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Camellia - Routing

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Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
I was not saying I will do what a QAT asks because it's their job, but because QAT are the only people I trust to have at least a basic understanding of mapping beyond that of people who are randomly modding maps with concepts a few years beyond their understanding. (I am not pointing a finger at kanzaki, but namely the previous DQ as well and i'm sure there are people in the future who will mod this with little to no mapping experience if it doesn't get DQ'd in like ten minutes by Fycho)

This used to be my map. But by putting the opinions of everyone else over mine, this is what you end up with.


My point regarding flow and consistency is that I am bringing my own vision of what this music should be represented as. If you disagree, we're going to disagree. If it's bad enough that the community (and by that mean the vocal minority because when you involve the community it is always the loudest voices that get the attention, not necessarily the highest volume of people) wants it to never ever be ranked because it's unacceptable to have a map that is completely different then so be it - I'll led this map grave. Ongaku has given me his blessing that if ranking this becomes to much of a stressor, to give up.

And that's what it boils down to. People wanting me to give up, rather than actually make the map better. They want it better in their own opinion, fuck my feelings.
Last edited by Shiirn , edited 2 times in total.
-Kanzaki
889 posts
Joined June 2012
-Kanzaki
It wasn't even an usual mod. I am asking about your objects but you can't answer their reasons. Which leads to they are meant to be random placed objects?
Last edited by -Kanzaki , edited 2 times in total.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Sadly, you have to make an agreement with the community, not with the QAT. They won't judge your map anymore. So better put the effort to convince people raising concerns here that this creation is fine as it is or do not try to get it Ranked.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
gonna bring my opinions on this as well:

  1. 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc.
  2. 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) -
  3. 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones.
  4. 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l
  5. 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map.
  6. Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >:
Beginner:

  1. 00:08:311 (1,2) - 1,0 spacing, but 01:06:645 (1,2) - 1,10 here, seems there is a small error
  2. 01:40:811 (1,1,2) - here too
anyways gl with this
Last edited by Natsu , edited 1 time in total.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
If my opinions are outright rejected regardless of what they are, I don't see the point. It's bothersome and tiresome to need to explain every single object's existence and what I intend to bring about by using it that way and that i need to do it multiple times is just stressful as hell.


Maybe moddingv2 will improve this since the evidence that I explained things before would be much more easily viewable. But it doesn't stop people from disagreeing just because they disagree. Does that automatically make me wrong? Why is the entire burden of proof on the mapper? That's horrifically stressful.
IamKwaN
osu! Alumni
3,905 posts
Joined August 2012
IamKwaN
Report about the map looks valid, please achieve a consensus with the community.
Stjpa
886 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa
Well that was fast...
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Natsu wrote:

gonna bring my opinions on this as well:

  1. 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc. The first click is following the same pattern as the notes before it. The 1/2 after it is following the fairly subtle 1/8 triple starting 00:26:645 - and ending 00:26:749 - and at the end of the slider. Because it'd be incredibly confusing and hard to play such a combination of clicks, it's a simple slider instead.
  2. 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) - This NC was purely for aesthetic reasons and for further emphasizing what made these four beats different. If it's directly unrankable, go call a QAT.
  3. 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones. The second one starts with the DJ scratches, the rest are all the same. Consistency issues like this are intended. You want my reasoning, you've got it. Now you can disagree with it and I'll be the one who's wrong.
  4. 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l Because the wacky slider is clearly following the scry. not every bass beat needs a click. (HEATHENRY, i know.)
  5. 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map. Originally, the "manual stacks" were different because I had a cohesive theme to the map. After the explosion of the kiai. the spacing was more rickety and less perfect because all of the energy of the song has been expended and it's now just falling apart as the song ends.
  6. Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >: name every single blanket and every single aesthetic change that provides no change to direct gameplay and i'll happily fix them if you offer to work with me to re-rank the map. Otherwise, it's clearly not important enough for either of us to get worked over on.
anyways gl with this
shARPII
osu! Alumni
926 posts
Joined April 2011
shARPII
Shiirn, can you stop whining here, take a break, go outside, deep breath and come back later.
You're just tilted and it doesn't help anyone here. Don't make me lock this :/
Arphimigon
1,650 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Another problem here is that whenever Shiirn changes something, someone else said that the change was bad and would rather it be some other way, so there isn't really a middle ground which compromises with everyone. To be honest, I think people need to actually discuss with each other and make a general list of changes where the community have compromised with each other in the first place instead of all giving Shiirn mods which are contradicting each other.

tl;dr: Can everyone discuss suggestions instead of giving them to Shiirn here since it's clustered and contradictory lots of the time.

Tuning in with discussion now~

Edit: Nevermind he removed diffs
Last edited by Arphimigon , edited 1 time in total.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn

shARPII wrote:

Shiirn, can you stop whining here, take a break, go outside, deep breath and come back later.
You're just tilted and it doesn't help anyone here. Don't make me lock this :/

You have no idea how incredibly frustrating it is to deal with people who reject your opinions and feelings offhand because they simply believe they know better. That's literally the only rationale both sides have - "I feel it is better this way" - and because they err on the side of consistency and order, I'm automatically in the wrong.
Last edited by Shiirn , edited 1 time in total.
moki_old_1
moki_old_1
I liked every version of this mapset, thanks for spending your precious time on mapping this masterpiece.

Arphimigon
1,650 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Hey Shiirn, mind putting back the diffs up so we can -try- and discuss this?
We might be able to narrow all these suggestions into something you can accept and we all agree on \o/
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Do what you like. I'll re-fill the set. I'm just so tired of explaining myself over and over only to be offhandedly brushed aside that I'm not going to bother anymore. Don't expect me to respond to every single little thing presented because that is nothing but a tactic to wear down my force of will and I'm tired of that tactic being allowed.
Ayesha Altugle
3,052 posts
Joined October 2011
Ayesha Altugle

moki wrote:

I liked every version of this mapset, thanks for spending your precious time on mapping this masterpiece.

Hi! I didn't notice you here.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Hm going from the average content of your posts here:

Are you satisfied with the Extra?
You said it doesnt feel like your map, but rather like a set of compromises sewn together to make a diff. There are people around here which are so confused about this that they are willing to go out of their way to spend their time wondering about this diff... And are met with the unwillingness to sew more compromises in, which is perfectly reasonable.

What i dont understand is why you seem to have little interest in making this map more like your vision of the song again and instead want to rank it as is for the sake of ongaku? I thought you cared more
Arphimigon
1,650 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Anyone mind summarizing the main points into one post or something along those lines? All the mods are spread out everywhere it's hard to understand.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Okorin wrote:

What i dont understand is why you seem to have little interest in making this map more like your vision of the song again and instead want to rank it as is for the sake of ongaku? I thought you cared more

I'd basically need to remap the entire song at this point. But I can't remap the song with the same feelings and vision I had to begin with because Routing has functionally changed for me. It was originally a casual-fun track that was always able to get my blood flowing and my energy levels up because it's just so EXPLOSIVE with energy, especially during the kiai. But now I'm just reminded of all the frustration and exhaustion associated with trying to rank it every time I listen to the track.

The song isn't fun for me anymore. My original vision is long gone. I couldn't remap it if I tried. I desperately tried to protect Comfort much as possible, but Extra I just don't care about and it was always just filler to make the rest of the set rankable. I was much more willing to make compromises and sew shit together in the hopes of moving the map forward.
Arcubin
689 posts
Joined September 2013
Arcubin
I'm here not to argue or something.... okay i actually like to argue.

I'm not yet checking the map tho, so i don't know if it's good or bad. But reading some comment in this thread, i can assume this map is averagely good. i do agree with Shiirn who want to keep the feel of the map. But most people here concerning to it's playability, which actually makes sense to argue IF it's actually hardly played by player.

Assuming Shiirn want to rank this, i'd like to join the disscussion (after i check this ofc) cause i found some ambigous word from each person.
Ayesha Altugle
3,052 posts
Joined October 2011
Ayesha Altugle
Sounds like you're incredibly depressed for some reason. Don't let it affect too much or else, you might not enjoy mapping the way you intend to. It's true that today's communities don't treat this one as fun because most of the time, they are enjoying maps that gives high amount of pp (but in reality they have problems with enjoying the game, something that they give low rating to maps that barely give any pp). It's true that the perspective of people today is different from back then. However, there are still people today who don't care much about pp and those people are the one who really enjoy the game. I'm just sharing my opinion here so it's your deciscion if yould accept this or not.

I'm sorry if you can't understand something about what I said. I'm not used to write something like this considering my whole personality.
shARPII
osu! Alumni
926 posts
Joined April 2011
shARPII
Please, keep this topic under control. You're here to help the mapper, not for memes (which should be on reddit or OT, if it's a good one).

I'd like to add a map isn't only a community or a mapper choice but both.
You have to learn how to use your arguments and your POV to explain properly what is the meaning of something and why you did it. If you fail here, there's probably something wrong (using "X is better than Y" or "don't kill my spirit" excuses aren't helping)

If your explanation makes sense, there's no reason to see more than 50% of users who're writing on the topic being against your opinion.
Instead of taking mods from users like a personal attack, try to put yourself in their shoes and try to understand why they think something is wrong by looking at your map with different ways.

Anyway, maps have always been approved by the community (which were represented by QATs) so you'll have to deal with it.

Good luck.
Ayesha Altugle
3,052 posts
Joined October 2011
Ayesha Altugle
Glad to have this back. Let's hope that nothing goes wrong this time. Focus on the things that can help the mapper and not to cause more drama. I'll make sure to look on the map if possible.
Last edited by Ayesha Altugle , edited 2 times in total.
Arphimigon
1,650 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Let's hope we can get some constructive comments again this time (unlike this post).
Will put my two cents later.
Side
1,127 posts
Joined October 2013
Side
Keep in mind this "50%" refers to four people out of x number of overall users even if we just take into account the intended player base. I've been keeping up with this thread since shiirn mapped this (mostly since I had asked him to map this song) and for the most part these recent suggestions have all been things that have either been modified by previous suggestions or things that have been explained before. I'm on mobile atm so I can't offer much in terms of quotes and I'll try to do this when I get back from work but all in all these are mostly things that can be dismissed. No map is perfect and neither should our expectations because we're all human and we all make mistakes (see the many ranked maps with unrankable concerns) and that's fine so there's no reason for shiirn to have to keep justifying every object in his map. My reply was deleted but my points stand.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Loctav wrote:

Sadly, you have to make an agreement with the community, not with the QAT. They won't judge your map anymore. So better put the effort to convince people raising concerns here that this creation is fine as it is or do not try to get it Ranked.
Not trying to start shit but why doesn't this apply to any HW maps?

I like this map a lot, I hate to see mappers forced to basically collab with strangers because of subjective matters. There are already tons of maps that are either turned into something completely out of the creators intention, or rotting in the graveyard, because mappers are basically forced to follow mods of the more expressive minority.

I skimmed the mods between the qualify and unqualified posts, and they're all mods that basically start with "well, to me, this is wrong..." This isn't what mapping is about. Mods should never be about trying to redesign somebody elses work, it should be about polishing it; catching out crap like snapping error or unintentional distance spikes.
Last edited by buny , edited 1 time in total.
Riven 2
Riven 2
Well everyone wants EZ pp thats why monstrata ranks his maps like a beast :^)
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Topic Starter
Shiirn
For what it's worth, the entire point of frustration on routing is that it has a lot of inconsistencies and quirks that are very obvious when modding the map and looking through it in the editor. This, combined with people combing through it at 25% and 50% speed just looking for things to point out, means that it's very, very easy to come up with a wall of text that I must them personally provide my feelings and opinions for, for every single point. This is extremely exhausting, especially considering Routing was entirely made to be intentionally inconsistent and partially "unpredictable" to fit with my vision of the music.

Nobody can deny that this track, from a musical and compositional standpoint, is weird. Camellia loves doing this kind of thing. He's very experienced and nuanced in his repeated musical patterns and how he ties them together during repeated sections and i try to represent this by having my own patterns follow his slightly different musical patterns. This does not always play well, especially not for people who are so, so, so used to boring anime and dnb tracks which have literally identical stanzas repeated 4-8 times. Camellia will have those same 4-8 stanzas start the same but connect to eachother slightly differently.


I have naught but circles, sliders, and two buttons to provide the player with this experience.


I am not taking any individual mod on this map as a personal attack, but rather as yet another bothersome chore that is being forced upon me because it basically forces me to either explain exhaustively these concepts I listed above to every single modder, as concisely as possible, every time. Can you seriously blame me for getting frustrated and stressed out? These concepts that I built Routing on, namely, intentional inconsistency and differing emphasis, are very easy to understand if people bother looking outside of their own comfort bubble. People are getting so worked up over how each individual tree looks that they're forgetting to look at the forest.


It's tiring and frustrating that people simply discard these concepts because they disagree with them, and I'm left with nothing to show for it. These are fairly advanced mapping concepts because they break the norms of "consistency mapping" (which I believe is a tool best used for newbie mappers before they start understanding how to actually map) and it's hard to explain it in bite-sized chunks for every single modder who happens to play the map like, twice.


I understand people are genuinely trying to help and that they genuinely feel like their suggestions may posit some improvement, but they really didn't in the past, and really won't in the future. Sure there are a lot that helped, but as an experienced mapper I like to pretend that I should be allowed some leeway in knowing what to accept and what to decline. I have tried time and time and time and time again to explain how I feel and how each individual working piece of the map works with others, only to have it discarded or ignored because the person I am trying to meet halfway either disagrees with the very concept or doesn't understand.

I'm just not willing to go out of my way to extend the hand of common ground on this only for them to slap my hand away without even bothering to try and see things my way just as much as I try to see things their way.

I'm not going to bother searching out QAT or BN to re-qualify this map anymore because it's fucking insane that I can spend dozens and dozens of hours working and discussing this map with dozens of people and have the entire thing shut down by a few handful of inexperienced or narrow-minded individuals. It's a massive waste of time and effort and I hope everyone who has refused to even begin to try and understand my feelings is proud of themselves for upholding their precious worldview.

If you're still reading by this point you have my utmost thanks and respect.

I'm not even asking for people to just let me do what I want. I want to discuss things rationally and in depth because that is fun. It is fun to me to discuss mapping concepts and what people are trying to do with their maps and what they're trying to do by fiddling around with patterns or hitsounds or spacing or choice of circle vs slider or beat emphasis. But it's not fun when people are attacking my map whilst constantly asking why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why because that puts all of the effort on me, the mapper, and that's not fair.


Thank you for all the support, and thank you for any constructive criticism. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm perfectly fine with how this turned out. I'm really let down by the immediate vile response, but also very uplifted by the support shown to me directly. But I'm not going to stop mapping and I'm not going to stop making maps with concepts beyond the newbie mapper toolkit of "consistency and flow".


This is my last major post unless a BN or QAT or some combination thereof is willing to push this back into qualification, and they're going to need to come to me to start it up, which isn't likely going to happen so this is likely the end.
Voli
811 posts
Joined April 2013
Voli
After reading all this I'll probably not try to rank a map ever again with these new "'community-driven" checks nobody ever wanted and nobody asked for. Seeing how ranking your map is already a very long and hard process since BNs are scarce, busy and have long queues, especially if you are an unknown mapper, the tiny amount of effort it takes for anyone to be able to DQ a map just so you can repeat the whole cycle again is just outright stupid.
Last edited by Voli , edited 1 time in total.
Arphimigon
1,650 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Tbh this would prob get DQ-ed either way from the same things, people do spam mods, QATs get attention, DQ for same reason.
No difference really \o/
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Voli wrote:

After reading all this I'll probably not try to rank a map ever again with these new "'community-driven" checks nobody ever wanted and nobody asked for. Seeing how ranking your map is already a very long and hard process, especially if you are an unknown mapper, the tiny amount of effort it takes for anyone to be able to DQ a map is just outright stupid.
Community-driven checks are not wrong, it's that the vocal community that are doing these "checks" have the wrong mindset. The vast majority of modders are people that cannot play the map as it is intended, and so can only judge a map through editor, which is a lot different than actually playing the map and actually EXPERIENCING it.

The community that we (I) want to do these checks are the people that actually play the map, so basically the top players who can comfortably complete this map. Those are the only opinions that really matter, in my eyes.

It's like letting other countries vote for the next US president; those countries aren't the ones that are affected as greatly as the US, so their opinion is much less regarded (as in they can't vote)
Last edited by buny , edited 2 times in total.
Voli
811 posts
Joined April 2013
Voli

a loli wrote:

Community-driven checks are not wrong, it's that the vocal community that are doing these "checks" have the wrong mindset. Looking at a map through editor is a lot different than actually playing the map, which is the problem with difficult maps; most of the modders can't play the map as it is intended so they base all their claims in the editor.
I agree, they are not wrong, but with the current system of ''any complaints are DQ-worthy so we can discuss first, then have fun repeating the cycle again'' it just doesn't feel worth it anymore to try to rank a map. It causes stress, worry and anger more than it has positive sides. If there was a quick way to instantly re-rank a map without having to go through all this bullshit every time, maybe then it would work.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Voli wrote:

I agree, they are not wrong, but with the current system of ''any complaints are DQ-worthy so we can discuss first, then have fun repeating the cycle again'' it just doesn't feel worth it anymore to try to rank a map. It causes stress, worry and anger more than it has positive sides. If there was a quick way to instantly re-rank a map without having to go through all this bullshit every time, maybe then it would work.
All this leads to is a chain of "have-to-do" mods, giving an end result of a map that doesn't in the slightest resemble the original.

maps that come up at the top of my head are tengaku and toumei elegy
Side
1,127 posts
Joined October 2013
Side
And see THIS is the problem. Things like this happen so often that creators are just simply discouraged and the map is left to grave meanwhile the people that caused it can go on their merry way and qats just say oh well no skin off my nose \:v/ or however that saying goes. Nothing changes and nothing will change at this rate. Safe "consistent" and "flowy" maps get ranked all the time because they're not wrong but does that immediately make maps that lack some of one or the other wrong? No and that is where the problem begins. Everyone conforms to a kind of map and expect all others to be just like it because it works but by only doing that you take away creativity all for the sake of ranking just to qualify to the "community standards "

I don't want you to give up on this shiirn but I can support if you truly feel this way and leave it up to your decision.
Voli
811 posts
Joined April 2013
Voli

a loli wrote:

All this leads to is a chain of "have-to-do" mods, giving an end result of a map that doesn't in the slightest resemble the original.

maps that come up at the top of my head are tengaku and toumei elegy
That is correct. Also the whole concept of ''coming to a concencus with the community'' isn't thought through at all since the community obviously has varying opinions seeing as it consists of completely random players, each with their own opinions. Seeing this, it is impossible to come to a good ''concensus with the community'' without transforming your map into an everchanging mess of clashing opinions. Every map has people who like and dislike it.
I think I'm done here, don't want to ramble more in a map's thread. I just felt like someone had to say it.
Nyari
328 posts
Joined January 2012
Nyari
I just don't see why people can't adapt to the community, there are songs that I don't particularly enjoy playing, then I do not play them, simple as that.

Sucks to see this cool map go into the grave much like a lot of the other great maps in this game. I hope for the sake of not only Shiirn but the rest of the community as well that this sort of "no, that is your interpretation of a map, that's not good enough for the masses"-thinking stops. It's hurting the entire community, it would have been nice to have a nice breath of fresh air coming into the game since we really haven't had any controversial maps getting ranked in standard for a long time.
Avishay
1,250 posts
Joined April 2013
Avishay
I honestly feel like the one at fault for the current state of the beatmap is the community rather than Shiirn, I bet Shiirn wants to make as many people as possible satisfied, but that's not really possible for this one.

It is good that the qualification is even more community-driven right now, but as long as mapping is an abstract subject with so many ways of interpretation, there WILL BE people that dislike a map, be it a pattern, a structure, you can't satisfy everyone, this game is different for everyone, one might like the surprising intensity changes, another one will enjoy the huge jumps, BUT CMON, people can't agree on everything, especially on such a song and unorthodox map.

Shiirn tried his best to change the difficulties in a way that will feel appropriate for most people, but people nag on stuff that were changed due to previous suggestions, in the end it is not just Shirn's map, but just a mixup of opinions that might and might not make it enjoyable for some people.

Please, if you don't want to see this ranked, if you don't like the way it is mapped, or you just simply dislike this thread, LEAVE, if you don't want to see this map appear on your browser, tell me and I'll create a script that hides it, just for you.
diraimur
547 posts
Joined December 2013
diraimur

Avishay wrote:

I honestly feel like the one at fault for the current state of the beatmap is the community rather than Shiirn, I bet Shiirn wants to make as many people as possible satisfied, but that's not really possible for this one.

It is good that the qualification is even more community-driven right now, but as long as mapping is an abstract subject with so many ways of interpretation, there WILL BE people that dislike a map, be it a pattern, a structure, you can't satisfy everyone, this game is different for everyone, one might like the surprising intensity changes, another one will enjoy the huge jumps, BUT CMON, people can't agree on everything, especially on such a song and unorthodox map.

Shiirn tried his best to change the difficulties in a way that will feel appropriate for most people, but people nag on stuff that were changed due to previous suggestions, in the end it is not just Shirn's map, but just a mixup of opinions that might and might not make it enjoyable for some people.

Please, if you don't want to see this ranked, if you don't like the way it is mapped, or you just simply dislike this thread, LEAVE, if you don't want to see this map appear on your browser, tell me and I'll create a script that hides it, just for you.
I couldn't have read every post in this thread as right now I'm kinda too busy trying to be not busy, this post has gotten my attention; and for a good reason. This is a well made post that I completely agree with. With current mindset of "mappers" or "modders" its very hard to achieve such a system.

And worst of all; the more popular map is, higher the chances more people will hate on it. And it will get to a point where you can't satisfy ANYONE; yet alone everyone. I hope a change happens soon or else things are looking in vain.
_handholding
3,109 posts
Joined April 2014
_handholding
What happened to the whole "If you don't like a map, dont play it" argument?
Arphimigon
1,650 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
It got debunked, along with:
"You don't need to be a chef to say the food is bad."
shARPII
osu! Alumni
926 posts
Joined April 2011
shARPII
Ok guys this isn't the place for a thesis about the importance of users in mappers choices.
If you want to run something more serious, create a topic here and discuss freely : 56
I'll start to remove content which aren't mods for this specific map (or helping this map) under this post.
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