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Osu! United States Cup | Canceled!

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Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Thanks for the very constructive criticism! I can't speak on the other issues, but as for the mappool:

-We decided initially to choose maps based exclusively on quality and suitability, and decided not to take length as a significant factor. We've seen that this has displeased a few people and made the tourney somewhat more difficult to run, so we'll be making length a much stricter criteria in the next mappool. Thanks for the input, the more people we have complaining, the finer we can tweak our fixes!

-The difficulty of maps was due to our own calculations of the average rank of players participating. While we recommended 5k and above, our spreadsheets showed us that the largest concentration of players were actually quite higher ranked than 5k. We based our choices around this concentration, hence the high difficulty of maps. Regardless, this is still a legitimate complaint, and I don't want to hide behind excuses: we will be sure to correct this in the next mappool.

I appreciate your detailed response <3
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Map Pool

I don't agree with a lot of the picks in this pool mainly because of their length or difficulty. Most of the maps are very slider and stream heavy, which is understandable. The big issue with Scorev2 is the strictness of sliders. Some of these maps play way too much into that for this early on in the tournament. Algebra (which was used in the semifinals in OWC) is a fine example of this. Due to the high quantity of fast and tricky sliders, this map is very difficult to accuracy let alone full combo. The first set of maps should not be difficult to fc. They shouldn't be easy, but something that provides a fair challenge. It might be better to consult higher ranked player or mapper to evaluate your map pool before making it official.
Thank you for nice feedback, will make sure to rise quality of next mappool to make it more fun and balanced for all players.
Cheers!
Swell
119 posts
Joined October 2013
Swell
Tfw TBG thinks I'm not setting up score v2 correctly

0120
Former osu! Champion: 2015
80 posts
Joined September 2012
0120
as far as im concerned its not the individual staff thats doing horrible but rather that there just isnt enough people to run it compared to the amount of games there are. at this competitiveness and the amount of games played, i would think there should at least be 8 or so people who are available at almost any time to reduce any issues and to have multiple matches at one time so that the schedule wouldnt be so tight. Also the amount of work the staff has to do (from experience) is pretty insane, and making the small amount of team to be under this much pressure in such short time is cruel, sorry to say. At least when i was a part of a small staff team for a tourney, i was exhausted afterwards. Doing this every weekend must be tough for them, so im not going to dis the staff member completely.

If you guys need it, once our team is out (whenever that may happen, i donno) I would not mind helping out with things such as map selection and refereeing on some occasions. Please try and do your best, and i hope this tourney ends well overall.
grimy
14 posts
Joined January 2014
grimy
i have to ask, when you say that you found a substantial amount of players to be well past the 5k mark, did you do this based on raw numbers, or on who'd be competing? While a team like texas or california has their entire roster full of very strong players, there are others where the quality drops very quickly after the first two or three players. While numerically, seeing a bulk of players in a certain range may make it seem like that's going to be an active skill range, the active playerbase skill (i.e. the level at which teams will be competing) may very well be worse than that simply because certain teams are much stronger than others and have more of (for instance) the 3digit players.
Ignite
52 posts
Joined August 2013
Ignite

0120 wrote:

as far as im concerned its not the individual staff thats doing horrible but rather that there just isnt enough people to run it compared to the amount of games there are.
Seconded, the staff is clearly trying their best and I commend that. If you guys need assistance I would be happy to help as well.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HulbeH wrote:

i have to ask, when you say that you found a substantial amount of players to be well past the 5k mark, did you do this based on raw numbers, or on who'd be competing? While a team like texas or california has their entire roster full of very strong players, there are others where the quality drops very quickly after the first two or three players. While numerically, seeing a bulk of players in a certain range may make it seem like that's going to be an active skill range, the active playerbase skill (i.e. the level at which teams will be competing) may very well be worse than that simply because certain teams are much stronger than others and have more of (for instance) the 3digit players.
We did the check based on raw numbers, yes. When we saw the spreadsheet during our initial check before we started composing the mappool, though, the majority of people who had signed up were within this high skill group, and there were very few outside of that range, so we didn't really think it through much further.

But yeah, you have a good point. We definitely can improve on the mappool in this regard. That said, my initial concern was that we'd pick maps that were too easy...at least I didn't get that wrong!
Minhtam
550 posts
Joined September 2014
Minhtam
Well, here's another thing in regards to feedback: If a team (or in this case, state) has less than 4 players, the team shouldn't even be allowed to play. Allowing a player from one state to have a 4x multiplier just because he's the only person that can represent that state will be seen as unfair to the Twitch viewers watching the tournament, which causes some terrible PR.

Also, you need to consider that since half the player base are high school teenagers, you probably don't want to hold a tournament in the middle of February when they have school to worry about.

As it is, my honest suggestion would be to cancel the tournament as it is, go back to the drawing board, figure out what you need to improve on in all sides. Then announce a new United States Cup in April, with the matches to be held in June/July/August. You want to hold multiple rounds of registration as well to ensure that each state has a team to represent (example, Person A lives in California but attended the University of Connecticut in college. Person A could register for Connecticut after the first round of registration after finding out that California is full)

(and for the record, given the quality of some of the teams that participated in the first round, your initial mappool was too hard. there was a reason I withdrew Connecticut from the tournament)
Xilver15
Former osu! Champion: 2015
510 posts
Joined August 2013
Xilver15
Honestly I would just scrap the whole idea of having a player's score multiplied by 4 if he's the only one playing and just disqualify him or put him in another state. I'd easily win the whole thing if I was allowed to play alone for Texas because as a captain it is much easier to worry about your own score than the scores of 3 other people playing with you. This method of scoring is really illogical and unbalanced and I wouldn't be surprised if one-man states would go very far up in the tournament because of how easy they have it for them.
GRR SNARL GROWL
288 posts
Joined July 2014
GRR SNARL GROWL

Xilver wrote:

Honestly I would just scrap the whole idea of having a player's score multiplied by 4 if he's the only one playing and just disqualify him or put him in another state. I'd easily win the whole thing if I was allowed to play alone for Texas because as a captain it is much easier to worry about your own score than the scores of 3 other people playing with you. This method of scoring is really illogical and unbalanced and I wouldn't be surprised if one-man states would go very far up in the tournament because of how easy they have it for them.
I agree, and setting up 1v1/2v2 matches wouldn't be a good idea because it's meant to be a full team based tournament, like owc.
reflection
Former osu! Champion: 2020
73 posts
Joined March 2014
reflection
mappool reveal at showcase question mark
??
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Mahogany wrote:

-The difficulty of maps was due to our own calculations of the average rank of players participating. While we recommended 5k and above, our spreadsheets showed us that the largest concentration of players were actually quite higher ranked than 5k. We based our choices around this concentration, hence the high difficulty of maps. Regardless, this is still a legitimate complaint, and I don't want to hide behind excuses: we will be sure to correct this in the next mappool.
This is still a major failing as far as the map pool goes. Regardless of what your spreadsheet says, if the recommended cutoff is 5k then the first round map pool better be targeting 5k. Each map pool specifically should target a certain rank that gradually increases.

Also, there seems to be great inconsistencies in the difficulty levels of the maps. Gimmick maps are fine but you should at least make sure they are consistent in difficulty with the non gimmick maps. Algebra and Rally go Round are both around the same star rating with one being a gimmick map and the other being a super straight forward consistency map. They should not be in the same pool. It's similar to consistency in mapping when people bitch about random cross screen jumps in an otherwise 4* map.

The map pool just seems all over the fucking place but since I'm not playing anyways I didn't bother to comment until now.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I rather call them "Technical" maps instead of "Gimmick" maps :(
Kradfiz
50 posts
Joined February 2014
Kradfiz
No mappool showcase this week? I see week 2 mappool already out, or did I miss the stream?
Te Amo
246 posts
Joined January 2013
Te Amo
So some countries did infact get a free ticker to round 2? I know you said something about challonge not being able to list so many teams but i still find that unfair, you could of manually made a bracket.
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Mahogany wrote:

I rather call them "Technical" maps instead of "Gimmick" maps :(
Same difference. Point remains that you should choose those maps from a star rating significantly lower than that of your basic easy to read consistency checks. Even the people who have really good reading will stuggle to play those maps at the same star level as the harder easy to read maps they can play.
_WinRAWR
169 posts
Joined September 2013
_WinRAWR
bad mappool. you took a huge step back in difficulty from the first map pool (which was too hard for the first round anyways). if anything, the maps should be at around the same difficulty as the previous maps. just my input on things
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Just checked challengone, thank you @KevEz for posting this, i gave notification about mappool should stay same for this round but end decision goes to organizer.

@_WinRAWR, on behalv of mappool pickers, i need to appologize, as we saw many comments about map being way too hard and imbalanced, for next round there was prepared another one. If this one will not go live for this round, we will take care to fix it and balance it more for teams left in quarterfinals (where imo should be applyed new mappool). Thanks a lot for your input.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

chainpullz wrote:

Mahogany wrote:

I rather call them "Technical" maps instead of "Gimmick" maps :(
Same difference. Point remains that you should choose those maps from a star rating significantly lower than that of your basic easy to read consistency checks. Even the people who have really good reading will stuggle to play those maps at the same star level as the harder easy to read maps they can play.
Oh, I'm aware. I just didn't really respond to that because I thought it had been covered prior. It is a valid point, of course.
samotoda
39 posts
Joined October 2013
samotoda
The first no-mod map is not available.. rip
Tenshi
367 posts
Joined March 2011
Tenshi

samotoda wrote:

The first no-mod map is not available.. rip
I used this.

If I somehow got the wrong one, someone please let me know since there's like three with the same background.
samotoda
39 posts
Joined October 2013
samotoda
Also, does the second map pool apply to the loser bracket when they play later?
WriggleNightbug
256 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
WriggleNightbug

samotoda wrote:

The first no-mod map is not available.. rip
The map has been swapped out.


samotoda wrote:

Also, does the second map pool apply to the loser bracket when they play later?
The Week 3 mappool (once it gets released) will be used
Kradfiz
50 posts
Joined February 2014
Kradfiz
Why are the DT picks so much harder than everything else in the mappool?

~5* on average, then easiest DT is 5.56*

Thanks for pp btw :3

-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
~5* on average, then easiest DT is 5.56*

Thanks for pp btw :3
Star rating doesn't provide patterns which should be pretty easy for this maps, additionaly BPM after DT isn't brutal for most of players.
I am glad that you got sweet pepe, keep going my friend! Wish you even more sweet FC soon enough!
0120
Former osu! Champion: 2015
80 posts
Joined September 2012
0120
I will be completely honest and kinda rude, but I don't care at this point.
The map pool is, in my opinion, just ridiculous. The tournament was recommended for players above rank 5k which is perfectly fine. But selecting maps that are harder than most OWC maps (1st week maps were i would say quarter finals/semi finals in OWC, except the DT mappool which was a lot more easier than any other mods) and now the 2nd week maps seems to be easier than the first week.
First of all the maps shouldnt have been that ridiculously hard in the first round where all the players are playing. Some of the players that have signed up are lower than rank 5k, while those maps were hard to FC even by some of the rather skilled player (I had quite a struggle on some of these maps, and I think im a decent player). While a tournament is a competition, it is also entertainment. As a team member, I hated seeing my fellow teammate fail/struggle and feel bad because of their performance. I want them to have fun, I want them to know how exciting competing is against other amazing players in this community, but if they cant even pass the map, wheres all the fun and excitement?
I know these are all just my opinion, and many players are really competitive, but for the sake of them at least give some of these players a fighting chance against people.

To make it short: The maps in the first week should have been around 4.5-5 star on maps that are NOT 5 minutes long and NOT slider heavy. The maps this week should have been slightly harder (maybe around 5.2-5.5 with FEW slider heavy maps). Some of the maps chosen in the first week could have very well been in semifinals. The tournament difficulty should not be calculated by the highest skilled players (#1-15 or so in USA) but rather calculated by the average of the overall. It is ridiculous to see so many 4-0 matches, and so many fails on the first week. This not only demotivates some of the players new to tournaments, but also makes the tournament less exciting. I hope i'm getting my point through, because I like the concept of this tournament, but not the overall organizing.
Minhtam
550 posts
Joined September 2014
Minhtam
You know, I was kind of serious when I said this tournament really needs to be scrapped and redone from scratch. Any more mistakes and you're going to see players stage a walkout from this tournament.
Ignite
52 posts
Joined August 2013
Ignite

Minhtam wrote:

You know, I was kind of serious when I said this tournament really needs to be scrapped and redone from scratch. Any more mistakes and you're going to see players stage a walkout from this tournament.
Sadly, I'm going to have to agree here. Although most of you are trying your best to make things work out, it's just not happening. It would probably be in your best interest to put this tourny on hiatus until everything is organized. There are a handful of people in this thread who can easily do their part in making this tournament a lot better than it currently is. I'm not saying that you guys are doing a bad job, it's just that you could be doing a lot better.

For the sake of the remainder of this tournament, and for future credibility, please pause this tournament. This is something I would like to see be carried on throughout the upcoming years, but not like this. Select some higher ranked players, or people with more experience in organizing tournaments, and get them to help you out. This could be so much more than it is, and could easily be spread out to multiple countries.

Don't be discouraged, but some kind of intervention is needed. I'm not sure anyone is really content with the tournament is currently being run. If you want to see more exciting and enjoyable matches, please do something.

One positive thing I would like to mention is the kindness and acceptance of some of the current staff. The map selectors have been very pleasant and accepting of their mistakes. They show a clear intent of improving at their job. I feel it would be a disservice to not appropriately credit them for that. Not many people are open to criticism.
Xilver15
Former osu! Champion: 2015
510 posts
Joined August 2013
Xilver15
Please reconsider these map choices and start it again from scratch.

Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.
WriggleNightbug
256 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
WriggleNightbug

Xilver wrote:

Please reconsider these map choices and start it again from scratch.

Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.

I realize that this second week mappool was kind of rushed, and will take measures to redo it as soon as i can.


As for "remaking the whole tournament", I'm afraid that i cannot simply do that. Yes, i realize i've made mistakes, i've sometimes even thought to myself that i'm not cut-out to do this, and that i shouldn't have gone through with the idea.

HOWEVER!

I have put my blood-sweat-and-tears into this thing, and i am not prepared to just throw it all away, just to redo all of this, and risk it happening again. As much as you may hate me for saying this, I cannot and will not reset everything, I will try my damned hardest, however, to clean up this horrible mess that i have unfortunately created for you guys.
Minhtam
550 posts
Joined September 2014
Minhtam

TheBronyGames wrote:

Xilver wrote:

Please reconsider these map choices and start it again from scratch.

Actually, please reconsider the whole tournament and remake it again from scratch.

I realize that this second week mappool was kind of rushed, and will take measures to redo it as soon as i can.


As for "remaking the whole tournament", I'm afraid that i cannot simply do that. Yes, i realize i've made mistakes, i've sometimes even thought to myself that i'm not cut-out to do this, and that i shouldn't have gone through with the idea.

HOWEVER!

I have put my blood-sweat-and-tears into this thing, and i am not prepared to just throw it all away, just to redo all of this, and risk it happening again. As much as you may hate me for saying this, I cannot and will not reset everything, I will try my damned hardest, however, to clean up this horrible mess that i have unfortunately created for you guys.
You really need to think about it, because I am seriously considering opening registration for a retooled USA cup this or next week (to begin in June), which addresses all of the concerns that the players currently have. I don't want to have to do that.

Trust me, I've been there before. I've put my "blood, sweat, and tears", on major projects that I've desperately wanted to be successful. Some of those projects, I have completely failed. Other projects have succeeded without my presence. Despite all of that, I've been able to fight my way back from scratch and I'm still kicking right now. Sometimes starting over really is the best thing for all parties, especially in a tournament whose name should be screaming of prestige.
0120
Former osu! Champion: 2015
80 posts
Joined September 2012
0120
>>TBG
I am pretty sure this is your first tourney?
If so, its very understandable that there were many mistakes made. This tourney, compared to many others, is a rather major and competitive one. Therefore there are going to be a lot more criticism going around. I dont want you to feel down because of these mistakes, but rather take it and improve it in the future run.

If there is a re-made tourney, I think the staff team of now should be a part of the staff team, mostly to learn and practice with the experienced. I dont think it would be too bad of at thing. Almost no one in this tournament are bad people, actually most of them are rather kind compared to the rest of the community. We are not trying to completely dis you and discourage you, but trying to help the best we can. A lot of us liked the whole state against state concept, and coming up with that itself is an accomplishment in my opinion.

Reconsidering is not a bad idea, but it is up to you in the end. If everyone leaves this tourney i get to win!!!
Anyway I know you are probably the most stressed out of all of us, but do your best.
WriggleNightbug
256 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
WriggleNightbug

0120 wrote:

>>TBG
I am pretty sure this is your first tourney?
If so, its very understandable that there were many mistakes made. This tourney, compared to many others, is a rather major and competitive one. Therefore there are going to be a lot more criticism going around. I dont want you to feel down because of these mistakes, but rather take it and improve it in the future run.

If there is a re-made tourney, I think the staff team of now should be a part of the staff team, mostly to learn and practice with the experienced. I dont think it would be too bad of at thing. Almost no one in this tournament are bad people, actually most of them are rather kind compared to the rest of the community. We are not trying to completely dis you and discourage you, but trying to help the best we can. A lot of us liked the whole state against state concept, and coming up with that itself is an accomplishment in my opinion.

Reconsidering is not a bad idea, but it is up to you in the end. If everyone leaves this tourney i get to win!!!
Anyway I know you are probably the most stressed out of all of us, but do your best.

To be completely honest, this is actually my second tournament, however, the first one i made, was an absolute failure that i don't like talking about, I am still learning from my mistakes, and Trying my damned hardest to make sure this one doesn't fall to the same fate. I am taking this criticism from you guys as much as i possibly can, and using it to my advantage, and hopefully, by next year, these same mistakes wont be repeated.

If Worse comes to worst on this, and i am forced to close this tournament down, leaving someone else to reboot it, then i wish them the best of luck (though i am hoping to god that it doesn't end up coming to that).

I am very sorry if it seems i am super stressed (mainly because i am), but i only hope for the best in both this tournament, and you guys, the players.
Minhtam
550 posts
Joined September 2014
Minhtam
Honestly, your biggest mistake was coming up with the idea and opening registration for it in too short of a window. I've been here long enough to see so many tournaments I have participated in completely fail because not enough time was allotted to adequately prepare for it. A big tournament like the USA cup takes at least three months to prepare for it.
reflection
Former osu! Champion: 2020
73 posts
Joined March 2014
reflection
map in nomod is also in freemod fyi
WriggleNightbug
256 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
WriggleNightbug

Apraxia wrote:

map in nomod is also in freemod fyi
Fixed, sorry about that
Pituophis
859 posts
Joined January 2015
Pituophis
Will round 1 of losers bracket be doing round 1 mappool?
WriggleNightbug
256 posts
Joined September 2013
Topic Starter
WriggleNightbug

Pituophis wrote:

Will round 1 of losers bracket be doing round 1 mappool?

TheBronyGames wrote:

samotoda wrote:

Also, does the second map pool apply to the loser bracket when they play later?
The Week 3 mappool (once it gets released) will be used
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
The maps this week should have been slightly harder (maybe around 5.2-5.5 with FEW slider heavy maps). Some of the maps chosen in the first week could have very well been in semifinals.
Sorry but i was fairly alone to make it while i got informed about "hey we need new mappool" 1 damn hour before release. You have full right to judge and curse me here but take into consideration that i didn't had any time to properly test all maps, make rotations and ask high ranked friend to test them and give opinion. That's from my end. No excuses whatsoever. As following your advice we have planned to test it by high ranked players and take opinions to create something realy quality, enjoyable and challenging but there was completly no time.

TBG already have tons of negative feedback and things to work on, i already told him to inform us about new mappools way earlier. Simple reason - we had in mind that for round 2 will be used same mappool, nodoby expected this change from us.
Tenshi
367 posts
Joined March 2011
Tenshi
The second No Mod map links to the same one right below it.

Everyone's already mentioned their own gripes about various problems, but my main issue is that if any major changes happen, such as with the entire mappool or the schedule, at the very least send a PM to the captains so that each of them can inform their own teams and not be left in the dark later on.
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