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posted
追加してくださいドンに 00:36:423 (342) - そしてまた 00:36:532 (343,344) - . 流れはずっと良いです。
posted

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

追加してくださいドンに 00:36:423 (342) - そしてまた 00:36:532 (343,344) - . 流れはずっと良いです。 :arrow:I keep it because the piano sounds are weak. Also, in order to prevent the 1/8 pattern becoming too long.
posted
Some words about the 1/8 since many people discuss in general about it and are actually not sure what to think about them or often argue with the fun factor which has no place here. There was already some discussion for this in thread as well, but only about the possibility to have 1/8, but none which gives actually new ideas for other solutions without 1/8.

As previously said, the intention of the mapper, trying to catch the grace notes, is pretty clear. However, going more in depth, the Virtuoso difficulty can be doubted in this matter since the snapping of these notes can't be clearly indentified and make the 1/8 not very accurate. Due to this, before considering any fun factors or the mapper's intention following the unique sound, we should look at what other solutions we can bring up and compare it to current ones because, before this goes anywhere near qualification, we will have to talk about this and find a real agreement / conclusion (Nardo wants to say something about it as it seems).

00:32:060 - Three examples of patterns which are more accurate to the song than current 1/8.
(following the drums in the background, HL'd note = finisher)
(following the drums, alternating patterns with pitch of piano)
(following piano with finishers, grace notes get emphasized by the longer tone of finishers)

00:34:368 - Some other examples for the longer 1/8 part.
(following the drums)
(following drums and make the 1/6 feel more consistent with additional improvised 1/6)
(following notes with finishers)

>> For the lazy guys: Download to all three examples<<<

Overall, for me it boils down to having better solutions than the currently inaccurate 1/8. The 1/6+1/2 follows more accurate the drum while the finisher solution actually compensates the loss of 1/8 and goes well with the piano(also it feels kind the same playing 1/8 or finishers, but that's just me lol). To be fair tho, the 1/8 are consistent in itself and do not seem to bother that much sound wise or when playing. Yet, this should be probably discussed with some more people and consider more solutions before we consider going with 1/8. Afterall, everyone talks only about 1/8 but no one suggests or tries something else.

So yeah, I encourage everyone to help activily in this matter and test stuff out to find either a middle-way, better solutions or even go for the 1/8.


On another note, I will give later a comment about your answer to my mod, _yu.
posted
Another opinion is here I guess.

From what Ono said, I think, following the drum shouldn't be an option in this case. The diff is following the piano so much, that'll just be more inconsistent.
also, even tho, the note density from ono's example are still higher than the Hell Oni, the SR is quite a problem here.

Aside from this, here is my opinion about it : all 1/8 such as 00:32:060 (286,287,288,289,290,291,292,293,294,295,296,297,298,299,300,301) - are clearly following the piano which are 1/12 or 1/16. I personally find it okay, since, I don't think playing 1/16 or 1/12 this way is "this fun". (it's even skipping the glissando here 00:32:902 - ).

According to how he mapped those weird 1/16~1/12 piano as 1/8. I'd say, it's already a "midway solution". A midway of a midway would be quite weird. I'd say, the current one is ok.

[]

Aside from this, on Virtuoso, how about this 01:01:628 (558,559,560,561,562) - . I think, it goes better with the piano acceleration.
posted
me nub explain

00:49:873 - at least add here notes bcus follow piano, the piano is 1/6 but use 1/4 instead if you dont like xxxxxxx 1/6

01:01:628 - like Kin said, 01:01:772 - 1/6 sounds. you can change the colors pattern to dd(kkkd) to give neat increasing emphasis with the paino, more easier tho

1/8 is oki, I already pointd out 00:36:387 (341,342) - these as single notes b4.

bye gl
posted
Actually I was supposed to post with concerns about 1/8 usages but not timing issues lol, anyway.... (No KDS)

[Virtuoso]

! 00:35:522 - From this timing onwards, those 1/8 douplets are virtual *they are overmapped. The background music does not have 1/8 anymore. The whole 1/8 usage structure can be justified from barline:

> 00:32:060 - 1 bar full of 1/8

> 00:34:368 - ^, and that's all for 1/8.

> 00:36:676 - / 00:37:253 - These can be Finishers now when you remove all unnecessary 1/8 douplets.

! These 1/8 are all wrongly placed. The WHOLE douplets are put 1/8 too early. For example, 00:32:205 (288,289) - should be actually starting at 00:32:169 - *oh wait Skylish if I do so then the spacing between the patterns at 00:32:060 - will not be enough. --> no worry

! 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - Strong piano chords are performed, you may use D/K respectively to represent it well. Not only stating the chords, but also polishing the overall patterns' outlooks (talking about consistent metronome Finishers)

! 00:31:880 - / 00:34:188 - actually there are 1/8 douplets here, you can alrady use ONE 1/8 douplets here to act as a little warning for the players for the upcoming hellish 1/8 spamming.

tl;dr, my suggestion is that:

- 00:32:060 (287) -

> You can see those 1/8 douplets are now all snapped correctly to the right timings in the photo.

- 00:34:368 (314) -

> It's completely the same logic with 00:32:060 (287) -

[]


Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
posted

Skylish wrote:

Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
Will be pp whenever double time is used :^)

(?
posted

Skylish wrote:

Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
I think a BN rule says "Being able to reasonably play a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap's quality", looking at your profile you should probably avoid the Virtuoso difficulty for now :roll:

The few people here qualified to do so already gave their opinions :P

MMzz wrote:

Virtuoso is fine the way it is except all of the 1/8 doubles the difficulty originally had should come back.

This map was fine before it got modded to hell. :(
Good luck yu <3
posted
at least he tried to pointd out some related to song, not just about being able to play the map...

mrichi you orz.........


edit:

ahh.... why PP PEPES peep
posted
maniera is for pp, why are we still modding this ? ૮( ᵒ̌▱๋ᵒ̌ )ა
posted
suggesting that delete 1/8 part makes yu68 wanna delete the mapset instead😣 im gay btw😣
posted

OnosakiHito wrote:

Some words about the 1/8 since many people discuss in general about it and are actually not sure what to think about them or often argue with the fun factor which has no place here. There was already some discussion for this in thread as well, but only about the possibility to have 1/8, but none which gives actually new ideas for other solutions without 1/8.

As previously said, the intention of the mapper, trying to catch the grace notes, is pretty clear. However, going more in depth, the Virtuoso difficulty can be doubted in this matter since the snapping of these notes can't be clearly indentified and make the 1/8 not very accurate. Due to this, before considering any fun factors or the mapper's intention following the unique sound, we should look at what other solutions we can bring up and compare it to current ones because, before this goes anywhere near qualification, we will have to talk about this and find a real agreement / conclusion (Nardo wants to say something about it as it seems).

00:32:060 - Three examples of patterns which are more accurate to the song than current 1/8.
(following the drums in the background, HL'd note = finisher)
(following the drums, alternating patterns with pitch of piano)
(following piano with finishers, grace notes get emphasized by the longer tone of finishers)
:arrow:The map is consistenty following the rhythm of piano, so suddenly following the rhythm of drum in this part is strange.
Also, finishers will emphasize one strong sound like cymbal, so I think it's not suitable for grace notes.


00:34:368 - Some other examples for the longer 1/8 part.
(following the drums)
(following drums and make the 1/6 feel more consistent with additional improvised 1/6)
(following notes with finishers)
:arrow:I keep it for same reasons.

>> For the lazy guys: Download to all three examples<<<

Overall, for me it boils down to having better solutions than the currently inaccurate 1/8. The 1/6+1/2 follows more accurate the drum while the finisher solution actually compensates the loss of 1/8 and goes well with the piano(also it feels kind the same playing 1/8 or finishers, but that's just me lol). To be fair tho, the 1/8 are consistent in itself and do not seem to bother that much sound wise or when playing. Yet, this should be probably discussed with some more people and consider more solutions before we consider going with 1/8. Afterall, everyone talks only about 1/8 but no one suggests or tries something else.

So yeah, I encourage everyone to help activily in this matter and test stuff out to find either a middle-way, better solutions or even go for the 1/8.


On another note, I will give later a comment about your answer to my mod, _yu.

Kin wrote:

Another opinion is here I guess.

From what Ono said, I think, following the drum shouldn't be an option in this case. The diff is following the piano so much, that'll just be more inconsistent.
also, even tho, the note density from ono's example are still higher than the Hell Oni, the SR is quite a problem here.

Aside from this, here is my opinion about it : all 1/8 such as 00:32:060 (286,287,288,289,290,291,292,293,294,295,296,297,298,299,300,301) - are clearly following the piano which are 1/12 or 1/16. I personally find it okay, since, I don't think playing 1/16 or 1/12 this way is "this fun". (it's even skipping the glissando here 00:32:902 - ).

According to how he mapped those weird 1/16~1/12 piano as 1/8. I'd say, it's already a "midway solution". A midway of a midway would be quite weird. I'd say, the current one is ok.

[]

Aside from this, on Virtuoso, how about this 01:01:628 (558,559,560,561,562) - . I think, it goes better with the piano acceleration. :arrow:good, changed

Surono wrote:

me nub explain

00:49:873 - at least add here notes bcus follow piano, the piano is 1/6 but use 1/4 instead if you dont like xxxxxxx 1/6 :arrow:I think it need to make 1/2 to emphasize 00:49:945 - here.

01:01:628 - like Kin said, 01:01:772 - 1/6 sounds. you can change the colors pattern to dd(kkkd) to give neat increasing emphasis with the paino, more easier tho :arrow:I applied Kin's suggestion, because I want to make a pattern in which d stepwise increases.

1/8 is oki, I already pointd out 00:36:387 (341,342) - these as single notes b4.

bye gl

Skylish wrote:

Actually I was supposed to post with concerns about 1/8 usages but not timing issues lol, anyway.... (No KDS)

[Virtuoso]

! 00:35:522 - From this timing onwards, those 1/8 douplets are virtual *they are overmapped. The background music does not have 1/8 anymore. The whole 1/8 usage structure can be justified from barline:

> 00:32:060 - 1 bar full of 1/8

> 00:34:368 - ^, and that's all for 1/8.

> 00:36:676 - / 00:37:253 - These can be Finishers now when you remove all unnecessary 1/8 douplets.
:arrow:The background music does have sounds like 1/8. Please listen the song again.

! These 1/8 are all wrongly placed. The WHOLE douplets are put 1/8 too early. For example, 00:32:205 (288,289) - should be actually starting at 00:32:169 - *oh wait Skylish if I do so then the spacing between the patterns at 00:32:060 - will not be enough. --> no worry
:arrow:About this, I mentioned in reply to Raiden's mod. -> https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6021511

! 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - Strong piano chords are performed, you may use D/K respectively to represent it well. Not only stating the chords, but also polishing the overall patterns' outlooks (talking about consistent metronome Finishers)
:arrow:The map follows consistent the piano. I would like to take a policy to follow the piano unless the sounds of piano is drowned out by the sounds of drum.

! 00:31:880 - / 00:34:188 - actually there are 1/8 douplets here, you can alrady use ONE 1/8 douplets here to act as a little warning for the players for the upcoming hellish 1/8 spamming.
:arrow:I might add it if it's not unrankable.

tl;dr, my suggestion is that:

- 00:32:060 (287) -

> You can see those 1/8 douplets are now all snapped correctly to the right timings in the photo.
:arrow:I keep it because of same reason as 00:32:205 (288,289) - .

- 00:34:368 (314) -

> It's completely the same logic with 00:32:060 (287) -
:arrow:Same.

[]


Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
:arrow:This is not overmapping. Current 1/8 doublets is the best pattern I concluded after much consideration. It never only for pp.
Thanks for many suggestions.
posted
.
posted
I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.


2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.
posted
Well, i think it's normal that the mapper wants to keep these 1/8 to "fit" the piano, in my case, probably they aren't very confortable to play, but tell me, how many rankeds maps has a spam of 1/8 doublets? we don't usually play these kind of maps, and as tasuke said previously, people seems to like the map (even if some people like it for the pp), mapping isn't just adding notes and that's it, sometimes you can be creative as long as it fits with the song.

In conclusion, at least for me, i would keep these 1/8.
posted
To Skylish mod :

Finishers with 1/8 are an absolute no go, as it has been tested already during Raiden's bubble pop and playing / looking awfully. And when he says "piano" OF COURSE he is talking about the chords XD.

In this map yu wants to bring the 1/8 concept to the players and using MANIERA has a support for this concept. He is more mapping a difficulty than the song, otherwise we would have 1/32th or 1/16th....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The map is fun to play for an experienced player and to watch, and the 1/8 are matching pretty well as a good middle ground between PLAYABLITY AND MUSICAL FITTING.

People are crying over it and looking to change it just because the SR is 7.8... And as we say SR shouldn't be taken into account when it comes to qualifying a map.

My 2 cents.
posted

Skylish wrote:

I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.
:arrow:Nope, I insisted that "I am taking a policy to match the atmosphere of piano rather than matching it completely with the sound of the piano". (Perhaps this is misunderstood because my English is not fluent.)

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.
:arrow:I can't agree in terms of game-play. In a dense snap like 1/8, I think that the player will feel rhythm at the start point rather than not the end point of the patterns. It may not be so in a map which 1/8 is mainly used. At least in this map, many players will feel the rhythm at start points of 1/8s.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.
:arrow:Taiko is a game. Rather than following music theory, map should be considered for players.


2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!
:arrow:In the same way, I keep it to match the atmosphere of piano, and in order to be comfortable the game-play.

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.
posted
Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat.

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap :)
posted
Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.
posted

qoot8123 wrote:

Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.
:arrow:I almost changed but I putted d at 00:59:897 - because I want to emphasize base sound at here. I also think it will make the natural flow to the next 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/6 stream.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat. :arrow:fixed the timing point

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap :)
Thanks!
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