forum

D(ABE3) - MANIERA [Taiko]

posted
Total Posts
291
show more
Topic Starter
_yu68

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

Placeholder for recheck. I will look into it when I have time.
Thanks.
[ Eon Fox ]
追加してくださいドンに 00:36:423 (342) - そしてまた 00:36:532 (343,344) - . 流れはずっと良いです。
Topic Starter
_yu68

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

追加してくださいドンに 00:36:423 (342) - そしてまた 00:36:532 (343,344) - . 流れはずっと良いです。 :arrow: I keep it because the piano sounds are weak. Also, in order to prevent the 1/8 pattern becoming too long.
OnosakiHito
Some words about the 1/8 since many people discuss in general about it and are actually not sure what to think about them or often argue with the fun factor which has no place here. There was already some discussion for this in thread as well, but only about the possibility to have 1/8, but none which gives actually new ideas for other solutions without 1/8.

As previously said, the intention of the mapper, trying to catch the grace notes, is pretty clear. However, going more in depth, the Virtuoso difficulty can be doubted in this matter since the snapping of these notes can't be clearly indentified and make the 1/8 not very accurate. Due to this, before considering any fun factors or the mapper's intention following the unique sound, we should look at what other solutions we can bring up and compare it to current ones because, before this goes anywhere near qualification, we will have to talk about this and find a real agreement / conclusion (Nardo wants to say something about it as it seems).

00:32:060 - Three examples of patterns which are more accurate to the song than current 1/8.
(following the drums in the background, HL'd note = finisher)
(following the drums, alternating patterns with pitch of piano)
(following piano with finishers, grace notes get emphasized by the longer tone of finishers)

00:34:368 - Some other examples for the longer 1/8 part.
(following the drums)
(following drums and make the 1/6 feel more consistent with additional improvised 1/6)
(following notes with finishers)

>> For the lazy guys: Download to all three examples<<<

Overall, for me it boils down to having better solutions than the currently inaccurate 1/8. The 1/6+1/2 follows more accurate the drum while the finisher solution actually compensates the loss of 1/8 and goes well with the piano(also it feels kind the same playing 1/8 or finishers, but that's just me lol). To be fair tho, the 1/8 are consistent in itself and do not seem to bother that much sound wise or when playing. Yet, this should be probably discussed with some more people and consider more solutions before we consider going with 1/8. Afterall, everyone talks only about 1/8 but no one suggests or tries something else.

So yeah, I encourage everyone to help activily in this matter and test stuff out to find either a middle-way, better solutions or even go for the 1/8.


On another note, I will give later a comment about your answer to my mod, _yu.
Kin
Another opinion is here I guess.

From what Ono said, I think, following the drum shouldn't be an option in this case. The diff is following the piano so much, that'll just be more inconsistent.
also, even tho, the note density from ono's example are still higher than the Hell Oni, the SR is quite a problem here.

Aside from this, here is my opinion about it : all 1/8 such as 00:32:060 (286,287,288,289,290,291,292,293,294,295,296,297,298,299,300,301) - are clearly following the piano which are 1/12 or 1/16. I personally find it okay, since, I don't think playing 1/16 or 1/12 this way is "this fun". (it's even skipping the glissando here 00:32:902 - ).

According to how he mapped those weird 1/16~1/12 piano as 1/8. I'd say, it's already a "midway solution". A midway of a midway would be quite weird. I'd say, the current one is ok.

[]

Aside from this, on Virtuoso, how about this 01:01:628 (558,559,560,561,562) - . I think, it goes better with the piano acceleration.
Surono
me nub explain

00:49:873 - at least add here notes bcus follow piano, the piano is 1/6 but use 1/4 instead if you dont like xxxxxxx 1/6

01:01:628 - like Kin said, 01:01:772 - 1/6 sounds. you can change the colors pattern to dd(kkkd) to give neat increasing emphasis with the paino, more easier tho

1/8 is oki, I already pointd out 00:36:387 (341,342) - these as single notes b4.

bye gl
Skylish
Actually I was supposed to post with concerns about 1/8 usages but not timing issues lol, anyway.... (No KDS)

[Virtuoso]

! 00:35:522 - From this timing onwards, those 1/8 douplets are virtual *they are overmapped. The background music does not have 1/8 anymore. The whole 1/8 usage structure can be justified from barline:

> 00:32:060 - 1 bar full of 1/8

> 00:34:368 - ^, and that's all for 1/8.

> 00:36:676 - / 00:37:253 - These can be Finishers now when you remove all unnecessary 1/8 douplets.

! These 1/8 are all wrongly placed. The WHOLE douplets are put 1/8 too early. For example, 00:32:205 (288,289) - should be actually starting at 00:32:169 - *oh wait Skylish if I do so then the spacing between the patterns at 00:32:060 - will not be enough. --> no worry

! 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - Strong piano chords are performed, you may use D/K respectively to represent it well. Not only stating the chords, but also polishing the overall patterns' outlooks (talking about consistent metronome Finishers)

! 00:31:880 - / 00:34:188 - actually there are 1/8 douplets here, you can alrady use ONE 1/8 douplets here to act as a little warning for the players for the upcoming hellish 1/8 spamming.

tl;dr, my suggestion is that:

- 00:32:060 (287) -

> You can see those 1/8 douplets are now all snapped correctly to the right timings in the photo.

- 00:34:368 (314) -

> It's completely the same logic with 00:32:060 (287) -

[]


Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
Ulqui

Skylish wrote:

Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
Will be pp whenever double time is used :^)

(?
Nofool

Skylish wrote:

Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
I think a BN rule says "Being able to reasonably play a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap's quality", looking at your profile you should probably avoid the Virtuoso difficulty for now :roll:

The few people here qualified to do so already gave their opinions :P

MMzz wrote:

Virtuoso is fine the way it is except all of the 1/8 doubles the difficulty originally had should come back.

This map was fine before it got modded to hell. :(
Good luck yu <3
Surono
at least he tried to pointd out some related to song, not just about being able to play the map...

mrichi you orz.........


edit:

ahh.... why PP PEPES peep
nakanotsu nimi
maniera is for pp, why are we still modding this ? ૮( ᵒ̌▱๋ᵒ̌ )ა
TKS
suggesting that delete 1/8 part makes yu68 wanna delete the mapset instead😣 im gay btw😣
Topic Starter
_yu68

OnosakiHito wrote:

Some words about the 1/8 since many people discuss in general about it and are actually not sure what to think about them or often argue with the fun factor which has no place here. There was already some discussion for this in thread as well, but only about the possibility to have 1/8, but none which gives actually new ideas for other solutions without 1/8.

As previously said, the intention of the mapper, trying to catch the grace notes, is pretty clear. However, going more in depth, the Virtuoso difficulty can be doubted in this matter since the snapping of these notes can't be clearly indentified and make the 1/8 not very accurate. Due to this, before considering any fun factors or the mapper's intention following the unique sound, we should look at what other solutions we can bring up and compare it to current ones because, before this goes anywhere near qualification, we will have to talk about this and find a real agreement / conclusion (Nardo wants to say something about it as it seems).

00:32:060 - Three examples of patterns which are more accurate to the song than current 1/8.
(following the drums in the background, HL'd note = finisher)
(following the drums, alternating patterns with pitch of piano)
(following piano with finishers, grace notes get emphasized by the longer tone of finishers)
:arrow: The map is consistenty following the rhythm of piano, so suddenly following the rhythm of drum in this part is strange.
Also, finishers will emphasize one strong sound like cymbal, so I think it's not suitable for grace notes.


00:34:368 - Some other examples for the longer 1/8 part.
(following the drums)
(following drums and make the 1/6 feel more consistent with additional improvised 1/6)
(following notes with finishers)
:arrow: I keep it for same reasons.

>> For the lazy guys: Download to all three examples<<<

Overall, for me it boils down to having better solutions than the currently inaccurate 1/8. The 1/6+1/2 follows more accurate the drum while the finisher solution actually compensates the loss of 1/8 and goes well with the piano(also it feels kind the same playing 1/8 or finishers, but that's just me lol). To be fair tho, the 1/8 are consistent in itself and do not seem to bother that much sound wise or when playing. Yet, this should be probably discussed with some more people and consider more solutions before we consider going with 1/8. Afterall, everyone talks only about 1/8 but no one suggests or tries something else.

So yeah, I encourage everyone to help activily in this matter and test stuff out to find either a middle-way, better solutions or even go for the 1/8.


On another note, I will give later a comment about your answer to my mod, _yu.

Kin wrote:

Another opinion is here I guess.

From what Ono said, I think, following the drum shouldn't be an option in this case. The diff is following the piano so much, that'll just be more inconsistent.
also, even tho, the note density from ono's example are still higher than the Hell Oni, the SR is quite a problem here.

Aside from this, here is my opinion about it : all 1/8 such as 00:32:060 (286,287,288,289,290,291,292,293,294,295,296,297,298,299,300,301) - are clearly following the piano which are 1/12 or 1/16. I personally find it okay, since, I don't think playing 1/16 or 1/12 this way is "this fun". (it's even skipping the glissando here 00:32:902 - ).

According to how he mapped those weird 1/16~1/12 piano as 1/8. I'd say, it's already a "midway solution". A midway of a midway would be quite weird. I'd say, the current one is ok.

[]

Aside from this, on Virtuoso, how about this 01:01:628 (558,559,560,561,562) - . I think, it goes better with the piano acceleration. :arrow: good, changed

Surono wrote:

me nub explain

00:49:873 - at least add here notes bcus follow piano, the piano is 1/6 but use 1/4 instead if you dont like xxxxxxx 1/6 :arrow: I think it need to make 1/2 to emphasize 00:49:945 - here.

01:01:628 - like Kin said, 01:01:772 - 1/6 sounds. you can change the colors pattern to dd(kkkd) to give neat increasing emphasis with the paino, more easier tho :arrow: I applied Kin's suggestion, because I want to make a pattern in which d stepwise increases.

1/8 is oki, I already pointd out 00:36:387 (341,342) - these as single notes b4.

bye gl

Skylish wrote:

Actually I was supposed to post with concerns about 1/8 usages but not timing issues lol, anyway.... (No KDS)

[Virtuoso]

! 00:35:522 - From this timing onwards, those 1/8 douplets are virtual *they are overmapped. The background music does not have 1/8 anymore. The whole 1/8 usage structure can be justified from barline:

> 00:32:060 - 1 bar full of 1/8

> 00:34:368 - ^, and that's all for 1/8.

> 00:36:676 - / 00:37:253 - These can be Finishers now when you remove all unnecessary 1/8 douplets.
:arrow: The background music does have sounds like 1/8. Please listen the song again.

! These 1/8 are all wrongly placed. The WHOLE douplets are put 1/8 too early. For example, 00:32:205 (288,289) - should be actually starting at 00:32:169 - *oh wait Skylish if I do so then the spacing between the patterns at 00:32:060 - will not be enough. --> no worry
:arrow: About this, I mentioned in reply to Raiden's mod. -> https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6021511

! 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - Strong piano chords are performed, you may use D/K respectively to represent it well. Not only stating the chords, but also polishing the overall patterns' outlooks (talking about consistent metronome Finishers)
:arrow: The map follows consistent the piano. I would like to take a policy to follow the piano unless the sounds of piano is drowned out by the sounds of drum.

! 00:31:880 - / 00:34:188 - actually there are 1/8 douplets here, you can alrady use ONE 1/8 douplets here to act as a little warning for the players for the upcoming hellish 1/8 spamming.
:arrow: I might add it if it's not unrankable.

tl;dr, my suggestion is that:

- 00:32:060 (287) -

> You can see those 1/8 douplets are now all snapped correctly to the right timings in the photo.
:arrow: I keep it because of same reason as 00:32:205 (288,289) - .

- 00:34:368 (314) -

> It's completely the same logic with 00:32:060 (287) -
:arrow: Same.

[]


Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
:arrow: This is not overmapping. Current 1/8 doublets is the best pattern I concluded after much consideration. It never only for pp.
Thanks for many suggestions.
Topic Starter
_yu68
.
Skylish
I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.


2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.
Hanjamon
Well, i think it's normal that the mapper wants to keep these 1/8 to "fit" the piano, in my case, probably they aren't very confortable to play, but tell me, how many rankeds maps has a spam of 1/8 doublets? we don't usually play these kind of maps, and as tasuke said previously, people seems to like the map (even if some people like it for the pp), mapping isn't just adding notes and that's it, sometimes you can be creative as long as it fits with the song.

In conclusion, at least for me, i would keep these 1/8.
Arrival
To Skylish mod :

Finishers with 1/8 are an absolute no go, as it has been tested already during Raiden's bubble pop and playing / looking awfully. And when he says "piano" OF COURSE he is talking about the chords XD.

In this map yu wants to bring the 1/8 concept to the players and using MANIERA has a support for this concept. He is more mapping a difficulty than the song, otherwise we would have 1/32th or 1/16th....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The map is fun to play for an experienced player and to watch, and the 1/8 are matching pretty well as a good middle ground between PLAYABLITY AND MUSICAL FITTING.

People are crying over it and looking to change it just because the SR is 7.8... And as we say SR shouldn't be taken into account when it comes to qualifying a map.

My 2 cents.
Topic Starter
_yu68

Skylish wrote:

I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.
:arrow: Nope, I insisted that "I am taking a policy to match the atmosphere of piano rather than matching it completely with the sound of the piano". (Perhaps this is misunderstood because my English is not fluent.)

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.
:arrow: I can't agree in terms of game-play. In a dense snap like 1/8, I think that the player will feel rhythm at the start point rather than not the end point of the patterns. It may not be so in a map which 1/8 is mainly used. At least in this map, many players will feel the rhythm at start points of 1/8s.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.
:arrow: Taiko is a game. Rather than following music theory, map should be considered for players.


2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!
:arrow: In the same way, I keep it to match the atmosphere of piano, and in order to be comfortable the game-play.

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.
qoot8123
Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat.

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap :)
Skylish
Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
Topic Starter
_yu68

qoot8123 wrote:

Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.
:arrow: I almost changed but I putted d at 00:59:897 - because I want to emphasize base sound at here. I also think it will make the natural flow to the next 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/6 stream.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat. :arrow: fixed the timing point

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap :)
Thanks!
Felt7z
Good morning, yu.

[Virtuoso]
気になった点があったのでちょっと文句言いに来ました!w

00:28:479 -
00:30:786 -
00:31:940 -
00:34:248 -
この4箇所に1/8として音符が置かれていない(過去のmodで削除された?)理由が分かりません。
ピアノ音に合わせるために1/8を使うなら、その方針で統一するためにこの4箇所にも音符を追加する必要があるはずです。逆にこれを追加しなければ正しく音取りをしているとは言えず、1/8を含んだ配置の正当性を主張する上での根拠に欠けると思います。

あと個人的な好みなんですが、もし1/8を新たに追加した場合は、音階の関係で 00:31:916 のとこはdd、00:31:916 (285) のとこはkkのほうが音に合っているような気がします。

議論ややこしくしてすみませんが時間があるとき適当にお返事ください ;)
Topic Starter
_yu68

Felt7z wrote:

Good morning, yu.

[Virtuoso]
気になった点があったのでちょっと文句言いに来ました!w

00:28:479 -
00:30:786 -
00:31:940 -
00:34:248 -
この4箇所に1/8として音符が置かれていない(過去のmodで削除された?)理由が分かりません。
ピアノ音に合わせるために1/8を使うなら、その方針で統一するためにこの4箇所にも音符を追加する必要があるはずです。逆にこれを追加しなければ正しく音取りをしているとは言えず、1/8を含んだ配置の正当性を主張する上での根拠に欠けると思います。
:arrow: 上記2つに関して、 00:28:310 - 00:30:618 - この2音のそれぞれの主張が強く、その直後にあるピアノの音の雰囲気は打ち消されているように感じます。好みの問題かもしれませんが、ここは1/8を置かない方が自然に感じました。
残りの2つに関して、こちらは確かに1/8が適するような雰囲気を感じますが 00:32:060 - 00:34:368 - この2つをそれぞれ強調する意図も兼ねて小節線の場所から1/8を開始しています。別のmodderに再度指摘されたら変更するかもしれません。

あと個人的な好みなんですが、もし1/8を新たに追加した場合は、音階の関係で 00:31:916 のとこはdd、00:31:916 (285) のとこはkkのほうが音に合っているような気がします。

議論ややこしくしてすみませんが時間があるとき適当にお返事ください ;)
ありがとうございました。
ManP
collapsed text
Hi! A masturbation opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.


Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,any sections in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]
  1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません
  2. 00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました
[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
  1. 01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか?
    なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。
[Muzukashi]
  1. 00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい?(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
    強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです!
200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった! :3

Good luck you guys ;) ;) ;)
Topic Starter
_yu68

ManP wrote:

collapsed text
Hi! A masturbation opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.


Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,no section in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]
  1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません :arrow: 直後の1/4 ddkdkへ移行しやすいようにする意図で、この部分においては音程よりも直後のパターンと対の配色をとることを優先したいです。
  2. 00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました :arrow: 前者のみを適用しました。後者に関しては、前者を適用することで譜面の変化と音程の表現は十分だと判断したため、配色が片方に偏りすぎることを避ける意図でkkとします。

[Muzukashi]
  1. 00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい?(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
    強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです! :arrow: good, changed
200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった! :3

Good luck you guys ;) ;) ;)
ありがとうございました :3
iloveyou4ever
Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way.
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more.

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.

That's it
Good Luck >w<
Topic Starter
_yu68

iloveyou4ever wrote:

Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here :arrow: I want to focus the difference between 00:28:455 - and 00:28:599 - .
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason :arrow: same
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way. :arrow: Similarly, I'm focusing the difference between 00:33:070 - and 00:33:214 - .
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too :arrow: changed
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more. :arrow: changed
Thanks!
mangomizer

Nofool wrote:

I think a BN rule says "Being able to reasonably play a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap's quality", looking at your profile you should probably avoid the Virtuoso difficulty for now :roll:
smh Nofool, if only you knew that Skylish is armed with a BFKB meaning he is now 10x stronger than Cookiezi.

In all seriousness, I think you are underestimating the ability for people to judge maps. You don't have to necessarily be "good" to judge whether something is appropriate or not. Sure, being able to play a map helps with insight, but when it comes to things like timings and snappings, anyone with experience is qualified to give a worthwhile opinion. For example, did you know the person who mapped Uta (std) only has 3600pp?
Maya Tendo

ManP wrote:

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります

[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]
  1. 01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか?
    なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。
単体で見れば悪くないですが前後に偶数連打の1/4がないため統一性の観点からなしで

200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった! :3

Good luck you guys ;) ;) ;)
k3v227
...zzz
[ Eon Fox ]

Skylish wrote:

Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.

No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.

That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).

Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.

Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.

EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.

Pattern I:



Pattern II:

ManP

k3v227 wrote:

...zzz
...zzz
Yuzeyun
you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:
[ Eon Fox ]

Unmei Muma wrote:

you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:
Osu's terms are based on 1:4 ratio for the purpose of simplification. This is shown by the fact that 4/4 time a tempi is listed as 1/4 in osu, since ♩♩♩♩ makes a whole beat in 4/4 (four crochet to a bar), but due to the fact that 4/4 is almost invariably used in osu for the sake of simplicity as it is the most common time signature, a beat is ♩, and thus the snap is to countable beats instead of to time signature (the opposite of the norm).

However, since FL studio works in beats instead of the traditional notes, just like osu, we can come to an informed conclusion about what the notes are. In order to move newly created beats to the specific area in the piano roll that is present in the screenshots, I actually had to turn off snap to 1/6 beats. If you look carefully, you'll see I was viewing it in 1/12, where 1.5 of the minimum snapped beat length (1/12) was the snap of the triplets (Id est, 1/8).

However, since 1/8 triplets are a little too much, 1/8 duplets would be the correct course of action. However, what is to be noted is that the version _yu had prior was correct in how it should be mapped. Therefore, the 8.02* version he had should be the one used, not the 7.82* version that omits these clearly audible details.

Also, I would like to note that the default of FL studio is 120BPM. It does not update to the accurate BPM until playback, and even then, only when it reaches the point at which a BPM change occurs. Since I was viewing the piano roll with playback stopped, it showed the 120 figure.
m421

iloveyou4ever wrote:

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
Thanks for mod. :)


MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.


まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。
[ Eon Fox ]

maziari1105 wrote:

iloveyou4ever wrote:

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.
Thanks for mod. :)


MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.


まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。
私は同じ考え方だ。 音楽に従うことが重要です、プレイアビリティを確保することはさらに重要です!パーカッションとピアノの両方が存在するため、妥協が必要です。 しかし、1/8のノートを返す、プレイアビリティは完全に戻ってきます。うまくいけば、同様にこのことを認識BNs。

私の貧しい日本人には申し訳ありません。
Topic Starter
_yu68
update: added 1/8 doublets at 00:36:423 - and 00:36:568 - based on some people's post.
Skylish

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

The words of Eon Fox

Skylish wrote:

Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
I think something needs to be said on this point, because this issue is really being danced around.

No matter who is looking at Virtuoso, the objections almost always are concerning the 1/8 doublets. There's one problem, however. Whenever I see BNs and QATs trying to justify their raised concerns, it seems like a lot of the time that the only real argument that is being pushed is simply that 1/8 doublets aren't common in Taiko.

That doesn't feel like an actually rational and/or valid reasoning, because not terribly long ago, 1/4 and 1/6 being in the same stream was viewed as verboten. True, Taiko is a mode that doesn't need excessive evolution, but this isn't something new or even that extreme, since both RoR's and FoTS' Tatsujins use it (the latter VERY questionably).

Now, I have taken the liberty of looking at a direct MIDI version of Maniera, and to be frankly honest, it's actually 1/8 triplets being played on the piano, and they are most certainly not grace notes, as they are actually supposed to be... *drumroll*... a 1/8 triplet followed by 1/8 duplets (as _yu had correctly done at the measures 27 and 28) and, shortly afterward, a long stream of 1/8 triplets that is followed by 1/8 duplets. Seeing as how 1/8 duplets rustled some jimmies already, I can't imagine you'd want to have 1/8 triplets.

Now, you might be wondering just how I know this is 1/8 and not 1/6. Simply put, it wouldn't snap correctly to the notes at 1/6. The patterns for both I can give full detail of B:S:T and note plus octaves upon request. It appears that yu actually went for the simplified route and left out the highest note for each. So if anyone still wants to stand by the notion that _yu's decision to map the 1/8 triples is in question regarding its validity, I will be more than happy to thoroughly ream your argument apart by providing extensive evidence that is in _yu's favour.

EDIT: Pics of MIDI, at the request of Chromoxx.

Pattern I:



Pattern II:


Firstly, I would like to clarify that: I am not aiming at popping any 1/8 doublets since they are uncommon, it's not my target at all. My focus is always on the usage and and matches of notes with music.

Speaking back to the screenshots you provided before, thanks for providing the MIDI source of Maniera which is utterly supporting my points of view in Virtuoso actually. I am pretty confident that the current usage of 1/8 doublets are mis-matched as you can see the starting points of them (Measure 27/28). It is incomprehensible for me to understand.

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
Topic Starter
_yu68
.
m421

Skylish wrote:

Taiko is more like a base matching with the music, rather than just a game mode fitting players' common senses and expectations.
Taiko is a rhythm game, not a sequencer imo.
Isn't prioritizing picking up sound rather than fun putting the cart before the horse?
Or, do you think picking up this complex rhythm accurately is fun?
I don't mean to be rude, but I think you don't have enough playing skills to correctly evaluate this map...
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply