a loli wrote:

why is there a 4* map in hd pool?

A 4.25 stars map can be as difficult as a 5.25 stars map, it just depends on the mapping style itself.
For example 0108's maps like with a dance number or scarlet rose which are mostly under 5.25 stars are difficult to play or FC, because it requires technical skills.

Just keep in mind that star rating doesn't really mean anything in terms of difficulty for many cases.

Just played the HR pool sv2. You'd have to be garbage not to pass tsubomi or mangekyou. Unless they literally changed something in past day that I'm unaware of sv2 doesn't appear to have anything to do with it.

chainpullz wrote:

Just played the HR pool sv2. You'd have to be garbage not to pass tsubomi or mangekyou. Unless they literally changed something in past day that I'm unaware of sv2 doesn't appear to have anything to do with it.

Sorry we cant all be perfect like you. HP drain 2 stronk

chainpullz wrote:

Just played the HR pool sv2. You'd have to be garbage not to pass tsubomi or mangekyou. Unless they literally changed something in past day that I'm unaware of sv2 doesn't appear to have anything to do with it.

The discussion is about Clumsy Thoughts only.

fartownik wrote:

chainpullz wrote:

Just played the HR pool sv2. You'd have to be garbage not to pass tsubomi or mangekyou. Unless they literally changed something in past day that I'm unaware of sv2 doesn't appear to have anything to do with it.

The discussion is about Clumsy Thoughts only.

Yeah, I agree with that one. Was mostly directing my comment at KevEz tossing the other two in with it. You can get below 90% accuracy with misses and still pass the other two. Clumsy Thoughts is hard enough to pass in sv1. I think its the map and not sv2.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

a loli wrote:

why is there a 4* map in hd pool?

A 4.25 stars map can be as difficult as a 5.25 stars map, it just depends on the mapping style itself.
For example 0108's maps like with a dance number or scarlet rose which are mostly under 5.25 stars are difficult to play or FC, because it requires technical skills.

Just keep in mind that star rating doesn't really mean anything in terms of difficulty for many cases.

it's 4.08 actually. The only thing this map has for difficulty is its low AR on hd, the map itself is easy compared to the other picks




and I don't see the problem with clumsy thought. Who doesn't like knowing they're dying a slow death as soon as they miss or hit multiple 100s in a row?

a loli wrote:

and I don't see the problem with clumsy thought. Who doesn't like knowing they're dying a fast death as soon as they miss or hit multiple 100s in a row?

ftfy, sorry, could not resist

No, but seriously. If its only one map, where is the problem? Ban or ignore it, and you should be fine. In my opinion, its a very strategical pick and adds a little more flavour into the mappool. Just my 2 cents, i could be very far off.

[TaikoTori] wrote:

In my opinion, its a very strategical pick and adds a little more flavour into the mappool. Just my 2 cents, i could be very far off.

It's less of a "oh, we're better than the others at this, lets pick this so that we win!" but more of a "so, either we ban this and do us and our enemies a favour or hope that noone picks it - because we can fail even if we FC this". Kinda more risky than it's worth.

Or well, maybe youre playing the shit out of the map so that youre confident enough to play and not fail after a few 100s (and hope that the others fail).

Yauxo wrote:

[TaikoTori] wrote:

In my opinion, its a very strategical pick and adds a little more flavour into the mappool. Just my 2 cents, i could be very far off.

It's less of a "oh, we're better than the others at this, lets pick this so that we win!" but more of a "so, either we ban this and do us and our enemies a favour or hope that noone picks it - because we can fail even if we FC this". Kinda more risky than it's worth.

Or well, maybe youre playing the shit out of the map so that youre confident enough to play and not fail after a few 100s (and hope that the others fail).

So if you're russia you leave it open and if you're anyone else you ban it?

chainpullz wrote:

So if you're russia you leave it open and if you're anyone else you ban it?

Gotta play that roulette mang. But honestly i love sseeing some acc battles, maybe we're going to see multiple FCs... so what? It's a rhythm game after all. (Just waiting for someone to SS that dang HR map).

E: Also hyped to see Finland getting a group they can pass, H Y P E

a loli wrote:

it's 4.08 actually. The only thing this map has for difficulty is its low AR on hd, the map itself is easy compared to the other picks

It's a strategical pick. It's 100% about reading and managing changes of pace. Hidden enforces this specific difficulty further which is why this map becomes hard enough(for HR/nomod/freemod this would be a joke indeed). Maybe I'm leaning out a bit far but I'm very sure that we won't see 8 and probably not even 4 FCs on it when it gets picked and it might even draw bans from teams that consider themselves bad at Hidden as it is the map that attacks weaknesses in reading HD the most due to its style.

Why not add a 7* map to the pool too. I don't see the problem, teams can just ban it if they can't play it!




Having vetos is not an excuse to put gimmick map picks into the pool.

.-. mb ur missing the point of a 'strategic pick' have you seen the CTB WC? they had some ar7map which no one could play. they always add one or two interesting maps and I would be curious to see how this map is picked

a loli wrote:

Why not add a 7* map to the pool too. I don't see the problem, teams can just ban it if they can't play it!




Having vetos is not an excuse to put gimmick map picks into the pool.

Doesn't even need to be 7*. Just toss save the queen into the map pool. LOL

But seriously, every map as it is will probably come down to an acc battle considering the difficulty of the maps compared to the skill of the players. Was hoping the group stage pool difficulty would increase this year to reflect the increase in skill level of players since last year tbh.

Strategic pick or not, a pick that relies on hoping the other team fucks up instead of your own skill is a terrible way to assess the "best team"

chainpullz wrote:

Was hoping the group stage pool difficulty would increase this year to reflect the increase in skill level of players since last year tbh.

second this, the competition has increased a ton over the span of a year. The group stage map picks are still the same difficulty as last years.

Regarding how you look at it you're always hoping for the other team to fuck up as there's no way to win a map without them doing so. If you picked the map cause you knew that you would perform better than they could it's also "relying on your own skill".
This is OWC so one should be able to assume that the best teams can perform on every map regardless whether it is "gimmicky" or not. The map itself is very reasonably mapped after all, we're not talking about the level of the Hyadain Chocobo-Map here. Just because it's testing a skill that is irrelevant to pp doesn't mean that it isn't a skill that puts players apart from each other.
Maybe it's just me but I would find an OWC that exclusively consists of Fycho's J-Pop Insanes of appropriate star diff extremely unappealing. While Fycho maps are usually pretty good it would be boring due to the same style all the way through and it wouldn't be about "who is the best at any type of map?" but "who is the best at Fycho maps?". I prefer the former and I like the pick by the map selectors. Looking forward to this map getting played.

a loli wrote:

Strategic pick or not, a pick that relies on hoping the other team fucks up instead of your own skill is a terrible way to assess the "best team"

Any hidden pick 90% of the time is the same strategy? Remove hidden from OWC?
The team choosing it relies on their own skill being better than that of the opposing team, it's perfectly fine.

Also, I agree with Endaris on the mappool. So far it's pretty pleasant to play and it doesn't feel like it's all the same stuff everywhere.
Keep it up!

Kert wrote:

Any hidden pick 90% of the time is the same strategy? Remove hidden from OWC?
The team choosing it relies on their own skill being better than that of the opposing team, it's perfectly fine.

I don't mind the hd pool, and I don't even know what your first statement is trying to make, since I never said anything about removing hd from the pool

this map is FOUR stars, and its only difficulty comes from its slow pace and low difficulty settings. Of course picking a map, you're going to be relying on your teams skill. This is one of the maps where you're leaning towards the other team randomly breaking rather than your whole team fcing.

The point is, the map selectors could have picked a map that had a higher difficulty rating, while still keeping that gimmicky difficulty preserved. I can't speak for everyone else, but playing some incredibly low bpm, low spaced map for owc is just anti-climactic

a loli wrote:

I don't mind the hd pool, and I don't even know what your first statement is trying to make, since I never said anything about removing hd from the pool

You suggested that gimmicky maps shouldn't be in the mappool a few posts above because of this kind of strategy.

a loli wrote:

this map is FOUR stars, and its only difficulty comes from its slow pace and low difficulty settings. Of course picking a map, you're going to be relying on your teams skill. This is one of the maps where you're leaning towards the other team randomly breaking rather than your whole team fcing.

Teams differ and some may rely on their own team skill instead. Anything wrong with this?

a loli wrote:

The point is, the map selectors could have picked a map that had a higher difficulty rating, while still keeping that gimmicky difficulty preserved. I can't speak for everyone else, but playing some incredibly low bpm, low spaced map for owc is just anti-climactic

You probably just don't like slow maps.

Gimmicky in terms of slow paced with low difficulty settings, yes. I never said hd itself was gimmicky, stop putting words in my mouth

>you probably don't like slow maps
I enjoy low bpm maps with HIGH star difficulty


I would still complain about this map even if it were in nomod

a loli wrote:

I enjoy low bpm maps with HIGH star difficulty

If you stop looking at star difficulty, that'd be great! Thanks in advance. Reasoning provided below:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

A 4.25 stars map can be as difficult as a 5.25 stars map, it just depends on the mapping style itself... Just keep in mind that star rating doesn't really mean anything in terms of difficulty for many cases.

I would add that it also doesn't mean anything in terms of how fun the map is to play.

a loli, I know you already responded to Cherry Blossom's post, but I just wanted to quote it again, since I totally agree with him.

a loli wrote:

The only thing this map has for difficulty is its low AR on hd

So? It's still difficult then, right? What difference does it make where that difficulty comes from? Low AR on HD? Well then learn to read low AR on HD!

Gigo wrote:

If you stop looking at star difficulty, that'd be great!

What's wrong with using the ingame metric to determine map difficulty? It works well for nearly every map in osu.

Just because a select few maps are, keep in mind, subjectively harder, doesn't mean every map is, nor does it mean that star rating should be discarded as an inept system. Others may consider this as hard as the other maps, but this is not a map that I would consider harder than 4.5 stars at most.

Gigo wrote:

I would add that it also doesn't mean anything in terms of how fun the map is to play.

What a surprise, people have different perspectives of fun! Isn't this what started this whole discussion, a conflict of opinions?

You could argue all you want about strategical picks, unique skillsets etc. I'm just calling the map out how I see it, rather than going in-depth about the strategies around it.

Gigo wrote:

So? It's still difficult then, right? What difference does it make where that difficulty comes from?

Are you even reading what you write? You're basically saying "anything goes as long as it's difficult".

No, this isn't osu!s got talent. This is OWC. In x-factor, contestants don't compete with magic tricks, they compete by singing sophisticated songs, and the audience probably don't want to hear contestants singing terrible songs (in this case, maps) either

Gigo wrote:

Well then learn to read low AR on HD!

This is a terrible argument

a loli wrote:

Gigo wrote:

Well then learn to read low AR on HD!

This is a terrible argument

Hey, I may be a shitter but that's not a terrible argument. Reading low AR HD is a desirable skill, remember this is a rhythm game?

explain?

I could map a 200bpm song with only full screen jumps, and respond to people calling the map bad to "learn how to jump 200bpm!"




e/

This is a rhythm game with an AIMING aspect also, not just a rhythmic aspect. This map lacks the aiming aspect, which is a huge reason as to why it's "underrated" (surprise surprise).

0108 style maps are considered underrated firstly because it has a ton of sliders, which aren't calculated properly in star difficulty, and secondly alternating is a pursued playstyle which combined with very spaced objects, makes the map a whole lot harder to players that do not have the appropriate playstyles (i.e. single tappers). Alternating itself is NOT hard imo

This map has only one aspect that is the same as 0108 style maps, which is the slow alternating (or fast single tapping) of the beats. This map does not have a large amount of sliders, does not have huge spacing (the circles overlap each other), and does not have the awkward patterns that are incorporated into 0108 style maps. In short, the things that make 0108 style maps "underrated" are not present in the map that we are discussing

I was exaggerating the low AR in terms of its readability, but it is still below AR9. The difference in AR9 and this maps AR isn't too much to get worked up about, but everything else I say about the map I will stand by my argument.

I would argue that reading low AR HD is not a desirable skill; nearly every ranked map these days with an insane+ difficulty are mapped above AR9. Most maps you are going to play in the higher end of the difficulty spectrum are going to be AR9 or above, reading below AR9 is not a necessary skill to be a top ranked player, but reading AR9 and above is a necessary skill to be a top player (unless there are enough maps below AR9 to get into top 100?)

If you think that this map is so shiteasy and inappropriate for OWC due to low difficulty pls provide proof by doing a HDSS. I mean it's only 4.08 stars and even when considering reading strain it feels like a 4.5* at best and it is only fucking OD7 so it should be a piece of cake for you to HDSS this as you're able to play MUCH MORE difficult maps.

But what does one see on your profile?
Plenty of FCs on maps from the mappool but on the discussed pick you get an A...

a loli wrote:

I would argue that reading low AR HD is not a desirable skill; nearly every ranked map these days with an insane+ difficulty are mapped above AR9. Most maps you are going to play in the higher end of the difficulty spectrum are going to be AR9 or above, reading below AR9 is not a necessary skill to be a top ranked player, but reading AR9 and above is a necessary skill to be a top player (unless there are enough maps below AR9 to get into top 100?)

Being the very best requires you to be able to excel at everything. No, I'm not talking about PP and rankings

Back to this argument, eh?

I can't provide HDSS proof, guess everything I said is invalid now, sorry guys.

Kert wrote:

a loli wrote:

I would argue that reading low AR HD is not a desirable skill; nearly every ranked map these days with an insane+ difficulty are mapped above AR9. Most maps you are going to play in the higher end of the difficulty spectrum are going to be AR9 or above, reading below AR9 is not a necessary skill to be a top ranked player, but reading AR9 and above is a necessary skill to be a top player (unless there are enough maps below AR9 to get into top 100?)

Being the very best requires you to be able to excel at everything. No, I'm not talking about PP and rankings

have an EZmod pool then.

Also, I don't see a 300+bpm pool either

a loli wrote:

have an EZmod pool then.
Also, I don't see a 300+bpm pool either

Why are you exaggerating so much? This 4 star HD map isn't close to EZ or 300bpm level of difficulty. Or is it?

it's a direct statement to your "to be best, must be best at everything"

a loli wrote:

Back to this argument, eh?

I can't provide HDSS proof, guess everything I said is invalid now, sorry guys.

Kert wrote:

Being the very best requires you to be able to excel at everything. No, I'm not talking about PP and rankings

have an EZmod pool then.

Also, I don't see a 300+bpm pool either

Not an argument people will like but it's a legit one. If you want to test every skill then ez mod pools and things should exist. Obviously we don't actually want to test every skill ever, OWC has always been about reading and aim, very little stamina and speed involved relative to the amount of aim/reading required.

a loli wrote:

it's a direct statement to your "to be best, must be best at everything"

It's an OWC thread though.
But yeah, Player A who is top tier at everything (regular skills?) would be worse than player B who is the same but can also EZ, FL and 300bpm streams

jesus1412 wrote:

OWC has always been about reading and aim, very little stamina and speed involved relative to the amount of aim/reading required

Yes, and ultimately my complaint with this map is it has only reading and (nearly) no aiming. The people that are saying that it's just an underrated map seem to be ignoring the aiming aspect.

Honestly I never thought this thread will blow up because of one complaint

Well, you made a generalised statement that you wouldn't deem the map appropriate for OWC instead of saying that you personally dislike it.
I disagree with the former, I think it fits in well but I can see why people might dislike the map.
I wouldn't mind an EZ-pool but EZ needs more popularity to make it reasonable

Please consider that the Group Stage is considered as mere Qualification stage, seeding all players according to their initial performance into the actual tournament, starting from Round of 16. Only 16 of 32 countries can in fact qualify. Therefore, the Group Stage pool is designed to measure said seeding and to offer a proper qualification stage, hence why it is way easier than what comes from RO16 and further.

a loli wrote:

Kert wrote:

Being the very best requires you to be able to excel at everything. No, I'm not talking about PP and rankings

have an EZmod pool then.

Also, I don't see a 300+bpm pool either

It is not that I want to say stamina wtf or EZ go away. I just like to add a little spice to Kert's opinion. No need to go that extreme to both sides since only few has achieved them. We can say this player is godly on certain mod, and say "yes they are the best". However, tournament is more like generalizing the players to tournament's standards and ranking them. It would be good to see players able to play 300BPM or EZ but then it will not be a competition because only few outstanding ones can play so we need to adjust it on the both end.

About what jesse said, we are working on this issue and I can say that you might see a positive result.

2ToGlette:
I wasn't suggesting actually adding EZ mappools and stuff like that (that would be a too sudden change for now),
I am just being positive about mappickers' ideas of spicing up the list of maps with something a tad gimmicky : )

Loctav wrote:

Please consider that the Group Stage is considered as mere Qualification stage, seeding all players according to their initial performance into the actual tournament, starting from Round of 16. Only 16 of 32 countries can in fact qualify. Therefore, the Group Stage pool is designed to measure said seeding and to offer a proper qualification stage, hence why it is way easier than what comes from RO16 and further.

Oh I'm glad you answered this in the middle of the mess,

are there going to be plans to change next years OWC then? I'm sure a lot of the OWC players would rather play a bit more difficult maps, especially considering the skill level of the more experienced player base increases every year. The level of the maps in the finals pool last year have increased astoundingly, maps that were in the finals a few years ago would be considered entry level in these times.

I guess this argument is more about me being a bit salty that as a player on a non-seeded team that is most likely going to be knocked out in group stages, it feels like we (teams not expected to win) are being treated as if we're not good enough to play harder maps.

The group stage pool will always be balanced around the average audience playing in it. This includes players hovering in ranks way below Top 1000. It makes no sense to pick maps that may make top 1000 players struggle, but where people below it can not even reasonably compete.

Sure stronger people will always be stronger, but making things way harder than it is right now is just humiliating the lower end of the participating people.

Someone has made a "Pick'em Challenge" for the OWC on reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/commen ... 5_pick_em/

Well, it's something.

No little girl statistics yet though :/