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D(ABE3) - MANIERA [Taiko]

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ManP
collapsed text
Hi! A masturbation opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.


Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,any sections in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]
  1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません
  2. 00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました
[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
  1. 01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか?
    なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。
[Muzukashi]
  1. 00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい?(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
    強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです!
200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった! :3

Good luck you guys ;) ;) ;)
Topic Starter
_yu68

ManP wrote:

collapsed text
Hi! A masturbation opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.


Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,no section in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]
  1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません :arrow: 直後の1/4 ddkdkへ移行しやすいようにする意図で、この部分においては音程よりも直後のパターンと対の配色をとることを優先したいです。
  2. 00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました :arrow: 前者のみを適用しました。後者に関しては、前者を適用することで譜面の変化と音程の表現は十分だと判断したため、配色が片方に偏りすぎることを避ける意図でkkとします。

[Muzukashi]
  1. 00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい?(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
    強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです! :arrow: good, changed
200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった! :3

Good luck you guys ;) ;) ;)
ありがとうございました :3
iloveyou4ever
Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way.
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more.

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.

That's it
Good Luck >w<
Topic Starter
_yu68

iloveyou4ever wrote:

Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here :arrow: I want to focus the difference between 00:28:455 - and 00:28:599 - .
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason :arrow: same
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way. :arrow: Similarly, I'm focusing the difference between 00:33:070 - and 00:33:214 - .
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too :arrow: changed
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more. :arrow: changed
Thanks!
mangomizer

Nofool wrote:

I think a BN rule says "Being able to reasonably play a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap's quality", looking at your profile you should probably avoid the Virtuoso difficulty for now :roll:
smh Nofool, if only you knew that Skylish is armed with a BFKB meaning he is now 10x stronger than Cookiezi.

In all seriousness, I think you are underestimating the ability for people to judge maps. You don't have to necessarily be "good" to judge whether something is appropriate or not. Sure, being able to play a map helps with insight, but when it comes to things like timings and snappings, anyone with experience is qualified to give a worthwhile opinion. For example, did you know the person who mapped Uta (std) only has 3600pp?
Maya Tendo

ManP wrote:

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります

[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
  1. 01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか?
    なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。
単体で見れば悪くないですが前後に偶数連打の1/4がないため統一性の観点からなしで

200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった! :3

Good luck you guys ;) ;) ;)
k3v227
...zzz
[ Eon Fox ]

Skylish wrote:

Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.

No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.

That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).

Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.

Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.

EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.

Pattern I:



Pattern II:

ManP

k3v227 wrote:

...zzz
...zzz
Yuzeyun
you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:
[ Eon Fox ]

Unmei Muma wrote:

you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:
Osu's terms are based on 1:4 ratio for the purpose of simplification. This is shown by the fact that 4/4 time a tempi is listed as 1/4 in osu, since ♩♩♩♩ makes a whole beat in 4/4 (four crochet to a bar), but due to the fact that 4/4 is almost invariably used in osu for the sake of simplicity as it is the most common time signature, a beat is ♩, and thus the snap is to countable beats instead of to time signature (the opposite of the norm).

However, since FL studio works in beats instead of the traditional notes, just like osu, we can come to an informed conclusion about what the notes are. In order to move newly created beats to the specific area in the piano roll that is present in the screenshots, I actually had to turn off snap to 1/6 beats. If you look carefully, you'll see I was viewing it in 1/12, where 1.5 of the minimum snapped beat length (1/12) was the snap of the triplets (Id est, 1/8).

However, since 1/8 triplets are a little too much, 1/8 duplets would be the correct course of action. However, what is to be noted is that the version _yu had prior was correct in how it should be mapped. Therefore, the 8.02* version he had should be the one used, not the 7.82* version that omits these clearly audible details.

Also, I would like to note that the default of FL studio is 120BPM. It does not update to the accurate BPM until playback, and even then, only when it reaches the point at which a BPM change occurs. Since I was viewing the piano roll with playback stopped, it showed the 120 figure.
m421

iloveyou4ever wrote:

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
Thanks for mod. :)


MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.


まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。
[ Eon Fox ]

maziari1105 wrote:

iloveyou4ever wrote:

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
Thanks for mod. :)


MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.


まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。
私は同じ考え方だ。 音楽に従うことが重要です、プレイアビリティを確保することはさらに重要です!パーカッションとピアノの両方が存在するため、妥協が必要です。 しかし、1/8のノートを返す、プレイアビリティは完全に戻ってきます。うまくいけば、同様にこのことを認識BNs。

私の貧しい日本人には申し訳ありません。
Topic Starter
_yu68
update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
Skylish

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

The words of Eon Fox

Skylish wrote:

Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.

No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.

That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).

Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.

Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.

EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.

Pattern I:



Pattern II:


Firstly, I would like to clarify that: I am not aiming at popping any 1/8 doublets since they are uncommon, it's not my target at all. My focus is always on the usage and and matches of notes with music.

Speaking back to the screenshots you provided before, thanks for providing the MIDI source of Maniera which is utterly supporting my points of view in Virtuoso actually. I am pretty confident that the current usage of 1/8 doublets are mis-matched as you can see the starting points of them (Measure 27/28). It is incomprehensible for me to understand.

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
Topic Starter
_yu68
.
m421

Skylish wrote:

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
Taiko is a rhythm game, not a sequencer imo.
Isn't prioritizing picking up sound rather than fun putting the cart before the horse?
Or, do you think picking up this complex rhythm accurately is fun?
I don't mean to be rude, but I think you don't have enough playing skills to correctly evaluate this map...
Yuzeyun
my 2c



all memes aside, here's a screenshot from the official BMS chart at measure 27. (screenshot provided by ya boi) looks pretty obvious that aint some accurate 32nds shit but i don't think anyone in their right mind will put 192nds on a chart, not that it's possible to begin with.

32nd doublets are not here for strict accuracy. they are here for close accuracy. if you were to make strict accuracy, this taiko chart would be practically unplayable (as shown with the very complex and irregular triples)

this is not the whole deal, but this screenshot is representative enough of the entire pitchfuck noteshit happening for several measures. while it is about the ascending part, the same can be said about the descending part, and what follows.

if you want strict accuracy, please move to osu!mania.
Topic Starter
_yu68

_yu68 wrote:

update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
:arrow: deleted it by raiden's veto
Chromoxx
@skylish: ur confusing taiko with mania, it's not absolutely strict with snappings when playability is infringed.. there are plenty of examples for this in maps, which have high bpm 1/8 bursts in the song but are mapped as 1/6 for better playability. In this case shifting the doublets would both look and play awkwardly.
mangomizer
To those who say Maniera 1/8ths are dumb, I have this to say:

It's not really about whether the 1/8ths timings fit or not, or whether the timing position is right. Personally, it is pretty clear to me that _yu68 has mapped doublets to acknowledge the presence of a different sound (ie. grace notes). It doesn't really matter whatever snap he uses, be it 1/6th, or 1/12th. It's just the fact that doublets, in general, are effective at creating an extra layer of thickness/texture, and this is basically what _yu68 is trying to achieve - a thicker sound during the grace note sections, that is ON THE BEAT (not off), making it easy and intuitive to follow.

This is really just an "intensity" issue. Plenty of times in the past have there been examples where 1/6th + 1/4th snaps have been used to emphasise intensity, even if the music does not support it with sound effects. Why the hell should 1/8th doublets be any different?

Can we please just stop pussyfooting around and dancing around the subject, just give the poor man a break and send this map through to ranked!
Lumenite-
I'm simply going to state some facts, with an opinion sprinkled here and there.

Someone brought up Skylish isn't qualified enough to judge this map-this statement isn't completely false. "Do not nominate a beatmap if you cannot reasonably judge it. Being able to reasonably play and analyze a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap’s quality. If you are multiple tiers below the playing level of the map and do not excel with outstanding amount of experience and expertise, we may call your ability to judge it into question." The key words here are "multiple tiers below." Skylish definitely is NOT the ideal nominator to call into question the legitimacy of Virtuoso's structure, however his opinion nonetheless is still valuable, as are all opinions.

That being said, it is another fact that the 1/8 doublets plotted in this map are an attempt to emphasize the presence of grace notes. I don't need to explain what a grace note is, but I do need to emphasize the fact that quite often leaving a grace note out in a musical composition will have little to no effect on the overall effect of the music. It's quite like an ornament on a Christmas tree-it makes it look nice, but the tree can easily go without it. That is the reason that many symphonic directors in my experience will tell the band to ignore the grace note, because leaving it out will not effect the music as much as you might think.

Here's my opinion on the 1/8 usage-it's necessary, but not completely. In the first string of 1/8's the only true calling for 1/8 is for notes 00:32:926 (292,293,294,295) - . The rest sound just fine as 1/1. On the second, much longer usage however, the long 1/8 string that _yu68 has mapped cannot simply be left as 1/1-it should be left as 1/8 doublets, just as it was in the 8.06* version.

The map can use simplification FAR past what I think, and to me the 1/8 argument is simply divided half between people who want the pp and people who are striving for musical accuracy. Surely there is a way to compromise and make all parties happy without hindering someone's hard work from becoming ranked.

Good luck with the rank, _yu68.
Nardoxyribonucleic
Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.

  • [Vulkin's Kantan]
  1. 00:42:734 and 00:43:022 - consider adding k here for a more balanced spread ? Currently its gap with Futsuu is rather big due to the dense 1/1 arrangements in Futsuu.
  2. 00:45:041 (62) - you may move this note to 00:44:464 - and change to d if you apply ^ for pattern variety. Then you can add finish at 00:45:331 (63) - for better emphasis.
  3. 00:47:349 and 00:47:637 - same as 00:42:734 -
  4. 00:49:657 (72) - similar to 00:45:041 (62) - , you may move this note to 00:49:080 - and add finish at 00:49:946 (73) -
  5. 01:06:386 and 01:06:675 - similar to 00:42:734 - , adding d here would help reduce the gap.
  6. 01:14:751 and 01:15:040 - same as ^
  7. 01:18:213 and 01:18:501 - similar to ^ , adding k at these spots would work well.
  8. 01:23:694 and 01:23:982 - same as 01:06:386 -
  9. 01:53:408 - same as 00:42:734 -
  • [Futsuu]
  1. 01:12:300 - consider adding k here to make this part more interesting to play ? This would also result in a better spread with Muzukashii.
  • [Muzukashii]
  1. 00:49:512 - maybe add d here to cohere with the pattern length at 00:44:609 (2,1,2,3,1,2,1) - ?
  • [Oni]
  1. 00:24:849 (1,1) - swapping these notes to k d would help reflect the pitch decrease of piano there.
  2. 00:33:070 (1) - changing this note to d would fit the sudden pitch drop well.
  3. 01:14:175 (2,3,4,5,1,1,2,3) - similar to 00:24:849 - , maybe try k d k k d d k k here ?
  • [Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
  1. 00:02:061 - I think you need to lower the hitsound volume to about 45% so that the soft background beats would not be overemphasized.
  2. 00:02:782 - you may add a green line here with 90% volume for the drums.
  • [maziari's Hell Oni]
  1. 00:15:258 - pattern inconsistency with 00:39:488 -
  2. 00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) - I think this 1/6 pattern is really questionable as the background piano is clearly 1/4. Please consider replacing this with 1/4 kdk so that the piano could be followed in a more appropriate way.
  3. 01:10:713 (536,537,538,539,540,541,542,543,544) - similar to ^ , replacing these 1/6 notes with 1/4 kkd would be fine here.
  4. From 01:42:735 to 01:49:658 - would you mind justifying the use of 1/2 + 1/4 patterns in this session ? I think they should be mapped with 1/3 ones to respect the background music.
  • [Virtuoso]

    After some further considerations, I think you may keep the 1/8 doublets to decorate the scattered background piano although there exists possible alternatives like consecutive 1/2 big notes or longer 1/4 streams.
  1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - similar to Oni, you may change both notes to d with respect to the pitch of piano.
  2. 00:56:868 - this note could be k to serve as an increase in kat density starting from 00:54:272 - . It would be less repetitive compared to 00:55:570 (512,513,514,515,516,517) - as well.
  3. 01:00:089 (544) - maybe delete this note as mentioned in Ono's post ? This would emphasize the cymbals occurring at 00:59:897 (543,545) - nicely.
You may call me back after that~ :D
Topic Starter
_yu68

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.

  • [Futsuu]
  1. 01:12:300 - consider adding k here to make this part more interesting to play ? This would also result in a better spread with Muzukashii. :arrow: added
  • [Muzukashii]
  1. 00:49:512 - maybe add d here to cohere with the pattern length at 00:44:609 (2,1,2,3,1,2,1) - ? :arrow: added
  • [Oni]
  1. 00:24:849 (1,1) - swapping these notes to k d would help reflect the pitch decrease of piano there. :arrow: changed only 00:24:849 (1) - to k in order to emphasize 00:25:137 -
  2. 00:33:070 (1) - changing this note to d would fit the sudden pitch drop well. :arrow: i would keep in order to make ease of playing next 1/4
  3. 01:14:175 (2,3,4,5,1,1,2,3) - similar to 00:24:849 - , maybe try k d k k d d k k here ? :arrow: changed
  • [Virtuoso]

    After some further considerations, I think you may keep the 1/8 doublets to decorate the scattered background piano although there exists possible alternatives like consecutive 1/2 big notes or longer 1/4 streams.
  1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - similar to Oni, you may change both notes to d with respect to the pitch of piano. :arrow: same as oni, i'd keep it for ease of playing
  2. 00:56:868 - this note could be k to serve as an increase in kat density starting from 00:54:272 - . It would be less repetitive compared to 00:55:570 (512,513,514,515,516,517) - as well. :arrow: changed
  3. 01:00:089 (544) - maybe delete this note as mentioned in Ono's post ? This would emphasize the cymbals occurring at 00:59:897 (543,545) - nicely. :arrow: considering the flow, i think it's better to follow the piano rather than the cymbal (since 00:58:383 (531,532) - 00:59:248 (538,539) - etc are following piano)
You may call me back after that~ :D
Thanks mod :3
m421

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

  • [maziari's Hell Oni]
  1. 00:15:258 - pattern inconsistency with 00:39:488 -
    >changed 00:39:488: to same rhythm as 00:15:258: .
  2. 00:25:570 (193,194,195,196) - I think this 1/6 pattern is really questionable as the background piano is clearly 1/4. Please consider replacing this with 1/4 kdk so that the piano could be followed in a more appropriate way.
    >Surely each sound is 1/4, but if listen as a continuous sound, this sounds like a glissando. So to express it, 1/6 is necessary imo.
  3. 01:10:713 (536,537,538,539,540,541,542,543,544) - similar to ^ , replacing these 1/6 notes with 1/4 kkd would be fine here.
    >01:11:867: ~ is climax part, so I raised before there density the most intelligent means of excitement, also to distinguish the rhythm with 01:11:434 (549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559):, I think this 1/6 is necessary.
  4. From 01:42:735 to 01:49:658 - would you mind justifying the use of 1/2 + 1/4 patterns in this session ? I think they should be mapped with 1/3 ones to respect the background music.
    >In this difficulty, I picked up sound percussion rhythm mainly. This is consistent. So suddenly picking up the sound of a only piano by ignoring the percussion rhythm is unnatural imo. Also since the flow to here has been raised by the percussion rhythm, so connecting percussion rhythm is natural.
.osu
osu file format v14

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Vulkin

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

Here is the follow-through mod for the whole set after the heated discussion.

  • [Vulkin's Kantan]
  1. 00:42:734 and 00:43:022 - consider adding k here for a more balanced spread ? Currently its gap with Futsuu is rather big due to the dense 1/1 arrangements in Futsuu. Added
  2. 00:45:041 (62) - you may move this note to 00:44:464 - and change to d if you apply ^ for pattern variety. Then you can add finish at 00:45:331 (63) - for better emphasis.Changed, although i changed some previous notes, because although i like variety, note position consistency is something that i would like for it to remain.
  3. 00:47:349 and 00:47:637 - same as 00:42:734 - ^
  4. 00:49:657 (72) - similar to 00:45:041 (62) - , you may move this note to 00:49:080 - and add finish at 00:49:946 (73) - Done
  5. 01:06:386 and 01:06:675 - similar to 00:42:734 - , adding d here would help reduce the gap. Added in other places but on the same section
  6. 01:14:751 and 01:15:040 - same as ^Added
  7. 01:18:213 and 01:18:501 - similar to ^ , adding k at these spots would work well. Added, i hope they wont be nuisance for lack of break though o-o
  8. 01:23:694 and 01:23:982 - same as 01:06:386 - I added something at 01:26:001 - & 01:26:290 - so it maintains consistency (same piano pattern), and deleted 01:27:444 - 01:28:598 - to give a break accordingly
  9. 01:53:408 - same as 00:42:734 - added
You may call me back after that~ :D
Thanks for the mod ^^

Magic Box
osu file format v14

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TitleUnicode:MANIERA
Artist:D(ABE3)
ArtistUnicode:D(ABE3)
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Version:Vulkin's Kantan
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Tags:abe yuta vulkin mrriichi maziari1105 maziari bof2011 dwmω encore piano
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256,192,42446,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,58310,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,59176,1,0,0:0:0:0:
32,32,59753,2,0,B|480:32|480:32|480:352|480:352|384:352,1,840
256,192,62060,5,12,0:0:0:0:
256,192,62348,12,0,63790,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,64656,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,65521,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,66675,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,67829,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,68406,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,69560,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,77637,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,78501,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,79367,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,79945,1,12,0:0:0:0:
256,192,81098,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,82252,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,83406,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,83694,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,85137,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,85714,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,86001,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,86290,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,86868,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,88022,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,89751,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,90328,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,90905,1,8,0:0:0:0:
480,32,91482,2,0,B|32:32|32:32|32:96,1,480
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256,192,98120,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,99562,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,100428,1,8,0:0:0:0:
32,32,101581,2,0,B|448:32|448:32,1,360
256,192,102735,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,103601,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,104178,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,105043,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,105908,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,107927,1,8,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,109080,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,114274,1,12,0:0:0:0:
256,192,114851,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,116581,1,12,0:0:0:0:
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256,192,117735,1,12,0:0:0:0:
256,192,118889,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,192,119538,1,8,0:0:0:0:
256,192,120223,12,0,121105,0:0:0:0:
[ Eon Fox ]

Skylish wrote:

Firstly, I would like to clarify that: I am not aiming at popping any 1/8 doublets since they are uncommon, it's not my target at all. My focus is always on the usage and and matches of notes with music.

Speaking back to the screenshots you provided before, thanks for providing the MIDI source of Maniera which is utterly supporting my points of view in Virtuoso actually. I am pretty confident that the current usage of 1/8 doublets are mis-matched as you can see the starting points of them (Measure 27/28). It is incomprehensible for me to understand.

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
I disagree.

First off, you claimed your focus is "always on the usage of and matches of with music (I'm assuming that's what that tragedy of a sentence says)". This clearly is not the case. The 1/8s are a reduction from 96th triplets (in osu terminology, 1/12 triplets), using the secondary and tertiary notes in each triplet, which makes for 1/8 duplets. You cannot reduce that to 1/6 doublets, because that loses 33% of the notes for no reason. That matches nothing.

Second, the MIDI in no way supports your very flawed viewpoints. Your "pretty confident" conclusion is completely counter to what both the full MIDI and base reductive melody of the MIDI state with provable and tangible computer data, and such data was independently verified by Gezo's waveform analysis. There are definitively 1/8 duplets occupying the space at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - , and this has been proven by two separate users using perfectly precise computers.

Your hunch is in no way superior in weight to empirical computer data, and you yourself said that it is incomprehensible for you to understand. That would be because you lack the knowledge to understand the underlying concepts at work. Perhaps your most egregious statement is when you stated, "Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations."

I can hardly put into words how much I disagree. The common sense and expectations of the player ARE that what they see and play matches the music. That is the entire point of a rhythm game: players work on the assumption the music and the gameplay elements are happening in synchronicity. The song very clearly calls for 1/8 duplets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - , and only an imbecile would believe otherwise in the fact of overwhelming data.

That sudden shift to 1/6 for two notes (with four heard) is absurd and awkward.
[ Eon Fox ]

_yu68 wrote:

_yu68 wrote:

update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
:arrow: deleted it by raiden's veto
そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。 私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。 あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります!
Topic Starter
_yu68

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。 私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。 あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります!
I'm understanding it.
However, in order to re-add 1/8 doublets, I need to find a nominator who agree it.
No change for now. Sorry.
[ Eon Fox ]

_yu68 wrote:

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

そして私はあなたに尋ねる、それらを返す。 私を含め何人かが、1/8ダブレットの存在のために実質的な証拠を与えました。 SkylishとRaidenはここで間違いがあります。 あなたはそれらの1/8ダブレットなしManieraをランク付けした場合には、マッパーとして、そして太鼓コミュニティにあなたに大きな害になります!
I'm understanding it.
However, in order to re-add 1/8 doublets, I need to find a nominator who agree it.
No change for now. Sorry.
私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。 どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。 私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。
Topic Starter
_yu68

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。 どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。 私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。
I guess they don't have time to recheck it.
Skylish
I have no idea how the modders/ passers-by check my previous mods, but probably they get the wrong idea all the time, smh.

If yu thinks that 1/8 doublets starting on the on-beat is smoother and sounds better, then just do that. However it does not affect a single word in my suggestion, I am okay with yu's new arrangement once he can explain the rationale behind. (and he did it for several times already I guess, including the one with Raiden's)

Still, asking for someone who suggest concrete ideas to shut up and go away is kinda ignorant and dumb. Making any unnecessary personal attack does not help the map at all, unless you think neglect any impt suggestions is a good deed.

From now one, good luck on the ranking process. 頑張ります!
Vulkin
is this the end of drama?

please be it...
zigizigiefe
When I play Virtuoso first time, I was thinking what yumuya emphasized grace notes with. I thought it would be finisher, 1/4 stream or just 1/2 snapped notes. I saw 1/8 doublets and said "Oh my god.If the mapper was me, I would not think to map here like that". They fit perfectly and create clear structure. If there were finishers, 1/4 or 1/2 snapped notes, it would not fit at all. People criticized this part because they thought it was for free pp. That's why there was heated discussion. So can you guys give suggestion which will IMPROVE the map (the map doesn't need modding or suggestion now,too late lol)? When you try to find another ways instead of 1/8 doublets due to "free pp", it's getting more ridiculous.

Well,I did not write it to insult anyone or imply anything. I just wanted to write it to relax, because it will get more complex if you guys continue finding mistakes stubbornly.Anyway,good luck yumuya!
Maya Tendo

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

  • [Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
  1. 00:02:061 - I think you need to lower the hitsound volume to about 45% so that the soft background beats would not be overemphasized.
  2. 00:02:782 - you may add a green line here with 90% volume for the drums.
    no change because same reason as this
You may call me back after that~ :D
no change
[ Eon Fox ]

_yu68 wrote:

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

私はSuronoやTatsukeがそれを指名してくれると喜んでいると確信しています。 どちらもBNであり、どちらもVirtuosoのようであり、両方ともRaidenよりも説得しやすい。 私はTatsukeをお勧めします。彼は1/8ダブレットの決定をサポートしているだけでなく、マップも好きです。
I guess they don't have time to recheck it.
私はTasukeと話しただけで、彼は1/8ダブレットが返されたら彼がマップを指名する意思があると述べた。
yuzu__rinrin
Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W
Topic Starter
_yu68

yuzu__rinrin wrote:

Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W
fixed.
Vulkin

yuzu__rinrin wrote:

Kantan
00:49:368 (72,73) - Concurrent object, fix please. W
sorry for doing that ;_;
thanks _yu68 for fixing it
Surono
Yeh I have time but not really interest too since this is a mapset, thought is this hell discussion are about pp 1/8 pattern? even Im fine with that lol really, maziari quote gg "Taiko is a rhythm game, not a sequencer imo.". well I let those people who are good at checking spread/rest section density each lower diffs because I saw in discord bns/qat discussion are mostly about patterning/structure with rhythmical or spread issues i guess, if I checking this yeah I will took many time to do it and I had my own interest for other maps tho

good luck with the ranking process and people who are support this map!
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