[Rule to Guidelines] Sample Hitsounding

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those
You can only attribute this to the limitations of the editor. p/4718862 (as well as the previous thread) explains everything that still isn't understood.

My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).

The rule only had to exist because common sense was so rare (and apparently still is). There is no point for this to be a guideline, because there will not be a case where an alternative is not better/more correct. Everything that has been "done right" can be explained by either a) it didn't break the rule in the first place, or b) someone was slacking during the modding process and/or does not understand the purpose of this rule.
Kibbleru
i remember in the old version of skystar's colorful asterisk remix, he hitsounded the entire piano part on a single 'M' slider. but since it was hitsounded via sliderslides, it was technically unrankable and he had to redo that part with normal patterns :(

guideline seems better maybe. as long as people don't abuse.
Myxo
Dropping some good examples for the usage of sliderslide hitsounds for reference (yeah I could think of more since my latest post)

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/437671
himmel feat. YooSanHyakurei - Seraphim, by fanzhen0019
03:26:577 (1) - pretty neat effect

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/389348
TRakker - Rootus, by Amamiya Yuko
02:26:663 (3) -
02:28:685 (6) - etc
a higher slider tick rate would make the sv changes unfair (in this case lower str makes more sense here)

I'm now clearly in the position that it should be a Guideline, to allow for cases like these.
Nerova Riuz GX
most of the people i've asked can't understand what does that rule mean actually, includes some BNs and even QATs
this won't help when you're going to judge hitsounding on a map to make sure it's rankable or not.
rules should be able to understand by mappers to follow, not to make people confused, which means a hard-to-understand rule is not good and should be changed or even deleted.

those wrote:

You can only attribute this to the limitations of the editor. p/4718862 (as well as the previous thread) explains everything that still isn't understood.

My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).
but the truth is, you can't attribute all of those things to the editor and add a feature on storyboarding to fix the problem, since the map and the storyboard are two different kinds of things and they are not related to each other.
actually this change on editor will make the whole mapping process much more complicate than before, it makes you spend more time on thinking about their uses, not everyone has strong logic like that to deal with that complicate work.
maybe you think that's ok because this kind of situation is really rare, but there's another important reason, it needs more calculation on gameplay, like timing, press, duration on hit objects, obviously you'll have high chances on getting glitches/bugs. considering about the input lag and the game's response time, the difference on gameplay is much bigger than you thought (especially when you're a player with bad accuracy), it won't better than just change sliderslide samples.

just some personal opinions though.
Shiro
fwiw what peppy finds silly is the use of non-loopable hitsounds for sliderslides (ie replacing a sliderslide with for instance a hitnormal)
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine
Myxo

Shiro wrote:

fwiw what peppy finds silly is the use of non-loopable hitsounds for sliderslides (ie replacing a sliderslide with for instance a hitnormal)
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine
Have you even seen the examples in my latest post? There are good uses of this, otherwise I agree and this guideline would still only allowed to be broken for a few rare examples.
DakeDekaane
Skystar's isn't really a good example of proper hitsounding. I do get the intention was to keep consistency in hitsounding, but the slidersound just gets in the way of what he tried to do with the rhythm changes. It also doesn't provide anything to the hitsounding, as it blends considerably with the song.

fanzhen's falls into borderline, as Charles' example (just without the looping thing). It still blends a bit.

Either you're using the wrong rhythm for your hitsounding ideas or not using the appropriate hitsound.
Mao
Agreeing on this.
Cherry Blossom
I don't know if it was already said but, it could be better if you write something to discourage mappers from using this "technique", like it was said for slidertick hitsounds. If only this rule moves to Guidelines.

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Makeli

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?
UndeadCapulet

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.

Full support of getting this rule taken out.
Cherry Blossom

Maakkeli wrote:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?
The slidertick is hitsounded, not the sliderslide ? so at least it makes sense...

UndeadCapulet wrote:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.
Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.
Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.
UndeadCapulet
I was mostly talking about parts like 03:04:583 (5) - on the advanced diff, where the loud drum beats get skipped over. But anyway, I was really just bringing up that a lot of songs mix 1/3 drums in to songs that are mostly 1/2, so you can't use sliderticks; I just picked the first song I thought of as an example.
Nerova Riuz GX
This is what Lust wrote in the rule discussion thread:
Easy ways to fix it
  1. Change the sliders into circles
  2. Reduce the slider's length and use a repeat where the hitsound should be
  3. Set the slidertick rate accordingly
  4. Storyboard the hitsounds
Considering about the differences between circles and sliders, you can't change all of the sliders into circles, because circle is not a HOLD object, and not all of the cases can be dealed with clicks, like drums behind long vocals.
Repeat won't work too when the sound is not in the middle of the slider.

People now use slider tick rate 1 mostly because slider ticks in high density is quite "annoying", if you want to cover everything by slider ticks, lots of them will be unnecessary.

And the last one, using storyboard hitsounds. It looks like a good idea, but the sample will still be played even when you didn't catch the object.

I agree that there are a lot of cases can be easily dealed with simple replacements, but exceptions shouldn't be ignored. They still can be used properly if the mapper know how to.

maybe the new guideline can be written with this line:
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should be better in continuous sounds which can be looped by itself.
But this is definitely not a good one, and I can't get a better explanation of this. (and with better grammar, of course)
Whatever, I really hope this can be pushed forward for more different things from mappers' creativity.
Kibbleru

Cherry Blossom wrote:

UndeadCapulet wrote:

Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.
Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.
the way that sliderticks works is that it bases off where you START the slider. so if it's a 1/3 map and you start the slider on a 1/3 tick then it will miss the white tick.

im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'

don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.
Cherry Blossom

Kibbleru wrote:

im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'

don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.
Charles could say something like,"follow the right polarity !".
In my opinion, i don't really like to start a slider on something else than a 1/1 or 1/2 tick on easiest diffs, but sometimes the song is different and you must use 1/3 or 1/6 ticks.
Myxo
The discussion is going a bit off-topic now. We found out that slidertick hitsounds could be used for two things:
- instead of slidertick hitsounds if the slider tick rate just doesn't cover the beat, for example if snap changes to 1/3 or the other way around
- rare: to create the effect of a drumroll during a longer slider, as seen in fanzhen's Seraphim map for example
The question is now if everybody can agree that sliderslide hitsounds make sense in these cases, because if there are exceptions to the current rule the rule should definitely be moved to guidelines for now. It would still be enforced for most maps that use those sounds, if there would be a better way to do so.
Mao
I'm fine with that.
Myxo
By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.

Suggestion:

Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
Nerova Riuz GX

Desperate-kun wrote:

By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.

Suggestion:

Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
maybe that's not really important, but i think people just forget about spinner ends (if that does count as a thing)

and i think that wording can be slightly fixed like this......?
Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files should play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.
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