Panda Eyes & Teminite - Immortal Flame (feat. Anna Yvette)

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lit120

Fyre wrote:

OfficialLaw wrote:

Why this isnt ranked? :C
jump practice maps shouldn't be ranked
Have u ever seen any kinds of "jump practice maps" that are ranked/approved from a long time ago? It's becuz the spread says so
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah

Alheak wrote:

Sorry I stumble upon this set this late into the qualification process but there are some things I definitely don't agree with, which I think need revision:

Everlasting Memory

  1. The map, especially the first two thirds, look particularly bad. You used to map some really nicer things back then, Highscore looked good, this on the other hand feels quite cheap to be honest:
    00:25:091 (2,3) - , 00:48:000 (1,2,3) - and on, overly curved short sliders like 00:52:773 (2,3) - , rushed squares like 01:23:454 (1,2,3,4) -
    The list could go on, but I know what you're capable of and that you're more than capable of applying yourself. is that really matter when i don't have any problem in structure and gameplay for that?
  2. The rhythm choices on most parts is really suspicious:
    01:23:454 (1,2,3,4) - why ending your slider on such a powerful note? It'd play much better clicked on. This applies to the whole section i told to everybody this again and again and again im following synth sound, why you forcing me to follow kick and snare for that, it's my custom preference to put some various pattern in that part
    01:30:818 (1) - why is it not two circles like the previous patterns? it's the same sound, it feels really awkward to suddenly play a slider instead
    Whole kiai as well, some note get a special 1/1 slider for no reason, some others get screen length 1/4 jumps subjective suggestion but looks good
    03:16:364 - why is this whole part so calm when it's basically still the chorus? why you don't understand, im sure im follow 1/2 patterns in there, why you forcing me to do 1/4? give me a single statements that mapping that with slow pattern is highly unrankable so QAT can DQ that so easily like throwing this map into the garbage can
  3. The flow as well is mostly bad, most of the objects just feel randomly placed across the map without real intent, like the whole section after 01:31:636 - if this flow is mostly bad then you can't do aim well for 7* maps, im doing this intentionally because of song itself and i put my interpretation to that song like that, i feel like it is okay if im doing that sharpy flow for that part as well, i assume you like you should make me remap that part for just your taste of your mapping i guess, no offense
    You often make the cursor stop at awkward moment, like 01:23:864 (4,5) - the previous part was a jump shitfest then you decide here to not only change the rhythm^, but stop the cursor. This would actually be okay if you made the player click on 01:24:000 - since you'd then be landing on a downbeat since the sliders was mapped by sliderends i think it's okay if i keep the cursor stopping in here, im really 100% sure this pattern is a good choices for that mapping parts
    01:32:318 (4,1) - this as well doesn't totally work, you want to stop the cursor but the next slider begins a bit more farther away, which makes the player continue to move the cursor. This ends up feeling more like a slow than a stop, which I don't think is adequate here well i think the anti jump pattern is your biggest problem in here but it doesn't make any senses for me since i put right pattern choices for that one, if you still complain map it your self and give me the good patterning choiches for that, i'll analyze that and i will think about that, please man the mapping is just not for jump jump and jump, i put much variety for that one, no offense
  4. NCs are a real mess as well, like 01:31:091 (1) - just why? You also don't need to NC every damn jump patterns, unless you really wanna make them stand out. NCs are a more than aesthetics, they are gameplay elements and reading clues since i fix 01:30:818 (1) - i didnt change the NC because of small sapcing
  5. Unlike Highscore, the hitsounding gimmick just doesn't quite work here, and sounds more forced than anything im doing testplays and retries for many times, please this map is my long term mapping, probably you will not understand my hitsounding in 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 tries, you need to learn something for that
  6. 02:06:545 - why isn't this part kiai? Moreover, this part has some serious spacing issues, most of the patterns don't work or at least not with the spacing they have, like 02:07:091 (1,2,3,4) - that kind of pattern if you don't like squares then you hate old ranked 2010 mapping with squares
    To be honest the whole map feels terribly unbalanced spacing wise, some very energetic sections like^ feel really underwhelming, whereas some calmer ones are a total jump shitfest like 00:56:727 - 00:56:727 - calmer? with tons of 1/4 synths it's called calmer?, i think your headset is broken, no insulting
  7. 03:51:273 - More personnal, but this section feels like it has some serious gameplay potential with those back-and-forth sounds, but nothing is made out of it >serious potential, yeah back and forth is just a flow choiches in common of mapping, but im doing different so why you so serious for this?

In short, the map feels unstructured, cheap, awkward, rushed and I honestly think that if you weren't Fort, this set would never have even got a bubble. please if you can map this song properly, mapped it yourself and ninja'd my favourites, please man im mapping competitively with ajny other mappers and i put several months of working this map and you said it's cheap, awkward, unstructed and etc. how did you said that such rude things to me so easily?, i guess you don't get my interpretation of my mapping based on gameplay itself, and yes you should take a look on other players plays too, and i see lot of testplayers and lot of modders don't have a problem with that while im asking something about that problem

It's a bit late here, plus I am posting from my laptop which makes modding not easy at all, so I am not really able to go deeply into the details. i hope you go to the deep deatails so i can explain everything to make sure you understand more
I hope it'll be enough to make people reconsider this qualification.

Bonsai wrote:

I randomly looked at the Standard bc I'm currently mapping a song of the same BPM and recently asked fellow BNs and/or QATs about 1/4-gaps in the lowest diff of a set, and some of them were already aversed to the idea of only having a 1/4-gap after a slidertail, but this Normal here even has fully clickable 1/4-doubles from 03:03:136 (4,1) on, and even though I consider myself a rather strong advocate for harder Normals, I don't think that's acceptable as lowest diff of a set either;would be cool to hear more opinions about that. it's not a normal diffs, it's standard diff which it has seriously balanced with the Hyper diff with tons of 1/4s, so the doubles should be okay with that one, well i have many of normal diffs with much 1/2 patterns in there, quite hard but yeah its okay

I found some other things in the Standard too:
  1. 01:41:454 (1,2,3,4,1) - As far as I've seen, there have never been clickable 1/2-chains longer than three notes anywhere, but this is five clickable 1/2s in a row - In a section that is mainly dominated by a lot of larger gaps and sliders, this seems highly unreasonable to me, simply deleting (4) would easily fix this imo. I find the usage of the 1/4-sliders in this section extremely random anyways, I don't see any system behind that at all and I think that bringing some structure into would only benefit the experience, but heyoo Normals don't get cared about much I guess looks okay
    (also, have you thought about already NCing those 1/4-sliders when they appear? i.e. swapping NCing on 01:33:545 (5,1) - etc, would imo make a nice effect but ofc that's just taste ^^)
  2. 01:20:727 (5) - 02:08:727 (5) - Missing NC; Also unnecessary NC at 01:41:454 (1) - .. ye maybe NCing should be rechecked throughout the whole map again, can't be bothered rn
  3. 03:48:000 (2,1) - not properly stacking lulz oh haha xD
  4. edit: Maybe you could also make 02:21:818 (1,2,3) be evenly visually spaced from each other ( = something like this)? Same goes for 03:51:273 (1,2,3) versus 03:52:364 (3,4) -, there might be more like those I guess

My apologies for being this late too, I just never bothered taking a closer look at this map but I'm procrasting on University-stuff rn so lol okay im trying to be a cool dude for some reason lol

Okorin wrote:

Hi Fort,

I'll pull this out of qualified for now as valid points were raised about both Everlasting Memory and Standard.

[Standard]
  1. As the lowest diff you may want to fulfill the general things an easy should be doing in its stead. As such I agree with Bonsai that the stub 1/4 sliders should either be reconsidered as a whole or at least in the part bonsai mentioned as they seem to lack a clear structure and actually make that part more intense than the really intense section just before it. this is really ambigous for me, that should i put more of 1/4s sliders or should i delete the 1/4s pattern in here, it's confusing for me a bit, i'll tell nhawak about this i guess
  2. If you want a more clear system, you missed the following places for 1/4 sliders: 01:37:909 - 01:40:091 - 01:44:454 - 01:46:636 - 01:48:818 - but as the lowest diff I'd just say you should go with circles in these places. (the timestamps above are used to outline that your system is kind of missing) looks i missed something there

[Everlasting Memory]
  1. 01:23:864 (4) - You should explain why you use these sliders so that everyone is on the same page here, Fort. I don't see the need to end them in a spot with this much impact either. already explained on alheak's mods + for few reference i swap that patterning for first attempt deal with that cursor break pattern, there should be good on first time, im not fix pattern choice but i fix pattern placement and some of note placement
  2. 01:30:818 (1) - I agree with Alheak that these could be circles, his explanation makes sense. yeah i agree with that too
  3. I agree with Alheak that the hitsounding seems to be trying too hard to be meme, so i'd ask you to reconsider that. i don't agree with that statement because when you realize that i hitsound that map the other hitsounds just an addition for my mapping being fullfilled by experiencing different look of the map itself, so yeah im already considered this for a long time, already structured the hitsounding, and yes it's not forcing, i'd keep my hitsounding not so much as my previous project was and it worked for me, tested by lot of people and lot of them didn't complain so much about that because i want to give different experience for players by putting that custom additional hitsound on that map (and mapset), kinda subjective but i bet this can be okay since hitsounds can be editable without changing .osu file notepad if you don't like some hitsounding parts


What are the tags "110bpm style" supposed to mean? glitch hop as manysi mentioned, im just doing that tags for additional seaching when people forget about Glitch hop songs, they can seach 110bpm style for this map lol
Good luck and answer the rest of the mods properly, not just the parts mentioned here~
@all guys: please keep calm, i'll answer anything i have if you guys put a good statements of your problems, i'll think and answer it. thanks

MEK wrote:

why didnt i get kudosu for my mod ages ago.
post exempt of kudos whatever thing while qualified

Fyre wrote:

jump practice maps shouldn't be ranked
this should be ranked, once again and it will be ranked, i hope so

S A V E R Y wrote:

Oh my gosh...
(Another drama)
lol

Scarlet Evans wrote:

If they comply with the requirements, are nicely mapped and have full diff spread, then why they shouldn't? I don't see the reason for maps like these not being ranked, especially when so many people love them, consider them good and there are no fundamental flaws, other stuff that definitely breaks the rhythm or is mapping to the empty vacuum.

I mean, no offence, but saying something like "I think it's jump practise, thus this shouldn't be ranked" is not a good way to convey someone's personal feeling, because it's a little like a tautological linguistic construct with zero information content. There's completely no argument related to why it shouldn't be ranked in it and for me, it just sounds like an attempt of being mean.

Moreover, the foremost mean to achieve improvement is playing the maps and any map that have jumps could be called by someone a jump practice. Do you mean that every single map ever that had any jumps in it, shouldn't be ranked? I bet not, as I wonder how many maps we would had left, if we were to unrank everything that can be used for jump practising. :P
yeah people saying such things because they have some structural problems in here, looks minor but it can be a big deal for some people if they still don't want to understand each other, but yeah i fix lot of things today and it should be a better patterns in this map, hope this can fix your misunderstanding about ranking maps :)

please read explanation because im not really Declining Red text, it contains my statements and opinion about my maps in a nutshell general of my mapping

updated, i'll tell BNs for this. if you need any more question please post here, i don't like the people when i qualified this again they're forcing to do qualified mod again and again while they don't see the maps on pending or WIP sections, it's like insulting BNs and previous Modders work and try to prevent specific mappers to do ranked maps. thanks for your attention
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah
no reply again? cool

now time to qualify this again, i'll wait for another discussion post here for 3 days
Bonsai
whoa there

Fort wrote:

Bonsai wrote:

I randomly looked at the Standard bc I'm currently mapping a song of the same BPM and recently asked fellow BNs and/or QATs about 1/4-gaps in the lowest diff of a set, and some of them were already aversed to the idea of only having a 1/4-gap after a slidertail, but this Normal here even has fully clickable 1/4-doubles from 03:03:136 (4,1) on, and even though I consider myself a rather strong advocate for harder Normals, I don't think that's acceptable as lowest diff of a set either;would be cool to hear more opinions about that. it's not a normal diffs, it's standard diff which it has seriously balanced with the Hyper diff with tons of 1/4s, so the doubles should be okay with that one, well i have many of normal diffs with much 1/2 patterns in there, quite hard but yeah its okay

Okorin wrote:

[Standard]
  1. As the lowest diff you may want to fulfill the general things an easy should be doing in its stead. As such I agree with Bonsai that the stub 1/4 sliders should either be reconsidered as a whole or at least in the part bonsai mentioned as they seem to lack a clear structure and actually make that part more intense than the really intense section just before it. this is really ambigous for me, that should i put more of 1/4s sliders or should i delete the 1/4s pattern in here, it's confusing for me a bit, i'll tell nhawak about this i guess
Oko and I did in fact mean that those 1/4-doubles are too much for the lowest difficulty of a mapset, it doesn't matter whether it's called a Normal or a Standard (there is no point in bringing that up anyways bc you are required by RC to have at least a Normal, so if you don't consider this Standard a Normal-diff then you'd have to add another diff anyways)

Guidelines wrote:

If your mapset does not have an Easy difficulty your Normal difficulty should follow the general guidelines for Easy difficulties.
As I said, I asked around previously - 1/4-gaps between two clickable objects do not follow the general guideline for Easy-diffs.
Alheak
Sorry for the harsh remarks Fort but I was really dissatisfied with this map, plus all the recent drama about BNs' circlejerk and poor modding made me quite sour.

First off, yes, bad aesthetics are a big problem. You are a famous mapper with a good mileage, you make quality sets, but all of this got lost and honestly feels quite insulting when you're able to qualify this kind of cheap looking map, though you're not really the one to blame but BNs to icon it this easily.
Try to apply yourself, please, inspire yourself from other quality mappers if you're not sure exactly how to fix the aesthetics.
Be consistent in your design, avoid bending short sliders too much, try to make objects fit together on the map, etc.

01:14:727 (1,2,3,4) - You say you're following the synth here , but it is played on 01:15:273 - as well, so there's no reason not to map on this beat instead of the end of a slider.

03:16:364 - there are 1/4s in the background which you could map, but I guess i didn't explain myself properly. I think you should put less sliders and more circles with more spacing, principally because this part felt so calm after kiai even though the song is still very powerful.

01:32:318 (4,1) - you didn't get what I was trying to say, the anti-jump is a very good idea, but you poorly executed it, you should overlap the slider's head instead of the end because the cursor has to move after clicking on (4), here's what I suggest:

With this, the player doesn't need to move his cursor so it really feels like a stop

00:56:727 - Yes, this part is "calmer", this "er" means it's relative. It doesn't mean it's not powerful, but surely less than 02:06:545 - , yet the square patterns and basically most of the spacing feels really weak compared to the spacing of 00:56:727 -

03:51:273 - I said "back and forth sounds", that doesn't mean the mapping has to be back and forth too, but you could have found a better pattern to represent those sounds, like slow sliders going in the opposite direction of the flow or things like that. Also the "serious" in this phrase just meant "great potential", not that you have to do it lol

For the hitsounding, I think what other people (and me) wanted to say is that it's not bad, but it surely doesn't work as well as in Highscore. You don't have to remove it, you can always try to make it better if you can, but it was just mostly feedback.

Again I'm sorry if I felt aggressive last time, but please don't take it too personally and try to look at what I am saying from an objective point of view.
Also I wasn't trying to be "rude" or anything, but simply wanted to express my opinion. Praise never helped anybody improve, and I hate hypocrisy.

You probably put some effort into this, but looking back at some of your maps, we feel like you could have done way better.
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah

Bonsai wrote:

whoa there

Oko and I did in fact mean that those 1/4-doubles are too much for the lowest difficulty of a mapset, it doesn't matter whether it's called a Normal or a Standard (there is no point in bringing that up anyways bc you are required by RC to have at least a Normal, so if you don't consider this Standard a Normal-diff then you'd have to add another diff anyways)

Guidelines wrote:

If your mapset does not have an Easy difficulty your Normal difficulty should follow the general guidelines for Easy difficulties.
As I said, I asked around previously - 1/4-gaps between two clickable objects do not follow the general guideline for Easy-diffs.
it is not really a strong as a ranking criteria said in Mapset Rule in here

Ranking Criteria wrote:

The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars.
which it has telling us to create only a diff below 2.0 stars for minimum criteria for ranked, the guidelines just only the guidelines which it has weaker than ranking criteria, so im already follow ranking criteria and the diff is not really as hard as you think, so yeah i can be safe without making easier diff than this (and this diff is already easy, based on basic rhythm patterning etc. and for other reference i mention this map as a prove the patterning is okay since it was the similiar diff star with similiar patterning http://osu.ppy.sh/b/663449 and it's survive to the ranking listing, so for the conclusion i won't make any easier diffs because this diff is alrready easy to play and not really hard to handle not like this map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/794743 with a small spacing circle patterning but it has gigantic sliderspeed at easy diff and it's ranked tho.

and about 1/4 patterning gaps i think it's really compatible with Hyper gaps with many 1/4s pattern, the doubles just for balancing the doubles gap on hyper diff and yes the 1/4 slider is clickable like a 1/2 circle, so i assume this 1/4 slider as 1/2 gaps so i think it's okay if im doing this for this map since it was really emphasizing the song itself, and yes that parts in only at that part, the rest is 1/2 patterns


Alheak wrote:

Sorry for the harsh remarks Fort but I was really dissatisfied with this map, plus all the recent drama about BNs' circlejerk and poor modding made me quite sour. yeah

First off, yes, bad aesthetics are a big problem. You are a famous mapper with a good mileage, you make quality sets, but all of this got lost and honestly feels quite insulting when you're able to qualify this kind of cheap looking map, though you're not really the one to blame but BNs to icon it this easily.
Try to apply yourself, please, inspire yourself from other quality mappers if you're not sure exactly how to fix the aesthetics.
Be consistent in your design, avoid bending short sliders too much, try to make objects fit together on the map, etc. i can agree with you about that quality mapper but about aestestics, that's highly subjectively suggestion which i should polish all this map while this map already good on gameplay and it has good flow for me, i tested it many times and i don't have problem with aestestics at all, so there is no bad aestestics on my map and i feel like it is good for playing by everyone who play this map, and once again how dare you say my map is cheap when you don't realize i put much effort to create this map in different way than normal (more than normal = special), and yes im gonna not improving the aestestics too much because im really respecting any beatmappers who have standard quality maps, so if you want to make a really good quality map please make your own set, and give me the prove you can map this with 7* with this set with a really good gameplay with amazing aestestics, well yeah once again im focusing on flow and patterning and some directional flow than make a good aestestics maps, so yeah the 2016 maps feels like many aestestics map but it doesnt have amazing gameplay experience in other way, so i create this map in a different way from aestestics, and once again you don't need to say this map aestestics was bad when you can't play this map properly, thanks for reading. np: and im sure im not insulting other mappers since im mapping competitively with the others, waiting for coming BNs and fix any modders suggestion with considering and thinking about it, yeah atleast i respecting the other mappers like that

01:14:727 (1,2,3,4) - You say you're following the synth here , but it is played on 01:15:273 - as well, so there's no reason not to map on this beat instead of the end of a slider. what do you mean about this? 01:14:727 (1,2,3,4) - is a strong synth which i mapped there, so there is no problem when i put that pattern like that, and yes this 01:15:136 (4) - has a slider with a whistle hitsound on the tail, whistle hitsound has low pitch than 01:14:727 (1,2,3) - and 01:15:136 (4) - slider head with high pitch preference, so why you forcing me to do this again and again while i can put better patterning variety for that part? and yes this song is repetitive so im trying to put any various pattern as many as i can without overmapping any rhythm, and any song. and yeah 01:14:182 (1,1,2,3,4) - this part is the first attempt you'll see the pattern like that, there is a probability you will notice the melody synth sound instead focusing on kick and snare sound, because this part 01:05:454 - contains tons of melody synth sound which it's automatically you ignore the kick and snare sound, so as a conclusion i didn't fix this because i think it's follow everything on rhythm without skipping any potential strong rhythm, im just want to put anti boringness pattern which makes the gameplay didnt too repetitive with same patterns

03:16:364 - there are 1/4s in the background which you could map, but I guess i didn't explain myself properly. I think you should put less sliders and more circles with more spacing, principally because this part felt so calm after kiai even though the song is still very powerful. oh man please, i can't hear the 1/4s with my old speaker, this is really forcing me to overmapping while im trying to focus on melody patterning with just only 1/2 beats, please no matter how fast this slider and pattern, the map still fast with High Approach rate and it doesnt feel so easy when you hit every circle there, and yes im doing this really structured with much planning into the beatmap because i really want to calm down players after tons of jumps in kiai time, and yes the kiai time on this map just in there, nothing else like highscore

01:32:318 (4,1) - you didn't get what I was trying to say, the anti-jump is a very good idea, but you poorly executed it, you should overlap the slider's head instead of the end because the cursor has to move after clicking on (4), here's what I suggest: that one makes it really worse, my preference is more better than that because the anti jump flow basically on the flow direction, so it can be good and fine while im keeping my own aestestics and anything else in my way, you just need many tries to adapt with that pattern and you'll be confortable with that, and yes this map is not for first play and you leave it, but this map is for many tries with much effort in gameplaying to have better scores

With this, the player doesn't need to move his cursor so it really feels like a stop well yeah i can prove that pattern makes player do cursor dancing so i won't change this one, nice fact

00:56:727 - Yes, this part is "calmer", this "er" means it's relative. It doesn't mean it's not powerful, but surely less than 02:06:545 - , yet the square patterns and basically most of the spacing feels really weak compared to the spacing of 00:56:727 - i told you to hear the melody sound, my friend, i told you this many time, im following that melody and it's really suitable with the pattern with much jumps and some tecnical hard patterning, instead of 02:06:545 - with less 1/4s melodical melody synth, the directional flow is really hard to because of the squares and ascension pattern

03:51:273 - I said "back and forth sounds", that doesn't mean the mapping has to be back and forth too, but you could have found a better pattern to represent those sounds, like slow sliders going in the opposite direction of the flow or things like that. Also the "serious" in this phrase just meant "great potential", not that you have to do it lol oh okay i see, but yeah i'll keep this thing for my preference in this map because im already liked it and also the others

For the hitsounding, I think what other people (and me) wanted to say is that it's not bad, but it surely doesn't work as well as in Highscore. You don't have to remove it, you can always try to make it better if you can, but it was just mostly feedback. well im sure im doing this hitsound is really better than the Highscore, and yes since the hitsounding is highly can editable without editing any of a single .osu code, im really sure if you want more better hitsounding you can download the alternate link for my alternate hitsounding in different way, so yes i'll keep this hitsounding to make sure i giving my mapping preference and my mapping interpretation to other so people can judge me in a different way about hitsounding, and once again, if i change the hitsounding it's like just changing the structure of the map so yeah it will be more harder than you expected, just learn and pay attention for something in my map (especially in gameplay) because im not really interested in "editor only" beatmapping, but im really appreciate much players who play this map and who can't mapping but they still can judge the map is good or no.

Again I'm sorry if I felt aggressive last time, but please don't take it too personally and try to look at what I am saying from an objective point of view.
Also I wasn't trying to be "rude" or anything, but simply wanted to express my opinion. Praise never helped anybody improve, and I hate hypocrisy. yeah i won't, i can take it seriously but i don't take too personally, i can thinking about you said, and i already answer all your complaints with my own answer before, hope that can answer your problems in this map

You probably put some effort into this, but looking back at some of your maps, we feel like you could have done way better. i hope this can be better and more better than my previous ranked map, you just didn't realize it, same like me haha
i feel like this discussion is like a conclusion about this map, so i think this discussion can be over without any serious problem about beatmapping in here, yeah i think this map should be qualified once again, and i hope the qualification will be the last qualification and be the Everlasting Ranked map.

thanks Bonsai, alheak & oko. Hope you can read this explanation and understanding it
Bonsai
Okay I got some time to look at some of the other diffs too this time~
Generally, the soft-hitnormal is basically inaudible for most intense sections to me, I don't get any feedback at all while playing, and even the drum-hitnomral isn't really audible either, so I'd try to either boost the volume of the current hitnormal or find some other hitsound to replace it

some basics for Hyper
  1. Switch NCing at: 00:31:091 (4,1) since the new instrumental line starts at 00:31:091 -; 01:27:273 (4,1) - 01:42:000 (1,3) -
  2. Remove NC at: 00:36:818 (1) since you only NCd every second measure in the rest of the intro; 01:25:636 (1) -(didn't do that at 01:14:727 (2) - either); 02:55:909 (3,4) bc they never appeared in the rest of this section either and there's nothing new here;
  3. Missing hitsounds at: 00:58:364 - 01:05:318 (6) - 01:08:182 - 01:20:045 (4) - 02:07:364 - 02:07:500 - 02:09:273 - (wrong one at 01:57:818 -) - 02:22:364 - 03:04:364 (3) - 03:15:273 (3) - 03:25:636 (2) - 03:28:364 (3) - 03:53:454 (5) -
  4. 01:58:636 (3) - This being a slider seems out of place, I don't hear anything on the tail or any difference to the next combo at all, why not just a circle?
  5. 02:14:727 (5) - Maybe remove the last reverse to differentiate that there is no melody note there? or hitsounds it if you keep it I guess
  6. 03:25:091 - 03:29:454 - swap that hitsound lol
  7. Why are you only NC every second measure from 03:33:818 - on? I mean the map is slightly denser but the music doesn't change its pace at all or anything like that
  8. 01:47:454 (1,2,3,4,5) - Are you sure about this? afaik there is nothing similar in the whole rest of the diff, please tone this one down by either lower spacing or inserting sliders, for the sake of consistency and also for the spread


Insane
  1. Why is 00:52:364 not even clickable when 00:50:182 (1) is even a 1/1-slider? imo a 1/1-slider would fit there too
  2. 00:54:545 (1) - I understand neither the big jump nor the SV-increase, there is a slight increasing whoosh-sound >starting< there but that only becomes noticable after a bit more time; imo raising spacing and SV here already takes away excitement from when the next section starts
    Related to that, it is imo pretty weird that 00:56:182 (1) has higher SV but then it slows down at 00:56:727 (1) - again, if you followed that previous point and not raised the SV at 00:54:545 (1) then raising it to x1,5 at 00:56:182 (1) would already have the same kick-effect but avoid this slow-down-effect
  3. 00:57:818 (5,6,7) - is the spacing so broken on purpose? nvm, seems like it is - About the whole section from 00:56:727 on: It is extremely confusing to me why you switch around with the spacing so much - The first two combos play relatively equal, then all of a sudden huge jumps at 01:01:500 (2,3,4,5,6) but then a huge slow-down directly afterwards at 01:02:182 (6,7,8,1) -; or, a really long really slow section at 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - but then suddenly a rather big jump onto 01:10:773 (5) out of nowhere - Along with the seemingly random switching between the different lines of rhythm, I don't get what you try to emphasize at all, the different rhythms contradict each other a lot but on top of that the spacing varies randomly too, all in all this seems extremely messy to me (not even mentioning that the inconstant spacing of the 1/4s makes the aesthetics look really messy too, varying between anything from x2,0 to x3,0 whilst having almost the same gameplay effect doesn't make sense to me at all - Try to have a certain distance for certain types of gaps, don't just place them remotely random, it's extremely weird to sometimes see equal spacing between followpoints, then uneven spacings, then a follow-point being half-hidden under the circle already or one additional follow-point showing a bit)
  4. 01:18:273 (7) - Maybe make this two circles since the melody has two notes here? differentiation please
  5. 01:21:000 - Missing hitsound? I'm not checking them bc after looking at the Hyper I feel like you should recheck all hitsounds in all diffs yourself again, but this one really sticks out
  6. I already find it quite weird that you ignore all minor downbeats from 01:13:909 (7) on, like 01:15:273 - 01:17:454 - etc because that creates basically 3/4-gaps of not doing anything for the player even though there is still much happening, and I guess your reasoning for that is that the melody doesn't have a new note there, and I beg to differ there - The melody doesn't change pitch, but it definitely has a new beat on those - But even following your hypothetical reasoning, why is for example 01:21:818 not clickable, but 01:21:682 - instead? please explain this to me because I don't see any logic behind those rhythm choices at all
    or suddenly 01:28:364 is being mapped, why?
  7. 01:22:091 (5,6,7,1) - This is a good example of what I said about aesthetics earlier - These notes have a difference of 0,25 in spacing, which is easily visually noticable and looks not quite good to me, but it doesn't change anything for the gameplay at all because the slider-leniency makes all of those really easy anyways, so I don't see any reason not to space them the same.
    Also, I dislike that pattern, like many others, extremely rhythmically because it doesn't differentiate at all between objects having melody-notes on the or not, here 01:22:773 doesn't have anything at all in the music but gets mapped exactly the same as everything else, or for example 01:24:545 (7,8) - completely ignores the melody bc it maps notes where no melody-notes are, and furthermore this is then mapped exactly the same as 01:26:727 (7,8) even though the melody has more notes there, and this missing differentiation occurs a lot and makes all of it seem so random, because there is literally no clue in the music or anywhere else why you mapped it like that
  8. Another consequence of that weird spacing you have going on: 01:30:545 (6,7,8,9,1) this is a slow-down in the music, it leads to the next section which is much calmer, and you mapped it slightly less spaced than the previous combo, but this change in spacing has lost all of its meaning since you randomly do that all the time, for example 01:26:727 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) has the exact same spacing even though it is muuch more intense
  9. 01:33:545 (7,8) - seems like you wanted to emphasize this with the higher spacing, but since it is just forming a straight line with (6) it doesn't emphasize neither (7) nor (8) at all
  10. 01:35:727 (7,8) - to bring more structure into this section, this should be stacked, just as 01:44:454 (7,8) is stacked, otherwise it just seems random again
  11. 01:44:182 (6,7) - You always spaced those with at least x2,0 , why such a low spacing here?

I have to go now, but as far as I've seen, all those points that I already mentioned for the Insane apply to most other sections and most other diffs too, it's just an overall feeling of confusion because it isn't clear at all what you are trying to emphasize, patterns play extremely different than others even though the same is happening in the music, and on top of it all it looks really messy, for which I see no reason because the gameplay isn't that great either, just confusing and feeling very forced most of the time since the emphasis doesn't feel natural or logical
I'm really looking forward to your response for all of this as I don't see much reasoning behind any of it, and I can gladly continue this for all other diffs if you find it helpful, but I feel like this is a very general problem of this mapset that isn't really moddable since it's the fundamentals that seem lacking here.
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah

Bonsai wrote:

Okay I got some time to look at some of the other diffs too this time~
Generally, the soft-hitnormal is basically inaudible for most intense sections to me, I don't get any feedback at all while playing, and even the drum-hitnomral isn't really audible either, so I'd try to either boost the volume of the current hitnormal or find some other hitsound to replace it i think it's audible for me, i can hear the hitsound in 100% volume, well the sound of hitdrum and hitsoft is same i think

some basics for Hyper
  1. Switch NCing at: 00:31:091 (4,1) since the new instrumental line starts at 00:31:091 -; 01:27:273 (4,1) - 01:42:000 (1,3) -
  2. Missing hitsounds at: 00:58:364 - 01:05:318 (6) - 01:08:182 - 01:20:045 (4) - 02:07:364 - 02:07:500 - 02:09:273 - (wrong one at 01:57:818 -) - 02:22:364 - 03:04:364 (3) - 03:15:273 (3) - 03:25:636 (2) - 03:28:364 (3) - 03:53:454 (5) - fixed
  3. 03:25:091 - 03:29:454 - swap that hitsound lol fixed
  4. Why are you only NC every second measure from 03:33:818 - on? I mean the map is slightly denser but the music doesn't change its pace at all or anything like that i want to put interesting custom combo there, so why not


Insane
  1. Why is 00:52:364 not even clickable when 00:50:182 (1) is even a 1/1-slider? imo a 1/1-slider would fit there too SV transition on next patterning, wow
  2. 00:54:545 (1) - I understand neither the big jump nor the SV-increase, there is a slight increasing whoosh-sound >starting< there but that only becomes noticable after a bit more time; imo raising spacing and SV here already takes away excitement from when the next section starts
    Related to that, it is imo pretty weird that 00:56:182 (1) has higher SV but then it slows down at 00:56:727 (1) - again, if you followed that previous point and not raised the SV at 00:54:545 (1) then raising it to x1,5 at 00:56:182 (1) would already have the same kick-effect but avoid this slow-down-effect there is no such slow down effect since i put right patterning to deal with that, and since i put stack on 00:56:591 (2,1) - it will be alright when i put SV like that
  3. 00:57:818 (5,6,7) - is the spacing so broken on purpose? nvm, seems like it is - About the whole section from 00:56:727 on: It is extremely confusing to me why you switch around with the spacing so much - The first two combos play relatively equal, then all of a sudden huge jumps at 01:01:500 (2,3,4,5,6) but then a huge slow-down directly afterwards at 01:02:182 (6,7,8,1) -; or, a really long really slow section at 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - but then suddenly a rather big jump onto 01:10:773 (5) out of nowhere - Along with the seemingly random switching between the different lines of rhythm, I don't get what you try to emphasize at all, the different rhythms contradict each other a lot but on top of that the spacing varies randomly too, all in all this seems extremely messy to me (not even mentioning that the inconstant spacing of the 1/4s makes the aesthetics look really messy too, varying between anything from x2,0 to x3,0 whilst having almost the same gameplay effect doesn't make sense to me at all - Try to have a certain distance for certain types of gaps, don't just place them remotely random, it's extremely weird to sometimes see equal spacing between followpoints, then uneven spacings, then a follow-point being half-hidden under the circle already or one additional follow-point showing a bit) so various spacing in insane diff is not okay for you? remember i put this name as insane diff the rule is the insane diff can be mapped with any distance snap, and you must put the distancing relatively, this part has relatively spaced and structured well so for me it's really okay since the all spacing in this part is clearly visible and can be doable in gameplay without any problems of flow about that one. for me the sudden spacing and etc is okay to aim since i put a 2x slider SV to make sure people can do better aim for the map, i give people lot of concentration on here so i put some custom spacing there, and yes about 01:05:454 - this is the half of the parts so i think it's okay if i reduce the spacing jumps there since it has different transition part on 01:09:818 - with a relatively high spacing there, thanks for this but i think i don't want to change this
  4. 01:18:273 (7) - Maybe make this two circles since the melody has two notes here? differentiation please please 01:18:136 (6,7,1) - is straight flow with hard direction to hit, i will not put that circle so easily with straight pattern, and yes the circle can ruin the transition of 01:18:273 (7,1) - so people will confused a little bit about melody and base line sound just like 01:20:182 (6,7) -
  5. 01:21:000 - Missing hitsound? I'm not checking them bc after looking at the Hyper I feel like you should recheck all hitsounds in all diffs yourself again, but this one really sticks out i think im doing this really intentional because of higher diffs on there, on hyper it looks okay since we put continuous patterning there, so there is no problem with the hitsounding
  6. I already find it quite weird that you ignore all minor downbeats from 01:13:909 (7) on, like 01:15:273 - 01:17:454 - etc because that creates basically 3/4-gaps of not doing anything for the player even though there is still much happening, and I guess your reasoning for that is that the melody doesn't have a new note there, and I beg to differ there - The melody doesn't change pitch, but it definitely has a new beat on those - But even following your hypothetical reasoning, why is for example 01:21:818 not clickable, but 01:21:682 - instead? please explain this to me because I don't see any logic behind those rhythm choices at all
    or suddenly 01:28:364 - is being mapped, why? so when i map downbeats with slider tail it's same like im ignoring it? pls man you're 5 years old mapper who have looked about more than 9000 beatmaps in your life and you still don't get what this mean, i put this because i was know this is the right melody patterning since the first attempt this map look like melodical patterning, so i can map downbeat with only a slidertail, and please don't think i ignore that, i really considered this thing since long time ago and i agree with other people who get rid of this, man why this can be your serious problem saying this such non logical pattern when in 2010 and 2011 this pattern was made with such a lot of pro mappers, if you still don't see logic things about this map please retry and try to sync your brain with song itself not just with your sightread skill, 01:28:364 - this is a transitional part so why not?
  7. 01:22:091 (5,6,7,1) - This is a good example of what I said about aesthetics earlier - These notes have a difference of 0,25 in spacing, which is easily visually noticable and looks not quite good to me, but it doesn't change anything for the gameplay at all because the slider-leniency makes all of those really easy anyways, so I don't see any reason not to space them the same. so you want make this map more harder with a jumps and you don't care about the gap on lower diffs? im playing with flow direction and the flow seems quite hard for aiming, and yes slider leniency in here can be affected for a mid rank players with sightreading skill, and remember this map is 220 bpm which it is hard to read and aim, ore faster more hard, and yeah i space them because of that flow reasoning, it's fine at all
    Also, I dislike that pattern, like many others, extremely rhythmically because it doesn't differentiate at all between objects having melody-notes on the or not, here 01:22:773 doesn't have anything at all in the music but gets mapped exactly the same as everything else, or for example 01:24:545 (7,8) - completely ignores the melody bc it maps notes where no melody-notes are, and furthermore this is then mapped exactly the same as 01:26:727 (7,8) even though the melody has more notes there, and this missing differentiation occurs a lot and makes all of it seem so random, because there is literally no clue in the music or anywhere else why you mapped it like that what? in here has no melody 01:24:545 (7,8) - ? are you serious? im 100% sure this is a melody and i mapped like that because of that melody, and the purpose of that mapping is like put some break for players to make sure they can read the patterns which it has follows melody and kick&snare sound, i don't really follow the melody on that at all on that part i follow both so it will be fine since im hitsounding that on right way
  8. Another consequence of that weird spacing you have going on: 01:30:545 (6,7,8,9,1) this is a slow-down in the music, it leads to the next section which is much calmer, and you mapped it slightly less spaced than the previous combo, but this change in spacing has lost all of its meaning since you randomly do that all the time, for example 01:26:727 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) has the exact same spacing even though it is muuch more intense so when i put a consistant spacing and SV is unrankable when it goes through the slow parts with a similiar patterning? please im already know this since long time ago and that's why i mapped this 01:31:636 - part with a small 1/1 break, so why this consistency being your problem when i didn't make any less spaced patterns in every pattern i've made?
  9. 01:33:545 (7,8) - seems like you wanted to emphasize this with the higher spacing, but since it is just forming a straight line with (6) it doesn't emphasize neither (7) nor (8) at all
  10. 01:35:727 (7,8) - to bring more structure into this section, this should be stacked, just as 01:44:454 (7,8) is stacked, otherwise it just seems random again they're something hidden from that pattern you didn't know ealier :^), if you said it's random then you're shitbricks
  11. 01:44:182 (6,7) - You always spaced those with at least x2,0 , why such a low spacing here? i don't get what you mean, im using consistent 1.6x spacing for that slider but why you talking about 2x spacing?

I have to go now, but as far as I've seen, all those points that I already mentioned for the Insane apply to most other sections and most other diffs too, it's just an overall feeling of confusion because it isn't clear at all what you are trying to emphasize, patterns play extremely different than others even though the same is happening in the music, and on top of it all it looks really messy, for which I see no reason because the gameplay isn't that great either, just confusing and feeling very forced most of the time since the emphasis doesn't feel natural or logical please enjoy the game, this is the game don't take it so deeply just because this should be ranked and you're the only one who dislike this so much when lot people liked this, for me it's good for the game so it can be good for the others too, im trying to make this map with various patterns spacing and etc because i want it and im doing it so intentionally while people says this random at first time they will notice something in lot of tries so they can understand why i map like this
I'm really looking forward to your response for all of this as I don't see much reasoning behind any of it, and I can gladly continue this for all other diffs if you find it helpful, but I feel like this is a very general problem of this mapset that isn't really moddable since it's the fundamentals that seem lacking here. im trying to answer your problem at all and it seems you don't give me any clue since im testing this map many times and i don't see the problem about this all (and since you don't give me the guide how to fix you just make me feels so uncomfortable with that since you're trying to make me remap everything as you want, and that's a rude thing at all)
about the hyper i'll contact Aia for that, so yeah
Bonsai
Wow, you misunderstood like half of my points, #languagebarrierisstrong
Oh, thanks for calling me a shitbrick, and also thanks for brushing off my two hours invested in looking at this map as "sightread skill"

Fort wrote:

Bonsai wrote:

Okay I got some time to look at some of the other diffs too this time~
Generally, the soft-hitnormal is basically inaudible for most intense sections to me, I don't get any feedback at all while playing, and even the drum-hitnomral isn't really audible either, so I'd try to either boost the volume of the current hitnormal or find some other hitsound to replace it i think it's audible for me, i can hear the hitsound in 100% volume, well the sound of hitdrum and hitsoft is same i think I know, that's why I wrote that you should try to amplify the current one. At least try to get some more opinions on this, bc just because you can slightly hear it in the editor doesn't mean it gives you any feedback while playing and smashing your keys

some basics for Hyper
  1. Why are you only NC every second measure from 03:33:818 - on? I mean the map is slightly denser but the music doesn't change its pace at all or anything like that i want to put interesting custom combo there, so why not because it creates imbalance in how the hp-drain works since you never put so few NCs except in the first half of the intro. If there isn't any other reason than "I wanted to make it interesting" then please don't do it as it doesn't follow the music.


Insane
  1. Why is 00:52:364 not even clickable when 00:50:182 (1) is even a 1/1-slider? imo a 1/1-slider would fit there too SV transition on next patterning, wow Please try to explain this better as I don't understand what you mean - I don't see any SV-change on the next combo, nor do I see how that influences this at all
  2. 00:54:545 (1) - I understand neither the big jump nor the SV-increase, there is a slight increasing whoosh-sound >starting< there but that only becomes noticable after a bit more time; imo raising spacing and SV here already takes away excitement from when the next section starts
    Related to that, it is imo pretty weird that 00:56:182 (1) has higher SV but then it slows down at 00:56:727 (1) - again, if you followed that previous point and not raised the SV at 00:54:545 (1) then raising it to x1,5 at 00:56:182 (1) would already have the same kick-effect but avoid this slow-down-effect there is no such slow down effect since i put right patterning to deal with that, and since i put stack on 00:56:591 (2,1) - it will be alright when i put SV like that That effect is there because the player expects it to be the same SV but it is slower, so they have to slow down their initial movement. Have you tried doing what I suggested?
  3. 00:57:818 (5,6,7) - is the spacing so broken on purpose? nvm, seems like it is - About the whole section from 00:56:727 on: It is extremely confusing to me why you switch around with the spacing so much - The first two combos play relatively equal, then all of a sudden huge jumps at 01:01:500 (2,3,4,5,6) but then a huge slow-down directly afterwards at 01:02:182 (6,7,8,1) -; or, a really long really slow section at 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - but then suddenly a rather big jump onto 01:10:773 (5) out of nowhere - Along with the seemingly random switching between the different lines of rhythm, I don't get what you try to emphasize at all, the different rhythms contradict each other a lot but on top of that the spacing varies randomly too, all in all this seems extremely messy to me (not even mentioning that the inconstant spacing of the 1/4s makes the aesthetics look really messy too, varying between anything from x2,0 to x3,0 whilst having almost the same gameplay effect doesn't make sense to me at all - Try to have a certain distance for certain types of gaps, don't just place them remotely random, it's extremely weird to sometimes see equal spacing between followpoints, then uneven spacings, then a follow-point being half-hidden under the circle already or one additional follow-point showing a bit) so various spacing in insane diff is not okay for you? remember i put this name as insane diff the rule is the insane diff can be mapped with any distance snap, and you must put the distancing relatively, this part has relatively spaced and structured well so for me it's really okay since the all spacing in this part is clearly visible and can be doable in gameplay without any problems of flow about that one. for me the sudden spacing and etc is okay to aim since i put a 2x slider SV to make sure people can do better aim for the map, i give people lot of concentration on here so i put some custom spacing there, and yes about 01:05:454 - this is the half of the parts so i think it's okay if i reduce the spacing jumps there since it has different transition part on 01:09:818 - with a relatively high spacing there, thanks for this but i think i don't want to change this .. 1.: I didn't mean that you shouldn't use different spacing, I meant that the aesthetics would look a lot more structured if you used a certain spacing for certain types of emphasis, for example using x1,9 for regular beats and x2,5 for beats that you really want to emphasize - For example stuff like 00:56:727 (1,2,3) or 00:57:273 (3,4,5) looks visually irregular, spacing them evenly would have no effect on the gameplay but help the overall aesthetics a lot. 2.: I would love if you could actually explain your structure to me because I can't detect any structure at all, otherwise I wouldn't have pointed it out. I am not saying that it is not playable or that it has bad flow, I just simply don't understand why you make it switch around between combos being not spaced at all and combos having a lot of jumps in them when the music stays the exact same, I am looking for reasons. A few more specific examples so you can explain them indicidually:
    Why is 01:03:000 (8,1) spaced so low when the previous major downbeats had big jumps onto them, like 00:58:773 (8,1) and 01:00:954 (9,1) - ?
    Why is 00:58:227 (6,7) spaced so low compared to other kicks like 00:57:136 (2,3) - 00:59:182 (2,3) and 01:00:273 (6,7) - ?
    Why has this whole part 01:02:182 (6,7,8,1,2) so low spacing compared to the whole rest of this section so far?
    Why is 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4) spaced so low compared to 01:06:545 (4,5,6,1) - ?
    etc
  4. 01:21:000 - Missing hitsound? I'm not checking them bc after looking at the Hyper I feel like you should recheck all hitsounds in all diffs yourself again, but this one really sticks out i think im doing this really intentional because of higher diffs on there, on hyper it looks okay since we put continuous patterning there, so there is no problem with the hitsounding But what's the reasoning behind it? Why did you even map that beat when you didn't do it in your higher difficulties? Since it's mapped like all other beats it just seems like a mistake, how is the player supposed to know your intention?
  5. I already find it quite weird that you ignore all minor downbeats from 01:13:909 (7) on, like 01:15:273 - 01:17:454 - etc because that creates basically 3/4-gaps of not doing anything for the player even though there is still much happening, and I guess your reasoning for that is that the melody doesn't have a new note there, and I beg to differ there - The melody doesn't change pitch, but it definitely has a new beat on those - But even following your hypothetical reasoning, why is for example 01:21:818 not clickable, but 01:21:682 - instead? please explain this to me because I don't see any logic behind those rhythm choices at all
    or suddenly 01:28:364 - is being mapped, why? so when i map downbeats with slider tail it's same like im ignoring it? pls man you're 5 years old mapper who have looked about more than 9000 beatmaps in your life and you still don't get what this mean, i put this because i was know this is the right melody patterning since the first attempt this map look like melodical patterning, so i can map downbeat with only a slidertail, and please don't think i ignore that, i really considered this thing since long time ago and i agree with other people who get rid of this, man why this can be your serious problem saying this such non logical pattern when in 2010 and 2011 this pattern was made with such a lot of pro mappers, if you still don't see logic things about this map please retry and try to sync your brain with song itself not just with your sightread skill, 01:28:364 - this is a transitional part so why not? Sorry for using a word that appearently triggers you to throw insults around, let me put it another way: I think you can agree with me that a sliderhead gives more emphasis than a slidertail, because the player has to click on the head, right? Now I know that you are not strictly ignoring the downbeats, but you are giving beats like 01:15:136 or 01:17:727 more emphasis than 01:15:273 or 01:18:000 even though the melody has the same beats on both notes, but the basic rhythm / drums give those beats on the tails additional intensity, so I simply don't understand why you emphasize weaker beats more than stronger beats. Emphasizing those downbeats would not impact your melodical patterning at all since the melody has beats there as well. I have nothing against offbeat-sliders in general, in fact I love them when they fit and use them a lot myself, but I only love and use them when there is a reason to emphasize an offbeat more than an onbeat, I don't see that reason here.
    About the argument "this is a transitional part so why not?": The music does not change there at all yet, and just because a few seconds later there will be different stuff happening does not change anything about the music at that particular part yet. 01:27:818 (2,3,4) is no different to 01:19:091 (2,3,4) except that the pitch is higher, imo that's no reason to completely change the rhythm all of a sudden.
  6. 01:22:091 (5,6,7,1) - This is a good example of what I said about aesthetics earlier - These notes have a difference of 0,25 in spacing, which is easily visually noticable and looks not quite good to me, but it doesn't change anything for the gameplay at all because the slider-leniency makes all of those really easy anyways, so I don't see any reason not to space them the same. so you want make this map more harder with a jumps and you don't care about the gap on lower diffs? im playing with flow direction and the flow seems quite hard for aiming, and yes slider leniency in here can be affected for a mid rank players with sightreading skill, and remember this map is 220 bpm which it is hard to read and aim, ore faster more hard, and yeah i space them because of that flow reasoning, it's fine at all ..No, I don't want you to make jumps here or make anything harder at all, all I want is that you make the spacing visually equal by either making (5,6) slightly bigger or (6,7,1) slightly smaller. As I said it would make not difference for gameplay at all but help the aesthetics. (also I don't see what's supposed to be so special or hard about your flow lol)
    Also, I dislike that pattern, like many others, extremely rhythmically because it doesn't differentiate at all between objects having melody-notes on the or not, here 01:22:773 doesn't have anything at all in the music but gets mapped exactly the same as everything else, or for example 01:24:545 (7,8) - completely ignores the melody bc it maps notes where no melody-notes are, and furthermore this is then mapped exactly the same as 01:26:727 (7,8) even though the melody has more notes there, and this missing differentiation occurs a lot and makes all of it seem so random, because there is literally no clue in the music or anywhere else why you mapped it like that what? in here has no melody 01:24:545 (7,8) - ? are you serious? im 100% sure this is a melody and i mapped like that because of that melody, and the purpose of that mapping is like put some break for players to make sure they can read the patterns which it has follows melody and kick&snare sound, i don't really follow the melody on that at all on that part i follow both so it will be fine since im hitsounding that on right way Sorry, my fault for appearently not explaining it detailed enough: There is no melody at the tail of 01:24:545 (7) but there is one at the tail of (6) but they are mapped the same, and it should be different to 01:27:000 (8) because that one got melody on its tail. The suggestion would be to simply replace 01:24:545 (7) with a circle in order to differentiate between those.
  7. Another consequence of that weird spacing you have going on: 01:30:545 (6,7,8,9,1) this is a slow-down in the music, it leads to the next section which is much calmer, and you mapped it slightly less spaced than the previous combo, but this change in spacing has lost all of its meaning since you randomly do that all the time, for example 01:26:727 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) has the exact same spacing even though it is muuch more intense so when i put a consistant spacing and SV is unrankable when it goes through the slow parts with a similiar patterning? please im already know this since long time ago and that's why i mapped this 01:31:636 - part with a small 1/1 break, so why this consistency being your problem when i didn't make any less spaced patterns in every pattern i've made? ..No, my problem is that you are staying consistent even though the music is not consistent: 01:26:727 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) is just as intense as everything else in this section in the music, but 01:30:545 (6,7,8,9) is way calmer than that because one of the main instruments stopped playing. To put it in different words: My issue is that you map the same thing in the music extremely inconsistent in most of your map, but map inconsistencies of the music consistent in here.
  8. 01:33:545 (7,8) - seems like you wanted to emphasize this with the higher spacing, but since it is just forming a straight line with (6) it doesn't emphasize neither (7) nor (8) at all
  9. 01:35:727 (7,8) - to bring more structure into this section, this should be stacked, just as 01:44:454 (7,8) is stacked, otherwise it just seems random again they're something hidden from that pattern you didn't know ealier :^), if you said it's random then you're shitbricks Can you explain it to me instead of instulting me then? I looked at the repetition of that pattern and I saw that you spaced it out twice at 01:40:091 (7,8) and 01:42:273 (7,8) and then stacked it twice at 01:44:454 (7,8) and 01:46:636 (7,8) which makes sense, but at the first time you spaced it out at 01:35:727 (7,8) even though following that concept it should already be stacked (since the first spaced one musically already happened at 01:31:364 (9) -)
  10. 01:44:182 (6,7) - You always spaced those with at least x2,0 , why such a low spacing here? i don't get what you mean, im using consistent 1.6x spacing for that slider but why you talking about 2x spacing? You spaced these two objects with x2,0 or more at 01:33:273 (6,7) - 01:35:454 (6,7) - 01:37:636 (6,7) - 01:39:818 (6,7) - 01:42:000 (6,7) and 01:46:364 (6,7) -, the one I pointed out is the only one where you didn't space it that much.
    Also, to come back to one of the earlier points, those seven timestampt I just linked would be a good example where you could imporve the aesthetic sctructure by spacing them the exact same since they are the exact same in the music, right now you are mixing between using x2,0 and x2,25 and x2,33 and x2,4 even though the gameplay-effect is the same, so I think choosing one specific spacing for all of them would only help.

I have to go now, but as far as I've seen, all those points that I already mentioned for the Insane apply to most other sections and most other diffs too, it's just an overall feeling of confusion because it isn't clear at all what you are trying to emphasize, patterns play extremely different than others even though the same is happening in the music, and on top of it all it looks really messy, for which I see no reason because the gameplay isn't that great either, just confusing and feeling very forced most of the time since the emphasis doesn't feel natural or logical please enjoy the game, this is the game don't take it so deeply just because this should be ranked and you're the only one who dislike this so much when lot people liked this, for me it's good for the game so it can be good for the others too, im trying to make this map with various patterns spacing and etc because i want it and im doing it so intentionally while people says this random at first time they will notice something in lot of tries so they can understand why i map like this Just by looking at this thread I see a lot of other people disliking this map too, and a lot of different mappers said the same too, so I doesn't seem like I'm the only one. I highly doubt that players will suddenly understand the map after a lot of tries when I just sat here looking and playing this one difficulty for two hours and still don't udnerstand it at all, seems like something about your concept isn't working. There are a lot of maps that aren't mapped for ranked that people love to play, but people loving it isn't any rational indication of a map's quality at all (or do you really believe that Highscore is the best map of 2015?). Everybody thinks that their map is good for the game, does that automatically make all maps of high enough quality to be ranked? I personally don't think so, if that were the case then we wouldn't have such a strict modding process and quality control that looks at much more than just the objective ranking criteria listed on the wiki.
I'm really looking forward to your response for all of this as I don't see much reasoning behind any of it, and I can gladly continue this for all other diffs if you find it helpful, but I feel like this is a very general problem of this mapset that isn't really moddable since it's the fundamentals that seem lacking here. im trying to answer your problem at all and it seems you don't give me any clue since im testing this map many times and i don't see the problem about this all (and since you don't give me the guide how to fix you just make me feels so uncomfortable with that since you're trying to make me remap everything as you want, and that's a rude thing at all)Sorry if I came across as rude, I am not wanting you to map everything as I want, if that were the case then I would have written "map it like this" instead of trying to explain why your concept seems flawed to me. I hope I could clarify my points enough this time. I have no issues with the pure playability of anything, I just have issues with the missing connection of the map to the song because I can't see any focus on anything from the music, and I am missing the differentiation between different things in the music that are mapped the same in your map and vice versa.
about the hyper i'll contact Aia for that, so yeah
OnosakiHito
Fort, at this point you should really calm down yourself. Not sure if it is really a language barrier, but Bonsai didn't attack you in anyway which would justify your reaction here. You should also go more into his points instead of his personal carrier as mapper which doesn't matter here at all.

Maybe take a day off or so and calm down a bit. I think all of us need that from time to time.
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah

Bonsai wrote:

Wow, you misunderstood like half of my points, #languagebarrierisstrong if you're can speak my lang i'll tell you everything you want from this map, sorry for my noob english reading
Oh, thanks for calling me a shitbrick, and also thanks for brushing off my two hours invested in looking at this map as "sightread skill"

I know, that's why I wrote that you should try to amplify the current one. At least try to get some more opinions on this, bc just because you can slightly hear it in the editor doesn't mean it gives you any feedback while playing and smashing your keys i hear that both on editor and gameplay, no problem

because it creates imbalance in how the hp-drain works since you never put so few NCs except in the first half of the intro. If there isn't any other reason than "I wanted to make it interesting" then please don't do it as it doesn't follow the music.
[/list]

Insane
  1. Why is 00:52:364 not even clickable when 00:50:182 (1) is even a 1/1-slider? imo a 1/1-slider would fit there too SV transition on next patterning, wow Please try to explain this better as I don't understand what you mean - I don't see any SV-change on the next combo, nor do I see how that influences this at all 00:53:454 (1,2,1,2,1) - take a look for next combo and next combo and next combo before you saying this
  2. That effect is there because the player expects it to be the same SV but it is slower, so they have to slow down their initial movement. Have you tried doing what I suggested? yeah im already tried it but seems 1.5 too slow for that, and im following 2x cuz highesr diffs
  3. .. 1.: I didn't mean that you shouldn't use different spacing, I meant that the aesthetics would look a lot more structured if you used a certain spacing for certain types of emphasis, for example using x1,9 for regular beats and x2,5 for beats that you really want to emphasize - For example stuff like 00:56:727 (1,2,3) or 00:57:273 (3,4,5) looks visually irregular, spacing them evenly would have no effect on the gameplay but help the overall aesthetics a lot. 2.: I would love if you could actually explain your structure to me because I can't detect any structure at all , otherwise I wouldn't have pointed it out. I am not saying that it is not playable or that it has bad flow, I just simply don't understand why you make it switch around between combos being not spaced at all and combos having a lot of jumps in them when the music stays the exact same, I am looking for reasons. A few more specific examples so you can explain them indicidually:
    Why is 01:03:000 (8,1) spaced so low when the previous major downbeats had big jumps onto them, like 00:58:773 (8,1) and 01:00:954 (9,1) - ? i put that because i feel like that part has lower pitch than the others, but whatever add more distance
    Why is 00:58:227 (6,7) spaced so low compared to other kicks like 00:57:136 (2,3) - 00:59:182 (2,3) and 01:00:273 (6,7) - ? raise to 2.00x
    Why has this whole part 01:02:182 (6,7,8,1,2) so low spacing compared to the whole rest of this section so far? cuz i make some small rest by providing smaller spacing to make sure players can do this jumps 01:03:273 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) -
    Why is 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4) spaced so low compared to 01:06:545 (4,5,6,1) - ? it's like put low distance then high distance structure on that part, same like 01:07:636 (1) - 01:09:818 (1) - 01:12:000 (1) -
    etc[/color]
  4. 01:21:000 - Missing hitsound? I'm not checking them bc after looking at the Hyper I feel like you should recheck all hitsounds in all diffs yourself again, but this one really sticks out i think im doing this really intentional because of higher diffs on there, on hyper it looks okay since we put continuous patterning there, so there is no problem with the hitsounding But what's the reasoning behind it? Why did you even map that beat when you didn't do it in your higher difficulties? Since it's mapped like all other beats it just seems like a mistake, how is the player supposed to know your intention? 1. on 3 higher diffs has no hitsound like that so players will hear that as a mistake a lot more? 2. the hitsound just on hyper diff basically not my mapping part, so why you forcing me to do your preference when i have my own preference and thinking that was not a mistake?
  5. Sorry for using a word that appearently triggers you to throw insults around, let me put it another way: I think you can agree with me that a sliderhead gives more emphasis than a slidertail, because the player has to click on the head, right? Now I know that you are not strictly ignoring the downbeats, but you are giving beats like 01:15:136 or 01:17:727 more emphasis than 01:15:273 or 01:18:000 even though the melody has the same beats on both notes, but the basic rhythm / drums give those beats on the tails additional intensity, so I simply don't understand why you emphasize weaker beats more than stronger beats. Emphasizing those downbeats would not impact your melodical patterning at all since the melody has beats there as well. I have nothing against offbeat-sliders in general, in fact I love them when they fit and use them a lot myself, but I only love and use them when there is a reason to emphasize an offbeat more than an onbeat, I don't see that reason here.
    About the argument "this is a transitional part so why not?": The music does not change there at all yet, and just because a few seconds later there will be different stuff happening does not change anything about the music at that particular part yet. 01:27:818 (2,3,4) is no different to 01:19:091 (2,3,4) except that the pitch is higher, imo that's no reason to completely change the rhythm all of a sudden.
    i follow melody and ignore downbeats and upbeats on specific parts like this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/186677, and yes as you said the music doesn't change at all, and i put different patterning, im just want to make a variety of patterning, just it, no problem with that since im already put a "audible" notes on every slider and circles, thanks
  6. ..No, I don't want you to make jumps here or make anything harder at all, all I want is that you make the spacing visually equal by either making (5,6) slightly bigger or (6,7,1) slightly smaller. As I said it would make not difference for gameplay at all but help the aesthetics. (also I don't see what's supposed to be so special or hard about your flow lol) okay
  7. Sorry, my fault for appearently not explaining it detailed enough: There is no melody at the tail of 01:24:545 (7) but there is one at the tail of (6) but they are mapped the same, and it should be different to 01:27:000 (8) because that one got melody on its tail. The suggestion would be to simply replace 01:24:545 (7) with a circle in order to differentiate between those. 01:22:909 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - consistency of patterning, remember you still can play higher diffs with more complex patterning when i put simple patterning there, just it i can say, so it's okay if i didnt change patterning to circle there
  8. ..No, my problem is that you are staying consistent even though the music is not consistent: 01:26:727 (7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) is just as intense as everything else in this section in the music, but 01:30:545 (6,7,8,9) is way calmer than that because one of the main instruments stopped playing. To put it in different words: My issue is that you map the same thing in the music extremely inconsistent in most of your map, but map inconsistencies of the music consistent in here. 01:29:318 (7,1) - this distance can emphasize every combo on that part, so yeah no need to put more distance on that combo. i map same thing with different pattern to prevent any repetitiveness, some inconsistancy can make this map more interesting to play i think (my opinion and my interpretation about this map)
  9. Can you explain it to me instead of instulting me then? I looked at the repetition of that pattern and I saw that you spaced it out twice at 01:40:091 (7,8) and 01:42:273 (7,8) and then stacked it twice at 01:44:454 (7,8) and 01:46:636 (7,8) which makes sense, but at the first time you spaced it out at 01:35:727 (7,8) even though following that concept it should already be stacked (since the first spaced one musically already happened at 01:31:364 (9) -) 01:37:909 (7,8) - single stack + 01:40:091 (7,8) - single spaced ending pattern, 01:44:454 (7,8) - & 01:46:636 (7,8) - stack twice + 01:48:545 (5,6,7,8) - double spacing pattern, get it? about 01:49:091 - part i swap stack and spaced every part, secret revealed
  10. You spaced these two objects with x2,0 or more at 01:33:273 (6,7) - 01:35:454 (6,7) - 01:37:636 (6,7) - 01:39:818 (6,7) - 01:42:000 (6,7) and 01:46:364 (6,7) -, the one I pointed out is the only one where you didn't space it that much.
    Also, to come back to one of the earlier points, those seven timestampt I just linked would be a good example where you could imporve the aesthetic sctructure by spacing them the exact same since they are the exact same in the music, right now you are mixing between using x2,0 and x2,25 and x2,33 and x2,4 even though the gameplay-effect is the same, so I think choosing one specific spacing for all of them would only help.
    i like that but okay then

Just by looking at this thread I see a lot of other people disliking this map too, and a lot of different mappers said the same too, so I doesn't seem like I'm the only one. I highly doubt that players will suddenly understand the map after a lot of tries when I just sat here looking and playing this one difficulty for two hours and still don't udnerstand it at all, seems like something about your concept isn't working. There are a lot of maps that aren't mapped for ranked that people love to play, but people loving it isn't any rational indication of a map's quality at all (or do you really believe that Highscore is the best map of 2015?). no, im trying to improve that map with this Everybody thinks that their map is good for the game, does that automatically make all maps of high enough quality to be ranked? I personally don't think so, if that were the case then we wouldn't have such a strict modding process and quality control that looks at much more than just the objective ranking criteria listed on the wiki.

Sorry if I came across as rude, I am not wanting you to map everything as I want, if that were the case then I would have written "map it like this" instead of trying to explain why your concept seems flawed to me. I hope I could clarify my points enough this time. I have no issues with the pure playability of anything, I just have issues with the missing connection of the map to the song because I can't see any focus on anything from the music, and I am missing the differentiation between different things in the music that are mapped the same in your map and vice versa. i think this map is really good, i don't have much technical problems here, so yeah i fix some points in here and it should be alright :>
i fix some points there, so i think my map is clear right now

OnosakiHito wrote:

Fort, at this point you should really calm down yourself. Not sure if it is really a language barrier, but Bonsai didn't attack you in anyway which would justify your reaction here. You should also go more into his points instead of his personal carrier as mapper which doesn't matter here at all.

Maybe take a day off or so and calm down a bit. I think all of us need that from time to time.
oh yeah im on it, looks my accent text is really not calm down while im trying to pick good english for this discussion lol, read my reply above to make sure im doing good conversation here
phaZ
on a short note, please remove "110bpm" from the tags. even though there is no online tag for bpm (i believe?) the proper way to filter beatmaps that way is by searching for "bpm=110" in-game

EDIT: Bonsai explained the reason behind it to me
Bonsai
rip formatting, not gonna quote that I guess
In a lot of answers you are saying that you are using different rhythms to create more variety because "some inconsistancy can make this map more interesting", but at the same time you are using the same rhythms at parts that are very different from each other for "consistency of patterning", and that sums up a lot of my problems very well:

You are ignoring the variety offered by the song at so many places, but then you try to force variety at other places where the song stays the same, and that seems to me like the wrong way to do it, because you are not following the song anymore with this. If you follow the song more closely, you will have much more variety at many places, while having your consistent patterning at the parts where the song is consistent too.

This doesn't only apply to the rhythms but also to your spacings - At my question "Why is 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4) spaced so low compared to 01:06:545 (4,5,6,1) - ?" you replied with "it's like put low distance then high distance structure on that part", I see that, but the question is still: Why do you do that? Nothing in the music indicates any increase or decrease of intensity, so why do you do that in your map?

Also, about your whole 'I map this with lower spacing to give the player a rest'-argument: Players don't need those rests when your map has somewhat consistent intensity following the consistent intensity of the music instead of having some big jumps followed by 'rest', no other maps do that and I have never heard a single player complain about needing rest or anything like that. Basically the extreme version of how you are mapping would hypothetically be the definition of a pp-map, mapping a few short, hard patterns to increase the difficulty and making the rest way too easy. If a song calls for continuous intensity, why not map it like that? A player that is comfortable at that level will not need a break, and a player who needs breaks is obviously not at that level yet,



About that part with the stacking and spacing: In your response rn you started counting somewhere in the middle of that section, so let's start anew: 01:31:636 - This is the start of the first section, the first downbeat. 01:33:818 is the second downbeat and you spaced the circles there. 01:36:000 is the third downbeat and you spaced them again. 01:38:182 is the fourth downbeat and you stacked them. Then the section repeats again with the 'new' first downbeat at 01:40:364 where you spaced the circles, same for the second one at 01:42:545 and then at the third and the fourth, so 01:44:727 and 01:46:909 you stacked them. All in all the sequence is

(I added the following two repeats of the section too bc you then started making it structured by always alternating between spaced and stacked, which is fine since it's some kind of structure, but I still can't see any at the first two sections)



And about this point: I obviously looked at the rest, and the earliest SV-change is at 00:54:545 -, what does that have to do with 00:52:364 being clickable or not? I don't see any relation here, that's why I asked you to explain it twice, but you just keep saying 'look at the SV-changes', that doesn't help me at all.
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah

Bonsai wrote:

rip formatting, not gonna quote that I guess
In a lot of answers you are saying that you are using different rhythms to create more variety because "some inconsistancy can make this map more interesting", but at the same time you are using the same rhythms at parts that are very different from each other for "consistency of patterning", and that sums up a lot of my problems very well:
im good at this
You are ignoring the variety offered by the song at so many places, but then you try to force variety at other places where the song stays the same, and that seems to me like the wrong way to do it, because you are not following the song anymore with this. If you follow the song more closely, you will have much more variety at many places, while having your consistent patterning at the parts where the song is consistent too. i don't feel like this "insane" should have a "subjective" placement like you said, atleast im following the song, make this map can be playable and the quality is good for rank and im trying to make sure you understand about my map but you always complain about my placement choices when i don't see any strong reason for that one or some pict that i can be more understanding editor more since im creating this diff to make sure you're "interested" to this "weird" map (in your opinion) i guess, but it's not weird at all, this is just like forcing me to do your style, mapping is happy thing so enjoy the map

This doesn't only apply to the rhythms but also to your spacings - At my question "Why is 01:05:454 (1,2,3,4) spaced so low compared to 01:06:545 (4,5,6,1) - ?" you replied with "it's like put low distance then high distance structure on that part", I see that, but the question is still: Why do you do that? Nothing in the music indicates any increase or decrease of intensity, so why do you do that in your map? okay then, thanks for destroying my preference settings

Also, about your whole 'I map this with lower spacing to give the player a rest'-argument: Players don't need those rests when your map has somewhat consistent intensity following the consistent intensity of the music instead of having some big jumps followed by 'rest', no other maps do that and I have never heard a single player complain about needing rest or anything like that. Basically the extreme version of how you are mapping would hypothetically be the definition of a pp-map, mapping a few short, hard patterns to increase the difficulty and making the rest way too easy. If a song calls for continuous intensity, why not map it like that? A player that is comfortable at that level will not need a break, and a player who needs breaks is obviously not at that level yet, you don't care about lower player but whatever, you think they're nuts so you want put anti rest pattern and put high spacing everywhere, i put lower spacing because im gonna balance the gap between Hyper too, so this map like Hyper+ and Another- map, fixed some spacing



About that part with the stacking and spacing: In your response rn you started counting somewhere in the middle of that section, so let's start anew: 01:31:636 - This is the start of the first section, the first downbeat. 01:33:818 is the second downbeat and you spaced the circles there. 01:36:000 is the third downbeat and you spaced them again. 01:38:182 is the fourth downbeat and you stacked them. Then the section repeats again with the 'new' first downbeat at 01:40:364 where you spaced the circles, same for the second one at 01:42:545 and then at the third and the fourth, so 01:44:727 and 01:46:909 you stacked them. All in all the sequence is
this fucking professor of spacedstacks ._., fix part 1 as spaced, now you can see the pattern 3 and 4 is half parts so i can put 2 stacks to make sure im creating this 4 notes, if you still complaint about that i won't listen because im already explain this before
(I added the following two repeats of the section too bc you then started making it structured by always alternating between spaced and stacked, which is fine since it's some kind of structure, but I still can't see any at the first two sections)



And about this point: I obviously looked at the rest, and the earliest SV-change is at 00:54:545 -, what does that have to do with 00:52:364 being clickable or not? I don't see any relation here, that's why I asked you to explain it twice, but you just keep saying 'look at the SV-changes', that doesn't help me at all. you don't want help yourself i guess, since im saying this again and again i want to put rest because this is last pattern, probably this is 00:53:454 - a transitional pattern with SV changes, so i thikn it's OKAY, and yes since the 00:51:818 (4) - is reverse, you can still feel the downbeat in slidertail, if you still don't feel it please turn on hitsound, so the small break is your problem at all and im sure i dont have problem with thatso i hope you being tolerant with that
thanks, now this discussion is clear since im answering it all, if you still complain about my insane diff put your GD here, i'll wait for 3 days more for that if you can and gimme the prove my map is BAD QUALITY at all, since my map didnt have any SERIOUS problem this map is good to go (and yes i guess you make this ranking procedure more complex and more harder while there is just a small problem in beatmapping and you make it more big and bigger until i can't say anymore about that one), and once again, if you still DON'T agree with this, try to map this song yourself with your mapping preference and try to ninja'd my life. mapping is easy job, what makes it harder is the people's opinion about that maps (yeah if they can't enjoy the game), i tell you once again to enjoy the game and play the map, if you still don't feel comfortable please try again, that's a game precedure, you start then you explore then you know everything.

phaZ wrote:

on a short note, please remove "110bpm" from the tags. even though there is no online tag for bpm (i believe?) the proper way to filter beatmaps that way is by searching for "bpm=110" in-game
i think that tags helping people searching in forum listing too, so i won't change this one i guess
Zallies
i love reading <3
O-Moei
Mother of replies ! :V

yak, numpang support aja, semangat fort ! You're able to do this !
I'm here supporting, praying, and waiting for this XD/

PS : Mereka ga tau seni ente ngemap xd
LigerZero
Jadi pengen remodding tapi kondisi lagi sakit maxam".....

Modding >> ranked > dq > pending > ranked >dq >pending
lit120
ohh boy...
Topic Starter
Ciyus Miapah
NEVER GIVE UP RANK THIS!
Underforest
it's neccesary 110 bpm style in tags? xd
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