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Hagumi Nishizawa - My Hero! Up to you!

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iiyo

Secretpipe wrote:

*popcorn*
gracefu

Fantasy wrote:

Secretpipe wrote:

*popcorn*
You latecomers, I've been following this drama since the very first bubble

*grabs new bag of popcorn*
lit120
i can read this forum all day

*eats popcorn*
IamKwaN
Can we keep the discussion afterwards constructive? All the posts which are not productive will be removed.
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease
but i wanted popcorn :(

anyway i updated the beatmap with some changes from the previous mods and my own opinion
Anxient
Alright i really dont like reading all this, so lets start from the top. I would like for everyone to answer these questions. Please use simple and clear english when responding. dont use any fancy words or anything coz not all of us is good at reading comprehension. id prefer if the answers are like a sentence long, coz alot of people like to give arguments in HUGE paragraphs and most of the time you dont even understand all of it. i mean, who has time to read that? so short answers please.

lets go.

Question 1: why is the "My Hero" diff unrankable?
Question 2: how is a map's rankibility determined? by the community or by the beatmap managers?
Question 3: if a map is unrankable by the community (people not liking it coz of x reasons), would the problems be weighted to determine if a DQ was worth it?
Question 4: is the "My Hero" diff considered unrankable because Xexxar isn't well known enough as a unique mapper?
Question 5: if "My Hero" was remapped in a similar fashion by a well known jump mapper (example: Fycho, Hollow Wings, Skystar, etc (any unique mapper)), would the community complain about it? Predicted Responses: (for Fycho maps: omg another fycho map! all aboard the pp train!, for HW: omg another HW map how to even read lmao, for Skystar maps: typical skystar map, how to acc/rhythm this)
Question 6: if "My Hero" diff is originally unable to be ranked due to "jumps being too hard", then how did this map manage to get past a BN and a QAT?
Question 7: is this kind of treatment fair to new mappers who are trying something new, or would they have to build their reputation as a unique mapper from the ground up? (example: before ranking with "My Hero" diff, Xexxar must make countless normal maps, gradually increasing the hardest diff jumps of said maps before being clear that he is a jump mapper, and then proceed to rank My Hero, or is he able to rank "My Hero" immediately?)
Question 8: If the community is responsible for deeming what is rankable, how many people are need to justify a map's rankability?

i hope all these questions get answered with clear answers. no ambiguous words. just english that a 2nd language learner can understand.
forum lock incoming i can smell it.
i hope we can all get equal rights as mappers.
im going to attract loctav arent i
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Anxient wrote:

Question 8: If the community is responsible for deeming what is rankable, how many people are need to justify a map's rankability?
This same question applies to if it isn't the community deciding.

Two bn's and a QAT have gave their approval of the map. Is this not enough? How am I expected to please every single differing opinion and still have my own taste and style be present in a map?
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Shad0w1and wrote:

I would like to give some thoughts about the hero diff, I just suggest you nerf some jumps to sliders in claim parts of this song, of course this might impact your SR, but it will present the music better.
00:01:269 (1,1,2) - nerf DS a bit would be fine
00:04:573 (5,1,2,3,4,5,6) - 00:06:448 (2,3,1,2) - nerf DS
00:08:770 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - these jumps I suggest your nerf them and have some more sliders
00:10:734 (2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - these you could keep imo
00:14:663 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2) - more sliders
00:16:805 (4,5,6,7,1,2,3) - more sliders
00:29:663 (1,2,3,4,1) - nerf DS a bit
00:42:520 (5,6) - 00:43:234 (1,2) - 00:44:663 (1,2) - sliders work better
00:45:555 (1,2) - nerf a bit
00:54:305 (5,6) - 00:56:091 (1,2) - 00:57:520 (1,2) - 00:58:055 (4,5) - slider
00:59:127 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - keep
01:02:698 (4,5,6) - nerf ds
the rest seems present music well
I did not like your hero diff only because its overdone in the clam part of the song, the jumps should present the peak of the song, not the pp. and the sliders are the soul of mapping, especially for a eroge op theme
edit: its your choice to make changes or not. I would be happy to see your hero diff get ranked, by making some minor changes. mapping for pp and ignore the music is a sad fact in this community.
Wow nice comment. Really A+

You modded my map telling me to nerf spacing and change out circles for sliders. But apparently I am ignoring the song and mapping for pp.

Nice. Please remind me how well you can hear spacing in music. Oh wait you can't.
Shiirn

Anxient wrote:

Question 1: why is the "My Hero" diff unrankable?
Question 2: how is a map's rankibility determined? by the community or by the beatmap managers?
Question 3: if a map is unrankable by the community (people not liking it coz of x reasons), would the problems be weighted to determine if a DQ was worth it?
Question 4: is the "My Hero" diff considered unrankable because Xexxar isn't well known enough as a unique mapper?
Question 5: if "My Hero" was remapped in a similar fashion by a well known jump mapper (example: Fycho, Hollow Wings, Skystar, etc (any unique mapper)), would the community complain about it? Predicted Responses: (for Fycho maps: omg another fycho map! all aboard the pp train!, for HW: omg another HW map how to even read lmao, for Skystar maps: typical skystar map, how to acc/rhythm this)
Question 6: if "My Hero" diff is originally unable to be ranked due to "jumps being too hard", then how did this map manage to get past a BN and a QAT?
Question 7: is this kind of treatment fair to new mappers who are trying something new, or would they have to build their reputation as a unique mapper from the ground up? (example: before ranking with "My Hero" diff, Xexxar must make countless normal maps, gradually increasing the hardest diff jumps of said maps before being clear that he is a jump mapper, and then proceed to rank My Hero, or is he able to rank "My Hero" immediately?
Question 8: If the community is responsible for deeming what is rankable, how many people are need to justify a map's rankability?
I am not a BN or QAT. I'm just some guy. These are just my opinions and feelings towards mapping in general.

1. It isn't technically unrankable, it's just very poor form and encourages bad quality from other mappers.
2. I think you're confusing "rankability" with "quality standards". This map follows all the ranking rules, but doesn't fit the music. It's unsightly.
3. DQs are done for discussion, not as a punishment. DQs do not mean "your map is unrankable", they mean "there are problems that should be addressed and cleared up before we qualify this".
4. It's not a unique style. There is no style to this. There is little structure or patterning to the map. If there was structure and patterning (yes, possibly using that oh-so-disgusting symmetry Xexxar seems to hate), the spacing would be less of an issue because it would more clearly follow a, well, pattern. As it is right now it is purely about reading the next few approach circles and that alone makes for a map that, while entirely playable, isn't good.
5. This isn't about Xexxar. This is about his map. Quit bringing up other mappers. The only reason I mentioned hollow wings in the mod response post is that even hollow wings constantly fucks up 1/2 stacked doubles and she's known as being fairly good at gameplay theory if nothing else. It was not meant to be a comparison to insult Xexxar.
6. Again, it's not unrankable. DQs are not the same as the old deranks. DQs are fired off first to discuss the map, which is what everyone is doing.
7. The entire point of the ranking system is that newbie mappers don't know what they are doing and modding is used to help share experience. Part of the reason this map is having so much trouble is that as a newer mapper, Xexxar is refusing to listen to most kinds of commentary. It sets a horrible example, regardless of whether he is doing things right or not.
8. The system right now uses two or three BN to set up a map, and then QATs look at the map over the course of the week. Therefore, a handful of people need to at least agree that this kind of map is fine to let through the ranking process, which is clearly not happening.


This map is not being held hostage in any way. When the mapper can respond to input and suggestions without becoming incredibly defensive or aggressive, things move much more smoothly. The reason Xexxar is facing such issues is because he outright refuses to listen to advice from many more experienced mappers and modders. Myself included. He rudely brushed me off and ignored me when I explained in detail why the jumps in My Hero (this is a fairly long paragraph about relative spacing theory that I won't spit out again without being asked) were considered overkill and how to fix them in such a way that he can keep the spirit of the jumpy map.

The mapper is as much a problem, if not more so, than the map.
IamKwaN
Creator being silenced, locked.

Let anyone of the Team know if you still want to move this forward, Xexxar.

EDIT: Alright, the mapper wants to continue with this set, unlocked. Remember to keep the discussion constructive and responses courteous.
ErunamoJAZZ
I just want to point: You will wanna keep your last diff as Optional too, and go a head with your mapset.
Dont drop all mapset only for one diff.
Anxient
https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/406st3/ranking_questions_regarding_my_hero_up_yo/
relevant reddit post i made to draw more attention to the questions
(because someone fed bancho the same kind of drugs that BSS-chan was eating)

EDIT 1: for the upcoming comments, please keep foul behaviour and language to the absolute minimum. im not the one to say but its pretty obvious aint it?
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

ErunamoJAZZ wrote:

I just want to point: You will wanna keep your last diff as Optional too, and go a head with your mapset.
Dont drop all mapset only for one diff.
Shiirn
The thing is, Time Freeze is objectively good. Any problems he had was just from it being a 240bpm streamfest, not because his spacing wasn't up to snuff.
Side
The way the current system works is a map is usually qualified to push it forward because it's "good enough". The ranking criteria is honestly very lenient so this is actually very easy to do (hence the hundreds of speedranked maps nowadays). The second step is (usually) a map gets disqualified either because QAT finds something unrankable or there are people in the community that have reason/concerns for the map. If the reasons make sense the map will usually be disqualified immediately so that the concerns can be addressed. This also usually leads to more people providing input on what can be improved.

Most people make the mistake that "if my map was qualified the first time it's clearly perfect (minus the thing it was DQ'd for) so I have no reason do change anything :^))))

Anxient those questions could be addressed for literally ANY map that was disqualified at some point. The same questions could be asked for your map or mine and honestly they're meaningless and provide nothing but a passive-aggressive means of gathering input on a system not the map itself. Taking to reddit further proves that point because you know the community is largely players that don't know much (if anything) about the ranking system at all and the people that do already browse qualified threads anyway.

Back to the map. I'm not at my computer nor have I actually seen the map yet but I'll definitely do so once I have time. What I CAN say is there have been many people raising the same concerns and providing arguments justifying their points. So far most counter-arguments have been similar to a "This is how I feel it should be it's my preference and I don't have reason to need to justify this". Needless to say (again) the replies have also been very passive agressive including in the youtube video.

You have to understand that while the ranking system isn't perfect it's still the system everyone uses. Whether or not it changes in the future is up to staff. The disqualifications that happen are usually because the map is good enough to be RANKABLE but it can still be improved and that's what the discussion is here for. Sure you don't have to address EVERY point but there's no reason to rush qualification just make it good make it different (please no one likes seeing the same map over a different song over and over again) and make it something you can at least be proud of ranked or otherwise.

Also remember that the mapping community is a COMMUNITY (omg redundant). This is a group that voluntarily provides content for osu. They also provide time and effort to try to help others. Every input is invaluable and whether or not you decide to change anything is still up to you but PLEASE keep in mind these people are not trying to hurt you or atack you by pointing out "suggestions" or "mistakes". Passive agressive or just straight up condescending replies (maybe not the right word pardon my englando) both offend the modders and hurt people's view on you. Who wants to help a person who doesn't care about the people trying to help them? You don't wanna hurt your reputation like bearizm. He's a good mapper but that recent event with his set surely made him look bad.


EDIT: Also trying to justify points through previously qualified maps is always a bad idea. If the map was qualified and a point was made and it was a mistake using it against QATs doesn't justify that same "mistake" applying to your map. Keep that in mind.



I might have overlooked a few points and it's not proofread so maybe somethings were not said correctly by me. It's hard to review 380 lines of text in a tiny ass phone screen x_x but yeh I'll check the map out later.
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease
Edit: :|
Bonsai
Something unrelated to everything here, Okoratu mentioned it in his first post but for a different reason:
01:15:913 - The bpm of this timing point is incorrect: It makes the measure start one 1/2 before the downbeat but end on the downbeat, which is messed up. It is intended to shift the offset by -16ms over the course of a whole measure, lowering it by 17,25bpm can't be right for that lol - What you want to do is make this timing point 169,7bpm.

@those questions: Please don't start the "If the mapper were famous nobody would dare to question it"-thing orz
Mazzerin

Natsu wrote:

Your My Hero! diff is the same as your Extra, just with higher spacing, Extra diff is fine (even I would agree to move this set forward with that),
this looks like a contradiction to me.. if the extra is a good diff and the top one is like the extra but with consistently larger spacing, where's the problem? hell i can't even call some of these "jumps" "jumps" like broccoly said, i bet skystar could pull off a 6.3* star diff off of this if he wanted to and it would be completely fine.
also 10/10 at shrin not even watching the explanation video yet commenting about how the explanations "aren't right" and even trying to "convince" the mapper into thinking that he's lying??
this really did get unranked for no reason, 2 bns qualified this, d-kun said it's fine, broccoly said it's fine, dozens of people said it's fine, natsu's mod honestly seems more like a personal attack than a mod to me, same "spacing" issues are mentioned like in the mods before the qualification which were denied.
Natsu

Mazzerin wrote:

Natsu wrote:

Your My Hero! diff is the same as your Extra, just with higher spacing, Extra diff is fine (even I would agree to move this set forward with that),
this looks like a contradiction to me.. if the extra is a good diff and the top one is like the extra but with consistently larger spacing, where's the problem? hell i can't even call some of these "jumps" "jumps" like broccoly said, i bet skystar could pull off a 6.3* star diff off of this if he wanted to and it would be completely fine.
also 10/10 at shrin not even watching the explanation video yet commenting about how the explanations "aren't right" and even trying to "convince" the mapper into thinking that he's lying??
this really did get unranked for no reason, 2 bns qualified this, d-kun said it's fine, broccoly said it's fine, dozens of people said it's fine, natsu's mod honestly seems more like a personal attack than a mod to me, same "spacing" issues are mentioned like in the mods before the qualification which were denied.

I don't see what are you reading lol, my mod wasn't an attack at any point, see maps rating check people opinion at discuss thing, check the map. I just did open the discussion again, because of the big amount of people complaining at the low quality of Hero diff


Contradiction?

Extra diff is fine > Hero diff seems a copy past + Scale by.... , which doesn't compliment the song imo.

DQ for no reason?

There is a Discuss on going, if you don't know that's how things work now, DQ first then Discuss
People that say is fine are not even the half of the people complaining at this map (not saying who is wrong and who is right)
Any mapper can do a 6 or 7 + star diff for this song, that doesn't mean it fit the song.
And yes you cant even call those jumps, cause the whole map doesn't follow a relative spacing, is all a jump, check the post that Axient did on reddit and see what most of people are saying.


2 bns qualified this, d-kun said it's fine

not everyone is the same person and has the same standards (that's why test time (qualify section) exist

Anyways at this point I think is better to call QATs or Loctav, because not agreement has been done so far.
HappyRocket88

Xexxar wrote:

At this point I'm more or less done with this set.

I am willing to do any minor changes deemed necessary to rank this map. I am not interested in deleting it for the sake of rank however.
"minor changes" be like: "blancket" "add a note" "move this node to x|y"

i guess you're not willingly to reduce the spacing of the jumps from my hero diff because you still believe you've done a great job mapping them, but this game is built by the community. You can't be narrow minded denying what most people have disagreed with QATs don't have the last word if more issues arose to discuss.
jawns
First off I want to point out I'm not an experienced mapper at all.

Second off, that shouldn't matter at all, my opinion is as important as anybody else's. Remember, the map is supposed to be played by "players" not just "mappers" or "BNs/QATs".

So, I've been following the discussion a bit, and after playing the map, I think it's quite enjoyable. In fact, I think it is great, and I feel like this should be ranked.

But apparently a lot of other people feel different about this. Apparently a lot of people feel like a major problem is, that they think the spacing is overkill, and that the map is overall too difficult. I completely disagree...

While I'm not experienced in mapping, that shouldn't mean I shouldn't be able to judge the intensity of the song. And this song is pretty intense, I don't see how anybody disagrees with that. It's got distorted guitars and aggressive drums/drum fills throughout the entire song, that honestly wouldn't be too out of place in a heavy metal song. So the difficulty seems appropriate to me.

While I do agree, that it is important to listen to mods, I also think it's important to not necessarily make any changes you disagree with, since even a bunch of experienced mappers can be biased, or simply wrong.

I have a lot of respect for Xexxar for sticking to his guns, and wish him the best of luck on this map, as well as future ones! :)
Slayed
in the insane diff

01:11:270 (4) - here should be a NC due to SV changes

01:18:575 (2) - here also (probably instead of NC 01:18:396 (1) - here)
mithew
anyone else here hyped for hvicks new top rank?
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Slayed wrote:

in the insane diff

01:11:270 (4) - here should be a NC due to SV changes This timing point can simply be removed because it's function is from the previous difficulty, not this.

01:18:575 (2) - here also (probably instead of NC 01:18:396 (1) - here) This is done for readability since it's changing from 1/1 to 1/2. I don't see the problem.

mithew wrote:

anyone else here hyped for hvicks new top rank?
please refrain from posting off topic comments.


Bonsai wrote:

Something unrelated to everything here, Okoratu mentioned it in his first post but for a different reason:
01:15:913 - The bpm of this timing point is incorrect: It makes the measure start one 1/2 before the downbeat but end on the downbeat, which is messed up. It is intended to shift the offset by -16ms over the course of a whole measure, lowering it by 17,25bpm can't be right for that lol - What you want to do is make this timing point 169,7bpm.

@those questions: Please don't start the "If the mapper were famous nobody would dare to question it"-thing orz
thank you! seems much more logical now. I also added a red tick on the final kiai end to reset Nightcore cymbal crash to be in tune with the music.
Strategas
Saying things like "this difficulty doesn't support the song" isn't very logical considering the current ranking system. If that was the case, then delete all the easy/ normal diffs on more intense mapsets lol... isn't the point of the spread to have more difficulties so more players could choose the difficulty that seems more appropriate to them?

The my hero difficulty itself seems fine, but my only concern is that some beats are not emphasized that well ( too lazy to check them now ).

I also checked on the more recently ranked maps and those have the same problems that some people pointed out. The current ranking criteria is really old and needs renewing, but that's how it is atm so have to deal with it. However I still agree that map can be improved, but dqing the map to discuss is really painful and stupid imo. A lot of new mappers can't take it / don't understand it even if it was aimed at helping them improve their maps and end up abandoning their map instead of trying to put it back to qualified.

Just my thoughts, bye.
Ciyus Miapah
- find a Composer who can remix this song, Remix it to Dubstep or hardcore, or breakcore genre song, then rank it immediately, so nobody complains about song again lol.

probably [My Hero!] diff is OKAY, dont insult xexxar for low quality terms of mapping please. The standard of mappings is like this at all

but yeah the song choice is the key of this thing at all

Strategas wrote:

Saying things like "this difficulty doesn't support the song" isn't very logical considering the current ranking system. If that was the case, then delete all the easy/ normal diffs on more intense mapsets lol... isn't the point of the spread to have more difficulties so more players could choose the difficulty that seems more appropriate to them?
i hope this thing can be allowed for higher diffs, in opposite way
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Fort wrote:

Strategas wrote:

Saying things like "this difficulty doesn't support the song" isn't very logical considering the current ranking system. If that was the case, then delete all the easy/ normal diffs on more intense mapsets lol... isn't the point of the spread to have more difficulties so more players could choose the difficulty that seems more appropriate to them?
i hope this thing can be allowed for higher diffs, in opposite way
Of course you would :P
Kunino Sagiri
You don't see people complaining about decent 6 star maps filled with jumps. Maybe they bash it by "lol pp jump maps again" "RSI map huhu" but that's as far as it goes.

The last diff's 01:06:305-01:16:832 is filled with patterns that forces you to miss that it puts most of Skystar's diffs and maps to shame if that's who you want to compare with. I could mention some maps with higher star/jump difficulties than this with 0 complaints but I think that's unnecessary.
deetz
Your concerns are irrelevant. We're talking about this map alone, and not any other map. Maps are considered on case-by-case. It's just a bit disappointing that people only get up in arms about this map.

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

The last diff's 01:06:305-01:16:832 is filled with patterns that forces you to miss
Or maybe you just can't aim them? A lot of people would find these easy, so that's completely down to the player. They definitely don't force you to miss.
Kinshara
Wow this thread blew up.

Well, I think we should stop commenting on the difficulty of the map. Xexxar doesn't seem to be yielding to any of the reasons anyway. The original DQ reason was unused hitsounds, and that has been fixed. If you wanna mod, go ahead.

Let's move this map forward instead of holding it back.
Kunino Sagiri

deetz wrote:

Maps are considered on case-by-case
Nah, it's pretty identical to Bearizm's Kneesocks ebin pattern at 01:17:338-01:22:359 but literally 2x longer and the funny thing here is that this has a lower star rating.
Okoratu
Maps are pretty much considered on a case by case basis.

Anything else is nonsense
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

deetz wrote:

Maps are considered on case-by-case
Nah, it's pretty identical to Bearizm's Kneesocks ebin pattern at 01:17:338-01:22:359 but literally 2x longer and the funny thing here is that this has a lower star rating.
Bpm is lower. Pattern fits the beat of the song.

What is your complaint? It's too hard? That's subjective as deetz said.
DahplA

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

deetz wrote:

Maps are considered on case-by-case
Nah, it's pretty identical to Bearizm's Kneesocks ebin pattern at 01:17:338-01:22:359 but literally 2x longer and the funny thing here is that this has a lower star rating.
Fuck are you on about? He literally just said maps are looked at individually...
Kunino Sagiri
"I am free to put totally-not-Kneesocks patterns for as long as I like for as long as the song permits it and I happen to made the patterns fit the beat of the song"

So, if this song hypothetically got extended by 20 seconds filled with 01:06:305-01:16:832 music and those same kind of patterns you hypothetically made now last from 01:06:305-01:36:832, it's still justifiable? The patterns would indeed fit the song and as deetz had said, difficulty really is subjective so no matter who'd try to complain they would be just brushed off.

I'm curious, please answer this question and I'll go away at once regardless.
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

"I am free to put totally-not-Kneesocks patterns for as long as I like for as long as the song permits it and I happen to made the patterns fit the beat of the song" many other maps have similar patterns so idk why you refer to this diff only, not only that but what is your points implication? are you simply stating that because i am not skystar / bearizm im not capable of utilizing patterns such as these?

So, if this song hypothetically got extended by 20 seconds filled with 01:06:305-01:16:832 music and those same kind of patterns you hypothetically made now last from 01:06:305-01:36:832, it's still justifiable? The patterns would indeed fit the song and as deetz had said, difficulty really is subjective so no matter who'd try to complain they would be just brushed off.

I'm curious, please answer this question and I'll go away at once regardless.
if the section was doubled in length id simply start the section at a lower intensity with more sliders and slowly rebuild to the peak jump intensity. idk why you ask this tho since its not...
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease
I modified the map slightly for some jumps in the slower section that I felt were somewhat excessive. I also changed out 2 groups of 2 1/2 jumps for 1/2 sliders.

If there are still complaints regarding the spacing of this difficulty. I'd like for specific and constructive comments. At this point there is literally just so much confusion, disarray and differing opinions that I'd just like to start with a fresh mind as for the rest of this maps's ranking process.
Shiirn
Just popping in to say that the My Hero diff now has a much better sense of intensity and while I still think the spacing is completely overkill, it is no longer quite as uniform across the map and does scale much more accurately with the intensity of the song. I'm not saying that I specifically approve of it, or that I even like it: I don't like it. But I am letting it be known that I see marked improvement. Should it be ranked? I'll leave that to BNs and, during the qualification process, the QAT and the community.


01:33:396 (2,2) - obligatory "blanket these"
Topic Starter
I Must Decrease

Shiirn wrote:

Just popping in to say that the My Hero diff now has a much better sense of intensity and while I still think the spacing is completely overkill, it is no longer quite as uniform across the map and does scale much more accurately with the intensity of the song. I'm not saying that I specifically approve of it, or that I even like it: I don't like it. But I am letting it be known that I see marked improvement. Should it be ranked? I'll leave that to BNs and, during the qualification process, the QAT and the community.


01:33:396 (2,2) - obligatory "blanket these"


fixed thanks qt
Anxient
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