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[added] Make osu!mania 10k rankable.

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,525
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Cra Dow

Cawub wrote:

I really think this is a good idea. There seems to be a lot of people that agree as well. There doesn't seem to be any reason that 10k isn't rankable. To even map 10k you have to put 5k co-op. There is no 10k option when mapping. The scale only goes from 1-9k which doesn't make sense to me. There are dedicated 10k players and people who map 10k. There isn't any explanation as well as to why 10k is currently unrankable.
The only thing they need to do is to change names here and there, take out the splitstage from the current 10K skin and define a default layout.
Humans have 10 fingers on their hands on total so there is no anatomic impossibility. Anyways I think 10K would get more popular than 9K is, normally when I show players in multi how to set 10K they get hyped. So I totally agree. And most mappers that I know are all about to make 10K ranked. Thou I think the more the lanes the more complex the mapping gets. Experienced mappers like challenges from what I know.
I am not very expereienced with mapping thou when I get to be able to S 4* intensity level maps I have plans to map some 10K. Thanks from CircusGalop's maps, some other mapers I am able to get more experienced with 10K patterning. Ez2Dj/Ez2Ac 10K and BMS 10K vídeos (since ez2dj does not exist outside Korea) are also great learning material. 10K2S BMS maps can be found for playing purposes thou they are a litle complex on the standard pc keyboard, thou the static side plays pretty naturally even if you bind something like qwerbniop+ (I have portuguese-Portugal qwerty keyboard I change + and - offset keybinding to * and / respectively), thou you need to have a nice key rollover support, anyways since 9K needs that too why not 10K too? Using thumbs on bn is not a big deal since you only have to add an extra thumb and its about the feeling that the keys give you, with some days of practice anyone can get used to it, thou mastering takes years like any keycount. If your hands are symetrically positioned and comfortable you are good to go.
Topic Starter
CircusGalop
There was good news. 10key maps can be reached loved state now. https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/549835
It needs to have a Star Priority of 100 and 30 favorites by other users.
I will try to earn kudosus and to make a 10k loved map afterward.
Cra Dow
Great 8-)
Topic Starter
CircusGalop

CircusGalop wrote:

There was good news. 10key maps can be reached loved state now. https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/549835
It needs to have a Star Priority of 100 and 30 favorites by other users.
I will try to earn kudosus and to make a 10k loved map afterward.
Eventually there was no chance. Currently, there is no way to play a 10k map with online record or add it.
Cra Dow
>:( :( :x :cry:
abraker
Maybe in 2 years...
Topic Starter
CircusGalop
The number of 10K mapsets is more than 100.
The number of 10K mappers is more than 30.
The number of users who have registered a score on a 10K loved scoreboard has been more than 200 since 6 weeks ago.

It's time to make 10k rankable.
abraker
Well now that we have 10k loved, there should not be a reason not to rank 10k. There should be nothing to prevent it from a technical perspective. I think you should start poking around here and get the ranking criteria adjusted.
Cra Dow
I should start mapping again because I feel like I am falling behind...
If I may suggest some layouts, that I like using for you to include on the list (left hand=rose, right hand=blue):
Universal:

For more finger oriented:

This is good for big hands or more wrist oriented for middle sized hands (it might not be compatible with all keyboards):
Topic Starter
CircusGalop
I found that there isn't 10K config in osu!lazer(2017.12.31) unlike 9K. :(
please. I wish for 10K not to be classified as 5K Co-op. The default key settings discussed here would be fine. Of course, the most important thing is rankable.
abraker

CircusGalop wrote:

I found that there isn't 10K config in osu!lazer(2017.12.31) unlike 9K.
owh


@Cra Dow
rose: left ctrl, a, s, d, spacebar
blue: left arrow, numpad 7, numpad 8, numpad 9, numpad enter
Cra Dow
I am to used to not curving my pinkies like that, Abraker.

CircusGalop wrote:

I found that there isn't 10K config in osu!lazer(2017.12.31) unlike 9K. :(
please. I wish for 10K not to be classified as 5K Co-op. The default key settings discussed here would be fine. Of course, the most important thing is rankable.
I saw this months ago and asked peppy about it [I hope that includes fixing all discrepancies]:


I guess they didn't fix the layout options yet.
abraker
just found an old request of mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/318346
Cra Dow

abraker wrote:

just found an old request of mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/318346

I think requests should be made in github now, in issues? Not sure how github works since I can't code... But if someone makes a request it might be useful to link the threads related to 10k as single player mode (not dp or 5k+5k or coop, deceiving the players).
abraker

Cra Dow wrote:

abraker wrote:

just found an old request of mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/318346

I think requests should be made in github now, in issues? Not sure how github works since I can't code... But if someone makes a request it might be useful to link the threads related to 10k as single player mode (not dp or 5k+5k or coop, deceiving the players).
I am not sure if ppy would accept it right now. Issues for unfinished items are currently not dealt with unless you are the one that will implement it.
Cra Dow
Learning C#, I might be late for that wave thou...
alexeychikk
@CircusGalop

2. download 10k skin https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_T_wNMpsy9Kr-c9m1qrdxXAjwsMj3JYC/view?usp=sharing


Does this skin require changing global offset? I feel like notes are coming late.
Cra Dow

alexeychikk wrote:

@CircusGalop

2. download 10k skin https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_T_wNMpsy9Kr-c9m1qrdxXAjwsMj3JYC/view?usp=sharing


Does this skin require changing global offset? I feel like notes are coming late.

The hit position is lower so you are hitting early. To change the "HitPosition:" go to the skin.ini of the skin and delete the line under every keycount starting as "HitPosition:" and it will automatically go to default. Do not forget to save the .ini after finishing the editing inside notepad.

https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Skinning/skin.ini?locale=en#[mania]
alexeychikk

Cra Dow wrote:

alexeychikk wrote:

@CircusGalop

2. download 10k skin https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_T_wNMpsy9Kr-c9m1qrdxXAjwsMj3JYC/view?usp=sharing


Does this skin require changing global offset? I feel like notes are coming late.

The hit position is lower so you are hitting early. To change the "HitPosition:" go to the skin.ini of the skin and delete the line under every keycount starting as "HitPosition:" and it will automatically go to default. Do not forget to save the .ini after finishing the editing inside notepad.

https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Skinning/skin.ini?locale=en#[mania]


But OSU itself matches skin's HitPosition with the music offset, doesn't it? So if I delete skin's HitPosition then I will have to press notes when they don't reach the bar line. I mean, are you basically saying that the problem is that I've developed some eye habit that forces me to press notes earlier ignoring music beat?

I feel more like HitPosition in this skin is wrong or maybe requires some offset. Or maybe this is a bug in OSU so it doesn't match HitPosition with a beat.
Full Tablet

alexeychikk wrote:

But OSU itself matches skin's HitPosition with the music offset, doesn't it? So if I delete skin's HitPosition then I will have to press notes when they don't reach the bar line. I mean, are you basically saying that the problem is that I've developed some eye habit that forces me to press notes earlier ignoring music beat?

I feel more like HitPosition in this skin is wrong or maybe requires some offset. Or maybe this is a bug in OSU so it doesn't match HitPosition with a beat.


The things to consider while synchronizing offsets are video elements, music, hitsounds/keysounds, and keyboard inputs

For video, you can move the position notes have to hit at independently from the visible judgment line by changing the hitposition, using an invisible mania-stage-hint skin element, and using JudgementLine: 0 in the skin.ini. This allows changing the synchronization of the video elements freely relative to the audio elements.

It is very hard to reduce the delay from a keyboard input and hitsounds/keysounds, and that delay is significant. You can either use hitsounds, matching the hitsound sounds to the music (by using Universal Offset of 0 or small depending on the hitsounds), and getting used to pressing early compared to the music; or disable hitsounds and change the universal offset so the keyboard presses are synced with the music.
Cra Dow

alexeychikk wrote:

But OSU itself matches skin's HitPosition with the music offset, doesn't it? So if I delete skin's HitPosition then I will have to press notes when they don't reach the bar line. I mean, are you basically saying that the problem is that I've developed some eye habit that forces me to press notes earlier ignoring music beat?

I feel more like HitPosition in this skin is wrong or maybe requires some offset. Or maybe this is a bug in OSU so it doesn't match HitPosition with a beat.


I think your problem is that you can't read well with this hitposition, changing the offset won't change how you have to hit the objects that fall...
Since the only difference this skin has is a lower hitposition.
abraker

alexeychikk wrote:

I mean, are you basically saying that the problem is that I've developed some eye habit that forces me to press notes earlier ignoring music beat?
If you are pressing notes earlier you would see hits on the left side more in the error bar. Do you?
Aishdoll-
It has been 4 year, yet still no ranked for 10k
abraker

abraker wrote:

Maybe in 2 years...

Said me, 3 years ago...

I forget but was there a ranking criteria proposal for 10k ranked yet?
Matix99
Sadly it will never happen, this gamemode has been extremely 4K-centric, to the point where since they let 4K mains "fix" the pp system in a way that hurts others more than them. Fun fact: the "pp cut in half" event from a while back is NOT a flat 50% nerf to everything as many think, but three separate changes.

1) Fuckery with strain calculation which becomes more significant at star ratings that aren't a thing on 4K besides DT(and even then it's rare), vibro/manip(unranked) and charts made specifically with star rating in mind(mostly unranked). However, those star ratings happen naturally on pure, non-gimmick charts past a certain difficulty level on higher keycounts.
2) Big buff to 960k+ scores, which incentivises playing "easy except a single spike" charts. These are popular in 4K meta, but unpopular and frowned upon in other keycounts' metas, to the point where almost no-one will want to rank it, even if it's justified by the music.
3) A flat 20% nerf to everything(specifically mania scaling multiplier going from 1.1 to 0.88).

The result is that not only 4K mains lost less pp, but Asreilly actually GAINED pp.

Let's take a hypothetical 900k score on a hypothetical OD8 chart with 2000 objects.
At 3 stars, You'd get 58.75pp pre-nerf, but now you get 69.63pp(119% of pre-nerf pp).
At 4 stars, You'd get 141.63pp pre-nerf, but now you get 135.21pp(96% of pre-nerf pp).
At 5 stars, You'd get 279.42pp pre-nerf, but now you get 224.98pp(81% of pre-nerf pp).
At 6 stars, You'd get 486.08pp pre-nerf, but now you get 340.09pp(70% of pre-nerf pp).
At 7 stars, You'd get 775.56pp pre-nerf, but now you get 481.51pp(62% of pre-nerf pp).
At 8 stars, You'd get 1161.83pp pre-nerf, but now you get 650.10pp(56% of pre-nerf pp).
At 9 stars, You'd get 1658.83pp pre-nerf, but now you get 846.60pp(51% of pre-nerf pp).

Screenshot this because it might get deleted. If my account goes too(wouldn't matter in my case since I play offline, see my signature or my earlier post in this subforum), consider making a private server(because none of the existing ones seem to rank 10k except for vibro).
Cra Dow
This feature request is more about devs changing 5k+coop skin mechanics back (removing split stages) to how it used to be when it was 10k as a default for 10k maps / 10k mod autoconverts, it was named 10k, setting a proper default layout for proper single player 10k and allowing 10k maps to be ranked as a result, allowing 10k mod on ranked autoconverts to be ranked. Nothing more nothing less...
I don't think the pp system matters at this young stage for 10k, even thou lots of players already play it for years by changing the skin.ini .
abraker
Alright so according to this https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7395178 the BN and NATs are figuring out how to separate mania ranking criteria by keymode. Once that happens someone can make a ranking criteria proposal for 10k
Cra Dow
Maybe use the same criteria as 7k with a slight alteration to allow up to 10 notes pressed simultaneously.
abraker

Cra Dow wrote:

with a slight alteration to allow up to 10 notes pressed simultaneously.
It's gonna be hard to convince BN/NAT if 7k to 9k don't allow full keys pressed simultaneously. That is a thing to allow players with 6 key rollover a fair chance, so good luck arguing against that.
Cra Dow
we can have 7 note chords now...
Just check recent ranked 7k maps, for example Last Resort's last diff
abraker
oh right it was allowed in harder diffs
Cra Dow
Smoogipoo (he is the developer that does most of the mania work in the lazer build) suggested to make a feature request / a new issue thread in the lazer github.
So here it is : https://github.com/ppy/osu/issues/8780
Waiting for for feedback.
WorldWreckerYT

FrenzyLi wrote:

CircusGalop, I'm a strong supporter of your maps. I've been playing your 10K maps for half a month. It's challenging but fun.

Let me share my keys:

Main keyboard Left Hand:A|S|D|F|spacebar
Num pad Right Hand: 0|4|5|6|enter

Umm, there's a problem. Not all laptops has a numpad. asdf ALT ALT jkl; sounds better to me.
Cra Dow
osu!lazer's default 10K layout now works with any keyboard, including laptop. I tested it and it is good.
DrLou
Recently started playing 10K and the maps are good and i think the small community would not have problems creating rankable maps.
Even after 4 Years of silence i would support the idea
z0z
i see so much potential for representing songs with 10k maps, i would go all for it
[LS]PositoniX
10k has a problem that if you're using a tenkeyless or a 60% keyboard layout then it's incredibly hard to play or to figure out where to place your hands.
Cra Dow
Not really, I've never used the numtab. And there are obvious ways to place your hands on ISO, ANSI or JIS keyboards that are very usable. ISO and Jis space and ralt + middle row, ANSI top row + space + ralt.
Rizevim
still waiting :(
DeletedUser_259972
yes please
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