new players" then that's a problem with marathon maps as a whole. I don't feel this is a legitimate point unless you disallow marathon single-diff ranking and require full spread for all maps, because otherwise how would that even be fair? In both cases the mapper has done the same (similar) amount of work, yet you're going do disregard what one of them has done purely based on the song they've chosen to use, while the other gets a free pass?

Yauxo wrote:

Also, that suggestion of "add another, lower, or different gamemode difficulty" to a just sub5min song to give it the approval status seems like a cool idea.
I do really like this idea, though.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
I miss that old rule which says something like "If auto achieves more than 20M score, then the diff goes for approval"

Awh, now seriously, my opinions.
- as i said on another thread, 5:00 is 5:00 and not 4:59
- If your mp3 is 4:58, then nothing prevents you from finding GDs from other mappers.
- I believe it's really a bad idea to keep the same title for an edited mp3, it should be named with something like (Edit ver.) etc.
- Don't try to abuse the RC by editing the mp3 in order to fit length rule, you're being disrespectful to a lot of people, and not only the artist.
- If you're lazy to make a full mapset, then quit mapping for rank, and don't say you're a good mapper.
- Enjoy mapping.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Doing this won't encourage people to stop being "lazy"; it'll encourage them to be even more "lazy" by not mapping the song at all. People who extend the .mp3 didn't have the intention or will to deal with a full spread in the first place. That's why they extended the .mp3.

Does it suck? Yes, but no matter how much you try to force people to not be "lazy", the amount of time they decide to spend on mapping is up to them. Yes, getting something ranked isn't a right, but actively making it harder for people to enjoy this aspect of mapping doesn't really help in the long run.

Also where does the line between extended and remix end? Both are edits to the original song. What if I decide to remix a 4:50 minute song into something more than just an extended version, resulting it becoming 5:10, solely for the sake of the ranking criteria. I've now just artificially increased the length of the song and "shitted on" (not that I'm against remixes btw) the artists original intentions. This is basically why you don't want extended versions, but how is this any different from say, mapping an asterisk remix of a song, made by someone else?

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.

Edit:
Also, what about themed marathon compilations? Would maps like this be unrankable as well? You are editing portions of the song, with fade in and outs and basically mashing them together until you're above the approval time limit.
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

CXu wrote:

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.
This is especially relevant for game modes other than Standard where even if you are a well known or popular mapper, there might not be enough modders willing to even take a look at the set in the first place.

We don't have a hard and fast rule on people cutting songs down to length; it's down to the BN/QAT (and ultimately, the community's) discretion as to what constitutes a "good" cut - why should this be any different for an extend? If it's used sensibly and is actually done well, I don't have an issue with it.
-kevincela-
Elite Mapper
2,790 posts
Joined February 2010
-kevincela-

JBHyperion wrote:

We don't have a hard and fast rule on people cutting songs down to length; it's down to the BN/QAT (and ultimately, the community's) discretion as to what constitutes a "good" cut - why should this be any different for an extend? If it's used sensibly and is actually done well, I don't have an issue with it.
I definitely agree with this point of view, most of the extends I've seen haven't been that dramatic at all and I can't understand why 4:58 - 4:59 songs can't get extended to 5:00 either. The whole point of the "lazy mapper" also seems kinda weak, I wouldn't exactly call someone who is already willing to map an entire extra diff out of a 5 minutes song "lazy" considering that mapping other 4 diffs out of it in some cases is really overkill, and while one can ask for GDs I don't know how many mappers out there would enjoy mapping a 5:00 minutes E/N/H, unless they really like the song. And also excluding all of this, as CXu said, getting a mod to a full spread 4:55 song (and I'd say also MODDING it for who wants to mod it) is definitely harder than a single diff, if I can't find mods for a 2:00 song mapset how am I supposed to do it for a 4:55 song, especially now that there are fewer BNs than before?

At best I'd include this as a guideline and use common sense for the rest, I don't see much usefulness in having this set as rule
Kite
osu! Alumni
1,372 posts
Joined July 2009
Kite

CXu wrote:

Doing this won't encourage people to stop being "lazy"; it'll encourage them to be even more "lazy" by not mapping the song at all. People who extend the .mp3 didn't have the intention or will to deal with a full spread in the first place. That's why they extended the .mp3.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I still disagree with this, as long as it's not clearly noticable
If extensions are really clear (like repeating certain parts then it should be disallowed
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
riffy
Good thing is that we have the discussion started, but as I read through I think of a guideline more and more as this still has to be present somewhere in a written form but the points you guys bring are really important and should be minded. Let's consider it from that perspective? That'd make a good compromise, I believe.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
are you implying its better to cut the mp3 instead?

i would disagree

even though i personally wouldn't extend the mp3 in most cases anyway (i think i did it once cuz the drain time was fking 4:59 or something).
as cxu said, this wouldn't encourage people to not be lazy.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
I think it's really silly that we place the blame of "lazy" upon the most hypothetical little shit instead of the actual style in which one maps in.

There's a difference between "lazy" and making adjustments to not have to do loads of pointless extra work that will honestly make things HARDER in the end (ie. people are less likely to mod a 4:55 full spread map compared to a 5:00 approval 1 diff map).

Laziness is mapping a 5 minute song and using a shitload of copy-paste when there's repeated patterns because you don't feel like creating original ideas for a piece (not to say that there aren't reasonable places to copy-paste, but there are many times when people will use it as a lazy tool instead of as a compositional additive.)

A proper adjustment to adhere to rules and make the map more appealing is looping a section (especially a section that could be considered a vamp section) to make the drain time long enough to make things work within a certain medium. Especially if the song is reasonably close enough to make said adjustments.

Let's look at this for example



Currently working on this map (or technically, finishing it, since I started this map my freshman year of college).

So the mp3 I have is about this time, like, 4:55. But I know that it'll be a huge struggle to find willing modders to look at a 4:30 (assuming I use breaks) drain time map with a full spread, especially since my style of mapping makes creating a full spread that doesn't get complaints REALLY annoying in rap music (ie. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/113254 ). So I slowed down the mp3 by like 5 BPM. Oh no. But the map is still full of fresh original content and plays nicely, which SHOULD, in a perfect world, be the most important thing.

I think the notion that this would affect a composer's artistic integrity is actually a good point. However, cut versions are explicit re-interpretations of the song, some of which are done without the composers consent. Which doesn't neccessarily justify it, but it is one of the realities that we have to ask "Are we going to use this point only when it is most convenient to my personal beliefs, or will we apply it to EVERY instance?"
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
I wholeheartedly support this. It's just low-effort content to extend it for the sake of approval, put more effort in your maps.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
kinda funny that the mapper is lazy if he extends a 4:50 to 5:00 but the 90% of modders that will likely never check a 4:50 full set aren't mentioned xd
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden

OzzyOzrock wrote:

kinda funny that the mapper is lazy if he extends a 4:50 to 5:00 but the 90% of modders that will likely never check a 4:50 full set aren't mentioned xd
^ this ^


I'd dare to say that most mappers don't want to map 3+ minute long sets because of how incredibly difficult finding modders (let alone BNs) for those long sets are.

Regarding the topic, I think I'll stay neutral on this. None of the arguments has convinced me so far.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

Stefan wrote:

I wholeheartedly support this. It's just low-effort content to extend it for the sake of approval, put more effort in your maps.
how about we put effort into making good maps and not just some arbitrary "omg u made this thing play two times instead of one time!!!!"

If a mapper is able to take 5 minutes of content and make it great, it's a great map. Who gives a fuck if the mp3 is edited, it's a good map regardless.

Shit maps don't come from edited mp3s, shit maps come from shit mappers and mappers who don't give two fucks about providing good content.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
I'm so glad this become a public discussion because it was nearly unanimous in the BN forums.

This should just be a guideline at most because you shouldn't discourage or prevent someone from ranking a song on the pretext that they are lazy. Otherwise, people are just going to call mappers who make a single diff in an 8 difficulty-spread for a 45 second song "lazy" and try to prevent them from getting their set ranked too.

Cutting/extending/looping mp3's may be considered lazy but laziness has nothing to do with mapping quality. You can't say that a map is really low quality and poorly mapped just because the mapper didnt make a full set. That makes no sense.

Make it a guideline so poorly extended mp3's have the potential to be disqualified. I think this is what people may have trouble with. Some edits are great, and unless mentioned, you wouldn't even know it was an edit. But others may seem forced and/or awkward because the mp3 editing was poorly done. Songs often operate on a 16 measure system for verse/chorus sections (or 32 measures, etc... multiples). I've seen mp3's that loop 4 measures over again, creating a 20 measure chorus, or 20 measure verse section. For me, this creates a rhythmic imbalance and I would be fine if maps got disqualified under this context.

I think it's fine to make this a guideline. But as a rule, it's not only unnecessary, but difficult to enforce too. Mappers are not obligated to tell you they extended the mp3. They can always lie and tell you this is the original mp3. This presents a new job for QAT's which is to find another original source for the mp3, and timing it independently to make sure it is actually over 5 minutes.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

Monstrata wrote:

I'm so glad this become a public discussion because it was nearly unanimous in the BN forums.
This so much.

I got a PM from like 3 BNs being like "you should comment on this" and then they're like "oh wait fuck lmfao"

I think ALL discussions regarding the ranking criteria should be done through this forum. It's kind of silly to exclude such a large part of the community in a discussion of how things should be done. Especially because applications have generally been closed off for a VERY long time, the BN is kind of stuck with a lot of old voices, and no new voices are allowed to come in and contribute new perspectives to the discussions that would happen there.

Although that doesn't stop rules from just like, kinda becoming rules from QAT without ever actually being discussed or even put in the ranking criteria, but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah. Baby steps.
Electoz
1,886 posts
Joined May 2015
Electoz

CXu wrote:

Also, not that I've looked, but in general, how often does a not well known mapper get a full spread 4:55~ minute song actually ranked? Yes, it's doable, but remember many of you have the connections and name recognition as well. It's not always that easy.
This.
Tbh finding modders is already hard if you aren't popular. So finding a modder for such a drain time is definitely out of question.
I think you can cut/edit the mp3 if you can provide valid reasons, like to reach 5 mins while your song is just a few seconds away, it's a marathon song with various artists, looping game's soundtracks, etc.
As for about being disrespectful towards artists. As long as it's not sth like looping the entire chorus or something that is noticable by people who know the song, I think it's still fine because people would prefer listening to the songs from original ones.
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening
Sounds like i'm repeating what most people have to say here but here it is again ha!

Think this discussion is kind of swaying into the map actually being good etc. which is fine but i don't think is what Bakari is trying to get at here

The main idea of this rule is probably just to give more accessibility for players at the lower-caliber to be able to play 5-minute marathons so I'll just give my onions about this

First off I'd like to say that there is not a lot of tracks that are 5min+ long strictly and also support the idea of having it as a very easy difficulty, talking about 1*-3.5*, and even then, making those maps might be (SUBJECTIVE OPINION INCOMING!!) quite boring (haha)

Secondly, if you're planning to cut off at 5min, music at the 4:30-4:59:999 mark (there is actually a map that is 4:59:999 drain time) will probably never be mapped for rank, people in this discussion have already stated that getting mods at this length is just ridiculously hard, and I'm pretty sure i'll get rebutted by people with,"oh my god just be patient and work harder", but not really, most people will just go "yea fuck this, I'll map this just for graveyard xp"

Thirdly, getting a full set for a 4:30 - 4:59:999 long song is pretty uguuuuuuuuuuuu (hard/difficult), think it's fine if you can ask for GDs but it is harder than getting mods as i have mentioned, comparing this to a single difficulty marathon it's a huge jump that only a few very dedicated people can overcome (and actually can be arsed to rank).

Fourthly, mappers that intend to map these extended songs won't go like "hey you know what, i should map/get gds for a full spread just for beginners xD"

In conclusion, I personally feel like you're just going to cut off potential rankable extended maps instead of promoting the usage of maps that cater to the beginners if this were to pass as a rule. I think promoting the creation of easier maps through other means would be better, but as of now I think this will just lower the amount of potentially harder and longer maps
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
Hmm.

The argument that modifying the mp3 is disrespectful to the artist has bothered me for a long time. It simply doesn't make sense. Music is art, in theory everyone has the right to modify it the way they think it fits (for example by doing remixes). In order to release such a modification in public the artist would need to allow you to, that's for sure. But how many of the mappers do ask artists for permission to map their songs at the first place? Atleast 99% do not. So there is no reason to forbid making edits to mp3s from that point of view.
Music doesn't get worse when a fading sound at the end is stretched (if it's done right). It doesn't even get worse if you loop a whole section, again, if it's done right.

If you played any rhythm game that is not community based, you will notice that most of the time the songs are edits / cuts of the original songs (except when the songs are composed specifically for that game). This is a GAME, maps are supposed to be fun to play, we just use the songs as a base to provide a fun experience for the players. Doing sensible modifications for the sake of the map shouldn't be an issue at all, in that case.

Now about lazyness: The approval category exists only for one reason: Because (most) mappers are 'lazy'. You could in theory map a full spread for every song. So why does this rule exist? Because mappers don't want to bother spending so many days mapping one song, when it's simply not worth the effort (for most). So why do people extend / cut songs? Because of the exact same reason. Mapping a full spread for a 4:50 song is similary tedious to mapping a full spread for a 5:10 song. It doesn't feel worth the effort.

I feel dumb to say this, but currently we have a lot of full spreads ranked, the rate of approval is fairly low in comparison. Why disallow those maps to be ranked then? Just let the mappers and players have fun with them, it's all good. In theory, the lack of a rule preventing mp3 extends could be abused and we could only have Approved mapsets, but it's not the case and will never be the case, because there are some mappers who like to put less effort in their maps, and some mappers who like to put more efforts in their maps.

tl;dr good old 'please enjoy game' :3
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