I agree fully.
A proposal of a wording for a Guideline would be nice, and some more opinions, then this can be bubbled.
A proposal of a wording for a Guideline would be nice, and some more opinions, then this can be bubbled.
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[Rule to Guidelines] Sample Hitsounding
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To be honest, that rule actually confused me, so I just ignore it lol. Some people just need to keep calm and just play the map XD
Definitely agree to this change o3o
Definitely agree to this change o3o
Topic Starter
Alright, guideline sounds like it would work, so I'll update the first post accordingly in a bit.
To avoid a repeat of last time I'm going to send out a PM to others involved in the previous thread so they know that this one exists.
So let's get feedback from them first before moving anything forward.
EDIT: Sent a PM to the 14 in the previous thread.
To avoid a repeat of last time I'm going to send out a PM to others involved in the previous thread so they know that this one exists.
So let's get feedback from them first before moving anything forward.
EDIT: Sent a PM to the 14 in the previous thread.
I personally agree the original purpose of the rule; use hitsounds as their original intention.
If this principle can still be assured as the form of a guideline, while allowing nice exceptions, then that might be better than a rule.
If this principle can still be assured as the form of a guideline, while allowing nice exceptions, then that might be better than a rule.
I agree with this
I have seen some cases where it's used, mostly on approval maps, on the end (often it's a 64beat (or something like that) slow slider)
I also find it fitting on maps like Dadadadadadadadadada, As the clap sounds shifts from 1/1 to 1/2 and so on, so you don't need to change BPM or slidertickrate, which is inpossible
Oh Charles, I completely forgot about this, I saw your PM and though: Huh, what's this?
I have seen some cases where it's used, mostly on approval maps, on the end (often it's a 64beat (or something like that) slow slider)
I also find it fitting on maps like Dadadadadadadadadada, As the clap sounds shifts from 1/1 to 1/2 and so on, so you don't need to change BPM or slidertickrate, which is inpossible
Oh Charles, I completely forgot about this, I saw your PM and though: Huh, what's this?
Hitsounds should be used as they were meant. I do see your point, though, and pretty much agree Nerova's map is executed properly (actual loops). Your example was fine too, as the hitsounds were done in a way it keeps an steady rhythm, I think it'd depend of the song to judge it as intrusive or not. (Mind to link fanzhen's map? I've been away from standard for ages 
). What isn't okay is people putting snares and other related hitsounds just because.
I rather change the wording, than moving it straight to guidelines.
). What isn't okay is people putting snares and other related hitsounds just because.I rather change the wording, than moving it straight to guidelines.
Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.
I don't know if this modification would allow hitsounding like in Charles' example though.This problem is more related to limitations present in the editor. Rather support the Feature Request for this.Baraatje123 wrote:
I also find it fitting on maps like Dadadadadadadadadada, As the clap sounds shifts from 1/1 to 1/2 and so on, so you don't need to change BPM or slidertickrate, which is inpossible
I really dislike this being a rule, but I'd be totally fine with a guideline.
As with many things in mapping, there are cases in which this is useful and in which it is not.
If the mapper is experienced enough to use these kinds of hitsounds to actually enhance or improve the map/feel, then I dont see why this should be forbidden. Ofcourse, if these are used in a way that doesnt make any sense, then we could refer to the guideline and work on that issue.
As with many things in mapping, there are cases in which this is useful and in which it is not.
If the mapper is experienced enough to use these kinds of hitsounds to actually enhance or improve the map/feel, then I dont see why this should be forbidden. Ofcourse, if these are used in a way that doesnt make any sense, then we could refer to the guideline and work on that issue.
You can only attribute this to the limitations of the editor. p/4718862 (as well as the previous thread) explains everything that still isn't understood.
My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).
The rule only had to exist because common sense was so rare (and apparently still is). There is no point for this to be a guideline, because there will not be a case where an alternative is not better/more correct. Everything that has been "done right" can be explained by either a) it didn't break the rule in the first place, or b) someone was slacking during the modding process and/or does not understand the purpose of this rule.
My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).
The rule only had to exist because common sense was so rare (and apparently still is). There is no point for this to be a guideline, because there will not be a case where an alternative is not better/more correct. Everything that has been "done right" can be explained by either a) it didn't break the rule in the first place, or b) someone was slacking during the modding process and/or does not understand the purpose of this rule.
i remember in the old version of skystar's colorful asterisk remix, he hitsounded the entire piano part on a single 'M' slider. but since it was hitsounded via sliderslides, it was technically unrankable and he had to redo that part with normal patterns
guideline seems better maybe. as long as people don't abuse.
guideline seems better maybe. as long as people don't abuse.
Dropping some good examples for the usage of sliderslide hitsounds for reference (yeah I could think of more since my latest post)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/437671
himmel feat. YooSanHyakurei - Seraphim, by fanzhen0019
03:26:577 (1) - pretty neat effect
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/389348
TRakker - Rootus, by Amamiya Yuko
02:26:663 (3) -
02:28:685 (6) - etc
a higher slider tick rate would make the sv changes unfair (in this case lower str makes more sense here)
I'm now clearly in the position that it should be a Guideline, to allow for cases like these.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/437671
himmel feat. YooSanHyakurei - Seraphim, by fanzhen0019
03:26:577 (1) - pretty neat effect
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/389348
TRakker - Rootus, by Amamiya Yuko
02:26:663 (3) -
02:28:685 (6) - etc
a higher slider tick rate would make the sv changes unfair (in this case lower str makes more sense here)
I'm now clearly in the position that it should be a Guideline, to allow for cases like these.
most of the people i've asked can't understand what does that rule mean actually, includes some BNs and even QATs
this won't help when you're going to judge hitsounding on a map to make sure it's rankable or not.
rules should be able to understand by mappers to follow, not to make people confused, which means a hard-to-understand rule is not good and should be changed or even deleted.
actually this change on editor will make the whole mapping process much more complicate than before, it makes you spend more time on thinking about their uses, not everyone has strong logic like that to deal with that complicate work.
maybe you think that's ok because this kind of situation is really rare, but there's another important reason, it needs more calculation on gameplay, like timing, press, duration on hit objects, obviously you'll have high chances on getting glitches/bugs. considering about the input lag and the game's response time, the difference on gameplay is much bigger than you thought (especially when you're a player with bad accuracy), it won't better than just change sliderslide samples.
just some personal opinions though.
this won't help when you're going to judge hitsounding on a map to make sure it's rankable or not.
rules should be able to understand by mappers to follow, not to make people confused, which means a hard-to-understand rule is not good and should be changed or even deleted.
but the truth is, you can't attribute all of those things to the editor and add a feature on storyboarding to fix the problem, since the map and the storyboard are two different kinds of things and they are not related to each other.those wrote:
You can only attribute this to the limitations of the editor. p/4718862 (as well as the previous thread) explains everything that still isn't understood.
My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).
actually this change on editor will make the whole mapping process much more complicate than before, it makes you spend more time on thinking about their uses, not everyone has strong logic like that to deal with that complicate work.
maybe you think that's ok because this kind of situation is really rare, but there's another important reason, it needs more calculation on gameplay, like timing, press, duration on hit objects, obviously you'll have high chances on getting glitches/bugs. considering about the input lag and the game's response time, the difference on gameplay is much bigger than you thought (especially when you're a player with bad accuracy), it won't better than just change sliderslide samples.
just some personal opinions though.
fwiw what peppy finds silly is the use of non-loopable hitsounds for sliderslides (ie replacing a sliderslide with for instance a hitnormal)
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine
Have you even seen the examples in my latest post? There are good uses of this, otherwise I agree and this guideline would still only allowed to be broken for a few rare examples.Shiro wrote:
fwiw what peppy finds silly is the use of non-loopable hitsounds for sliderslides (ie replacing a sliderslide with for instance a hitnormal)
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine
Skystar's isn't really a good example of proper hitsounding. I do get the intention was to keep consistency in hitsounding, but the slidersound just gets in the way of what he tried to do with the rhythm changes. It also doesn't provide anything to the hitsounding, as it blends considerably with the song.
fanzhen's falls into borderline, as Charles' example (just without the looping thing). It still blends a bit.
Either you're using the wrong rhythm for your hitsounding ideas or not using the appropriate hitsound.
fanzhen's falls into borderline, as Charles' example (just without the looping thing). It still blends a bit.
Either you're using the wrong rhythm for your hitsounding ideas or not using the appropriate hitsound.
Agreeing on this.
I don't know if it was already said but, it could be better if you write something to discourage mappers from using this "technique", like it was said for slidertick hitsounds. If only this rule moves to Guidelines.
I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996Cherry Blossom wrote:
I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.Cherry Blossom wrote:
I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Full support of getting this rule taken out.
Maakkeli wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996Cherry Blossom wrote:
I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?
The slidertick is hitsounded, not the sliderslide ? so at least it makes sense...
Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?UndeadCapulet wrote:
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.Cherry Blossom wrote:
I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.
I was mostly talking about parts like 03:04:583 (5) - on the advanced diff, where the loud drum beats get skipped over. But anyway, I was really just bringing up that a lot of songs mix 1/3 drums in to songs that are mostly 1/2, so you can't use sliderticks; I just picked the first song I thought of as an example.
This is what Lust wrote in the rule discussion thread:
Repeat won't work too when the sound is not in the middle of the slider.
People now use slider tick rate 1 mostly because slider ticks in high density is quite "annoying", if you want to cover everything by slider ticks, lots of them will be unnecessary.
And the last one, using storyboard hitsounds. It looks like a good idea, but the sample will still be played even when you didn't catch the object.
I agree that there are a lot of cases can be easily dealed with simple replacements, but exceptions shouldn't be ignored. They still can be used properly if the mapper know how to.
maybe the new guideline can be written with this line:
Whatever, I really hope this can be pushed forward for more different things from mappers' creativity.
Easy ways to fix it
Considering about the differences between circles and sliders, you can't change all of the sliders into circles, because circle is not a HOLD object, and not all of the cases can be dealed with clicks, like drums behind long vocals.- Change the sliders into circles
- Reduce the slider's length and use a repeat where the hitsound should be
- Set the slidertick rate accordingly
- Storyboard the hitsounds
Repeat won't work too when the sound is not in the middle of the slider.
People now use slider tick rate 1 mostly because slider ticks in high density is quite "annoying", if you want to cover everything by slider ticks, lots of them will be unnecessary.
And the last one, using storyboard hitsounds. It looks like a good idea, but the sample will still be played even when you didn't catch the object.
I agree that there are a lot of cases can be easily dealed with simple replacements, but exceptions shouldn't be ignored. They still can be used properly if the mapper know how to.
maybe the new guideline can be written with this line:
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should be better in continuous sounds which can be looped by itself.
But this is definitely not a good one, and I can't get a better explanation of this. (and with better grammar, of course)Whatever, I really hope this can be pushed forward for more different things from mappers' creativity.
the way that sliderticks works is that it bases off where you START the slider. so if it's a 1/3 map and you start the slider on a 1/3 tick then it will miss the white tick.Cherry Blossom wrote:
Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?UndeadCapulet wrote:
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.
im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'
don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.
Charles could say something like,"follow the right polarity !".Kibbleru wrote:
im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'
don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.
In my opinion, i don't really like to start a slider on something else than a 1/1 or 1/2 tick on easiest diffs, but sometimes the song is different and you must use 1/3 or 1/6 ticks.
The discussion is going a bit off-topic now. We found out that slidertick hitsounds could be used for two things:
- instead of slidertick hitsounds if the slider tick rate just doesn't cover the beat, for example if snap changes to 1/3 or the other way around
- rare: to create the effect of a drumroll during a longer slider, as seen in fanzhen's Seraphim map for example
The question is now if everybody can agree that sliderslide hitsounds make sense in these cases, because if there are exceptions to the current rule the rule should definitely be moved to guidelines for now. It would still be enforced for most maps that use those sounds, if there would be a better way to do so.
- instead of slidertick hitsounds if the slider tick rate just doesn't cover the beat, for example if snap changes to 1/3 or the other way around
- rare: to create the effect of a drumroll during a longer slider, as seen in fanzhen's Seraphim map for example
The question is now if everybody can agree that sliderslide hitsounds make sense in these cases, because if there are exceptions to the current rule the rule should definitely be moved to guidelines for now. It would still be enforced for most maps that use those sounds, if there would be a better way to do so.
I'm fine with that.
By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.
Suggestion:
Suggestion:
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
maybe that's not really important, but i think people just forget about spinner ends (if that does count as a thing)Desperate-kun wrote:
By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.
Suggestion:Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
and i think that wording can be slightly fixed like this......?
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files should play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
What about screwing this long enumeration all together?
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a single hitobject. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files should play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
I wouldn't consider anything aside from sliderstart and circles as a real "hitobject" as I don't have to actively hit the other stuff.
I think "single hitobject" is more ambiguous and even though "circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end" is quite a long rat-tail, it excludes any kind of (mis)interpretation of what a hitobject is(or singular hitsound or whatever you might want to use to replace it).
I think "single hitobject" is more ambiguous and even though "circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end" is quite a long rat-tail, it excludes any kind of (mis)interpretation of what a hitobject is(or singular hitsound or whatever you might want to use to replace it).
Another example of sliderslide hitsounding: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83560
there are two specific parts: 00:30:464 - to 00:40:064 - , and 02:27:035 - to 02:36:635 - .
green lines are placed for switching the samples.
in this case we can see that sliderslide hitsounding is possible, and it can fit music as well.
and they won't play if you didn't click them, that make sense on gameplay too.
there are two specific parts: 00:30:464 - to 00:40:064 - , and 02:27:035 - to 02:36:635 - .
green lines are placed for switching the samples.
in this case we can see that sliderslide hitsounding is possible, and it can fit music as well.
and they won't play if you didn't click them, that make sense on gameplay too.
My personal objection to something like this is that you have no visual cue to show that this kind of hitsound is showing up. It's why a lot of people object to storyboard hitsounds as well. If this could be more leaning towards having a bias towards using slider tick sounds if possible (ala using the proper tick rate) and only use this technique in extenuating circumstances I would give support for that.
That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.
That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.
What if we add something like "you should use slidertick hitsounds as possible as you can before you start to use sliderslides blablabla"Garven wrote:
My personal objection to something like this is that you have no visual cue to show that this kind of hitsound is showing up. It's why a lot of people object to storyboard hitsounds as well. If this could be more leaning towards having a bias towards using slider tick sounds if possible (ala using the proper tick rate) and only use this technique in extenuating circumstances I would give support for that.
That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.
and also personally i think it's not necessary to make every diffs all hitsounded in the same way
lower diffs have less objects and can't afford that much hitsounds at the same time (like the map i posted above)
so i think it's better to make them just "hitsounded correctly without any problems"
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.