[Rule to Guidelines] Sample Hitsounding

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Charles445
Version 2

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.
So a rule got added with minimal discussion, with this thread. t/271245

So why was this rule pushed forward in the first place? Well, quite simple, some members of the community want to stop people from playing samples during sliders.
The logic was that, if a sample was starting mid-slider, then it might as well be playing as a slider-end, and the slider is too long.
I can understand how that can be annoying, but that's very much a personal preference, not something needed to be enforced strictly by a rule.
Easy difficulties pass sliders over beats in the music all the time. Sliderticks are used as hitsounds all the time. Why are sliderslides any different?

Furthermore, the way this rule is worded actively conflicts with legitimate use.
For an example of this rule causing a problem, please refer to this post -> p/4684311

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Now, there was a thread about this before, and had much, much more discussion. t/131320
I would like to highlight a very important post from that thread. p/2285732

It was DENIED. By PEPPY.
The fact that it was brought up again is outrageous.

So basically, this rule was added in by a couple of people without contacting those still active in the community from the other thread (I was never contacted / informed that this rule was changing, and judging by the thread neither was peppy).

So this rule contradicts with how we handle sliderticks, is worded so poorly as to cause problems with legitimate hitsound use, and shouldn't even BE here because PEPPY said it was SILLY.

This is not acceptable as a rule.
It should be moved into guidelines instead to discourage its general use, not prevent it.

Technical details on proper and improper use are below.

Charles445 wrote:

See, it's been used properly before, that's the thing. It doesn't make sense as a rule because it clearly can work well. It's more fitting as a guideline / removed.
The whole point of guidelines is to encourage / discourage certain mapping behavior, but allow cases where it is handled properly / carefully.

In the case of sliderslides, if a mapper doesn't know what they're doing, it'll be really obvious when the audio starts popping like crazy.
If they do know what they're doing, you'll get stuff like fanzhen's map. They shouldn't be stopped just because others might not do it right.

See, changing sliderslides causes really obvious and nasty audio pops when done incorrectly.
This sort of thing has shown up in sets before, namely https://osu.ppy.sh/b/722224 , where a slider was changing sliderslides to match the piano.
The audio popping was so bad that it got removed and is not present in the ranked version.
It wasn't removed because of rules, but because it clearly wasn't any good. Modding took care of it, no problem.

For an example of how these can be done without audio popping, I've prepared an example osz.
http://puu.sh/lO7bV/5719bc29b3.osz
This goes through 5 different sounds on the same slider.
When played with NoMod, Half Time, or DoubleTime, there is no audio popping whatsoever due to how the files and inheriting sections are set up.
The only audio popping noticeable is in the editor and when NoMod is watched at 2x speed (neither of which are gameplay).


Really, the only time a mapper would want to do this is if hitsounding sliderticks just isn't cutting it, or if increasing slider tick rate is causing gameplay issues.
No reason to stop them from even attempting it, though. If it comes out bad they'll learn from their mistakes and fix it / try something else.
If it comes out good, why stop them?


tl;dr No need for rule, it can be done properly and it's obvious when it's done poorly.
If you want to discourage its use, put the rule into guidelines. That way modders will point it out more frequently, too.
Rule in Question:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.
So a rule got added with minimal discussion, with this thread. t/271245

So why was this rule pushed forward in the first place? Well, quite simple, some members of the community want to stop people from playing samples during sliders.
The logic was that, if a sample was starting mid-slider, then it might as well be playing as a slider-end, and the slider is too long.
I can understand how that can be annoying, but that's very much a personal preference, not something needed to be enforced strictly by a rule.
Easy difficulties pass sliders over beats in the music all the time. Sliderticks are used as hitsounds all the time. Why are sliderslides any different?

Furthermore, the way this rule is worded actively conflicts with legitimate use.
For an example of this rule causing a problem, please refer to this post -> p/4684311

---

Now, there was a thread about this before, and had much, much more discussion. t/131320
I would like to highlight a very important post from that thread. p/2285732

It was DENIED. By PEPPY.
The fact that it was brought up again is outrageous.

So basically, this rule was added in by a couple of people without contacting those still active in the community from the other thread (I was never contacted / informed that this rule was changing, and judging by the thread neither was peppy).


So this rule contradicts with how we handle sliderticks, is worded so poorly as to cause problems with legitimate hitsound use, and shouldn't even BE here because PEPPY said it was SILLY.

This rule should be removed or moved to guidelines.
This is not acceptable as a rule.
Makeli
Haven't people been ignoring this rule for a while now? For example Cosmic Cortex. Cosmic Cortex has a long slider in which there is a few snares put in there as slider tick hitsound. The long slider mapping the guitar in the solo and those snares going for the snares in the actual song. And mapping just the drums in a guitar solo would be just dumb. So, why not use for example a snare as a slider tick hitsound to get those snares in too?

Well I guess that's all from me.
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