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posted
So someone linked me to this thread and I don't normally ever go on here but I'm gonna put my two cents in here, as a long-time Stepmania chart-artist.

A lot of the biggest problems Stepmania (or just the rhythm gaming community in general) sees in Osu! is that it's trying to create a monopoly of rhythm gaming simulators. It's trying to be every rhythm game ever, which demotivates any other person to create or expand on other simulators that features a lot more only because everyone plays on the "popular game". For example, how many of you guys know about Taiko Sanjirou or other Taiko simulators? I bet you guys haven't, which is a huge shame considering how good and close it is to the original games.

Another thing is the standard for charting this game has. From a lot of videos I've seen on charts (and ranked songs), all I can see for standards is just...a song, chart, and put a MAYBE relevant background image taken from somewhere without credit. Now, compare that to Stepmania's standard. We cut songs down to about 2 minutes similar to arcade lengths, stylize our graphics, and actually DO have a standard with charting, especially with the types of players that exists (pad players: requiring very specific patterning for players to be able to play them on your feet, and a multitude of keyboard players with MANY types of styles so charting standards vary different for each playstyle). Basically, we push ourselves to actually make our works look a bit professional at least.

Not only that, but the current Stepmania (Stepmania 5) has A LOT of features now, and a VERY FLEXIBLE engine to create themes with. You can compare something like the ITG3 theme for Stepmania, and then look at the DDR2013 theme that is possible because of the flexibility. It's not just simple reskins, these are huge projects done that look completely different from each other.

I think the best thing to do is to look at an example of a chart that is possible to do in the game now. Look at this chart that was made very recently. It's Undertale, so it will likely grab your interest:


Now I've never seen anyone make a chart like that in Osu ever. However, there is one chart that I really liked and I'll show you what it is and explain why. It is Don't Stop Me Now:


Why do I like this? Simply put, there was a lot of effort put into it and it looked very much like an EBA/Ouendan map. It is very professional looking, and on a song that I like, unlike the vast amounts of Nightcore garbage that exists out there with maps for god knows why. Admittedly, this is what got me to try out Osu! for a bit until I dropped it and uninstalled it a couple days later for reasons I'll state soon. But this is the kind of effort I want to see. This is the kind of standard I would appreciate, and would change my opinion on the game a little bit more. However, there are other issues which I'll state now.

Osu! has a combo-based scoring system. That is a HUGE no-no in the rhythm gaming community. Just because someone had a higher combo shouldn't judge a score if he missed a few at the very end or beginning compared to someone who missed ONCE or TWICE in the middle. That is unfair and very unhealthy, only better than card-collection based scoring (*cough cough Love Live cough*). Another thing is that the game allows for A LOT of artificial difficulty. IIRC, I heard you can set the life judgement in a map. That isn't good because it causes a lot of imbalances in mapping standards. A song can be hard not because of the map note-density or patterning, but because the health is too harsh so it could be easy to play but more unforgiving on the misses. That is a no-no.

The last is the community...not much to say here. I'll just put in some examples (community reaction to Konami's rightful takedown notice on their songs in this game, the one user trying to pass off FFR charts as his own and the community supporting him, etc).

Anyways, I'm just putting why I don't like this game at all and why I feel the rhythm gaming community has a VERY negative view on this game, and unfortunately I don't think it can be salvaged at this point so the negative stigma will remain for it's lifetime. Sorry man, but that's the sad truth. Now I'll be off, I forgot that I actually had an account here so I could try osu! way back in the day before uninstalling it a day after because of the terrible charting standard as well as not having a mouse at the time.
posted
People waste their time just to shit on other communities and their platform? That's actually quite sad.

Whether what people says it won't make any difference related to the gameplay or the community of the game; it's rather recommend to re-learn to enjoy the game you're playing, no matter what are the issues in the game. Bothering too much ruins stuff anyways.
posted
tbh osu mania could have been a great game but the butchered gameplay and charts with questionable quality made it less attractive

nontheless i enjoy playing casually so not much to shit about it
posted
Nah. Mania is still growing. And why did people comparing each games?, yes, song in stepmania has better pattern. But some won't be ranked in mania due to ghost note / inconsistency. Most of BN in mania asks for consistency as an integral part of your map. And about combo-based, it's not really weird, 2 players who get the same amount of 300g,300, and miss, but one had miss at mid and the other get it at the end part, means that the second player has better concentration. And replay never hurt anyone.
About standard mode's life judgement, yeah i have seen the issue, but in mania, it's not really an issue. Usually harder difficulty has higher od and hp, and if you can finish it, hp shouldn't be a problem. The problem is with od, but in the end low od won't help you finish hard song that you never get the pattern before.
About monopolizing, it's not really an issue since you can still play the other game, and it's not a problem if a game has several modes. It's one good part about osu!that it was not stuck at an idea. Don't talk bad if you are the one who can't accept any change in the world. Konami's takedown ? well, the song is licensed, but even some song also mapped in stepmania. That's why peppy asks us to map the song that has CC license, so you won't be scared from taking down. #osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania. Just because the system is different from your previous games, doesn't mean you can easily talk bad about it. Relying heavily on LN ? then what ?. Just play it.
And osu! community is still way better than , like, DOTA2, LoL, and many others.
posted
wtf is that post.

Wind_14 wrote:

Nah. Mania is still growing. And why did people comparing each games?, yes, song in stepmania has better pattern. But some won't be ranked in mania due to ghost note / inconsistency. Most of BN in mania asks for consistency as an integral part of your map.
There are good and bad charts in Stepmania as well. Don't use Yolomania and Nuclear Blast as representatives of what SM charting is, because it really isn't. Charts like Schur's Theorem, Quatre Mains and Run Run Run are examples of better SM charts. They are consistent as far I'm concerned, not to mention consistency isn't even that difficult of a rule to follow. Most inconsistencies are accidental, I'd imagine this being the same for o!m as well.

And about combo-based, it's not really weird, 2 players who get the same amount of 300g,300, and miss, but one had miss at mid and the other get it at the end part, means that the second player has better concentration. And replay never hurt anyone.
So both players lapse their concentration in different areas, yet the second player has better focus...? That doesn't even make sense. The location of the miss should be irrelevant as long as they're playing the same chart; in fact you can argue that the person who misses in the harder section is worse than the person in the one who misses in a random section. That's another topic altogether anyway.

About standard mode's life judgement, yeah i have seen the issue, but in mania, it's not really an issue. Usually harder difficulty has higher od and hp, and if you can finish it, hp shouldn't be a problem. The problem is with od, but in the end low od won't help you finish hard song that you never get the pattern before.
The problem is that people are saying that HP is too lenient, which is true. You literally cannot fail anything in this game unless it is way way too hard for you - and in multiple rhythm games passing is quite the achievement. Honestly the argument about HP and OD can be another thing altogether, but basically the game makes mashing completely viable because the early miss function fails at what it does (getting misses) and you can quadmash through anything even on HP8.5-9 and still pass. The fact that you can jumptrill all of AiAe and still pass says a lot about the gameplay in this game. Given, you'll get horrible accuracy - but the fact that you can actually get PP through jumptrilling a chart that is not a jumptrill chart is pretty silly.

But o!m is a different game from say, BMS. So you can argue that going for S-ranks might be more important than passing and blah blah ahqwjeo

About monopolizing, it's not really an issue since you can still play the other game, and it's not a problem if a game has several modes. It's one good part about osu!that it was not stuck at an idea. Don't talk bad if you are the one who can't accept any change in the world. Konami's takedown ? well, the song is licensed, but even some song also mapped in stepmania. That's why peppy asks us to map the song that has CC license, so you won't be scared from taking down.
I do agree that the people bashing osu!mania are definitely irrational about it, they can be dissatisfied with how osu!mania is more popular and other things but openly disliking it is a bit dumb. I do think osu!mania has a good amount of potential, but it requires quite the overhaul in terms of gameplay mechanics and a lot more time for charting quality to improve drastically.

People aren't disliking the game because it's different, people dislike the game because it is inferior. The main thing osu!mania has compared to other rhythm games is its exquisite interface (IRCs and other things), which comes with osu in general.

#osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania.
Completely pointless part of your argument, even the medium-range charts are not very good in my opinion.

Just because the system is different from your previous games, doesn't mean you can easily talk bad about it. Relying heavily on LN ? then what ?. Just play it.
People dislike the game because the general map quality is lower than the ones in StepMania and maybe some other rhythm games. The patterns are generally far more appropriate and playable (very little arbitrary one hand trill patterning, very pitch relevant note placements, extremely smooth patterning as a whole, better song choices which create for better charts and overall just more musically relevant charting). Relying heavily on LNs are not much of a problem if the gimmick works. The gimmick generally doesn't work for 4K by nature because of how restrictive 4K charting is already. Having a long note in 4 columns gives you only 3 columns to work with and you can only work with 1 finger on one hand and 2 fingers on the other. That is insanely restrictive, hence why people dislike the LN gimmick. It is not because it is different, it is because it does not work well with the given medium you have.
posted

Shoegazer wrote:

#osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania.
Completely pointless part of your argument, even the medium-range charts are not very good in my opinion.
if i'm not wrong someone says that he/she is laughing when he opens #osu, well, what you should do there actually ? and some people said that "osumania isn't hard enough ". We are still improving. I'll try the pack you suggested.
I'm sure peppy use combo-based because he want osumania as a different yet identical mode from standard, thus most gameplay in mania should be identic to the standard. And it's harder to keep the combo from standard mode, from several days of trying standard. About hp, should we give 10 to all maps ?about od, if it's true that it's still easy enough, so should we increase all of them to 10 ? after all, it's the BN and QAT who thinks that the hp and od right now is enough.
posted
well osu standard doesnt have a 1000k max score system and adding an arbitrary score system that doesnt accurately represent your 'skill' just for the sake of consistensy does not make it a good game design.
Also the hp problem is not much on the hp drain/hp recovery but the on fact that the game barely punishes mindless mashing (ie. poor in lr2/iidx) thus making a clear less rewarding and hindering a player's chance to improve on their skills
posted

Shoegazer wrote:

And about combo-based, it's not really weird, 2 players who get the same amount of 300g,300, and miss, but one had miss at mid and the other get it at the end part, means that the second player has better concentration. And replay never hurt anyone.
So both players lapse their concentration in different areas, yet the second player has better focus...? That doesn't even make sense. The location of the miss should be irrelevant as long as they're playing the same chart; in fact you can argue that the person who misses in the harder section is worse than the person in the one who misses in a random section. That's another topic altogether anyway.
Just wanna point out that osumania scoring is NOT combo based, osu is. They are different. In fact even though o!m is kinda crude and imperfect in other aspects, its scoring system is one of the best and the most balanced I've ever seen. It combines the evaluation of accuracy, combo, and consistency, especially compared to the scoring system of o2jam(mostly combo based) and LR2(completely acc-based). (Never played stepmania much so idk)

Shoegazer wrote:

Relying heavily on LNs are not much of a problem if the gimmick works. The gimmick generally doesn't work for 4K by nature because of how restrictive 4K charting is already. Having a long note in 4 columns gives you only 3 columns to work with and you can only work with 1 finger on one hand and 2 fingers on the other. That is insanely restrictive, hence why people dislike the LN gimmick. It is not because it is different, it is because it does not work well with the given medium you have.
You've been taking it too far. The "LNs doesn't work for 4k" argument is a little bit too assertive. Maybe that's true for Stepmania, but 4k is NOT Stepmania! You probably don't know that there's a 4k community in China that plays a game called "Myo2", which, as you can tell by its name, is basically the 4k version of o2jam, with LN heavy mapping style and lenient accuracy. They have plenty of beautifully charted LN maps(and non LN maps as well), which is fun, challenging, and musically relevant.

I just wanna say that Stepmania mapping is a STYLE not a STANDARD. My personal opinion is that not using LNs will significantly reduce the diversity of patterns. And moreover in some cases you just can't be musically relevant if you don't use LNs in order to fit the layering of the song.

But still, I like stepmania maps, they are fun to play. I just don't quite agree with the general attitude of some of the players toward LNs.
posted

[Crz]Kemo wrote:

Just wanna point out that osumania scoring is NOT combo based, osu is. They are different. In fact even though o!m is kinda crude and imperfect in other aspects, its scoring system is one of the best and the most balanced I've ever seen. It combines the evaluation of accuracy, combo, and consistency, especially compared to the scoring system of o2jam(mostly combo based) and LR2(completely acc-based). (Never played stepmania much so idk)
I was mainly directing that part of the quote to that argument about how missing at different locations won't make that much of a difference overall. I'm aware of how the osu!mania scoring system works. It's a good system for what it is, but I strongly dislike how misses penalise so much (funnily enough the percentage system has the opposite issue, misses penalise too little) and 200s penalise too little. Because of that I've always used percentage as a better measure of score. Is a subjective argument though, both systems have its flaws. I think the percentage system in o!m is better than any other scoring system at the moment for what it's worth, the SM DP% system outclasses the scoring system (not percentage) in osu!mania for me.


You've been taking it too far. The "LNs doesn't work for 4k" argument is a little bit too assertive. Maybe that's true for Stepmania, but 4k is NOT Stepmania! You probably don't know that there's a 4k community in China that plays a game called "Myo2", which, as you can tell by its name, is basically the 4k version of o2jam, with LN heavy mapping style and lenient accuracy. They have plenty of beautifully charted LN maps(and non LN maps as well), which is fun, challenging, and musically relevant.
My phrasing probably came off the wrong way because I overemphasised some parts, but the reason I have this jaded impression of LNs in 4K is mainly because how fundamentally restrictive it is. I agree that there are some nice LN charts out there, but they seem like a rarity to me and generally speaking I prefer them not being used because of how easily it could be messed up. Any given style of charting can create very good charts if done properly yes, but I just haven't seen enough charts that use LNs as their gimmick (for the lack of a better term) to really convince me that LN charting is an extremely viable charting style, rather than just novelty.

Again, not denying that LN charting is bad - I just don't see how well you can really use LNs a good amount of times and make it fluid and enjoyable to play through. I can think of some examples for sure, but there are generally better (subjective but still) options.


I just wanna say that Stepmania mapping is a STYLE not a STANDARD. My personal opinion is that not using LNs will significantly reduce the diversity of patterns. And moreover in some cases you just can't be musically relevant if you don't use LNs in order to fit the layering of the song.
You're right, Stepmania mapping isn't a standard - it is a style. I never disagreed with that. There are times where LNs are appropriate (and I could name off a ton of charts that benefitted from LNs), but I feel that LNs should be sparsely used because of how restrictive your finger motions are in general instead of being a full blown charting style. Again, this is because I've never seen LNs being used in a very intricate/fluent way - I would like to be proven wrong.
posted

Shoegazer wrote:

I was mainly directing that part of the quote to that argument about how missing at different locations won't make that much of a difference overall. I'm aware of how the osu!mania scoring system works. It's a good system for what it is, but I strongly dislike how misses penalise so much (funnily enough the percentage system has the opposite issue, misses penalise too little) and 200s penalise too little. Because of that I've always used percentage as a better measure of score. Is a subjective argument though, both systems have its flaws. I think the percentage system in o!m is better than any other scoring system at the moment for what it's worth, the SM DP% system outclasses the scoring system (not percentage) in osu!mania for me.
What about making a new score system that doesn't rely on combo? If the score doesn't rely on combo, then it can be calculated entirely by the distribution of the judgments in a play (so a score wipe wouldn't be needed if it was implemented).

Instead of assigning each judgment value for each hit an arbitrary value (for example: a 300g a base value of 320, a 300 a 300, etc...), look at the timing windows of each judgment, so one can give a score based on the estimation of accuracy based on the distribution of the judgments in the play.

Because of the central limit theorem, the distribution of the hit errors would be close a Normal Distribution (experimentally, it seems like the real distributions tend to have heavier tails than a Normal Distribution, the amount of misses players tend to have is higher than predicted; this is not really an issue for the purposes here, though). The mean of the distribution would be ~0 ms (since players adjust their offset to correct for the average error), so the standard deviation (Unstable Rate in game terms) alone can be used to describe how accurate a player is (the lower the standard deviation, the more accurate a player is).

With that, it's possible to perform a maximum-likelihood estimation based on the distribution of the judgments obtained to calculate the standard deviation.
Note: it's possible to perform a maximum-likelihood estimation without assuming the mean is 0ms, and use the RMS of the error instead of just the standard deviation, but this makes calculation the considerably harder and expensive to calculate (and I don't think this would be really needed here).

A MISS would be considered as if the player hit the note, but the timing was so off it was outside the time window of a 50 (the system can't tell the difference between being extremely off in the timing, or not hitting a note at all; the penalty for a MISS is considerable in the case assumed)

With that, we have a measure of accuracy (Standard Deviation/Unstable Rate that makes the distribution of scores the most likely), now we can scale the result arbitrarily without affecting the balance of the results.

A possible scaling would be one that is based on the "Base Score" of the current mania scoring sytem:
1000000 * (320*Probability_of_300g + 300*Probability_of_300 + ... ) / (320 * Amount_of_Judgments)

Here the probabilities of the scaling always assume OD10 (it could use any other OD), fixing a OD instead of using the one of the play has the advantage of enabling comparing different scores in the same map if the ODs are different (it would enable to comparing EZ/HR and No-Mod scores directly, except for cases of very high accuracy, for reasons explained below). If the OD of a map is 10, and a play has a close to perfect Normal Distribution of hit errors, then this scale gives about the same values as the "Base Score" of the current scoring system (multiplied by two, since Base Score ranges from 0 to 500000).

Another possible scaling is using one based on the "Ex-score" of IIDX/LR2, the advantage of this scale is that the difference between high-accuracy scores is higher (For example, with the osu!mania scaling, 990000 is pretty close to 998000, even though the later score is much better). (Note: since the formula here is just a scaling, it doesn't have the same weakness as the LR2 formula, where misses barely matter at all, and there is no difference between a miss or other bad accuracy judgment).

The formula for the LR2-Based scale would be:
1000000 * (2*Probability_of_300g + Probability_of_300) / (2 * Amount_of_Judgments)

The difference between the "Base Scaling" and "LR2-Based Scale" here doesn't really affect things much, the only moment where it matters which scale to use would be in team multiplayer matches, where the score of the players are added together.

Note that the previous calculation is similar to the "Expected Unstable Rate" I made some years ago, but with some important differences:
  1. The Expected Unstable Rate estimated the standard deviation based on the Base Score of a play (which uses the arbitrary values of 320, 300, 200, etc... and the values of those judgments actually affect the balance of the results), while this uses the distribution of the judgments. Both calculations tend to give similar results, but when the distribution of judgments of a play is farther from a perfect Normal Distribution, the calculation here gives more accurate results (this is specially important with misses or very bad accuracy judgments, the Base Score is very insensitive to the amount of those judgments).
  2. The Expected Unstable Rate was based on the median (or other percentiles) of the Binomial Distribution associated with the amount of 300g judgments obtained. The median is more robust to results that are just a fluke (For example, if a play consists of only 200 300g judgments, the unstable rate that makes this the most likely is 0, which makes it 100% likely; but, even with a higher unstable rate, such as 50, the chances of getting 200 300g in a row are more than 50%, so it is very likely the real Unstable Rate of a play was higher than 0). The difference in the results obtained because of this is only noticeable with very high accuracies (or very low amount of objects, less than 50). For the purposes here, taking this into account is not really needed, and it would make the calculation formula more complex (when calculating pp, this is very important, though; also it would be important when mixing plays with different mods in the same leaderboard). Accounting for this in the formula is possible, but would make the calculation take a bit longer.


This makes the distinction between a "Score" and a "Accuracy Percentage" of a play superfluous, the play that gets the best score is the one that has the best accuracy (and I think that the score calculated here reflects accuracy better than the current "Accuracy Percentage" formula).

Examples of results using the formula proposed:

(300g, 300, 200, 100, 50, MISS). All results use the "LR2-based scale", and OD8 for the plays considered.
(495, 5, 0, 0, 0, 0) -> 995000
(499, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0) -> 994563 (Note: when using OD 10, the score with 1 200 is actually better than the score with 5 300s)
(499, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0) -> 983084
(499, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0) -> 968606
(499, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1) -> 954903

Applied to leaderboards (Empress, and Anemone):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbz4ra1tqeb0r ... .xlsx?dl=0

The main issue would be implementation and performance, the code I wrote in Mathematica takes up to ~100ms (about 32ms average) on my laptop to calculate a single score, and uses calculations with 70 decimal digits of precision (double-precision floating-point numbers aren't accurate enough to perform the numerical minimization of the likelihood function); Mathematica supports only either double-precision or arbitrary precision calculations, implementing the same code with other number formats (such as binary256) could make things faster. Taking that amount of time to calculate the value might not allow the score to be shown in real time during play (only at the results screen), and calculating the values for the current ranked scores would take a while.
posted
Speaking of proposals: I'd like to ask everybody to chart their maps in editors for other games and provide the files with their map, because .osu files suck.

Osu files are timed to the millisecond(not some fraction of millisecond, just whole millisecond), as opposed to proper measure timing like the music it's charted to, or every big rhythm game ever that isn't osu. This means that unless you're lucky and fit the tiny amount of BPM's and measures that have round values in milliseconds, your stuff will be mistimed. And since this isn't going away because it's most likely an engine limitation, which would break all existing maps if fixed, we should all chart our stuff in other editors and use the built-in converters. I'm suggesting iBMSC and/or Stepmania's built-in editor, because there's plenty of games that take them, and because there's converters for them as well(the BMS one is built into the osu editor). Before you say "using other game's editor is ridiculous", check how O2Jam charts are made.

If you don't believe me, open any .osu file for any game mode(they all share this flaw) in notepad or something like that and/or look at the wiki(inb4 they remove or change it).

And yes, you can put other files in the folder and still have Bancho take them, val0108 had a map with a zip of his skin in it.
posted
Couldn't you have just posted this in the general discussion? This thread is absolute garbage and there's no need for this to be open any longer.
posted

Valedict wrote:

Couldn't you have just posted this in the general discussion? This thread is absolute garbage and there's no need for this to be open any longer.
100% true, we can move this to the general discussion thread now, I am closing this !
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