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[Announcement] CTB Modder Association

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Total Posts
31
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Ascendance
(format copied from the Taiko Nominator Association announcement, thanks oji)

Members
  1. Ascendance
  2. Kurokami - Quality Assurance Team
  3. alienflybot - Beatmap Nomination Group
  4. Equim
  5. Sey
  6. WildOne94


Hello everyone!

I'd like to announce the creation of a Team Queue to unify the mappers and modders of a CTB community that is severely lacking currently. After some discussion, many of us felt like it was time to make a change, and creating this queue should be able to push the highest quality mapsets quicker to rank, as well as help new mappers and modders improve their overall quality.


Why did we form a team queue?

Currently, CTB ranking system is in a horrible state. With very few BN's currently active, this organized queue should funnel all maps into one place, in which if your map is accepted, could guarantee you a mod from a BN or QAT. This Team Queue will be used to take the immense workload off of our current staff team in order to evenly split the work between all participating members and further enhance the quality of maps in our community. This queue will also improve the speed at which maps are ranked, as now, all maps are in one place for our BN's and QAT's to check should they deem the set worthy of an icon. This team is open to any player by a vote of the current staff of our queue. That is to say, if you are found to be an active modder with high quality modding, you will likely be voted in. A note that modders in this queue may accept mods from other sources, but it is HIGHLY DISCOURAGED, as it defeats the purpose of this group queue.

The System

Maps placed into this queue will be placed into a list in which it will undergo a 3-Day voting phase. During this phase, the members of the team will quickly check/playtest the set and vote on whether or not the mapset will be accepted for further modding. If the map is accepted by the team, we will send members to mod the map and hopefully bring it to a level of which it can be qualified at. If the set shows it has the quality to be qualified/bubbled, a BN or QAT from the team will be able to check the map and determine for themselves if a set is worthy of a bubble/heart. WE WILL NOT FORCE THE BN'S AND QAT'S ON OUR TEAM TO LOOK AT YOUR MAP. This is done based on their own discretion. They aren't our slaves, we are here to help them out in a time of serious struggle for our community. If a map that we modded previous to qualification (within 1 week) gets disqualified, you may resubmit the map to this queue, and we will instantly accept the map for a re-modding so we can get your map back to ranked.

In order to circulate and revive the CTB modding community, it is necessary for you to do one of the following:
  1. You can mod 2 CTB maps that are NOT listed in the Team Queue and provide proof that this was a high quality mod.
  2. You can mod 1 map that has been rejected by our team and placed into the "special list". (Maps are placed on the special list if we believe the mapset has potential or is very close to becoming a quality mapset).
Please ensure the quality of your mapset to be of the highest, so that way you have a higher chance of your mapset being accepted by us! The higher the quality, the more likely your mapset will be to recieve mods, or even icons from our team! If your mapset does not meet the minimum quality we require to be accepted or to be on the special list, we will reject your mapset with a brief explaination (not a mod) on what we believe you should fix before resubmitting. We're here to help you, not to do all of the work for you.

A tl;dr flowchart stolen from TNA queue - Made by OnosakiHito and visualized by Loctav

Here's what we hope to achieve:


In total, we would like to attempt to unify the CTB community into a place where a mapper can safely ask for mods without waiting months for a reply. This system, while currently untested by our team, will hopefully bring forth new mappers, modders, and potentially even BN's! This system will hopefully encourage others to mod other maps in order to recieve multiple mods on their maps. Remember, you're giving a way a small bit of your time in modding 1-2 maps to receive a great deal more from our team! In the end, we hope to take the weight off of the shoulders of our BN's and QAT's who have been working extremely hard for us, in the absence of others. Now is our turn to give back to everything they've done for us.

Please be reminded that this is NOT the actual queue, just an announcement. The queue can be found here.

Thank you for your time!

- Ascendance
Last edited by Ascendance , edited 20 times in total.
DxNightwave
80 posts
Joined June 2013
DxNightwave
How neat is that
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Ascendance

-itsy_v2- wrote:

How neat is that
so neat
Setomi
153 posts
Joined December 2012
Setomi
Pretty neat/10

Have my sign of approval

JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

Ascendance wrote:

-itsy_v2- wrote:

How neat is that
so neat
https://youtu.be/sMx0Xb5oHUs?list=PLlMs ... fLpJ&t=468

This does look like a nice idea though, but I'd like to see how things develop and who you can get on board before committing to anything. I'd definitely be willing to help out in some capacity providing I can still mod stuff from outside the queue (since I mod Std as well, I'd need to have some arrangement here).

Failing that I could still help out in some advisory capacity or as a neutral third-party, but that can be discussed later.

Best of luck!
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Ascendance

JBHyperion wrote:

Ascendance wrote:

so neat
https://youtu.be/sMx0Xb5oHUs?list=PLlMs ... fLpJ&t=468

This does look like a nice idea though, but I'd like to see how things develop and who you can get on board before committing to anything. I'd definitely be willing to help out in some capacity providing I can still mod stuff from outside the queue (since I mod Std as well, I'd need to have some arrangement here).

Failing that I could still help out in some advisory capacity or as a neutral third-party, but that can be discussed later.

Best of luck!
Yeah, as you mod both Std and CTB, this queue would only apply to CTB, therefore complete freedom for standard <:

Hope you'll be able to commit after we establish more of a solid plan for this team and hopefully we can get the ball rolling with this!
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Ah, nice to see that ctb is doing it now, too. Wish you good luck with it. If you need some help you can contact me, since we are doing this with the TNA since 3 months and encountered / solved some issues already. I can also give you a trello-board if needed for a better and easier organization which you can change as you like to. I made a template for osu!mania, too. Oh, and the flowchart might need an addition for cases which get DQ'd (forgot to add it before).

Talking about flowchart: It's made by me and visualized by Loctav :p
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,528 posts
Joined April 2012
neonat
Really glad you did not take along the part where the BNs must be in the queue, as that is my biggest peeve from the TNA as "participating BNs are not allowed to take requests outside of the shared queue."
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
That's actually the consequence of this neonat, as this should prevent the system to fail within a short time. The Team and its
existence depends of the members. If they take too many requests outside the queue, it can easily happen that they become unintentionally careless and at the end stressed as well (which happened in Taiko at least). Additional to this, the more modders you take the bigger the team becomes, which is dangerous, as people might relay to each other too much which can lead to a failure in organization.

Though, it also depends of the people. Anyway, I wanted to mention this at least as I experienced these things always in previous teams. That's what the system is build on.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
I too was a bit turned off by the "BNs can't take requests from outside the queue" idea when I first read about the TNA announcement, but I do understand why it's necessary.

Perhaps you can run a quota system, where BNs could agree to mod a certain number or percentage of maps from the queue per month, or at the very least "prioritize" mapsets that the team members vote is ready for a BN check? This could work like:
  1. Should mod at least <x> maps per month from the team queue, or
  2. At least <y>% of the mods done that month must be from the team queue, or
  3. Priority should be given to maps deemed "ready" by the team (not sure how this could be reliably and fairly implemented though)
Working out the specifics above all depends on how many people you can get on board and how co-ordinated you can run the team, since more modders working together will push maps towards ranking quicker.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Yeah, that's how TNA works since the beginning. Depending on the number of available members, we decide how many maps are accepted and thus, how many maps must be ranked within a week. Though, this quota isn't absolute either, as the TNA isn't about forcing the members but deciding upon agreement how much could / can be done. And maps priority is decided by votes anyway.

Maybe we should wait for a word from the organizer in ctb.
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,528 posts
Joined April 2012
neonat
Maybe I worded it too strongly, wasn't my intention to seem too negative. Having a team to work on this is nice, having the discipline within it is necessary too for it to work. But what I believe is it shouldn't gather too many, or all the BNs/QATs, I feel that makes it more limiting. Have a balance of those in and out of the team, so there are 'free' (?) people whom those unable to reach plan A (which is get their map into the queue) have something they could go for. That's just how I feel I guess, not to have too large a group handling matters.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
At the moment I think you are absolutely right, neonat. That's one of the reason why for example Raiden and tasuke aren't in the Team yet. I noticed in this way that it is very well balanced having a team but also outstanding people.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Ascendance

OnosakiHito wrote:

Ah, nice to see that ctb is doing it now, too. Wish you good luck with it. If you need some help you can contact me, since we are doing this with the TNA since 3 months and encountered / solved some issues already. I can also give you a trello-board if needed for a better and easier organization which you can change as you like to. I made a template for osu!mania, too. Oh, and the flowchart might need an addition for cases which get DQ'd (forgot to add it before).

Talking about flowchart: It's made by me and visualized by Loctav :p
Hi onosakihito ^^ I'm glad you're willing to help out! I would love the trello board if you are available to do it, it seems like it could help us out a lot, considering we were about to use something like google docs or something.

A question I have quickly, what do you guys do about submitting maps from members of the queue into it? More like, what is the process to make sure nothing is unfair about the staff maps?
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I think as long as a member mods every set in this team, they should be free to do anything else without any % and number restriction. For a fast example, if there is 10 map in the team and I already modded all, I can mod another 20-30 if I want from anyone.

Actually I already planned to do something like this, (I mentioned it somewhere) but never got enough time to work it out. Sadly.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

Kurokami wrote:

I think as long as a member mods every set in this team, they should be free to do anything else without any % and number restriction. For a fast example, if there is 10 map in the team and I already modded all, I can mod another 20-30 if I want from anyone.
TNA opens a new cycle once a week iirc, so if there are 10 sets in the queue each week (as per your example), the base minimum would be to mod all 10 of those, regardless of drain time/difficulty/input required by modders? I honestly don't see that happening, most CtB modders are doing a good job right now if they can put out 10 quality mods a month lol.

Also, how would you factor in people's modding experience/abilities/preferences? Some people only mod up to or below certain difficulties, some only mod marathons/TVSizes, etc.

There needs to be a compromise - yes, if you sign up to this team, I feel it should take some priority. As a mapper, if your map is accepted, it should receive a fair representation of mods from the group members relative to other accepted maps. However, asking all team members to mod everything sounds like an unrealistic goal unless you're hyper-critical on what meets the "accept" criteria.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Ascendance

Kurokami wrote:

I think as long as a member mods every set in this team, they should be free to do anything else without any % and number restriction. For a fast example, if there is 10 map in the team and I already modded all, I can mod another 20-30 if I want from anyone.

Actually I already planned to do something like this, (I mentioned it somewhere) but never got enough time to work it out. Sadly.
The thing is, the reason TNA works so well is because the majority of maps in their final stage of quality must go there. If it's done outside of the queue, doesn't it undermine the purpose of the queue itself? I feel like modding other mapsets that are in their first stages (having received few or no mods) is fine to do outside of the queue, but anything beyond that feels like it defeats the purpose. It's explained well by ono here:

OnosakiHito wrote:

That's actually the consequence of this neonat, as this should prevent the system to fail within a short time. The Team and its
existence depends of the members. If they take too many requests outside the queue, it can easily happen that they become unintentionally careless and at the end stressed as well (which happened in Taiko at least). Additional to this, the more modders you take the bigger the team becomes, which is dangerous, as people might relay to each other too much which can lead to a failure in organization.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito

Ascendance wrote:

SPOILER
Hi onosakihito ^^ I'm glad you're willing to help out! I would love the trello board if you are available to do it, it seems like it could help us out a lot, considering we were about to use something like google docs or something.

A question I have quickly, what do you guys do about submitting maps from members of the queue into it? More like, what is the process to make sure nothing is unfair about the staff maps?
That's something we weren't sure about at the beginning. I thought about special rounds for the members or adding their maps whenever they want, but at the end we decided that TNA members are allowed to queue up like every other user, just with the difference that they don't have to show any mods, as they are checking, modding and ranking maps every week already. So they actually have the same conditions like all other users. They are also not in the real benefit of knowing when the queue opens, since no one knows. Every week another member opens a round when s/he has time, so in most cases it isn't really predictable in what time it opens exactly. Though, it's not even a problem if they do so. It's just important that they don't overtake it. Oh, and maybe I should also add that in the first 2 months we didn't accept a single members map, as we wanted to gain the trust of the community in this matter and see how things go.

I will write you and your members a PM with the needed information and links.

JBHyperion wrote:

SPOILER
TNA opens a new cycle once a week iirc, so if there are 10 sets in the queue each week (as per your example), the base minimum would be to mod all 10 of those, regardless of drain time/difficulty/input required by modders? I honestly don't see that happening, most CtB modders are doing a good job right now if they can put out 10 quality mods a month lol.

Also, how would you factor in people's modding experience/abilities/preferences? Some people only mod up to or below certain difficulties, some only mod marathons/TVSizes, etc.

There needs to be a compromise - yes, if you sign up to this team, I feel it should take some priority. As a mapper, if your map is accepted, it should receive a fair representation of mods from the group members relative to other accepted maps. However, asking all team members to mod everything sounds like an unrealistic goal unless you're hyper-critical on what meets the "accept" criteria.
We had / have the same problem in Taiko. But now with the TNA, I think we are able to generate some more modding in the community and make the modding / ranking process for BNs more efficient and easier due to all the rules the queue has. And about the preferences modders have: That should be no problem with the voting-phase within the team. My team for example votes the beatmaps by quality first, and after that, they split the work to each other by considering what they want to mod.
MBomb
MBomb
I wish all members good luck with this! :D

Edit: It may be worth asking someone to pin this.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
Ascendance

OnosakiHito wrote:

That's something we weren't sure about at the beginning. I thought about special rounds for the members or adding their maps whenever they want, but at the end we decided that TNA members are allowed to queue up like every other user, just with the difference that they don't have to show any mods, as they are checking, modding and ranking maps every week already. So they actually have the same conditions like all other users. They are also not in the real benefit of knowing when the queue opens, since no one knows. Every week another member opens a round when s/he has time, so in most cases it isn't really predictable in what time it opens exactly. Though, it's not even a problem if they do so. It's just important that they don't overtake it. Oh, and maybe I should also add that in the first 2 months we didn't accept a single members map, as we wanted to gain the trust of the community in this matter and see how things go.

I will write you and your members a PM with the needed information and links.
Seems like a good idea, to reject members' maps for some time to show that there is no favoritism in the maps we select. The idea of random times in opening rounds seems good too, for a more fair chance to everyone, rather than people camping at the queue at certain times each week.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

I wish all members good luck with this! :D

Edit: It may be worth asking someone to pin this.
Thanks for the support! I'll ask someone for a pin :)
Equim
335 posts
Joined June 2014
Equim
It seems complex, but count me in. ;_;
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