And for anyone not in the know, Kalindraz' discomfort thing was basically a copy-paste of my mod on xexxar's my hero diff.


And I'm not going to bother going over every individual note presented because fuck that. 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - are also basically random but blanketed on purpose, what's the problem with that? I will look over the blanket issues but giving a glance over what you've linked i can safely say 90% of it is denied as this map is long beyond accepting completely remapped patterns given to me as "suggestions" because that shit is what ruined it in the first place.

Ongaku wrote:

You do know that the set isnt going for rank anymore.
Discomfort was also a troll diff, but as added on since people liked it.

So you guys are still going to rank this, or you will continue doing useless post, If so I'm there in game, you can poke me anytime.


Edit: ew, my post have little to do qith the DQ, the main issue was Elvis post, I think you adress that as well already no? I just want to go via irc over minor stuff to polish the looking of your map.
About the 7 stars diff, that diff wasn't there when the map got qualify so I don't know what you want to get with having it there, if you want to qualify with it go ahead.

all you gotta do is make your list on extra of changes for me to do and make the verdict that you want comfort deleted in return for an icon

i see no reason to walk behind the curtain and discuss things when clearly the chance for discussing or presenting my opinions is long gone, because as long as you disagree, you will have this map DQ'd by listing a handful of bullshit reasons and ask for it to be DQ'd before i even get the chance to respond

don't try to say otherwise, elvis' post was literally 2 half-assed opinions and one "well i kind of think this is wrong". This DQ was borderline abusive and you know it full well.


say your piece and I'll do whatever you want because that's what I'm basically forced to do. You clearly know better than I do how to map my own map.

Well Shiirn if you gonna keep that attitude then go ahead and look for anyone else, I'm done here, you aren't a kid anymore and we can talk the stuff with calm, you are not forced to do nothing or fix nothing, but to reply and explain your mapping with manners in a polite way, also stop making like your map will change for moving 3 rhythms at elvis post and fixing some visual things that don't require to make your map different, but looking better,you know this well so I don't know why the big deal with this.

Anyways I'll be there on IRC willing to help you if you change your mind.

Clarified things in my usual completely barbaric and offensive way. Small changes are small, but they add up like crazy when I'm not promised any sort of forward movement. Okoratu mentioned before, I'm forced with bad positions because I've had to sew together suggestions from a dozen places and now any further ones are just more problems to the fire. It's not that the suggestions being made are unreasonable, nor that i am being unreasonable for not accepting them, but that there are so many, so many conflicting suggestions that it's impossible to satisfy everyone so I just want to stick to at least satisfying myself.

Discussed with the mapper we moved stuff in Extra, like fixing alot of blankets, some stacks, things in my mod were adressed and the last thing we are waiting is a disccusion in: p/5092844#p5092844 So we can maybe rank this with the previously removed 7* diff, positive things can be archive with DQ, so you guys should always take some minutes for think and look for a talk about the problem instead of discussing useless stuff.

Anyways if you want to add something about the current disussion that is the spread , feel free to do it, we need all the posible opinions to find an agreement, just as remember we disscusing about the spread now.

Specifically talking about the Extra -> Comfort spread, I think it works fine as is. The SR formula doesn't work as well for alt-based maps, and in this case both the spacing and rhythm increase by a fair amount but not too drastically and works fine as a second and highest difficulty.
(side note: ...I got further on Comfort than Extra what is going on there hahah)
Extra to Insane is only a spacing difference since the density of notes is almost the same but the spacing is a fair amount lower and the density doesn't need to be lowered for an insane-level.
Lower diffs are SR-wise good so I'll assume they are fair because too lazy to check \o/

tl;dr Extra to Comfort works as an actual good step up despite SR

(edit: gg didnt see the thread link)

Secretpipe wrote:

guys chill

btw i'm checking now.

Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?

Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?

Shiguma wrote:

Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?

Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?

they change the slider velocity

Mazziv wrote:

they change the slider velocity

But it's a spinner.

Volume change, got it.

Shiguma wrote:

Mazziv wrote:

they change the slider velocity

But it's a spinner

then its the volume that changes

Shiguma wrote:

Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?

Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?

I made the slider velocity match the volume because I'm a funny guy. Also, Comfort has changed in a lot of small ways but mostly in ones that actually follow my vision of the song, unlike Extra. What people don't seem to understand is that I'm not actually that good a mapper. My first drafts suck and it's only after self-modding for a while that the maps git gud

Shiirn wrote:

I'm a funny guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGKPmZ0Pl0



So, in your opinion Extra is nothing like it used to be?

Shiirn wrote:

I'm not actually that good a mapper.

And we should all embrace how we all equally suck, and thus achieve universal peace and understanding!

Kalindraz wrote:

Discomfort

1. First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is perfectly functional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all, your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.

thank

Shiirn wrote:

People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.

This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier). And seeing retarded non-sense HW maps getting ranked, or jump spam Monster/Remote Control getting ranked but not this map with actual flow and rhythm sense makes me sad.

Kynan wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.

This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier).

I can say the same about people who don't have idea about mapping, can you stop posting useless stuff that no one is discussing?
Read this post again: p/5092848 and try to contribute to move things forward instead of make us lost time by useless drama.

1. The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
   
2. We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
   
3. We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.

What do you want me to say ? "Hey if your issue is spread then guess what, since you're not HW and you don't use dumb sliders that have no impact on the star rating, then you're gonna have to either nerf your really good map and make it annoying as fuck to play or simply remove it from the mapset" ? Because that's already been said by the past and if "spread" is the ONLY argument against that map then, well, good fucking luck.

Edit: I really don't see why people care about the spread over mapping quality. Having to nerf the map just to make it fit the spread as opposed to keeping it as it is because it plays well is just retarded.

Natsu wrote:

I can say the same about people who don't have idea about mapping, can you stop posting useless stuff that no one is discussing?
Read this post again: p/5092848 and try to contribute to move things forward instead of make us lost time by useless drama.

1. The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
   
2. We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
   
3. We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.

Tbh, if the map plays well, then it doesnt matter how its mapped. Also the spread is fine, you dont need a diff every 0.3 stars man.

The problem is that some players will feel like "Oh wow I can ace extra but can't even pass Comfort, there should really be a diff in between/extra should be harder/ Comfort should be easier!"

And that's what they're tryng to avoid. It's the right thing to do because when that happens it's REALLY annoyng, but I don't think that can be done in every map, some would need a full remap instead of nerfs which as you said can't be done without making the map worse..

See monstrata post, that's what I'm asking for, anyways I will just move on from this set, since trying to help here, is making me stress alot. Best of luck with this.

I don't think another difficulty is necessary. high bpm maps just tend to scale harder with star-rating. Of course, we take star-rating into account, but we should also acknowledge that the star-rating has its limitations, this map being a key example. The extra is quite a bit more difficult than the star rating suggests imo. It's mapped in a double bpm style, but it's also very alternator based, and uses a lot of large 1/4 slider jumps. However, we know that 1/4 slider jumps are a severely underweighted pattern which results in the map being a lower star rating that expected. This is true of a lot of similar maps (see Scarlet Rose). Comfort on the other hand uses 1/4 circle jumps and we all know that circle jumps are the main cause for star-rating inflation (see any of my maps). The map itself, I don't find to be that much of a step up from Extra, so the difficulty spread is acceptable imo. The star-rating gap is large, definitely, but hopefully we can see that part of this is because the two difficulties lie on opposite ends of the star-rating spectrum, one being underweighted, and one being overweighted.

Anyways, I wonder if other high-ranked players share this view.

Natsu wrote:

Just bring your input about the ¨spread¨, IDC what HW is ranking, I care what is going on in this mapset, and no we are not talking about the star ranting.

TIL that spread isn't based on star rating.

Also what Monstrata said, the only reason the difference in star rating is so big between Extra and Comfort is because one uses a lot of sliders and the other doesn't. The spread is totally fine here it's just (circles) jumps being overrated vs sliders being underrated.

Edit: Didn't mean to offend you Natsu, it's just that the point you made about the spread, IN MY EYES, was dumb so you know... If that's still the only reason why this isn't getting ranked then I don't see why we're still discussing it, it just makes no sense to not rank a map simply because the MAX DIFF which is above Extra is apparently "too hard" compared to the Extra. It's not Shiirn's fault if the star rating is dumb as hell when it comes to jump maps.

Okay seriously what the fuck guys. I know full well that Natsu doesn't want to actually re-icon this map and is looking for a clean, obvious way to get out of it, but I wanted the spread thing to be firmly removed as a possibility for any possible future qualifications.

Seeing as the only person willing to icon the mapset as-is is Monstrata (After I present the traditional offering of three unharmed three-month-old kittens from the third litter), I'm stuck unless another BN steps up anyway.

1. Extra contains mildly large spacing with heavy slider-circle-slider jump movement. This is extremely traditional of alternator maps, and sticks to this alternating style for most of the map.
2. Comfort contains very large spacing with very little slider-based leniency or friendliness. The first kiai especially contains massive bounce jumps that encourage single-tapping due to how hard it is to coordinate alternation while making very large, sweeping movements. This kind of combined challenge is what Comfort is based around and what makes it so fun and satisfying to watch and, if you are capable, to play. The second kiai has spacing that is just as large, but since it uses slider-circle-slider jump patterns it is actually much easier and I think any high-tier player can tell you that.
3. Comfort contains very large spacing with circle patterns that I fully understand are very harsh and difficult. There are a lot of horizontal jumps, namely left->right jumps, which are easily the most naturally difficult movements possible for tablet players.
4. The spread is fine. Extra is a standard difficulty cap for alternation. It fits very well as the hardest diff of the set, but Comfort adds a completely different challenge that most high-tier players haven't had (brief shoutout to the original Tengaku, which did something similar but in a different way) any maps do to challenge them in months, if not years: actually needing to coordinate their clicking with their movement. Most of the very high PP maps and the DT farming maps contain only the challenge of having high enough stamina to singletap, say, 250-270bpm 1/2s, while making over-scaled jump movements. Comfort actually ties these jump movements into the same alternator map that extra is.
5. This means that Comfort is ridiculously hard because it contains two entirely different playstyle challenges in one map. Anyone capable of FCing this is easily one of the best players this game has seen, and I want that to be obvious to any observers.

People are free to disagree with how the map is constructed, because it takes a lot of liberties with the establish "normal" mapping style, namely, that "consistency" (very predictable 1/2 spamming) and "flow" (movements with the least amount of physical exertion) styles that completely disgust me because they make absolute mockeries of the music they are attached to.

I fully believe this set deserves to be ranked. It brings to the community several challenges and reminders that have not existed in this game for more than a couple of years. The Extra has been largely and clumsily chopped apart and put back together, yes, but it is still a functional alternator map (which are thankfully hard to fuck up too hard) and fits as a bridge between Insane and Comfort.


People usually tend to object to the mapping styles used within this map because they think it "doesn't make sense" or "doesn't have a cohesive theme". I can safely say that I fully know and understand this map and every movement used within. But that's what people do nowadays. They fear what they don't understand. They refuse to look outside of their own little comfort bubble to see what mapping can truly become. Their own personal views become what they think is RIGHT, and they act actively to defend this game from what they view as destructive. And I can respect that. I was like that once too. But all modders and mappers have that phase where they think they are the only ones standing between this game and horrible quality maps. They are wrong and horribly arrogant and I was just like that before.




EDIT: I think everyone needs a break from this set. I'm going to request it be locked again.

Opened back up for polite and hopefully rational discussion, if anything about it even needs to be said anymore.

Okay.

[COMFORT]

1. 00:08:832 (4) - I'd CTRL+G so it keeps the square pattern intact, creates a slightly nicer pressure onto 00:09:040 (5) - since I don't get right now I feel like 00:08:832 (4) - gets too much unecessary pressure at that part of the song.

[EXTRA]

1. 00:36:853 (1,1) - Never really liked or understood this, you might have exlpained it before on the thread, but it's too long for me to find :p So I'll appreciate an explanation. (perhaps I'm just a shitty player idk)

[HYPER]

1. 00:14:978 (1,2,1) - spacing is a bit unnecessarily huge here imo, especially for an hyper, it's misleading.
2. 00:32:999 (6,2) - I wouldn't do this in a hyper, really confusing.
3. 00:50:811 (4,5,1) - Would appreciate a bit of consistency and increasing the spacing here, since it's really close to the 1/4 spacing you had so far and far from the 1/2 one.
4. 01:16:436 (6,7) - This overlap is not very aesthethic.
5. 01:53:415 (1) - 15% audio like you did at higher diffs. (same for probox's and pishi's diffs.

[ADVANCED]

1. 00:33:520 (2) - Yeah there's beat on the reverses, tail and head, but the slider doesn't really fit imo.. The song does not ask for those reverses.

[BEGINNER]

1. 00:34:978 (1) - Yeah, it's a strange song. But still, this should be snapped to 00:34:874 and not the white tick.
2. 00:59:978 (1) - The hell is going in this section? Some places this rhythm is not mapped, some places it is, and some places you placed a spinnner ;o WHaT's going on?
3. 01:09:978 (1) - Would be much better to not use a spinner or just shorten it to actually start the map with the super intense notes at 01:13:311 and not join awkwardly at 01:14:561 (1) -
4. 01:24:145 (2,1) - Use some other rhythm, first sliderend and second sliderhead are snapped incorrectly, and it's audible while playing.

ongaku's diff is dope

Thanks for the mod Avishay! I won't be making any changes to the beginner diff since the rhythms have been finetuned with Bakari and they work well.

Went through everything with Avishay in irc

Avishay wrote:

Okay.

[COMFORT]

1. 00:08:832 (4) - I'd CTRL+G so it keeps the square pattern intact, creates a slightly nicer pressure onto 00:09:040 (5) - since I don't get right now I feel like 00:08:832 (4) - gets too much unecessary pressure at that part of the song. Long list of reasoning aside, this is small enough that there's no real gameplay impact, there's more visual and emphasis impact in this change. So since either way works, I'll go with this one. It also makes the 3-slider pattern symmetrical and rotational, i guess.

[EXTRA]

1. 00:36:853 (1,1) - Never really liked or understood this, you might have exlpained it before on the thread, but it's too long for me to find :p So I'll appreciate an explanation. (perhaps I'm just a shitty player idk) This is a hold on the start of the first slider with another key for the start of the second. I've gotten mostly praise over these two particular sliders, as it's a way to heavily emphasize the background buildup without any movement while still having a very strong burst of speed and energy as the music "starts up again". All 1/8 timing in the map is intended to force the player to alternate. Having it be 1/4 would simply have the player tap their key on it, this has the player forcibly hold down their key. The lack of a visible slider tick causes some irritation, but I really feel this is the best way of combining what i want the player to do with what the player expects.

[HYPER]

1. 00:14:978 (1,2,1) - spacing is a bit unnecessarily huge here imo, especially for an hyper, it's misleading. Moved 2 down.
2. 00:32:999 (6,2) - I wouldn't do this in a hyper, really confusing. Rotated 2,3,4 so that 2 is clearly visible while still keeping the pattern.
3. 00:50:811 (4,5,1) - Would appreciate a bit of consistency and increasing the spacing here, since it's really close to the 1/4 spacing you had so far and far from the 1/2 one. Moved 5.
4. 01:16:436 (6,7) - This overlap is not very aesthethic. made prettier
5. 01:53:415 (1) - 15% audio like you did at higher diffs. (same for probox's and pishi's diffs. agree

[ADVANCED]

1. 00:33:520 (2) - Yeah there's beat on the reverses, tail and head, but the slider doesn't really fit imo.. The song does not ask for those reverses. Not my difficulty, but I can safely say that I disagree here, this is an alternative way of 'following' the music without forcing a normal-level player to actually need to follow the intricacies of this track's rhythms, which get really weird here. It also helpfully polarizes the rhythm so that the following two blue-tick notes feel natural.

Thanks for your time!

I'll appreciate a response on the concerns I have over the beginner difficulty.

Pew pew.

its happening! again

Cheer up!

ongaku's another is one of the map that I will be practicing for maybe a month. gj

No hype until ranked, only has 1 icon rn \o/

can we make this the biggest beatmap thread

edit: nvm there's a 41 page map right above this one

bear in mind this map has also had like 3-5 pages of spam deleted from it.... like three times.

Blue Dragon wrote:

edit: nvm there's a 41 page map right above this one

must be a really gay thread