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Things you'd like to see most in ranked mania maps? (poll)

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Things (or changes) you'd like to see most in ranked mania maps

More easy maps targeted towards beginning mania players (for any keymode)
31
4.51%
More difficult maps targeted towards 'ET' players (for any keymode)
102
14.83%
More "anti-meta" keys ranked (any keymode excluding 4K or 7K)
52
7.56%
Ability to rank keys outside of 4~9K (1K, 2K, 3K, 10K+)
27
3.92%
Wider variety of song choices in mania maps
100
14.53%
Higher quality of maps in general
115
16.72%
Ability to rank maps like dump files (may have ghost notes but generally follow the song)
53
7.70%
Ability to separate the mania rankings by keymode (ex. 4K has a separate ranking from 7K)
110
15.99%
Ability for unranked mods (DT, RD, etc.) to be rankable (with some balance changes)
83
12.06%
Other
15
2.18%
Total votes: 688
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Shoegazer
Can someone give a solid argument as to why dumps should be ranked? Bobbias gave his viewpoint on such and it was eventually an agree to disagree thing.

This is coming from someone who has been pumping out dump charts for the past year or so.
Arzenvald
woops here we go again :^)
Aqo
where's the option to rank maps that are actually good
Topic Starter
Jinjin

Aqo wrote:

where's the option to rank maps that are actually good
"Higher quality of maps in general"
Aqo
pocket-gao's Violet Soul is really nice though. more of that please

less 123567 ppsmash maps please
Bobbias

Shoegazer wrote:

Can someone give a solid argument as to why dumps should be ranked? Bobbias gave his viewpoint on such and it was eventually an agree to disagree thing.

This is coming from someone who has been pumping out dump charts for the past year or so.
Yeah, still basically no progress on writing up a real wall of text on that subject lol.

Anyway, personally I feel like dumps are more or less an inevitable element to rhythm games where people are able to create their own charts. Dumps allow for extreme levels of creativity from the mapper (since they are no longer restricted to following the music in a note for note fashion). This freedom comes with it's own issues of course. A carefully constructed dump will usually have very interesting patterns that still follow the structure of the music and should also have a lot of emphasis on pattern playability, while a poorly constructed one may have little or no real structure at all, and patterns that may be essentially unplayable.

Because of this level of variability between good and bad, allowing dumps to be rankable would mean that any dumps being considered for ranking should definitely be looked at by someone who has a very strong understanding of structure and pattern playability. On the other hand, allowing dumps would allow for some very unique maps that have a very strong sense of personality due to the structure/patterns used, which is something I feel osu!mania is lacking. While there are certainly still several maps with a strong sense of personality, a large number of ranked mania maps right now feel very samey and uninteresting to me.

For reference, I would consider many of the extremely difficult o2jam and BMS charts as dumps, even though they aren't generally referred to as such by their respective communities.
Rilene
I would like to see anything that isn't...

  1. Hold-note spam, I'm ok with if it is used properly.
  2. Weird pattern out of nowhere.
  3. 1/2 on calm off-chorus and 1/1 on intense chorus.
Basically these and some bit more on the poll.
BilliumMoto

Rilene wrote:

I would like to see anything that isn't...

  1. Hold-note spam, I'm ok with if it is used properly.
  2. Weird pattern out of nowhere.
  3. 1/2 on calm off-chorus and 1/1 on intense chorus.
Basically these and some bit more on the poll.
A direct result of the mapping meta that certain prolific mappers have established in the past and has become the standard
Shoegazer

Bobbias wrote:

Anyway, personally I feel like dumps are more or less an inevitable element to rhythm games where people are able to create their own charts. Dumps allow for extreme levels of creativity from the mapper (since they are no longer restricted to following the music in a note for note fashion). This freedom comes with it's own issues of course. A carefully constructed dump will usually have very interesting patterns that still follow the structure of the music and should also have a lot of emphasis on pattern playability, while a poorly constructed one may have little or no real structure at all, and patterns that may be essentially unplayable.

Because of this level of variability between good and bad, allowing dumps to be rankable would mean that any dumps being considered for ranking should definitely be looked at by someone who has a very strong understanding of structure and pattern playability. On the other hand, allowing dumps would allow for some very unique maps that have a very strong sense of personality due to the structure/patterns used, which is something I feel osu!mania is lacking. While there are certainly still several maps with a strong sense of personality, a large number of ranked mania maps right now feel very samey and uninteresting to me.

For reference, I would consider many of the extremely difficult o2jam and BMS charts as dumps, even though they aren't generally referred to as such by their respective communities.
Thanks for the response, although we've probably discussed this time and time again.

Honestly my reasoning for dumps not being rankable is simply because it's leaning far too much to what makes a chart enjoyable to play through. The end product (i.e. how much you enjoy a chart/how fun it is) is based on two factors, musical relevancy and playability (pattern choices, difficulty consistency and so on). The reason why we make dump charts/overmapped charts is because we want to make charts to music that we (probably) enjoy but the music as it is simply do not justify the difficulty of the chart that you want to make. Without speeding up music, a chart can be harder in two ways: either the chart will be overlayered, or the chart will have ghost notes. Both of these strongly decrease the musical relevancy of the chart. The latter is a given and everyone agrees that this would create a "dump" chart, but I don't understand why people don't see the same for the former. Just because there are sounds that could justify these chords does not mean that it is not a dump. While there is no universal form of charting, nonstop three to four note chords in a 4K chart would represent that the song is extremely cacophonous because it takes up 80%-100% of the playing field. In most cases, they do not represent the song you're charting.

So you have to draw a line as to how much musical relevancy is enough. I don't think adhering to your own set of rules for your dump chart is sufficient, because consistency is a very simple thing and it should be fundamental for any chart that is actually "good". So how dumpy is too dumpy? Do you stop with charts like King For A Day, where it's almost completely based on the atmosphere of the song with a layering scheme that is far from representative from the song (a syllable is almost always a four-note 1/6 burst, etc.) itself, or do we stop at charts like Ice Angel or dreamless wanderer or AiAe, where sounds are actually present to somewhat justify them but they are far from what the music actually represents? Not to mention it's not really a clear-cut thing for some charts either.. there's just way too much subjectivity involved and even if you managed to put in some criteria as to how dumpy it is, there's still edge cases. It's just not worth the trouble because the ranking criteria is supposed to be a set of rules.

Can dumps be creative? Absolutely, I've seen a ton of creative dump charts and I do want to make creative dump charts some time in the future, but the thing is that are there many people who can be that creative just because they can create their own set of rules? It's not like the rules of mapping normally are restrictive, honestly. They're really not that restrictive; the only reason why it seems that way is because of how insanely limited the song choices are in this game. Most of these are extremely generic rhythm game music (SDVX comes to mind) or anime OPs which are also generic in structure. Music like breakcore, progressive rock/metal (though this is somewhat understandable, given how bad the osu editor is and time signature bullshit, that's a suggestion I'd like to see) and classical are all genres that are completely overlooked by the mania community. I don't see how allowing dumps in game would actually change the variety of maps that much, considering that the community is already creating artificial barriers as to what to chart to begin with. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone - I know a ton of mappers who chart unique music (Agka and Billium come to mind), but these people don't really bother getting their charts ranked for a multitude of reasons that aren't exclusive to "dumps not being allowed". Allowing dumps won't change this at all.

I could honestly go on about about how allowing dump charts would be far more of a nuisance than it is to not and how there are some communities that have a "ranking criteria" system (FFR) and it works just fine, but they're not entirely comparable. The main points is that I feel that dumps just err far too much towards one factor (playability) that makes a chart enjoyable (and I'd argue that the other extreme (musical relevancy) is just as bad, but unfortunately due to how the ranking criteria works the mapper can reject any suggestions regarding playability as long as notes are consistent), and not trying to carry a finesse that creates memorable and replayable charts, and the fact that it just creates too much ambiguity and problems than it would have benefits (more maps).

Of course, this is just a subjective response from someone who has been raised in a community with stern standards. I know that there are people who play other rhythm games with charting principles that are far more lax and liberal and vehemently disagree with my viewpoint, and I'd like to see other reasons why they want dump charts to be ranked.

post count +1.
Rilene

BilliumMoto wrote:

A direct result of the mapping meta that certain prolific mappers have established in the past and has become the standard
Damn. :(
Arzenvald
less 123 567 pp spam! agreed

they are essentially reduce the quality of mapset significantly if they're being used too frequent in many parts inside a note chart.. there's always better way to represent the rhythm without using spam-ish pattern

and regarding dump, i don't want to write long post for it..
anything that breaking the limit of instrument & doesn't follows the rhythm inside BGA properly, is simply not ready for qualification.. ( no i don't say its unrankable )
EtienneXC
Is "less anime maps" an option?
Topic Starter
Jinjin

EtienneXC wrote:

Is "less anime maps" an option?
I'd list that under 'wider variety of song choices'
Tbh, while I was making the poll, I thought about making an option for 'less TV sizes' (I mean, it is a popular opinion) but decided against it
Arzenvald
=A= there's no way to reduce anime size getting ranked, or SDVX size, or BMS size, or any size like L M S XL etc etc huehue
Kamikaze

ExUsagi wrote:

=A= there's no way to reduce anime size getting ranked
https://gist.github.com/peppy/1287114f461bacf88bff
Rilene
rip mirro tatoe
XeoStyle

Shoegazer wrote:

Most of these are extremely generic rhythm game music (SDVX comes to mind) or anime OPs which are also generic in structure. Music like breakcore, progressive rock/metal (though this is somewhat understandable, given how bad the osu editor is and time signature bullshit, that's a suggestion I'd like to see) and classical are all genres that are completely overlooked by the mania community.
this.
Arzenvald
OMG ITS HAPPENING!!1! MOM GET THE CAMERA!1!1!!1

i was expecting that since like.. 1 year-ish ago o.o

edit : my tv size map not getting sued heueeeeee
Rilene
SDVX and TV size maps is easier to rank compared to others in o!m. ;-;
SpectorDG
need more SDVX edit maps
all keys ? of course
JamesHappy

Rilene wrote:

SDVX and TV size maps is easier to rank compared to others in o!m. ;-;
TFW there are less count of modders that can mod marathon maps.
Rilene
Finding o!m marathon modders is hard as finding twin bananas from a pile of bananas.
Pope Gadget

SpectorDG wrote:

need more SDVX edit maps
all keys ? of course
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hydria
- Less anime / TV Size / SDVX maps
- Less overweighted maps due to jumptrills
- More jack maps
- More freedom with mapping for ranked
- Easier way to rank marathon maps
- More interesting higher star maps
- More maps that are actually good

etc etc it all makes sense
lenpai
More marathon maps pls
also chiptune/fakebit
JamesHappy

SpectorDG wrote:

need more SDVX edit maps
WOOSHHH
pls no

SpectorDG wrote:

all keys ? of course
inb4 just 4K only
Frim4503
my vote

More "anti-meta" keys ranked (any keymode excluding 4K or 7K) [like 5k or 6k]
Wider variety of song choices in mania maps [like remix song, DnB, nightcore song]
Higher quality of maps in general [like note amount, SV usage taht fit perfectly in the song]
other [mania map that only folow drum song. tbh i want to see maps something like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81166 again in osu.]

just letting out my opinion
please don't hate me for this >.<
Rilene
"Wider variety of song choices in mania maps"

About this, I don't think this matter any at all as you can have any songs in osu!, even songs with inappropriate languages or sound.
Shoegazer
Most of the options can already be done (ones about having more hard maps, a larger variety of music, better charts, being able to rank anything that's not 4K/7K), it's really up to the community to decide whether or not they actually want to start the movement.
Kamikaze
For the record I'm perfectly fine with TV size or 4K maps as long as they aren't 90% of ranked mania maps available. This may be an exaggeration but whatever. Also I'm sure that most of you already know what I'm fighting for as I've been going loud about it for the past year or so, while working on those mapsets as well. As for the variety of music, I'm all for it, but I don't feel confident enough myself to map stuff such as progressive rock and/or breakcore which may also be why there's not a lot of those maps going for rank. Pepole generally tend to map something that's easier to map/handle even if it means that it's less interesting. I will do what I can to help bring those maps to a ranked state, same with marathons for which cause I've also been loud for a bit, but I won't do much myself. Maybe changes to kudosu system to reward modding longer maps/higher amount of difficulties more would motivate pepole to mod tem, but that's not up to me. Like Shoegazer said, most of those options are very easy to execute, we just need more than few pepole to actually care.
Jole

Rilene wrote:

"Wider variety of song choices in mania maps"

About this, I don't think this matter any at all as you can have any songs in osu!, even songs with inappropriate languages or sound.
While osu offers the freedom of having any song you'd like, there are not enough mappers or modders that want to take care of anything but the usual TV size or SDVX bollocks. That is the reason why this option is in the poll
Kamikaze
Something that I forgot to add. What I've learned being part of this community for a bit is that if you want something ranked (for example more anti-meta maps, more keysounded maps, more xxx genre songs) talking about it won't do shit. You have to step up and do it for yourself and at the same time do everything in your power to spread awareness. That's what I did with anti-meta project and you can see the results, pepole are starting to map more keymodes, a lot more 8K is getting ranked and even usage of term anti-meta itself as a referrence to 5/6/8/9K is something I've started/spread across with big enough effort.
That's also why I don't like threads like this one. Talking about how much you want xyz maps to get ranked is useless because pepole will nod and go on without doing much about it. Don't talk about the change. Be the change. I'll support you as much as I can.
Cuppp
Make 1 diff rankable regardless of length of song, remove stupid 3 of either E/N/H/I rule.
Make dumps rankable (ghost notes n stuff) as long as the chart plays well with the song.
Different rankings for key-set. Currently it's actually fucking stupid making you play all keys to be on par with rest, not that rank actually matters, but since it's already there, it kinda does.
Rilene
Dumps being rankable would be nice if used properly like key mapping, the example would be like the song has intense 1/2 on ending chorus, using 1/4 with hitsounds to emphasizing would be awesome.


Jole wrote:

Rilene wrote:

"Wider variety of song choices in mania maps"

About this, I don't think this matter any at all as you can have any songs in osu!, even songs with inappropriate languages or sound.
While osu offers the freedom of having any song you'd like, there are not enough mappers or modders that want to take care of anything but the usual TV size or SDVX bollocks. That is the reason why this option is in the poll
Oh well, that's kinda right.
Usual TV size or SDVX songs is too mainstream, I saw them almost everywhere in osu!mania beatmap listing.

Unless if it is like 7* on 7K or 6* on 4K then that would be something interesting or it is fully-hitsounded then that would be something unique.


-Kamikaze- wrote:

That's also why I don't like threads like this one. Talking about how much you want xyz maps to get ranked is useless because pepole will nod and go on without doing much about it. Don't talk about the change. Be the change. I'll support you as much as I can.
I want to rank by BMS map but no modders, even requested at modding queue. :(
Raediaufar
I'm agree with kami's opinion. If you want to have more ranked maps that based on what you've choosed in the poll above you need to be the one who do that. I'm also have already started to map full length song and even try to rank it. But for me, it's a bit difficult to map outside 4k, 6k and 7k because of my lack of experience on playing other keys besides that.

And for dump maps I have to disagree, lots of them are fun tbh but it's not something I would like to see in ranked maps later on. Like using 4 notes for only kick sound and map 1/6 sound to 1/12 is not good and makes playing nonsense.
Redon
Rilene

Redon wrote:

- Consistency within and across diffs
- Difficulty balance, don't make the last third of the map twice as hard as the rest
- No LN spam/layering abuse, treat LN ends as a note of its own, pay attention to when a sound ends and what warrants an LN, also see above
- No SV that aren't sightreadable, look at Agka's guide on how to make them playable
Basically these are needed.
Bobbias
The sad part of all this is that those should all be dealt with by BNs being more careful about what gets nominated. Of course, the other issue is that when someone else points out problems with those things, it's up to the mapper to make changes and fix their map.
Elementaires

Cuppp wrote:

Make 1 diff rankable regardless of length of song, remove stupid 3 of either E/N/H/I rule.
Rilene

Elementaires wrote:

Cuppp wrote:

Make 1 diff rankable regardless of length of song, remove stupid 3 of either E/N/H/I rule.
But we still have problem, if we remove this ranking criteria, it would have to affect other gamemode as well.
And isn't doesn't it requires 2 diff?
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