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Ocelot - TSUBAKI

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JappyBabes

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
2 weeks with no response from QAT addressing the argument whether the concept is flawed or not. That's all. If standard QATs say it's fine for EX EX to go through ranking then that is that.

@ people like Cherry Blossom that post "how about you post something constructive like a mod?" - see that quote right above. Would benefit you to read the full CoC as well.
@ people that call this mapping creative - there's nothing creative about taking an idea (not even a new idea in this case) and making that your map in its entirety. < happens to be a lot of HW maps btw.
I Must Decrease

Shiirn wrote:

It's about as easy to make a rankable map as it is to make My Hero.


The point is that if someone wants to get "garbage" ranked, and they are able to have enough people willing to support them to rank it, who are you to say your opinions are more valid than everyone else's? Seriously, shitty.
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria

The ranking criteria simply discusses OBJECTIVE things such as timing and metadata and what not. Literally bringing up the point that it's "rankable" as a reason for why it shouldn't be DQ'd is absurd to me. The purpose of the qualified period is to make the mapset better, not a third check of metadata.

Also nice pointless insults. Perhaps you can grow up a bit?
Mismagius

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

00:36:412 (4) - Why is this slider even there? The echoes? That plays horribly already at the start. Follows the back melody. Not really hard to notice.
00:35:659 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - This whole part already. No explanation is given other than "this is bad", so the argument is completely invalid if you cannot give proper reasoning.
00:35:659 (1,2,3,4) - Why are those already so inconsitently spaced? It's the first 4 notes in the song and already weird to play. Then you have 00:41:086 (1,2,3,4) - which is the same but spaced that further away? Those happen in the whole map, inconsistencies, yes you can call them RHYTHM VARIATIONS or PATTERNS. No. This is too much of randomness and slacky job imo. pretty sure it's variation in this case which isn't necessairly bad. I'd rather have a map that has variation and inconsistent than having a consistent boring map.
00:54:352 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - Cool but overkill, I don't know anyone who didn't misread this. The 1/6 is too faint and the design is too overlappy to play it properly. It's pretty logical to play this, the pattern is clear enough and there aren't sudden changes in the way you click these. They are well positioned as well, in a way that it can be mostly readable by the player.
01:03:246 (4,1) - This will never play well. You don't even have to hold the slider to the left here to get a 300. If this is an issue, then an easy way to fix this would be making the SV slower in this part, but that would probably make it harder to read and break the whole purpose of the pattern-making in the map, so nope.
01:03:699 (3,4,1) - This will never, never play well. Same as ^.
01:04:000 (1) - Sound at the end of this slider changes yet no slider change, feels bad imo. I don't see how it would be possible to make the slider change...? The whole difficulty aside from the ending sliders is based on straight sliders, did you forget which map you're looking at or are you just trying to find ridiculous reasons that don't even make sense?
01:06:714 (1,2,3) - Where exactly did you find this speed in the song because I don't understand how you go from this little change in tone to that speed.
In that case, 01:08:824 (1,2,1,1) - This should be different? Why is the highest pitched note so slow? When you go 12891289 SV on the previous. It's a relative change to the pitch of the notes before. The notes before the first case have a much lower pitch than the ones in the second case, making the change much more noticeable in the first case, thus justifying the crazy slider speed there.
01:13:648 (1,2,3,4) - You go first at those to make the spacing less and less and then 01:14:251 (1,2,3,4) - both separated up and down this time which makes no sense at all ? Plays super unintuitionally also. Tones go the same way just lower or atleast emphasize 01:14:402 (2) - this beat, or put them accordingly to the song. Your map doesn't have to be Hollowed all the way through and weird. If anything, I'd just ctrl+g (2,4) here. Seems valid enough, but certainly not something unrankable.

01:15:458 (1,2,1,2) - Super retarded to play, can't see anything almost and it just plays horribly. Seriously try make that movement comfortably following all the sliders a bit so you don't get a sliderbreak or acc drop. Isn't this a thing that makes the quality of a map to actually make it comfortable to play not the other way around to some degrees? You don't even have to hold the sliders there... Just click them as notes, that's the entire point of the whole thing, what the actual fuck.
01:16:362 (1,2,3) - lol again, I understand it's the design, but it is just not suitable for a ranked map. Same as before.
01:18:623 (2,1) - Why? Same as 01:15.
01:22:091 (1) - The sound is longer than this slider, why stop? No point to stop there. No it isn't? Listen to the song, there is a 1/2 note there justifying the end of the slider.
01:22:543 (2,3,4,5,6) - This pattern, I could live with if u put the 6 down beside the 5. Seems valid, but again, not valid enough for an unrank. Also, that'd probably mean there would be a change to the entire following pattern, seems way too much effort for something extremely unnecessary.
01:23:297 (1,2,1) - Why this change in spacing? The change in sound comes after the slider starts not before or on the start. what the fuck this is a stack
01:24:956 (2,3,1) - Meh not even gonna answer this
01:25:709 (1) - This should be two circles, would be so much better. Would play awfully with the next slider.
01:26:011 (1,2,3) - Won't mention those anymore lol.
01:31:589 (4,1,2,1) - Horrible to play. Follows the song well enough, doesn't seem that hard to play. It's basically the same concept as a back-and-forth.
01:35:206 (2,1) - ^
01:38:071 (1,2,1,2) - ^ Sound changes at 01:38:373 (1) - why no direction change or anything. because THAT would play horribly.
01:53:447 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1) - Best part in the whole map.
02:06:714 (1,2) - wtf? ?
02:38:674 (1,2,3,4) - How to acc those, srsly. Yeah, accuracy is definitely a great reason to unrank a beatmap.
02:40:482 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Random spacing? If anything, I'd place 02:40:784 (3) - at 336,32. There's no need for any other change in this pattern.


Thus said. This map is more of some artistic, aesthetic thing not an actualy playable RANKED map.
I understand HW is known for weird maps and this is one of them but let's face it, had anybody else made this it would never get past any BN because of many issues.
One of the most important issue I see is the inability to properly play this map and the almost impossible task of getting high accuracy on it. Even top players can't get good acc or combo because it's so easy to break and so many uncomfortable patterns exist in this map.
Irreversible
I suggest that we wait until HW responds before everything completely gets out of the hand.
Underforest
PPL After qualify: wtf hard map, ugly pattern, EX EX for ctb, -1 -1 -1 dq dq
PPL After disqualify: wh is the issue? no no, qat

I don't get it!
_handholding

Kurokami wrote:

I did not find any answer to the mentioned issues brought up in p/5121844. Moreover, if you guys can agree that this mapset is good to go as it is and there is no need further improvement, despite of the conversation on the 17th and 18th page, it will be just moved back to the qualified section.
That guy literally wrote things like 'wtf' and '?' for every line. aer you actually using a modder like him as a reason for DQ?
WORSTPOLACKEU

Kisses wrote:

Kurokami wrote:

I did not find any answer to the mentioned issues brought up in p/5121844. Moreover, if you guys can agree that this mapset is good to go as it is and there is no need further improvement, despite of the conversation on the 17th and 18th page, it will be just moved back to the qualified section.
That guy literally wrote things like 'wtf' and '?' for every line. aer you actually using a modder like him as a reason for DQ?
Not everywhere, I can explain all points I put there and I will tomorrow.
No Pulse
If something is rankable, it not means it's good and it should be.
Nothing more to say.
Kurokami

Kisses wrote:

That guy literally wrote things like 'wtf' and '?' for every line. aer you actually using a modder like him as a reason for DQ?
Everyone needs to start somewhere, right? The reason is that there is no response to this mod and I got poke in the last hours to take a look at it quickly. I tried to contact with a standard QAT, who is not involved in the set, but even Irre wasn't online at that time. If this will get a proper response by HW with no change and no more concern come up, I will restore the map.
ac8129464363

JappyBabes wrote:

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
2 weeks with no response from QAT addressing the argument whether the concept is flawed or not. That's all. If standard QATs say it's fine for EX EX to go through ranking then that is that.
pretty sure that's not how it works anymore. iirc now everyone has to agree and there has to be no more discussion or something like that
Mismagius

Kurokami wrote:

Kisses wrote:

That guy literally wrote things like 'wtf' and '?' for every line. aer you actually using a modder like him as a reason for DQ?
Everyone needs to start somewhere, right? The reason is that there is no response to this mod and I got poke in the last hours to take a look at it quickly. I tried to contact with a standard QAT, who is no involved in the set, but even Irre wasn't online at that time. If this will get a proper response by HW with no change and no more concern come up, I will restore the map.
but I literally responded it just now

I mean it's not like it's hard to understand HW's intent behind the map
WORSTPOLACKEU

Blue Dragon wrote:

but I literally responded it just now

I mean it's not like it's hard to understand HW's intent behind the map
You are not HW, so right now it's your opinion vs mine I can also respond to your post tell you why I think otherwise, wouldn't know who is right anyway.
It maybe isn't hard to understand the intent, doesn't mean the intent is done well and some stuff feels awkward to play atleast for me so I brought it up.
I just want this map to get as good as it can before it gets ranked, is that so wrong? Your emotions flow through your text, don't know if you are friends with HW or something but it's certain that you are angry for some reason. It will get ranked eventually anyway and we all know it, I just don't want it to get ranked because it's HW's map but because the map is as good as it can be, right now it isn't.
Satella

Kurokami wrote:

Solve the issues brought up about the EX EX difficulty. I think there is a lot to discuss before this could be moved back.
hopefully it stays this way
sahuang

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

I'll raise more issues tomorrow, as detailed as I can without writing "meh".
I understand some might not be actual "issues" but if this is getting ranked it better be as good as it gets.
Strange that you keep questioning about ex ex diff and trying to stop it from ranking. that hatred...
And what do u mean by as good as it gets? This map is unique in style plus major issues have already been solved, so it's playable and should be accepted and ranked.
_handholding

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

but I literally responded it just now

I mean it's not like it's hard to understand HW's intent behind the map
You are not HW, so right now it's your opinion vs mine I can also respond to your post tell you why I think otherwise, wouldn't know who is right anyway.
Well you got a whole mapset DQ'd cos of your opinions on a particular diff. Dude does that mean any randomer can comment in a beatmap thread and get it DQ'd?
I Must Decrease

Loctav wrote:

  1. Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it.
The biggest problem that I have with this mapset is the aesthetic style leads to forced mapping choices on the creator that I believe lead to a poor experience for players. As we know, this map follows a grid focused aesthetics that leads to an extremely limited number of places of notes. This style also uses stack leniency of 2 to accomplish said grid style, which means that absolutely no notes are being displaced for any level of readability improvement. In a mapset which relies so heavily on SV changes and chaotic spacing, it's a huge oversight.

For example, in the beginning of this map, 00:35:659 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - there is a very consistent and readable level of spacing variety, which is extreme important given the grid nature of the visuals. 1/1's are consistently larger spaced and the 1/2 spacing is differential from this. However, as the map progresses, we get to this part: 00:45:910 (1) - which's theme is for the downbeat of the next measure to be on the opposite side of the last note of the previous measure. The spacing here simply does not make sense in terms of the choices of rhythm:

00:45:910 (1,2,3,4) - Kick is 1.0 spacing on 2, which then has 1.0 linear motion towards the weak beat of 3.
00:47:116 (1,2,3,4,5) - Kick has 1.0 spacing on 2, but then has 0 spacing on the weak 3 that follows then 1.0 spacing on strong 4 with 1.0 spacing to 5.

This immediately is an inconsistency in spacing choices for 3, why have different levels of spacing for the same sound. In a part that is SO restricted that it has literally only two angles of motion, the choices made here need to be extremely purposeful.

00:48:322 (1,2,3,4) - kick is 1.0 spacing on 2, which then has 0 distance weak beat 3 underneath.
00:49:528 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - small spacing on drum on 4 leads to giant 2.0 jump on strong clap of 5.

Now the first pattern should be noted as having the exact same musical sound of the first pattern, but randomly chooses to overlap 3 instead of not. The only reason I can come up for why this choice was made was in order to make it so that the 4 that follows is the maximum distance away from 3.
As for 00:49:528 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - , we have double spacing on the clap that before was only emphasized with a space of 1.0, I understand there is some difference in rhythm, but compare 00:47:116 (1,2,3,4,5) - 4 is the exact same strong beat but is only given half the spacing because HW chose to make her design so restrictive that she has to place 5 on the end not 4 because she wants to keep her theme.

This is where I believe this map starts to fall apart, because she's mapping towards the theme and not the song. I know I'm being extremely short with this mod but... lazy.

The song's should be what drives the theme, and the theme shouldn't be tacked on. If she wasn't using such a restrictive style on this part she could much more closely follow the song's strong beats with appropriate spacing. Therefore I believe that the concept behind the beatmap is fundamentally flawed for ATLEAST this section of the song.


to Blue Dragon: as for a suggestion on what to do about this: Don't use a restrictive style that forces the mapper to make choices that aren't in the best interest of the song.
WORSTPOLACKEU

sahuang wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

I'll raise more issues tomorrow, as detailed as I can without writing "meh".
I understand some might not be actual "issues" but if this is getting ranked it better be as good as it gets.
Strange that you keep questioning about ex ex diff and trying to stop it from ranking. that hatred...
And what do u mean by as good as it gets? This map is unique in style plus major issues have already been solved, so it's playable and should be accepted and ranked.
I am not angry at all, I like HW's maps a lot. I like the unique style but I stay objective and can see issues, so I bring them up.
"it's playable and should be accepted and ranked".
So is every rabbit jumping map.
Major issues have been solved but I STILL SEE ISSUES on my own so I present them, HW does what she wants with them.
Nakano Itsuki
Hey, if mappers and modders cant judge a map if they aren't able to play it..

Then why are 6 and 7* maps that you usually play ranked in the first place?
I'm pretty sure they can't judge it since they can't play it, no?
sahuang

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

So is every rabbit jumping map.
Not agreeing with you about this cuz rabbit jumps are always 200bpm cross-screen jumps. This doesn't make much sense compared to this map,where every pattern is carefully concerned and considered before composing.
I Must Decrease

sahuang wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

So is every rabbit jumping map.
Not agreeing with you about this cuz rabbit jumps are always 200bpm cross-screen jumps. This doesn't make much sense compared to this map,where every pattern is carefully concerned and considered before composing.
Please read my mod on page 22 and explain to me why the choices I brought up are well thought out and carefully concerned and considered before composing.
Illkryn
Why do you care so much?
"You" being pretty much everyone getting emotional over it.
It doesn't effect you at all.

I have no mapping experience but it seems like it plays pretty fine.
At the end of the day, isn't that what counts?

If some like it, it was approved for ranking but you don't like it. Just don't play it?

Seems pretty simple to me.

End goal for maps is things for people to play, nobody is ever going to universally agree on a map.
I Must Decrease

Mazziv wrote:

Illkryn wrote:

If some like it, it was approved for ranking but you don't like it. Just don't play it?
+1
ok rank any map that meets RC requirements

literally the worst argument in the game
Mismagius
by the way: if you're gonna complain about the map being flawed, at least give suggestions other than "remap" or "delete the diff" on how to make it better
ImBuGs
I also suggest to wait for HW's opinion on WORSTPOLACKEU issues before moving on, even though BD seems to have answered them pretty accordingly.

On the other hand i just cant understand why this got on hold until the last minute.

Im salty as fuck


EDIT: I also think that WPEU should give more detailed arguments.
Illkryn

Xexxar wrote:

Illkryn wrote:

If some like it, it was approved for ranking but you don't like it. Just don't play it?
ok rank any map that meets RC requirements

literally the worst argument in the game
"It was approved for ranking"
Don't just skip points for your convenience, I made sure to cover that.

You're too emotional about this. Chill.
Irreversible
I think we should give HW a chance to read everything and give a reply. Having more comments that don't clearly contribute to this map won't help in this case, so I will lock it until HW is able to respond.
Fycho
Unlocked on hw's request.

Please keep in mind that we discuss this mapset itself, help the mapper, rather than anything else. Any nonsense spam / offtopic or useless posts would lead a silence.

GL.
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings
have read 7 pages, here i give simple answers because i think it's not necessary to give feedback to mod - i've got no mod.

to Kathex: you are just delayed from current mapping nowadays, in rc, progress or most things of it.

to winber1: reading patterns can confuse you ofc, if you really read the map's cw. that truely is the point of that difficulty, and you've missed it at all.

to WORSTPOLACKEU: overviewed the "mod" thou i think most of them can be like "This will never play well." which i really don't think can be regarded as a mod, even did after the map got ranked. the map is obviously possible to play even get fc or ss score. and what's more important, you mentioned no unranble issues.
and if you wanna talking about ranking criteria, this thread is not the right place imo.

to Alveryn: i don't think extra level diff is made for everyone to enjoy.

to SFGrenade: sv change and different kiai for gd are allowed.

to Kurokami: well, i got the situation, and thanks for taking care these things, it's also appreciation that other modes' qats don't mind get involved into this. (qat get really busy lol, everyone should know that, especially mappers imo.)
if responding mods after the map qualified is also a responsibility to any mapper in any maps, i'll do that from now on and avoid such dq like this.

to Xexxar: slot at p/5133943 shows no issues, and btw, spacing and sv settings like ex ex diff are really common in ranked maps nowadays, that diff just bend all sliders into straight horizonal ones.

that's it.

to everyone: i know my maps may be questionalble, and still here those are. believe it or not, i've almost considered all possible points of people even in the last drama, by asking bunches of peoples' opinions much more than ones appeared in this thread. for that, you can regard my works as depending on - i can say, like at least 100 persons' - opinions in every map i've made. they can be short irc mods, tests or even detail checking by tools, double tests after those. noobs have complained those tricky patterns to let me low down some ridiculous spikes, pros have given personal opinions to let me provide more confortable settings to play, mappers even told some unbelieveble ideas or various suggestions as other styles' mappers. then i choose what i wanna insist and what really should be changed: just like seeking mods and giving feedback, but i think lots of people didn't remind how important that is. you may say this map is not perfect and i haven't think deep, just test me, find the issue and convince me. if you really can do that, it'll be always welcomed.

so waiting for next progress.
Karen
things got replied, here you go again
Natsu
Hey please don't forget to remove CLSW and examination from tags x.x
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

Natsu wrote:

Hey please don't forget to remove CLSW and examination from tags x.x
hmmmmmm i think that's ok to keep the tag, how cw's gd can't be added into metadata...? clsw and examination's gds are used to be in the mapset, which i've asked them to put their effort into this, i think that can be considered into someones who contributed to the map, too. for ctb players, i think those diffs are valueble to give a try, too... x.x
hyouri
but the ctb diffs are gone?? or am I stupid or something http://puu.sh/oYtkq/54aacb9ac4.png cause I can't see them
Kaine

Alveryn wrote:

but the ctb diffs are gone?? or am I stupid or something http://puu.sh/oYtkq/54aacb9ac4.png cause I can't see them
My tags make objective sense, not make your sense.
-Kanzaki
I just wonder if this on purpose 01:03:699 (3,4,1) -
01:03:699 (3,4,1) -





Kick slider's movements usualy works like this :




but to get 300 you have to make the first picture movement i wonder why no ctrl g 4 ?
Monstrata
I'm a bit busy atm, but I'm planning on qualifying this map in like ~ 2 days. I realize the thread was locked for a while so lets give some time for people to finalize their opinions. It seems the majority of discussion points here have concluded, and I'm happy with that. However, if anyone still has anything left to say, now would be the best time, before the map is requalified.
Ayesha Altugle
I would at least decrease the sv on 01:03:699 (3,4)
Topic Starter
Hollow Wings

-Kanzaki wrote:

I just wonder if this on purpose 01:03:699 (3,4,1) -
01:03:699 (3,4,1) -





Kick slider's movements usualy works like this :




but to get 300 you have to make the first picture movement i wonder why no ctrl g 4 ? because i want players make the first picture movement, if you are only talking about playability here.

Shizuku- wrote:

I would at least decrease the sv on 01:03:699 (3,4) that beat at the head is heavy enough to gain a longer slider.
WORSTPOLACKEU
Sure thing.
If you don't think there are any issues then well, go ahead rank this thing.
I still think you could improve the map but it seems you think it is good enough.

GL
Rockageek
GL for rerank and rip ctb diffs T_T
ac8129464363
ctb diffs are in the description and they were made for this set, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for people to be able to search and find them, even if they aren't ranked with the rest of the set. It would, however, be nice if the links to the diffs were in a more noticeable place lol
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