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Hagumi Nishizawa - My Hero! Up to you!

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Ciyus Miapah
well i think some of your arguments a bit subjective but okay i will try to explain what's going on in 2015 (and 2016) haha

Xexxar wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Suggestions
Major suggestions
Unrankable issues

General
  1. Ya'll salty. DQs are for quality reasons and discussion. If you don't want your map to be DQ'd, make sure it's boring as shit or so objectively unassailable that people can't raise a finger against your logical arguements. this is not really shit at all, especially from jumpy maps as this map made well and i dont know why this thing can be serious problem in mapping world, there is such maps like this like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/255637, kinda common in 2015 mapping
  2. If people are raising a big stink about your map you are either doing something very, very right or very, very wrong. Try to make sure you're actually on the side of righteous logic. LOL, probably this thing is not a shit at all, logic says this map can be enjoyable and playable with different play style, kinda different spacing but it's okay for Extra higher diff, and this map still can be good to go and good to rank
  3. To save everyone's time and ability to suffer posts that are vaguely similar to massive walls, I will be going over these difficulties in reverse order!

My Hero!
  1. First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is perfectly functional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all, your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.
  2. CS4.2 is fine. Whatever. Do whatever.
  3. OD is seriously overkill, especially since the timing appears to be slightly off, and I am too lazy to make damn sure it's perfect.
  4. I think most of the problem people have is that your spacing is so high across the entire map that you lose focus on what parts of the song are actually powerful. If you're constantly jumping around nonstop at full power, you lose emphasis. You're not able to make certain notes strong or feel good to hit. While it certainly can be fun to have massive jumpspam maps, you can do this while still respecting the music. If you want to make a massive jump map, try mapping something a bit more intense? The mapping you've done here isn't objectively bad, you follow most musical cues accurately (outside of the terrible kiai), if over-zealously, it's just not a good fit for this song. I utilize other key aspects in this map to allow for players to experience feel rather than spacing. This is because, as this difficulty is intended to more proficient players, the spacing involved is nothing that warrants any increase in strain on the player through slow parts. This is the purpose of those anti jumps, break flow, this allows the players to feel more weight on the end of the sentences she sings (thats why every anti jump is in the location where the note that you stop on is the last syllable in the string of words and the note after is weak (aka no claps). This section is jumpy in the first place because you can clearly listen to the beat and notice the primordial 1/2 that CONSTANTLY is a part of this section. People may ask "Why is this section more circles than kiai?" but that is because the begining rhythmically has more 1/2 than the kiai. I utilize sliders and more powerful jumps in the kiai to highlight it's feel. and yeah well it's really fine than others map have some slightly GOD jumping power, while this map has really constant speed at jumping pattern, it's really okay when you doing this mapping style, this high spacing will adapted your device for doing some far jumps, and the emphasize on this song is really good compare with distance difference and patterning.
  5. Seriously, this kiai is fucked. It gets worse every time the stars burst out. The spacing is pretty much random and has no ties to musical cues whatsoever (the larger jumps aren't tied to hihats or snares or thumps at all, and the shorter distances often appear when they are) and for lack of my better judgement I find myself wondering if you truly did do this "for the PPz". well that's is why people emphasizing this own song to emphasizing maps, compare with jumps and some high gap difference in extra diff can be done in this diff, this jumps just an intentional thing to make a higher gap from extra diff, not for pp. and yeah if this map is for pp, im not really sure this map can be a pp map because it contains some hard patterns like some freezing stacks and some spaced triplets on some pattern which can be hard to pp time
  6. You can call this all "subjective to player skill" but that's not a good argument. Just because someone can play it doesn't mean it's good. The whole concept of nearly random 1/2 jumps in sections is exactly what is wrong with modern mapping. It can be fun to play, yes, but it shouldn't be in a damn eroge OP map. Map drumstep or something. Sometimes jumps are made for the purpose of being visually consistent. I CANNOT perfectly coorelate every jump with the perfect intensity associated with it. If you wonder why I do certain jumps, you can ask me. Most of my spacing is done for a reason, and I take pride in it. Just because has a symbol doesnt mean that the song has the feel that warrants a large jump, and thats what you people don't seem to understand. sometimes that 1/2 pattern can be random because weird to play, and yeah distance spacing is really subjective (especially for Extra diff), and well any beatmaps can be mapped like this including drumstep or dubstep, but atleast that song has to be a lower diffs which it can be same example map like this
  7. 00:01:269 (1,1,2) - While these make sense from a musical standpoint, you're less than two seconds in and already asking for nearly half screen jump skips. this jump is easy because it is returning to a previously aimed location therefore the strain in aim is alot less because the person who this difficulty is intended for should easily still have that location in approximate muscle memory. Not only that but this jump satisfys the downbeat for the song start extremely well the jumps can be okay compare with next pattern which can be fine on gameplay
  8. 00:25:020 (2,3) - Let me give you a quick tip here. 1/2 doubles stacked on top of eachother will always vaguely play like ass. This is due to the concept of momentum and forcing the player to literally stop all of their movement. It plays badly. Always. Space these out a bit maybe, even if it's just a dozen pixels, to allow the illusion of movement if nothing else. With a small circle size you're basically locking player cursors here and it kills flow. I've already talked about this, this was 100% intended for the song's purpose. basically if this stack didnt putted like this, probably the gameplay will be much more easier, and yeah you dont like pp map right? the stack didnt unrankable at all and it's really highly pure rankable, even it's like pain
  9. 00:25:913 (7,1) - ^ This doesn't play as bad since it's red->white and there's only one of them and it ends into a new stanza. That's like 3 criteria. It's generally not worth the trouble. I've already talked about this, this was 100% intended for the song's purpose.
  10. 00:26:627 (4,5) - ^ Pretty much the only person I've seen do these 1/2 doubles right in recent history is hollow wings and you're not hollow wings and you're not experienced enough to be throwing so many gimmicks at the wall at least one of them will stick. lmao ok so if I was a "well known mapper" I could do this. stfu, that's not helping a mod that's just belittling me so Hollow wings can be right, probably big mistakes out of here, on much of ranked maps this stacks should be fine to go, better than spamming triplets on here right? literally stacks on red at first is really acceptable and recommended, and it can be stabilized the vocal pattern with downbeat pattern.
  11. 00:41:448 (1) - unnecessary NC. You had no problem letting the combo go to 8,9 literally two combos before this. applied
  12. 00:46:270 (1,1,1) - : | :)? well i think i can agree with this, looks the New combo thingy can be hard to read since it's really high spaced 1/2s, remove NC on 00:46:627 (1,1) - can be better pattern trail
  13. 00:48:591 (1) - more unnecessary NC. applied
  14. 00:53:234 (1,3) - you can blanket these.

    They were blanketed (air blanket as I call it)

  15. I'm... not even going to go over the of spacing in the kiai. This is not flow. The jumps are angled and spaced pretty much at random with no... yeah i mean I'd rather discuss this with you personally to see what you're trying to do here because I'm not sure if you genuinely think you're doing a good job here or you're just pretending to think you are so you can get a lazy map ranked. There are some jumps that I think work really well and some that could be better. I discuss this in my video but I didnt reall'y make a huge talk about the angles and designs of these jumps. I basically just stated that I tried to overal red tick more as that beat was less powerful, but I didnt do that for the first kiai of the jump section, I might change this to evolk more consistency. if this not flow how can some people can play this properly, even it with high jumps, notice this thing: the jumps on here is constant compare with other jump patterns in this map it can be easier to read, aim and hit. Adapting for this map is really easy compared with a map with sudden low spacing and sudden high spacing jumps
well yeah, probably map is for people who want to enjoy songs they like.
it just like when you like song like this but there has not really hard diffs, it feels like it really boring without hard diffs.
and yeah the drums and vocal is really strong enough to create jumps like this, it just lower BPM which it hard to expecting songs like this
hope this thing help for reference, mostly song selection can be weird for this, but yeah mapping is for emphasizing mappers feeling on them, probably it made basically on feeling right, xexxar?

im trying to be neutral in here, i guess everything can be clean and fine like other songs like MIIRO ranked maps.
so well there is 2 options in here

1. Keep this map for ranking, look at ranking criteria for this, and proof this map can be rankable to all people in here. i dont really see amandemens like "an Average BPM songs should be mapped with maximum star rating to x.xx" or "beatmap should be nice look, and have good symmetrical patterns on beatmaps". so yeah this can be logic in many people in here

2. Safest Options in your life, without any nightmare from others, and fastest way to rank your map, delete the map. but as i said in option 1, there should not be any ranking criteria like above. it's really easy rank this map but im not sure some people can take this easily, because yeah subjective matters like many maps on 2013. Simple and acceptable without many misunderstanding you have on here

and yeah i can say "enjoy the game", dont farm pp, for what pp?, if you cookiezi then you should be farm pp some maps, skill =/= pp
if you have a skill doing this map you should be have good comments for this. if you just farm pps, find other easier maps to be farmed, nobody cares your pp if you dont have good skill to make your pp is deserved for you

okay sorry if i said something can be bad, hope this help a bit.

and yeah
debate because rhythm game

nice
Topic Starter
Xexxar

Fort wrote:

if this not flow how can some people can play this properly, even it with high jumps, notice this thing: the jumps on here is constant compare with other jump patterns in this map it can be easier to read, aim and hit. Adapting for this map is really easy compared with a map with sudden low spacing and sudden high spacing jumps
One of the thing's that I wanted to avoid was this exact line. That is a big reason for how the slower parts are designed, and also why I really take the my time building the jumps into the final climax.
Secretpipe
*popcorn*
those
Hey man, getting maps ranked is a privilege, not a right.
Topic Starter
Xexxar

those wrote:

Hey man, getting maps ranked is a privilege, not a right.
ok?

Like I said, if a QAT tells me that my top difficulty is unacceptable in that it cannot be ranked without major change / remap I will just drop the set.
those
Hey man, you being unable/unwilling to listen to anyone without a title just means you know you're not ready :^)

...especially since being QAT just means they have the ability to physically remove your map from the last part of the ranking process, not that they know better than everyone, or something like that.
Topic Starter
Xexxar

those wrote:

Hey man, you being unable/unwilling to listen to anyone without a title just means you know you're not ready :^)

...especially since being QAT just means they have the ability to physically remove your map from the last part of the ranking process, not that they know better than everyone, or something like that.
I do not wish to see this mapset ranked without the top difficulty, it is my choice. I am not interested in making this mapset boring and generic, even if that's what people want.

I simply say that I want a QAT's final word because they're the ones who will ultimately decide whether or not my mapset will be DQ'd.
iiyo

Secretpipe wrote:

*popcorn*
gracefu

Fantasy wrote:

Secretpipe wrote:

*popcorn*
You latecomers, I've been following this drama since the very first bubble

*grabs new bag of popcorn*
lit120
i can read this forum all day

*eats popcorn*
IamKwaN
Can we keep the discussion afterwards constructive? All the posts which are not productive will be removed.
Topic Starter
Xexxar
but i wanted popcorn :(

anyway i updated the beatmap with some changes from the previous mods and my own opinion
Anxient
Alright i really dont like reading all this, so lets start from the top. I would like for everyone to answer these questions. Please use simple and clear english when responding. dont use any fancy words or anything coz not all of us is good at reading comprehension. id prefer if the answers are like a sentence long, coz alot of people like to give arguments in HUGE paragraphs and most of the time you dont even understand all of it. i mean, who has time to read that? so short answers please.

lets go.

Question 1: why is the "My Hero" diff unrankable?
Question 2: how is a map's rankibility determined? by the community or by the beatmap managers?
Question 3: if a map is unrankable by the community (people not liking it coz of x reasons), would the problems be weighted to determine if a DQ was worth it?
Question 4: is the "My Hero" diff considered unrankable because Xexxar isn't well known enough as a unique mapper?
Question 5: if "My Hero" was remapped in a similar fashion by a well known jump mapper (example: Fycho, Hollow Wings, Skystar, etc (any unique mapper)), would the community complain about it? Predicted Responses: (for Fycho maps: omg another fycho map! all aboard the pp train!, for HW: omg another HW map how to even read lmao, for Skystar maps: typical skystar map, how to acc/rhythm this)
Question 6: if "My Hero" diff is originally unable to be ranked due to "jumps being too hard", then how did this map manage to get past a BN and a QAT?
Question 7: is this kind of treatment fair to new mappers who are trying something new, or would they have to build their reputation as a unique mapper from the ground up? (example: before ranking with "My Hero" diff, Xexxar must make countless normal maps, gradually increasing the hardest diff jumps of said maps before being clear that he is a jump mapper, and then proceed to rank My Hero, or is he able to rank "My Hero" immediately?)
Question 8: If the community is responsible for deeming what is rankable, how many people are need to justify a map's rankability?

i hope all these questions get answered with clear answers. no ambiguous words. just english that a 2nd language learner can understand.
forum lock incoming i can smell it.
i hope we can all get equal rights as mappers.
im going to attract loctav arent i
Topic Starter
Xexxar

Anxient wrote:

Question 8: If the community is responsible for deeming what is rankable, how many people are need to justify a map's rankability?
This same question applies to if it isn't the community deciding.

Two bn's and a QAT have gave their approval of the map. Is this not enough? How am I expected to please every single differing opinion and still have my own taste and style be present in a map?
Topic Starter
Xexxar

Shad0w1and wrote:

I would like to give some thoughts about the hero diff, I just suggest you nerf some jumps to sliders in claim parts of this song, of course this might impact your SR, but it will present the music better.
00:01:269 (1,1,2) - nerf DS a bit would be fine
00:04:573 (5,1,2,3,4,5,6) - 00:06:448 (2,3,1,2) - nerf DS
00:08:770 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - these jumps I suggest your nerf them and have some more sliders
00:10:734 (2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - these you could keep imo
00:14:663 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2) - more sliders
00:16:805 (4,5,6,7,1,2,3) - more sliders
00:29:663 (1,2,3,4,1) - nerf DS a bit
00:42:520 (5,6) - 00:43:234 (1,2) - 00:44:663 (1,2) - sliders work better
00:45:555 (1,2) - nerf a bit
00:54:305 (5,6) - 00:56:091 (1,2) - 00:57:520 (1,2) - 00:58:055 (4,5) - slider
00:59:127 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - keep
01:02:698 (4,5,6) - nerf ds
the rest seems present music well
I did not like your hero diff only because its overdone in the clam part of the song, the jumps should present the peak of the song, not the pp. and the sliders are the soul of mapping, especially for a eroge op theme
edit: its your choice to make changes or not. I would be happy to see your hero diff get ranked, by making some minor changes. mapping for pp and ignore the music is a sad fact in this community.
Wow nice comment. Really A+

You modded my map telling me to nerf spacing and change out circles for sliders. But apparently I am ignoring the song and mapping for pp.

Nice. Please remind me how well you can hear spacing in music. Oh wait you can't.
Shiirn

Anxient wrote:

Question 1: why is the "My Hero" diff unrankable?
Question 2: how is a map's rankibility determined? by the community or by the beatmap managers?
Question 3: if a map is unrankable by the community (people not liking it coz of x reasons), would the problems be weighted to determine if a DQ was worth it?
Question 4: is the "My Hero" diff considered unrankable because Xexxar isn't well known enough as a unique mapper?
Question 5: if "My Hero" was remapped in a similar fashion by a well known jump mapper (example: Fycho, Hollow Wings, Skystar, etc (any unique mapper)), would the community complain about it? Predicted Responses: (for Fycho maps: omg another fycho map! all aboard the pp train!, for HW: omg another HW map how to even read lmao, for Skystar maps: typical skystar map, how to acc/rhythm this)
Question 6: if "My Hero" diff is originally unable to be ranked due to "jumps being too hard", then how did this map manage to get past a BN and a QAT?
Question 7: is this kind of treatment fair to new mappers who are trying something new, or would they have to build their reputation as a unique mapper from the ground up? (example: before ranking with "My Hero" diff, Xexxar must make countless normal maps, gradually increasing the hardest diff jumps of said maps before being clear that he is a jump mapper, and then proceed to rank My Hero, or is he able to rank "My Hero" immediately?
Question 8: If the community is responsible for deeming what is rankable, how many people are need to justify a map's rankability?
I am not a BN or QAT. I'm just some guy. These are just my opinions and feelings towards mapping in general.

1. It isn't technically unrankable, it's just very poor form and encourages bad quality from other mappers.
2. I think you're confusing "rankability" with "quality standards". This map follows all the ranking rules, but doesn't fit the music. It's unsightly.
3. DQs are done for discussion, not as a punishment. DQs do not mean "your map is unrankable", they mean "there are problems that should be addressed and cleared up before we qualify this".
4. It's not a unique style. There is no style to this. There is little structure or patterning to the map. If there was structure and patterning (yes, possibly using that oh-so-disgusting symmetry Xexxar seems to hate), the spacing would be less of an issue because it would more clearly follow a, well, pattern. As it is right now it is purely about reading the next few approach circles and that alone makes for a map that, while entirely playable, isn't good.
5. This isn't about Xexxar. This is about his map. Quit bringing up other mappers. The only reason I mentioned hollow wings in the mod response post is that even hollow wings constantly fucks up 1/2 stacked doubles and she's known as being fairly good at gameplay theory if nothing else. It was not meant to be a comparison to insult Xexxar.
6. Again, it's not unrankable. DQs are not the same as the old deranks. DQs are fired off first to discuss the map, which is what everyone is doing.
7. The entire point of the ranking system is that newbie mappers don't know what they are doing and modding is used to help share experience. Part of the reason this map is having so much trouble is that as a newer mapper, Xexxar is refusing to listen to most kinds of commentary. It sets a horrible example, regardless of whether he is doing things right or not.
8. The system right now uses two or three BN to set up a map, and then QATs look at the map over the course of the week. Therefore, a handful of people need to at least agree that this kind of map is fine to let through the ranking process, which is clearly not happening.


This map is not being held hostage in any way. When the mapper can respond to input and suggestions without becoming incredibly defensive or aggressive, things move much more smoothly. The reason Xexxar is facing such issues is because he outright refuses to listen to advice from many more experienced mappers and modders. Myself included. He rudely brushed me off and ignored me when I explained in detail why the jumps in My Hero (this is a fairly long paragraph about relative spacing theory that I won't spit out again without being asked) were considered overkill and how to fix them in such a way that he can keep the spirit of the jumpy map.

The mapper is as much a problem, if not more so, than the map.
IamKwaN
Creator being silenced, locked.

Let anyone of the Team know if you still want to move this forward, Xexxar.

EDIT: Alright, the mapper wants to continue with this set, unlocked. Remember to keep the discussion constructive and responses courteous.
ErunamoJAZZ
I just want to point: You will wanna keep your last diff as Optional too, and go a head with your mapset.
Dont drop all mapset only for one diff.
Anxient
https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/406st3/ranking_questions_regarding_my_hero_up_yo/
relevant reddit post i made to draw more attention to the questions
(because someone fed bancho the same kind of drugs that BSS-chan was eating)

EDIT 1: for the upcoming comments, please keep foul behaviour and language to the absolute minimum. im not the one to say but its pretty obvious aint it?
Topic Starter
Xexxar

ErunamoJAZZ wrote:

I just want to point: You will wanna keep your last diff as Optional too, and go a head with your mapset.
Dont drop all mapset only for one diff.
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