I do see why hidden shouldnt change via haxwell and therefore think it better not change, but if peppy change mod, then either must adjust or not play.
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[invalid] Hidden sliders
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My biggest gripe with the new Hidden is that it's still the same mod. Not implementing a Hidden2 á la Nightcore gives people who played on previous versions of osu! a rather huge advantage as the mod WAS easier before. You did not need to memorize as much stuff and reading sliders was much much easier.
For me having an option between the two styles is not about preferences, it's about different gameplay mechanics being weighted and thrown together as one, which isn't right in a game that solely focuses on said gameplay. Changes should be adresses as such, and clear distinctions should be made. This is almost as stupid as having pre-2007 and post-2007 spinners in the same leaderboards.
And to fullfill peppy's wishes on how to write a comment in this thread:
It's also really fukin ugly and aesthetically unpleasing combined with the new slider rendering.
For me having an option between the two styles is not about preferences, it's about different gameplay mechanics being weighted and thrown together as one, which isn't right in a game that solely focuses on said gameplay. Changes should be adresses as such, and clear distinctions should be made. This is almost as stupid as having pre-2007 and post-2007 spinners in the same leaderboards.
And to fullfill peppy's wishes on how to write a comment in this thread:
It's also really fukin ugly and aesthetically unpleasing combined with the new slider rendering.
Oh boy am I glad someone made a request for this.
A toggle would be nice. Hidden v2 mod sounds great.
Why are some people against this idea? It doesn't have any negative effect on you if you do like the new hidden.
And I can understand people would prefer the new hidden in case they had problems with reading notes underneath sliders (eventhough this could've been solved by changing your skin), but people also need to understand that this new hidden makes Flashlight + Hidden nearly impossible (especially on long, slow sliders in crazy shapes).
A toggle would be nice. Hidden v2 mod sounds great.
Why are some people against this idea? It doesn't have any negative effect on you if you do like the new hidden.
And I can understand people would prefer the new hidden in case they had problems with reading notes underneath sliders (eventhough this could've been solved by changing your skin), but people also need to understand that this new hidden makes Flashlight + Hidden nearly impossible (especially on long, slow sliders in crazy shapes).
SPOILER
Seriously... think about it... When you start the slider, you have no clue where the end is with Flashlight. No problem on sliders that go straight or in a curve or whatever, but when they are super long and in all sorts of shapes it becomes impossible.
Oh wait
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
Then I can definitely see why people want/need it, and I can agree with it
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
Then I can definitely see why people want/need it, and I can agree with it
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
Trust me, it's not.Baraatje123 wrote:
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory.
But with the new hidden it will be like that, and that is something I (+plenty of other people apparently) do not want.
worst fl player
Oh man this comment was great. HD can also be played by memorization, so does that mean we should remove the multiplier for HD too? lmaoKayla wrote:
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
HD has the option of both reading and memorization, it's significantly easier.
If it was 99.9% memory that would mean that, statistically, the majority of maps don't even have a single note in them that you read.Baraatje123 wrote:
Though I still think Fl (and 4-modding) is like 99.9% memory, thus the sliders are to be remembered as well
I completely agree that this needs to be thought about some more. Soweon pointed out the issue of crazy sliders, and I'd have to agree that is probably the biggest issue right now. Such as this one: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3940847Baraatje123 wrote:
What Soweon said in the spoilerbox, is that the big problem?
You'd be hard pressed to figure out when exactly to change what angle you're moving.
With all due respect, I'm not sure if Peppy is really in the right position to be making these decisions, because he barely even plays osu at all. Then again, he doesn't seem to be concerned with how this change affects FL players at all, so who knows?Baraatje123 wrote:
Anyways, Peppy already replied here, so I think we should just listen to him
Personally, I'd say it would be more visually appropriate for Flashlight players to have the option of maintaining slider visibility with HD as said long sliders lack any sort of feedback. Normal consecutive notes have hitsounds and followpoints to give you at least some direction as to where you're going, but sliders' sliding sounds don't vary based off of how far off-centre you are, and it doesn't have any indication of direction late into the slider with HDFL.
Hmm
To me it seems that way at least
Okay, those -1* maps can be read, but anything higher?
Hell no >___>
To me it seems that way at least
Okay, those -1* maps can be read, but anything higher?
Hell no >___>
Slider bodies now fade out gradually when playing with hidden mod. This allows for better readability (ability to see notes underneath the sliders) while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
what hidden mod actually stands for.
hidden mod
/thread
"- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion)."
This is a great suggestion however
while also feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
feeling more in-line with what hidden mod actually stands for.
what hidden mod actually stands for.
hidden mod
/thread
"- Make this new change to the sliders not apply when you do have the Flashlight mod applied while playing a beatmap. This would mean that the players who like to fight for #1 scores still are able to fight against scores completed using the same conditions and those who aren't using Flashlight can happily use the new changes making it easier to see "Hidden notes" to their advantage (even though I still stand here with the fact that everyone should be achieving their scores using the same conditions, both scores done in the past and scores being done from now on should be done using the same conditions in my opinion)."
This is a great suggestion however
Topic Starter
Alright Peppy,peppy wrote:
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
I'm thankful for your reply to this thread and I'm also thankful for making my life easier defending my #1 scores since I will start to lose less #1 scores after this change will be pushed onto everyone since maps where both hidden and flashlight will become less playable after this change is implemented.
I appreciate your efforts to help me remain the player with most #1 scores in Osu! standard.
Thanks ♥
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
On the toggle-option, why not make it like NC behaves to DT? They're similar features, but because some people like/dislike the pitch change and the nightcore bass you can play either/or with the same outcome. Why not make Hidden HD and this thing FO and let it behave the same way if this absolutely needs to stay.
On the toggle-option, why not make it like NC behaves to DT? They're similar features, but because some people like/dislike the pitch change and the nightcore bass you can play either/or with the same outcome. Why not make Hidden HD and this thing FO and let it behave the same way if this absolutely needs to stay.
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
I'd like to have some input on that same point, too.Yuutai wrote:
I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden"
This is a videogame. When it comes to gameplay elements, such as a mod, shouldn't the focus always be on playability rather than consistency with a name? It doesn't really matter what something is called, rather the meaning it conveys. Hidden conveys a relatively clear meaning, but shouldn't the playability of the mod/combination of mods be more important than being true to the name? I just think we shouldn't restrict the mod to function "as we think the name indicates" and more "what's most fun to play".
It's already been relatively clear that while most people enjoy the changes to hidden on its own, many disagree when it's paired with FL. As such, should there not be an option to use the "old" hidden, at least when you're playing Flashlight, so that people can continue to enjoy both the Hidden and Flashlight mods to their full extents?
I agree with that, but this topic is about combination Flashlight + Hidden, which is a different beast entirely.Dreamcast wrote:
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
I'm not a 4mod player or anything, but if it's THAT easy, why don't you do some scores? Ah ok that's what I thought.Kayla wrote:
FL should have no multiplier because FL turns osu! into a memory game.
If ar 9 + DT was changed to ar 11 that would be completely ludicrous because it would mean before the change people have recieved scores which were dramatically easier. It was gimped. The HD change makes readability easier.
Nobody cares about 4 mods in normals and easys. Playing 4 mod and outspinning people to get top score on a disgustingly easy map is ludicrous and making it harder should not be a problem.
Play songs in your skill range and get better instead of adding mods and farming score in a difficulty bracket meant for new players?
Also, I find pretty funny that you talk about skill and that their scores are shit when you probably have no readability or consistency at all.
Which is very subjective because other people, with HD only, HR or FL claim that its either harder to read or irritating. Are their opinions not valid? I disagree with peppy shunning us to restrict a discussion with such a hard change to the visual aspect only, not the playabilitly, but what I agree with is that "easier" or "harder" is, unless you can hold a respectable poll, useless information because its just an opinion with no argumentation whatsoever.Dreamcast wrote:
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
This thread
worst fl player
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.Miyazono wrote:
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
Totally agreed. The hew hidden is amazing to play with the mods that people really give a shit about, but when it comes to FL it gets really bad.L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.Miyazono wrote:
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
You can't even see where it ends if you have HD and FL...
the mere fact that peppy is breaking osu! into pieces, changing and putting it together after 8 years is a joke in itself
You might as well say that he discontinued osu! and started another game
You might as well say that he discontinued osu! and started another game
Well, I was just talking how I felt changes myself (the whole "Imho" part).Yuutai wrote:
Which is very subjective because other people, with HD only, HR or FL claim that its either harder to read or irritating. Are their opinions not valid? I disagree with peppy shunning us to restrict a discussion with such a hard change to the visual aspect only, not the playabilitly, but what I agree with is that "easier" or "harder" is, unless you can hold a respectable poll, useless information because its just an opinion with no argumentation whatsoever.Dreamcast wrote:
Imho, changes made hidden easier to sightread if you're willing to adapt.
It was not "easy" at first, it became "easier" as I adapted to them. It changed the way I saw HD for good. I mean HD only, right?
I respect all kind of opinions and thoughts but my point is not here, as it seems you can't respect mine, anyway.
Somehow it looks like players don't seem to consider they will eventually adapt to these changes (by playing and being pacient, when using HD/HDHR).
Yet I didn't consider the real point of this thread: pairing it with Flashlight.
Maybe there are changes coming to FL too?
I just took a look at mania,Yuutai wrote:
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
Fade IN = notes start hidden then appear so you can still judge when to hit them, then you click it once more and it becomes "Hidden" not this fade out that you are talking about.
Hover over the text for hidden in mania and it says "the notes fade out before you hit them".
Hover over the text for hidden in standard and it says "play with no approach circles and fading notes for a slight score advantage"
If I look at a circle with hidden mod active... If that circle "disappears" with me looking at it or not, sure it has faded out but its also hidden from view. Looking away does not make any difference to the meaning of the word hidden and that once the circle fades out, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from sight
Yuutai wrote:
feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect.
I think you are logically incorrect.
worst fl player
Yes but you dont get extra score for completing with mods.......012555 wrote:
I just took a look at mania,Yuutai wrote:
Just my two cents as a low rank scrub, I think one part that goes overlooked here is that the original argumentation for the change was that it "feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect. The way it is now is similar to osu!mainas "Fade-Out", which is FADE-Out instead of HIDDEN because that is exactly what it is. It is like you were comparing it with hide and seek: If you're there in one moment and then gone when I look away shortly, you HID yourself. You're now HIDDEN. Instead, if you're just casually walking out of my line of sight, you went away, you faded yourself out.
Fade IN = notes start hidden then appear so you can still judge when to hit them, then you click it once more and it becomes "Hidden" not this fade out that you are talking about.
Hover over the text for hidden in mania and it says "the notes fade out before you hit them".
Hover over the text for hidden in standard and it says "play with no approach circles and fading notes for a slight score advantage"
If I look at a circle with hidden mod active... If that circle "disappears" with me looking at it or not, sure it has faded out but its also hidden from view. Looking away does not make any difference to the meaning of the word hidden and that once the circle fades out, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from sightYuutai wrote:
feels more in line with the name hidden" which is in my honest opinion just logically incorrect.
I think you are logically incorrect.
https://gyazo.com/158e4b3dc781b8c34033990685a180d5
Have you considered just making it a skin option since such things as "visually more appropriate", "cool" and "ugly" are, of course, subjective?peppy wrote:
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
if this happens, why not another mod for hidden?
Sudden Death -> Perfect
Double Time -> Nightcore
Hidden -> Fade Out (with a better score multiplier of 1.07x)
Sudden Death -> Perfect
Double Time -> Nightcore
Hidden -> Fade Out (with a better score multiplier of 1.07x)
L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:
Do you know what else if really funny. We are complaining about FL and HD, not HD.Miyazono wrote:
You know what is a bigger joke than thinking that the new HD is bad?
This thread
Most of the Flashlight community (all modders) are most likely gonna die if this new hidden what came out of nowhere gets properly added. You cant really say that were complaining about nothing when you haven't tried it yourself.
Sorry, I only play real maps with real mods
peppy wrote:
Prepare yourselves for more changes. I am not interested in maintaining status quo just to keep people happy. Going forward we will be making more changes to mods and gameplay in general!
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
If we had the sliderball "erase" the slider as it went, would this achieve what you want functionally and aesthetically? I still don't quite understand the reason behind the new sliders, myB
Yahweh, that suggestion is one I agree with
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
Yeah I agree that we should accept new "features" but changing the gameplay itself is more of a development sided kind of changeBaraatje123 wrote:
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
I can live with the new score system, I can live with osu! going full OpenGL
but tell me of all things why would you change how the mods behave now?
was there any kind of motive other than pp?
more benefits than cons tbh, i only see like 5 fl players complaining and if more people cared then they would show more support...
Baraatje123 wrote:
Yahweh, that suggestion is one I agree with
Not the other ones though
Peppy changed it, so just accept it
Everytime, when a new feature comes in, people disagree with it, cause they aren't used to it / something else
I for example also kinda hate the nee builds (Stable/Beta/CE) as opposed to fallback as those 3 all lag heavily in the editor
But will I make a new thread about the fact that it sucks, as it makes modding/mapping harder, to nigh impossible? No
Just deal with it, Peppy said more changes will come, so just accept it and adapt to it
My last 2 cents on this, and I'll stop posting in this thread
Unless Peppy wants me to, so he gets more support :3
I certainly hope you don't honestly feel that way, and I really hope Peppy doesn't. When something happens and it has genuine flaws (and I'm speaking about change in general not just this,) a large group of people find it detrimental, or it is just ugly then people can and should voice opinions, and they should at the very least be considered. I don't believe you actually live by that "the authority made a change theres nothing we can do surrender and lie down" attitude. Implying that people shouldn't make threads about legitimate greavances is ridiculous.
Also IDC about the new sliders very much, I don't play flashlight so it doesn't bother me when they disappear, but I do think it's ugly the way it's implimented and I think it could be done betta.
Maybe I'm not that much into HDFL compared to FL but I had my fun with it for a while and I don't see my performance on the map I practiced with it(3.5*, ~700 combo) being heavily affected.
I agree that it is affected but I don't feel like the difference is that huge as you can still see where the sliders start/end due to the fade being so slow and followpoints at start and end(if there aren't any you have to memorize anyway, right?)
I'm already glad that peppy gave me the sliderends on appearance back~
On the other hand the new HD eases reading EZHD(in my opinion at least) and I still can't see a riot of EZHD-players that have their scores beaten - sure, not the mod combination you farm #1 with but it's still something you take pride in due to its difficulty.
Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
I agree that it is affected but I don't feel like the difference is that huge as you can still see where the sliders start/end due to the fade being so slow and followpoints at start and end(if there aren't any you have to memorize anyway, right?)
I'm already glad that peppy gave me the sliderends on appearance back~
On the other hand the new HD eases reading EZHD(in my opinion at least) and I still can't see a riot of EZHD-players that have their scores beaten - sure, not the mod combination you farm #1 with but it's still something you take pride in due to its difficulty.
Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
That would mean that the mod isn't consistent throughout other mods, which could confuse new playersEndaris wrote:
Giving FL the power to override the new fade-setting of HD is the only somewhat reasonable suggestion you made in my opinion as I feel like the new HD is a good thing for osu! outside of FL which makes the skinnable/HDv2/toggle nonsense.
also toggles aren't valid requests
It's the most logical and fitting way to do this. 'Fading Sliders' toggleSulker wrote:
iirc didn't ppy said he was planning to make this toggle relate to the Snaking Sliders effect? I dunno
This change is not about visuals, it's about playability for HDFL players
I also agree that it became a lot harder ([Hard]-s FL player here)
blahpy wrote:
Have you considered just making it a skin option since such things as "visually more appropriate", "cool" and "ugly" are, of course, subjective?peppy wrote:
p.s. if you're going to continue this conversation, then please don't use the words "harder", "easier" or "difficulty". Instead use the words "visually more appropriate", "cool" or "ugly".
I personally like how hidden is now, it looks nicer and doesn't negatively impact my game play. But there should be an option to play with the original HD style.
Any maps which is slider heavy and it is reasonably fast was made significantly harder to read.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.
Make it toggle-able pls.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.
Make it toggle-able pls.
Here we go again >>__>>
THERE WAS THOUSANDS OF POSTS ABOUT IT THEY SAY NO.xasuma wrote:
Any maps which is slider heavy and it is reasonably fast was made significantly harder to read.
And it is overall more annoying to use hd now. I am not a fan.
Make it toggle-able pls.
did that make you clear ?