don't sweat it I make sure we have pro's and those who are well versed in the respective game mode, not to mention some of these players were not so low in ranking as they are today that doesn't make there understanding of the game change at all.
I second this notion. While ztrot can make up for the gap in skills using his experience, I don't think this should be the case for all commentators. I casted for All-Star and OCWT and know how valuable the opinion from someone of a higher rank is - they see maps differently and can sometimes point to very interesting details that would remain invisible to a mundane player's eyes.Minifrij wrote:
While I have no problems with any of the commentators, nor am I saying that they should be scrapped, having three people with the max rank of about 14k talk about players who are usually under rank 1k is a bit silly. Having Raiku last year to commentate made things a lot better for me.
If you had several issues, don't name me, or anyone else by the way. Everyone moved on, quoting someone from something that happened last year isn't a good way to start any tournament. If someone who was involved is still upset about that last owc, I am open to any discussion. So far my case was only related to who gets to be captain, good thing you now choose. Wish that World Cup to be successful.Loctav wrote:
We had several issues in particular communities being super bitchy about who is the captain, who gets in the team, even forming two parallel teams and I had to decide who ends up in the cup. This is bullshit and pointless drama. (Right Ryosuke-? You were causing this bullcrap in France last year)
Second this here, commentators should be top players or above average players who have caught up most what is going on among the top players in these days. They should be well known by the community as well along with their experiences and reputation. Getting some of well known streamers who are capable in their English and experienced in today maps wouldn't hurt. No offense, not saying that deadbeat, Tasha and ztrot are incapable in the sense of commentator, but do they really know what players actually feel like when they are competing? do they know what part of the particular maps will be crucial, difficult, peaked or combo breakers for most of players so that it can be more entertaining during the matches if they add up? do they know how well each player is good or bad at when discussing during the breaks? do they know what is going on among the top players in general? These 3 commentators aren't close to what can be considered good players. I don't think they actually have the knowledge in general as they could be busy moderating as staffs rather than playing competitively.fartownik wrote:
We just suggested some people that could do some good work here. I'm pretty sure none of the commentators involved here followed the All-Star tournament that I was talking about and noticed that you could use some of them as they're not just good at commentating live events during the game, but also have some good knowledge of players, maps and game mechanics in general. This tournament lacks casters like this.
Seconded.Azlynn wrote:
Hey guys I'm not really known around here yet but I've been around other rhythm games for quite some time. I can totally understand why you all think of higher level players as commentators but you have to remember it's not just about the higher level players. Commentators are catering to all different skill levels including people who may have never played the game before and are watching for the first time. Of course those commentating should definitely have a good knowledge of the game, but they really don't need to have good skill at it to be a good commentator. It's mostly about being able to hype up the crowd and working well together as a team. If you just throw anyone on and they don't work well together, the commentary isn't going to be that great.
Please don't take this as me saying no higher level player should be added on or anything, just wanted to voice that it's not just about a person's skill level when it comes to commentary <3
Watch past OWC matches and then compare them with the recent All-Star ones.Azlynn wrote:
Hey guys I'm not really known around here yet but I've been around other rhythm games for quite some time. I can totally understand why you all think of higher level players as commentators but you have to remember it's not just about the higher level players. Commentators are catering to all different skill levels including people who may have never played the game before and are watching for the first time. Of course those commentating should definitely have a good knowledge of the game, but they really don't need to have good skill at it to be a good commentator. It's mostly about being able to hype up the crowd and working well together as a team. If you just throw anyone on and they don't work well together, the commentary isn't going to be that great.
Please don't take this as me saying no higher level player should be added on or anything, just wanted to voice that it's not just about a person's skill level when it comes to commentary <3
fartownik wrote:
Watch past OWC matches and then compare them with the recent All-Star ones.
No.Halogen- wrote:
Extrapolating recent instances of something to prove your point doesn't make your point any stronger.
The fact of the matter is that it absolutely does not require players of extreme skill to commentate. You need charismatic individuals who are willing to learn about the necessary aspects of the game to talk about them as they happen. Having someone who is extremely well versed in the technical side of things will make commentary sound more professional, but too much of it will make it sound foreign to people who don't play the game as much. If what I'm hearing in the thread is true, this tournament typically racks up tens of thousands of viewers at one given time, and I'd be willing to guarantee that not all of them are savants at the game, either.
Someone also made a good point too: there's a risk with letting irresponsible people commentate, and there are a number of individuals in this thread expressing interest that have already shown pretty noticeable signs of immaturity.
Please don't take this as me saying no higher level player should be added on or anything, just wanted to voice that it's not just about a person's skill level when it comes to commentary <3
Some people are unsatisfied with the current commmentary lineup, or would just like to hear different voices every once in a while, I think that's the main driving force behind the call for different/more commentators this year. My opinion on this is biased, but keeping things fresh is never a bad thing.Lust wrote:
The thing is though I can hardly imagine a game where deadbeat, Tasha, and ztrot aren't commentating (unless one of them is out for the time being, for which case a sub can be found). Having commentator rotations could be neat, but highly unneccessary for something of this nature (at least in my own opinion).
I understand where you are coming from, but you don't seem to have been around much. The reason why many of the players you see here raising this issue in this thread is because they feel that there are players who can be BOTH high ranked AND charismatic/caster-capable enough to man the position. And these top players who run streams on Twitch on a regular basis (loliforz, Azer, HappyStick, Doomsday, Tokichii, Jesus1412, list goes on) are used to talking in front of hundreds and we thus have valid reasons to trust that they have the skills.Azlynn wrote:
Hey guys I'm not really known around here yet but I've been around other rhythm games for quite some time. I can totally understand why you all think of higher level players as commentators but you have to remember it's not just about the higher level players. Commentators are catering to all different skill levels including people who may have never played the game before and are watching for the first time. Of course those commentating should definitely have a good knowledge of the game, but they really don't need to have good skill at it to be a good commentator. It's mostly about being able to hype up the crowd and working well together as a team. If you just throw anyone on and they don't work well together, the commentary isn't going to be that great.
Please don't take this as me saying no higher level player should be added on or anything, just wanted to voice that it's not just about a person's skill level when it comes to commentary <3
That could make OWC pretty interesting...StarrStyx wrote:
I think the idea was to have other commentators as guests and not full time owc casters. Also the idea I pointed out a few pages back also mentioned about guest casting for other commentators from other tourneys.
While guest commentating isn't inherently a bad thing (hell, I'd love to have some fresh voices with varied experience on board), the point I made earlier is that having tons of people on air at once can lead to a pretty rough atmosphere if not rehearsed beforehand. Having things like post-match breakdowns/highlights, interviews, and discussions could be interesting and would be neat to have with more guests but has to be worked into the tight schedule that they run on already. Pretty much why osu! talk discussions on the matches occur after the round ends from what I've seen haha.StarrStyx wrote:
I think the idea was to have other commentators as guests and not full time owc casters. Also the idea I pointed out a few pages back also mentioned about guest casting for other commentators from other tourneys.
Oh yeah, I'd totally love to hear different people on the mic - I just think with the current situation having more than what we have right now + give or take one or two people could be unrealistic. Lets see what happens moving forward!rfandomization wrote:
Some people are unsatisfied with the current commmentary lineup, or would just like to hear different voices every once in a while, I think that's the main driving force behind the call for different/more commentators this year. My opinion on this is biased, but keeping things fresh is never a bad thing.Lust wrote:
The thing is though I can hardly imagine a game where deadbeat, Tasha, and ztrot aren't commentating (unless one of them is out for the time being, for which case a sub can be found). Having commentator rotations could be neat, but highly unneccessary for something of this nature (at least in my own opinion).
Whatever it takes to make the best tournament, that's the bottom line. Whether that means no changes, or yes changes is the consideration i guess. It'll be up to the management to make the call when it's all said and done.
Couldn't have said it better myself, although it would be interesting to have an experienced mapper and modder on board that is aware of the current meta that can provide valuable insights during the gamesEvrien wrote:
I understand where you are coming from, but you don't seem to have been around much. The reason why many of the players you see here raising this issue in this thread is because they feel that there are players who can be BOTH high ranked AND charismatic/caster-capable enough to man the position. And these top players who run streams on Twitch on a regular basis (loliforz, Azer, HappyStick, Doomsday, Tokichii, Jesus1412, list goes on) are used to talking in front of hundreds and we thus have valid reasons to trust that they pass have the skills.Azlynn wrote:
Hey guys I'm not really known around here yet but I've been around other rhythm games for quite some time. I can totally understand why you all think of higher level players as commentators but you have to remember it's not just about the higher level players. Commentators are catering to all different skill levels including people who may have never played the game before and are watching for the first time. Of course those commentating should definitely have a good knowledge of the game, but they really don't need to have good skill at it to be a good commentator. It's mostly about being able to hype up the crowd and working well together as a team. If you just throw anyone on and they don't work well together, the commentary isn't going to be that great.
Please don't take this as me saying no higher level player should be added on or anything, just wanted to voice that it's not just about a person's skill level when it comes to commentary <3
We do not in any way say that the official casters are inferior - this is a qualitative statement that we can't prove statistically. We are merely saying that other people are just as ready able and willing, and there should be a window through which they can posit themselves forward - that is, if Loctav is considering this already and if so I rest my case.
The thing is though I can hardly imagine a game where deadbeat, Tasha, and ztrot aren't commentatingYeah, deadbeat is my favourite
That's why you have more than 3 people commentating, and you switch them up so commentators get adequate breaksLoctav wrote:
Interested in non-existent sleep schedules, being on constant coffee, talking 8-12 hours straight without peeing for the next 7 weekends? Being full of hype, able to break down your knowledge to the very basics?
This 100%. It's not like peppy actually pays $$$ to commentators. Thus, no matter how much the commentators want to work the matches, real life and real occupations take priority.Loctav wrote:
Unfortunately, experience prove that it is hard to find people that stick to schedules reliably. The general idea of rotating commentators out is a given and clear, but we recruited people from all over the places and the current core team is the only bunch I can plan with a 99% reliability. In last years OWC, this was not a given. (Reliability resolved around 60%)
I know we need to have a bigger core team, but this core team should exist for all 5 world cups. Because finding reliable people is hard here.
I see, I do agree that combo matters too much right now but if player A gets a 200 combo 99% score and tons of misses and player B gets fc 1200 combo and 90% score, player B deserves more score (that kind of scenario does happen all the time with me, I'm player A). With the numbers that you said (ofc, this is just an example, as you said that could be tweaked) player B would get at least 5 times less score. That's kinda unfair even if you take combo off the equation.He Ang Erika wrote:
Firstly I don't understand what you meant by "changing map score that isn't defined until the end", my intent is to precisely tell that we should modifyr the score after the map is already over, could you re-phrase your point?tfg50 wrote:
No... just no....
Giving a bonus for a SS is stupid and a changing map score that isn't defined until the end is also kinda unnecessary.
That also doesn't take combo into account and the drop from low acc is too huge. A 80% score fc would mean nothing, you could get a 99% with tons of misses and you would get a score that's over 70 times bigger than the 80% fc (that's an extreme case that is not likely to happen but still...)
Secondly 80% accuracy in Standard is actually pretty bad :C And in all honesty especially in a tournament scenario if one's accuracy falls below 95% I can simply conclude generally that he/she is either not skilled enough at that stage or not able to practise the map diligently, and thus shall not rightfully emerge victorious. That's the philosophical cornerstone of the concept of competition in the first place.
Thirly Osu! as a rhythm game, where the rhythm element is measured by rate of accuracy and the game element is measured by proficiency in movement/reaction (AKA get combo), it makes little sense to weigh one above another, therefore I see the validity in the managements' decision to pull up the importance of accuracy even though players are used to being obsessed with combos and are reluctant to accept this change however reasonable.
Last but not least back to my own point in my previous post, I would like to clarify once more that I've stated CLEARLY in bold that all numerical values and functions are just EXAMPLES for illustration purposes only, to help readers understand through usage of analogies about how a score formular helps to balance out the issues with combo and accuracy, and how the multipliers and exponents stated above are NOT FINALISED or NON-NEGOTIABLE or even necessary in the first place My intent is to present the idea of formulars, not to get nitty-gritty with the technicality of the values involved. If you wish to argue that formulars are bad ideas, please stay on point on why formulars are bad. Anyway just to add on, everything in Osu! is pretty much calculated by formulars, like scores, accuracy, pp, even the basic model of 50% acc 50% combo is also a formular, but just too simplistic in my opinion to work fairly, which is why I suggested a more complex formular. To me there are only 2 ways to go about this: One is to stick with the old model of score wins and score only, or two get a good enough formular that makes thing fair and fun for the most, it's really that simple D:
As I mentioned in my post, I haven't been around osu! long but I've been involved with rhythm games for 12 years. I've been staff for 5 years on another rhythm game site and have a good working knowledge on what's necessary when it comes to these things. High level player doesn't = good commentator and not so good player doesn't = bad commentator. I just think the mentality a lot of people here have of the person having to be a good player to be a good commentator isn't a good one to have. If the person has a good personality and knows the mechanics of the game they can likely commentate it fine. You also can't throw too many people into it otherwise it's hard for people to talk, you end up tripping on one another.Evrien wrote:
I understand where you are coming from, but you don't seem to have been around much. The reason why many of the players you see here raising this issue in this thread is because they feel that there are players who can be BOTH high ranked AND charismatic/caster-capable enough to man the position. And these top players who run streams on Twitch on a regular basis (loliforz, Azer, HappyStick, Doomsday, Tokichii, Jesus1412, list goes on) are used to talking in front of hundreds and we thus have valid reasons to trust that they have the skills.
We do not in any way say that the official casters are inferior - this is a qualitative statement that we can't prove statistically. We are merely saying that other people are just as ready able and willing, and there should be a window through which they can posit themselves forward - that is, if Loctav is considering this already and if so I rest my case.
AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
The thing is though I can hardly imagine a game where deadbeat, Tasha, and ztrot aren't commentatingYeah, deadbeat is my favourite
I'm sure having these people is what everyone is talking aboutLoctav wrote:
Sure there needs to be one or two person who actually can play the maps for example. To transmit the true feeling of the picked maps. Or to transmit the feeling during the matches. But that's about it.
While this is true, someone under 10k couldn't talk about how difficult hitting a certain pattern out of their skill range is. What is insanely difficult to them may be manageable or even easy to someone of a higher rank. On the same note, they couldn't talk about the stress or worries while being in a tournament like the OWC as they have never experienced it.Loctav wrote:
It is weird for me to see that you think they all have no game experience. They might not be in the top ranks, but you don't need to be there to understand this game. Don't make it look like osu! is wicked rocket science. Sure there are things that require some sort of knowledge, but you don't need to be a top player to understand what is going on always. After all, it's clicking circles.
Loctav wrote:
Sure there needs to be one or two person who actually can play the maps for example. To transmit the true feeling of the picked maps. Or to transmit the feeling during the matches. But that's about it.
that hit exactly on the point, and i do really like fartowniks suggestion, since it is widely common to pair a hype caster with an insight caster. Or even having a third person that can give an insight of the match on the scorescreen, talking about what went wrong, plays that stood out etcLoctav wrote:
Sure there needs to be one or two person who actually can play the maps for example. To transmit the true feeling of the picked maps. Or to transmit the feeling during the matches. But that's about it.
I've played in three different world cups for taiko. We placed 4th in 2013, were disqualified due to absent players in 2014 in bracket stage, and ended 7/8th in 2015. I am FULLY aware of the stress players are under in a world cup match. Are you?Minifrij wrote:
On the same note, they couldn't talk about the stress or worries while being in a tournament like the OWC as they have never experienced it.