cpot wrote:

can someone plz tell me how scratch jacks are allowed when this game doesn't support alternating scratch?

stupud man wrote:

o!m actually does support alternating scratch, but the patterns are still pretty poor even with it imo. I already talked about how the song was bad with controller as well.

cpot wrote:

stupud man wrote:

o!m actually does support alternating scratch, but the patterns are still pretty poor even with it imo. I already talked about how the song was bad with controller as well.

not really since for the second key-bind to register you have to release the first key. it's practically unusable.

pocket-Gao wrote:

oh...hi 皆伝player

victorica_db wrote:

also i think scratch is the important part of 7+1 maps
hard scratch pattern is really equal to unconfortable? did i not follow the music or what ?

MeowPaz wrote:

是我就放着不动了。干嘛ranked找气受

Spy wrote:

There is no 100% comfortable map for you. No matter which map.
Why there is no one complain while they are playing BMS stuffs? O2Jam stuffs even your Stepmania stuffs?
Why there are much circlejerk ranked map but only give a shit here. I swear if not because my friends bother me every day, I won't come back to rank this shit and try to get insulted by you guys.
I'd accept feedback here if it is worth me to change.
I'm wondering how many times you guys point this shit spread issue but really play it once.
Is your judgement absolute? I never think it is an issue.
-----------------------------
Why I didn't reply anything here? It's just a bullshit shit that some kids point it is shit map is a problem that is a problem and whole map is a problem, even the mapper is a problem.
I'm still looking what the fuck you guys will shit here, but it didn't stop.

If you not going to help the map, get the fuck out then.
I'm not interested in listening your shits.
I'll reply again soon.
You could drop your opinions here but you'll never have any rights to teach mapper's how to do, players.

SanadaYukimura wrote:

Player: improve your mapping ability

whatever

Kuo Kyoka wrote:

How about i reduce to 6,2 NPS and don't care the spread from ADV to EXH or GRV etc.?
#riptermsofmusic
#ripflows
#peopleonlycarestheirpps
#gapfromthismapisevenlowerthanothermaps
#ripmapper'staste
#everythingshouldfollowQATsandmappersnwowadays
#osumania2016

Starry- wrote:

Whilst we're here, I'd like to quickly address something in regard to the spread of the 4K difficulties in this mapset. The spread gap isn't necessarily the issue, but rather the difficulty skew in the mapset.

As an example, I'd like to show you the average NPS of each difficulty. Albeit not representative of the true difficulty of each mapset, it still gives a rough idea in terms of density and describes the issue at hand:
NOVICE Lv.9: 4.8 NPS
ADVANCED Lv.12: 9.1 NPS
EXHAUST Lv.13: 10.4 NPS
INFINITE Lv.14: 11.4 NPS
GRAVITY Lv.15: 11.5 NPS
Judging from this, the gap between NOV and ADV is 4.3, whereas the gap between GRV and ADV is 2.4. This honestly shouldn't be the case. (This is a sort of reply to p/4956727 KK's post here - I really think these are completely different cases.)

An attempt to unify the spread difficulty should be made. The main issues with ADV are the dense parts here eg. 00:30:619 - to 00:31:748 -, 01:33:925 - to 01:35:135 -, 01:44:248 - to 01:45:458 - (dense streams with no gaps).

I'll be watching over this thread frequently with no tolerance for posts that aren't civil. Lets do our best to be constructive towards this mapset.

Would recommend to nerf this to something like

Image

I suggest to start the stream at 00:31:103 - mostly due to the snares being the dominant sound that is giving the 1/4 snap feeling instead of the synths.
00:31:022 - And I also doubt that there's a sound here but I think a ghost note is justified and nicely placed if you heavily favor the flow of the streams here, but right now I'm mostly targeting on how you can nerf the difficulty :p

Notice that I omitted the last note due to the song abruptly cutting the 1/4 off, I think it's more relevant to the music that way, but it's not that much of a change, so it's up to you if you want to remove that

Would recommend to buff/make it harder to something like

Image

Basically adding on the 1/2 beat here, I personally find it quite weird that there's no difficulty increment when the song transitions from the 1/1 beat snare to the 1/2 beat snare, hence I see this as a potential spot for you to buff/increase the difficulty here

Similarly

Image

I have provided 2 alternatives, pretty sure there are more but here are my suggestions to increase the difficulty here, same reasoning as before also

I have to agree that this is a really hard part to nerf down to something simpler considering the layering is already defined here (snares+synth+1 cymbal at the front). But I think you can remove the snare layering here to make it simpler, so basically you'll only be left with the synth layer, in which I think is fine too, simplicity may sometimes prove to be better than complexity :p

Image

Pretty much highlights what I'm pointing out, do the synths only, I personally find this simplified version pretty ok i guess lmao, I don't really play easy difficulties haha, I shouldn't be the one to judge

Side note: There's a synth (quite faint one) @ 01:20:216 -, this will help in making the map feel much better in terms of flow

Image

This is for the second half, you can either map like that with the highlighted notes or without the highlighted notes, your choice. I personally find that the version with the highlighted notes is way harder to time and feels very much more complex in rhythm even though it is not that dense

Think it's possible to make this slightly harder, as of now it feels like a drop in difficulty from 01:16:264 - in which I feel doesn't really match the music that much as it is a build up towards the chorus right here, but that's probably just me, here's the suggestion anyways

Image

Just an idea that you could put 1/1s beside the synth rhythm here, this is so that the player can feel the 1/1 snare rhythm build up from this section to the 1/2 jack hammer here 01:24:651 -

stupud man wrote:

[victorica's 8K Leggendaria]
00:10:941 (10941|1) - Remove this, it makes the beginning pattern way too uncomfortable. You're basically guaranteed to miss the note every time, especially on a sightread.

Also, about the scratch jacks:
00:34:974 (34974|0,35081|0,35189|0,35296|0) -
00:37:877 (37877|0,37958|0,38038|0,38119|0,38200|0) -
00:40:135 (40135|0,40243|0,40350|0,40458|0) -
00:58:200 (58200|0,58307|0,58415|0,58522|0) -
01:01:103 (61103|0,61183|0,61264|0,61345|0,61425|0) -

I know I'm sounding redundant here, but these also make the diff extremely uncomfortable. I'd recommend moving these notes out to the other 7 keys instead of making them scratch jacks. I know earlier you stated that removing these will make your map "lose its soul", but honestly that's not a valid excuse whatsoever. In my opinion, you're already overusing scratches in other parts of the song, however they aren't as bad as these scratch jacks. Hopefully you can understand.

Secondly:

They can opt to approximate every chord here, so it would kinda look like this when amended:

Image (Left Scratch)

Image (Right Scratch)

Players mostly don't take the approximation way initially, but it is possible, though it still plays quite harshly in terms of difficulty due to the scratch jacking on keyboards

...the ranking system being a huge wall where you have to satisfy the players in order to get maps ranked...

Spy wrote:

And say it is not about star rating but xxx's gap is too big. Why do you not to ask the fucking composer that why he compose a song which is hard to make a small gap for NOVICE and ADVANCED? So funny.

stupud man wrote:

[victorica's 8K Leggendaria]
00:10:941 (10941|1) - Remove this, it makes the beginning pattern way too uncomfortable. You're basically guaranteed to miss the note every time, especially on a sightread. Nope, we follow kick 00:10:780 (10780|1,10941|1,11103|1) - here, removing will cause flow get break.

Also, about the scratch jacks:
00:34:974 (34974|0,35081|0,35189|0,35296|0) -
00:37:877 (37877|0,37958|0,38038|0,38119|0,38200|0) -
00:40:135 (40135|0,40243|0,40350|0,40458|0) -
00:58:200 (58200|0,58307|0,58415|0,58522|0) -
01:01:103 (61103|0,61183|0,61264|0,61345|0,61425|0) -

I know I'm sounding redundant here, but these also make the diff extremely uncomfortable. I'd recommend moving these notes out to the other 7 keys instead of making them scratch jacks. I know earlier you stated that removing these will make your map "lose its soul", but honestly that's not a valid excuse whatsoever. In my opinion, you're already overusing scratches in other parts of the song, however they aren't as bad as these scratch jacks. Hopefully you can understand.

juankristal wrote:

Well, I want to give a little bit of an opinion here because I see some people complaining a little bit (not sure if me giving an opinion about a map is worth at all, but I kinda feel like doing that).

I just quickly testplayed both Novice and Advanced difs and I have to say that the gap, in my opinion, is a little bit too harsh. You are jumping from barely 1/4 doubles patterns like 1-3 (and some triples as well combined with jumps that in my opinion might be a little bit too much for a Novice but lets just skip that part) to almost no breaks "jumpstreams" at the end. I do believe using just steps should be better for the end, or at least just use the doubles between two full ticks.



Yes, technicaly speaking it doesnt have any unrankeable issue but the thing is that the dif gap between those two are a little bit too much. Imagine a normal tier player trying to transition to hard and they get stomp by this. The dif for me is cool but the spread is an issue.

About mapping that some people need to understand is that you are doing it for the whole community and you need to focus A LOT in spreads (at least in my opinion, one of the most important aspects of a mapset) because you are doing something that directly afects the reputation of the game so it has to be top tier.

Unrankeable stuff is not the thing that you should look for this dif because it is indeed cool but you need to look to other stuff in order to improve it even more. After all, thats the main goal that a mapper that aims for rank should have.

I hope that you can, at least, see my point of view about this and I wish you good luck with the qualify or re-qualify if you finally end up changing stuff.

Evening wrote:

Starry- wrote:

Whilst we're here, I'd like to quickly address something in regard to the spread of the 4K difficulties in this mapset. The spread gap isn't necessarily the issue, but rather the difficulty skew in the mapset.

As an example, I'd like to show you the average NPS of each difficulty. Albeit not representative of the true difficulty of each mapset, it still gives a rough idea in terms of density and describes the issue at hand:
NOVICE Lv.9: 4.8 NPS
ADVANCED Lv.12: 9.1 NPS
EXHAUST Lv.13: 10.4 NPS
INFINITE Lv.14: 11.4 NPS
GRAVITY Lv.15: 11.5 NPS
Judging from this, the gap between NOV and ADV is 4.3, whereas the gap between GRV and ADV is 2.4. This honestly shouldn't be the case. (This is a sort of reply to p/4956727 KK's post here - I really think these are completely different cases.)

An attempt to unify the spread difficulty should be made. The main issues with ADV are the dense parts here eg. 00:30:619 - to 00:31:748 -, 01:33:925 - to 01:35:135 -, 01:44:248 - to 01:45:458 - (dense streams with no gaps).

I'll be watching over this thread frequently with no tolerance for posts that aren't civil. Lets do our best to be constructive towards this mapset.

Just going to give some inputs and extend from Starry-'s idea of increasing the difficulty of NOVICE/decreasing the difficulty of ADVANCED:

00:30:619 - KK's ADVANCED

Would recommend to nerf this to something like

Image

I suggest to start the stream at 00:31:103 - mostly due to the snares being the dominant sound that is giving the 1/4 snap feeling instead of the synths.
00:31:022 - And I also doubt that there's a sound here but I think a ghost note is justified and nicely placed if you heavily favor the flow of the streams here, but right now I'm mostly targeting on how you can nerf the difficulty :p

Notice that I omitted the last note due to the song abruptly cutting the 1/4 off, I think it's more relevant to the music that way, but it's not that much of a change, so it's up to you if you want to remove that

00:38:200 - NOVICE

Would recommend to buff/make it harder to something like

Image

Basically adding on the 1/2 beat here, I personally find it quite weird that there's no difficulty increment when the song transitions from the 1/1 beat snare to the 1/2 beat snare, hence I see this as a potential spot for you to buff/increase the difficulty here

01:01:425 - NOVICE

Similarly

Image

I have provided 2 alternatives, pretty sure there are more but here are my suggestions to increase the difficulty here, same reasoning as before also

01:19:490 - KK's ADVANCED

I have to agree that this is a really hard part to nerf down to something simpler considering the layering is already defined here (snares+synth+1 cymbal at the front). But I think you can remove the snare layering here to make it simpler, so basically you'll only be left with the synth layer, in which I think is fine too, simplicity may sometimes prove to be better than complexity :p

Image

Pretty much highlights what I'm pointing out, do the synths only, I personally find this simplified version pretty ok i guess lmao, I don't really play easy difficulties haha, I shouldn't be the one to judge

Side note: There's a synth (quite faint one) @ 01:20:216 -, this will help in making the map feel much better in terms of flow

Image

This is for the second half, you can either map like that with the highlighted notes or without the highlighted notes, your choice. I personally find that the version with the highlighted notes is way harder to time and feels very much more complex in rhythm even though it is not that dense

01:19:490 - NOVICE

Think it's possible to make this slightly harder, as of now it feels like a drop in difficulty from 01:16:264 - in which I feel doesn't really match the music that much as it is a build up towards the chorus right here, but that's probably just me, here's the suggestion anyways

Image

Just an idea that you could put 1/1s beside the synth rhythm here, this is so that the player can feel the 1/1 snare rhythm build up from this section to the 1/2 jack hammer here 01:24:651 -

01:29:812 - KK's ADVANCED

Same idea here basically, try to remove the snare layer here, go for the simpler pattern :s

--

stupud man wrote:

[victorica's 8K Leggendaria]
00:10:941 (10941|1) - Remove this, it makes the beginning pattern way too uncomfortable. You're basically guaranteed to miss the note every time, especially on a sightread.

Also, about the scratch jacks:
00:34:974 (34974|0,35081|0,35189|0,35296|0) -
00:37:877 (37877|0,37958|0,38038|0,38119|0,38200|0) -
00:40:135 (40135|0,40243|0,40350|0,40458|0) -
00:58:200 (58200|0,58307|0,58415|0,58522|0) -
01:01:103 (61103|0,61183|0,61264|0,61345|0,61425|0) -

I know I'm sounding redundant here, but these also make the diff extremely uncomfortable. I'd recommend moving these notes out to the other 7 keys instead of making them scratch jacks. I know earlier you stated that removing these will make your map "lose its soul", but honestly that's not a valid excuse whatsoever. In my opinion, you're already overusing scratches in other parts of the song, however they aren't as bad as these scratch jacks. Hopefully you can understand.

Just going to give some inputs and elaborate on stupud man's point on the scratch key usage:

Well, firstly we are just going to assume that everyone knows that the scratch key with the notes make it play bad and the mapper doesn't really aim at mapping the map to cater to the players, there are 2 stand points here:

1. It is relevant to the music, it is placed ideally (from the mapper's perspective), therefore there shouldn't be any changes
2. It is relevant to the music, however I feel that the pattern could be improved in terms of how it's played, but I have to accept that it will alter the pattern the mapper has mapped

Personally feel that it isn't that wrong to be fixated on your own opinion and be persistent about it, mapping quality is subjective in all of cases, be it the mapper or the audience.

But considering you're not really catering this towards the audience (the players), I feel that the map wouldn't really move forward due to the ranking system being a huge wall where you have to satisfy the players in order to get maps ranked.

I will just look at the more extreme cases where I highly recommend to change due to it being almost physically impossible to play through instead of those which are "somewhat" playable, in which I think it can be passed

00:37:877 (37877|0,37958|0,38038|0,38119|0,38200|0) - victorica's Leggendaria

You probably have heard the argument that osu!mania is meant to be played on a keyboard a million times, but it is a fact that most players do play with a keyboard and you have to accept that

I don't think players at this skill level would be able to hit jacks at 186 BPM 5 times in a row perfectly, unless you're really just aiming for most players to not be able to hit 98% (even 99%), I would suggest to amend this to make it easier.

Another point is that if you were to consider people using scratches on their right, they would have to jack at 186 BPM and change fingering every 1/2 and chord correctly and be able to transition into 1/4 later, I think that's a bit too much? Well, of course it would be ok if you don't really want players to do well in this part anyways (no sarcasm)

01:01:103 (61103|0,61183|0,61264|0,61345|0,61425|0) - victorica's Leggendaria

Pretty much the same argument here, but I think it's worse for those using their right to scratch basically

00:34:974 (34974|0,35081|0,35189|0,35296|0) - victorica's Leggendaria

Kinda on the edge of agreeing and disagreeing with these 1/3 jacks, I personally find the speed of the jacks fine however, players can use 2 ways to hit this:

Firstly:
Players can opt to do it legitly, so with this assumption, we can analyze how players should hit it,

For Left Scratch:

Column: 12345678

| Chord on 124

| Hit 8 6 as a 1/4 Roll AND Hit 1 after the first chord after a 1/3 interval (I think this is fine if you have enough finger independence)

| Hit 1 4 {12} as a single handed trill (This is probably the problem when it comes to hitting it legitly, the chord at the end make it exponentially harder to time and hit correctly, I think it's fine if you were to just use 141 only)

For Right Scratch:

Column: 12345678

| Chord on 138

| Grace on 78 then back to 5 then back to 8 (I think you can see what's the problem here)

| Hit 3

| Chord on {168}

Secondly:

They can opt to approximate every chord here, so it would kinda look like this when amended:

Image (Left Scratch)

Image (Right Scratch)

Players mostly don't take the approximation way initially, but it is possible, though it still plays quite harshly in terms of difficulty due to the scratch jacking on keyboards

And please stop shitposting if you just want to post emojis and memes

Hydria wrote:

Spy wrote:

And say it is not about star rating but xxx's gap is too big. Why do you not to ask the fucking composer that why he compose a song which is hard to make a small gap for NOVICE and ADVANCED? So funny.

http://puu.sh/nG7Vb/7d3385dd5f.osz

Spy wrote:

First, thank you for making this. I've checked it. I can't call it bad, but I'd say I don't really like it. Well, I think it is very easy, just because I don't like LN usage even if it makes sense. and full of stair patterns. It is not the map I want to get anyway. So conclusion is taste issue I think. But anyway still thank you for making this, thank you for efforts.

OniJAM wrote:

要GD吗 算了我太懒

Spy wrote:

Some patterns in the diff adjust to be easier, but scratch didn't removed. There are many similar stuffs appeared in Ryu* - Yukizukiyo, but nobody mentioned it at the time. It makes no sense that same stuff allowed before and now we must change for a player, or very less players.

DoNotMess wrote:

i was asked by spy to mod avalon's diff .. hope this helps XD

Avalon's 4K ADVANCED Lv.11

1|2|3|4

00:02:393 - i suggest add something here as this is supposed to be for advanced (00:02:554 - and this too) and so on i would like to make a difference between Spy's NOVICE diff and KK's diff, i think it's okay
00:17:393 - kick sound... well, i just need to focus for synth sound only here ;w;
00:22:232 - add something here okay
00:27:716 - here too for kick sound focus to synth only here, i would like to give a break
00:30:619 - here too for snare okay
01:25:861 - add something here...feels too empty X( i can't make this part harder or star will be boom, sorry x(
01:38:845 (98845|2) - what is this for lol oki deleted
01:39:732 - i suggest make this ln until 01:40:135 - or 1/4 before it hmm, i'll consider about it later
sorry for very short mod, i hope it helps XD