thanks dom!!

Hello, IRC mod


pekny

Lethargy wrote:

pekny

Dík moc. c:

Hi for the M4M :V


Good luck!

@Side - Thank you for mod. Fixed some things you mentioned.

M4M request


[General]

[Storyboard]

[Advanced]

[Goodbye]

Other than fixing the storyboard, adjusting the pacing on Advanced, and adding general polish, the map is looking good. I think it deserves a star.


EDIT: Apparently all my stars somehow added to your map. This happened before. This is getting ridiculous.

[Goodbye]
00:44:373 (8) - look, this sound destination not 00:44:373, it's 00:44:326 - that's must be on the 1/3. try to replace 7 and 8 to slider
00:46:088 (5) - and here too ^
01:13:662 (4,5) - add DS here, I think, it would be better to emphasize strong beat
01:45:951 (5,6,7) - it's hard to read triplet, that's stands on the previous object, try to move it, or change it to reverse slider, also, place NC at 7
02:10:239 (1,3) - stack it better
03:15:102 (6,7,8) - this objects must be placed little earlier, just listen. Also, NC at 8

[Advanced]
01:03:375 (2) - what about Crtl-H ?
03:15:102 - as I said above. Idk what to here, soz.

Good luck with your rank c:

@Shadren: Fixed literally everything, Thank you.
@Darcsol: Fixed placement issues, didn't fix anything in SB & sliders. Thank you.

That was fast LOL

We fixed storyboard (wrong resolutions, uncut transparency, objects rendering out of screen)
Then we fixed some hitsounds issues (length and delay) and removed one unused file.

Cannot send log, because we mixed it with regular chatting and it was in Czech anyway.

We had some discussion about timing and fixed it with Sieg. Then we fixed problems related to timing like duplicate lines, wrong snapping etc.
There are some unsnapped inherited timing points but these are okay because they are not kiai and do not afflict gameplay in any way. Also way too loud volume was fixed.

I want ByBy to recheck and rebubble the map, because kind of major things were changed.

02:39:960 (2) -

Sieg wrote:

02:39:960 (2) -

Should be fixed indeed.

Well I guess it's too late for me to mod it. Call me for anything then.

Sieg wrote:

02:39:960 (2) -

Fixed.

Metadata confirmation: http://www.explosionsinthesky.com/discography/4
Seems it should be Explosions in the Sky

ByBy13 wrote:

Metadata confirmation: http://www.explosionsinthesky.com/discography/4
Seems it should be Explosions in the Sky

Ah, alright, changed.

Qualified after some minor fixes (removing some inherited points and fixing some spacing on advanced)

01:38:256 (2) - Is okay! The 0.25x difference is here to compensate the SV change.

Goodbye.

now i'm crying ;_;.Congratz by the way

):

Goodbye Mortem..~ I hope you'll have a wonderful time, even after osu.
You know how to contact me, if you need someone.
Cya around <3 I know you can do it.

Good Bye, Mortem ;w;
we will miss you~~~
anyway gratzz for qualify~~~ (hope there's no DQ ;w;)

Meh...

Can someone explain what happened here? Did this guy really speedrank an (average) map then get himself banned? What if he needs to make changes? He obviously didn't think this through, in which case I hope something happens.

Lach wrote:

Can someone explain what happened here? Did this guy really speedrank an (average) map then get himself banned? What if he needs to make changes? He obviously didn't think this through, in which case I hope something happens.

Yeah, I see multiple concerns in terms of quality here, a few of which are:

1. Why is the map completely void of audible hitsounding (except for the ending, I guess?) when the song offers plenty of opportunities for soft whistles and volume balancing?
2. Clicking rhythm is inconsistent (sliders are no adequate replacement for multiple clicks, they're just clicked once)
3. Stacks on what is supposed to be a pressured beat in the song.
4. Why a spinner on a fade-out? Doesn't exactly seem like the most fitting thing to spin at your maximum speed when the song is ending and getting progressively more quiet.

Jenny wrote:

Yeah, I see multiple concerns in terms of quality here, a few of which are:

1. Why is the map completely void of audible hitsounding (except for the ending, I guess?) when the song offers plenty of opportunities for soft whistles and volume balancing?
2. Clicking rhythm is inconsistent (sliders are no adequate replacement for multiple clicks, they're just clicked once)
3. Stacks on what is supposed to be a pressured beat in the song.
4. Why a spinner on a fade-out? Doesn't exactly seem like the most fitting thing to spin at your maximum speed when the song is ending and getting progressively more quiet.

Let me get into this a little. I can agree with first point, there were more opportunities for hitsounding and variable volume, but hitsounds are still possible to hear, tho they don't stand out that much, but that depends on whether mapper likes to make hitsounds stand out or just let it blend with music. So I agree there was opportunity for better hitsounding, but more like 3/4 of maps have simple or even poor hitsounding, so I don't see a reason why this should be explicitly unrankable.

Spinner on fade-out was always common practice and is better than mapping it in a regular part. You are not forced to spin at your maximum speed, that depends on your gameplay.

Stacks and picking circles or sliders is mostly very subjective and more like changing mapper's style to yours, moreover, higher count of sliders was quite required here to provide more sensible spread.

Wafu wrote:

Let me get into this a little. I can agree with first point, there were more opportunities for hitsounding and variable volume, but hitsounds are still possible to hear, tho they don't stand out that much, but that depends on whether mapper likes to make hitsounds stand out or just let it blend with music. So I agree there was opportunity for better hitsounding, but more like 3/4 of maps have simple or even poor hitsounding, so I don't see a reason why this should be explicitly unrankable.

Other maps being bad is no justification to not encourage further polishing and raising overall quality.
Just because I can't post into every map's thread doesn't mean I see this as "especially bad" or "worse than others", but it is simply insufficient.
No comparisons made to other maps, and frankly, every map should be able to stand for itself.

Wafu wrote:

Spinner on fade-out was always common practice and is better than mapping it in a regular part. You are not forced to spin at your maximum speed, that depends on your gameplay.

Again, "common practice" is not an excuse.
Any player that actually plays to get a decent score on a map will be spinning at a reasonably high speed - that is what the gameplay encourages and demands of the player, and that is what needs to be used as a base assumption for the object placed.
Now, if the start of the spinner was especially strong, and it was just elongated as it tapered off, that'd be okay, but this is purely a fade-out with no strong parts to it.

Wafu wrote:

Stacks and picking circles or sliders is mostly very subjective and more like changing mapper's style to yours, moreover, higher count of sliders was quite required here to provide more sensible spread.

Neglecting key beats is not a style, and being inconsistent in your clicking rhythm in a way that doesn't feature the song isn't either - that is a technical flaw.
There are different ways to implement certain rhythms, but I see no systematic progression here.




And just to get this clear: the qualified section is in place to improve maps within it, and disqualifications are not supposed to be only about strictly unrankable issues - in fact, we as players and modders are encouraged to still leave feedback and concerns while the map is in said state, so I do not see why one wouldn't insist for maps to be improved further when they are still in qualified state, and valid concerns are brought up.

Beatmap Listing, Qualified Section wrote:

They are in "qualified" status for up to one week.
During this week, there is a high chance they will return to pending if an issue is found.

This category is recommended for people who:
Want to play cutting-edge maps.
Want to help keep map quality top-notch! (make sure to leave your feedback)

So we should just keep whole map consistent when picking circles and sliders so there is no variety especially when the rhythm is repetitive and literally force people to quit playing the map?

"Neglecting key beats" - If we talk about kiai, emphasis on all sounds was completely fine. If we talk about part pre-kiai, guitar sounds seem like being the "background" and the emphasized instrument is a piano where the heaviest piano sounds were clickable and those less significant could be end of slider or anything else, even if they were, it is not explicitly required for every sound "louder than this sound" to be clickable. Also classifying piano as "beat" or guitar as "key beat" is quite weird in musical terms.

Jenny wrote:

every map should be able to stand for itself

Obviously, but every map should be judged under the same circumstances, that's why referring to other beatmaps is not wrong in this case. RC doesn't determine what is quality and how high it should be - nominators mostly get known to this by seeing what actually is passing through the qualified section. If we were about qualifying only the best hitsounds, best placement, best slider/circle choice, and forbidding spinner on fade-off would just result in no maps being qualified, because there are are no 100% perfect maps.

Also, if you consider tryhards as apologize for "the spinner on fade-off is bad" tho it is on long sound but w/e, consider a difference between game and competition. If you play a game for fun (yeah, that's what games were supposed to), you would not mind playing the spinner and would play it in the way you feel is comfortable for you. If you play for rank, you may complain about spinner being too long or you having to spin at maximum speed while the music is fading off. This logic would basically eliminate spinners from low BPM maps, because tryhards would play it as quickly as possible, but that's insensible to haste on 60BPM map, so remove the spinners... that's the exactly the same case.

so I do not see why one wouldn't insist for maps to be improved further when they are still in qualified state, and valid concerns are brought up.

Obviously you can give a feedback, do what you want, but I didn't see any sense or any valid reason in them, so I just wanted to say why it isn't much important to shut down a map from mapper that is banned just for subjective opinion. For more discussion, it would be nice if you argued with me in-game so we don't make a spamstorm here.

Also classifying piano as "beat" or guitar as "key beat" is quite weird in musical terms.

I didn't equate either of these to a specific instrument. A "key beat" to me is a beat that is most apparent, in the foreground of the song, usually loudest at the given time and intended to be drawing in the focus and attention of the listener.

Wafu wrote:

So we should just keep whole map consistent when picking circles and sliders so there is no variety especially when the rhythm is repetitive and literally force people to quit playing the map?

I didn't say that, and there is no reason to be overdramatic here or to put words into somebody else's mouth.


If you want examples for improper beat delivery, I can give you some:

00:46:512 (7) - sliders like this one, which end on a stronger beat than they start on; it ends on the guitar, which is the only thing going on at that time, and starts on.. just about nothing. reference material here
00:47:083 (8) - this slider turns three piano notes into one click, and 1/2 hold. there is only one player input here, and it is on the first beat, while in fact, the third beat (on the white tick) is the strongest.
00:50:511 (8,9,10) - ^this is literally the same situation, yet this time the mapper used three circles, that's just inconsistent.
00:52:226 (2) - reoccurance of 00:46:512
00:53:945 (6) - reoccurance 00:47:083
01:07:388 (6) - same principle; the slider's end covers what is a foreground beat on the white tick, where usually the mapper started a new slider, or just had a click in general - that is not the case here, and there is no apparent explanation as to why, except for "trying to change it up", when the song is not calling for it.
01:11:963 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - this entire part is patterned in pairs of two in the song, restarting on every white tick, yet the mapper chose to start 3 on a red tick, therefore breaking with the song's pair patterning for what I presume to be "variation's sake", and again, the song does not call for it - similarly, 5's end covers the start of another pair, taking away another foreground beat from the gameplay



You get the idea. Main layer notes being covered by what is not a clicked part of an object, inconsistent clicking rhythm when nothing is changing etc etc - it's not like variation is a bad thing, but it needs to be implemented and thought through properly, and systematically.

Say you have a part of the song, 32/1 in length, that is just repetitions every 4/1 - you can vary up the way you interpret the rhythm every, say, 8/1 or 16/1; that gives the player time to adjust to each repetition's intricacies and lets them see what you are trying to do. Changing it every single reoccurance, and only very slightly at that (say, using one slider instead of 3 circles), is just plain inconsistent as opposed to integrating new ideas and interpretations.

Jenny wrote:

If you want examples for improper beat delivery, I can give you some:

00:46:512 (7) - sliders like this one, which end on a stronger beat than they start on; it ends on the guitar, which is the only thing going on at that time, and starts on.. just about nothing. reference material here Well, I can admit it ends on harder sound, but he didn't emphasize guitar at all in the rest of map. Also there is a sound on the start, tho it's minor, but there is.
00:47:083 (8) - this slider turns three piano notes into one click, and 1/2 hold. there is only one player input here, and it is on the first beat, while in fact, the third beat (on the white tick) is the strongest. Nothing wrong about it, the white tick is same intensity as red tick in this case white tick is not always the one which must be clicked.
00:50:511 (8,9,10) - ^this is literally the same situation, yet this time the mapper used three circles, that's just inconsistent. No reason why variety cannot be there. You are forcing just the way YOU would probably map it but mapper not.
00:52:226 (2) - reoccurance of 00:46:512
00:53:945 (6) - reoccurance 00:47:083
01:07:388 (6) - same principle; the slider's end covers what is a foreground beat on the white tick, where usually the mapper started a new slider, or just had a click in general - that is not the case here, and there is no apparent explanation as to why, except for "trying to change it up", when the song is not calling for it. The last sound on slider seems to not be as loud as the first one. I even feel it is less intense, but just does have higher frequency, that's all.
01:11:963 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - this entire part is patterned in pairs of two in the song, restarting on every white tick, yet the mapper chose to start 3 on a red tick, therefore breaking with the song's pair patterning for what I presume to be "variation's sake", and again, the song does not call for it - similarly, 5's end covers the start of another pair, taking away another foreground beat from the gameplay Well, I can agree the circle here didn't fit perfectly.

I am not saying your opinion is wrong, but I feel like you want to bring your style to other maps and blame it on actual quality. Do what you want, try to get this unranked and grave it, do just anything you want I am not eligible to limit you in any way, I just wanted to say why did I ignore these things. I actually can agree with the circle which didn't fit the best to the rhythm and I would probably point it out if I realized it sounded bad, but that's just all I will admit at current point.

Ouch.

Sorry Mortem, if you're reading this.

We all know this map was speedranked in order to get it out there for his friends as a way
for him to say goodbye, to end his osu-life.
It was supported by his (close) friends.

Is that an excuse for the lack in quality? Of course not. And personally, I wouldn't
have ranked it, since it wouldn't add anything to the messege that he wanted to convey anyways.

Jenny is right about every single point he made about the map. Wafu, I know it sucks, and I
feel it too as a friend of his, but this map lacks quality in a technical stand-point. We can all argue
about Mortem and how much it means to him, and how a DQ would suck but at the end of the day,
this map is judged by an objective standard in mapping quality (and yes we all know that this is arguable)
which frankly dosn't own anyone anything and will therefore DQ this regularly like all other maps, if it needs
to be.

I personally enjoyed playing the map. It's nothing special in quality terms, neither a total disaster,
but it was fun, at least in my eyes.

I don't hold onto the thought that if this gets DQ'd that it'd be any less worth because its not.
Mortem made this map as a final act to say goodbye and I think he succeed. Whatever happens next with this
map shouldn't matter to his friends, and especially shouldn't matter to any outsider to this situation.

Howdy!

In accordance with what Jenny has posted above, I do believe that this mapset can be improved - lets not rush things now and see if we can work together to bring the quality up a notch!


While a mostly clean map, I believe (and I see that others do as well, please notice their points listed) that these kinks can be smoothened out. Apply these points and the critiques of others to help clean the mapset up. Please continue to mod/critique this map which it is disqualified even though the mapper is absent. If s/he ever returns, it will be waiting for them.

I can agree that some rhytmical stuff could be improved. Consistency is imo not real requirement of quality and I think using 1/4 sliders with repeat was fine for variety as the song is very repetitive. Hitsounds could have been a little more emphasizing, tho I felt the piano/guitar part didn't need that much, well, requirements on hitsounding probably changed, but whatever.

Snaggle: Now I feel like you consider it to be only emotional and thus my opinion meant nothing.

Anyway, I dunno whether more modding is needed, would be waste of time if we consider Mortem is banned.
Something went wrong? It is still visible in Qualified section.

Wafu wrote:

I can agree that some rhytmical stuff could be improved. Consistency is imo not real requirement of quality and I think using 1/4 sliders with repeat was fine for variety as the song is very repetitive. Hitsounds could have been a little more emphasizing, tho I felt the piano/guitar part didn't need that much, well, requirements on hitsounding probably changed, but whatever.

Snaggle: Now I feel like you consider it to be only emotional and thus my opinion meant nothing.

Anyway, I dunno whether more modding is needed, would be waste of time if we consider Mortem is banned.
Something went wrong? It is still visible in Qualified section.

He can always hack osu!'s mainframe and bring his account back to life

I already told him, I don't understand why he didn't wait at least until the map gets ranked, or something. Not sure if the map can get requalified now...

Anyways, I still don't know why he got banned, I know why he wanted to quit but... banned? lol

Wafu wrote:

Snaggle: Now I feel like you consider it to be only emotional and thus my opinion meant nothing.

No I read your statements and Jennys statements and I thought Jenny was right on a lot of things.
This map isn't bad, but it's definitly not as good as it could have been which is why it most likely got
DQ'd. I enjoy playing it, I really do but objectively speaking it is nothing special.

And being emotional isn't automatically a bad thing. I think its really great that you fight
for mortem in this way which is why it hurts me to take Jennys stand-point. I dislike Jenny.
I really like Mortem and you, but the cold and hard truth has been said and there isn't
much we can do about it either. I still stand by my point that to me, as his friend, it dosn't
matter wether or not this map is ranked since I understand why he made it and I am still
glad that I was able to be a part of his osu-life.

And since this was DQ'd now, it's most likely going to be DQ'd for good, since this is
what mortem told me if that happens.

Yup, I agree the DQ is not unfair in any way (apart from the inability to revive the map), but the "Jenny is right about every single point he made about the map." was quite like: "Nobody cares about your opinion." My opinion was that what matters is how the map fits for regular players, not for tryhards who will "spin as much as they can on fade-off part", what matters about those spinners is whether they fit to the song, long sound is in the song - spinner does have loop sound -> spinner musically fits the part, that some people will break their hand while spinning for rank is a different problem. In such case, we should consider everything what would not feel well for tryhards, which is wrong, because that would force people to actually map so the map is perfect on all game modes like taiko, o!m, CtB, but also that it would have to play well on HD/DT/FL/HR and others, because that is considering what people MAY do if they want to climb, but not what people actually need to do to enjoy game, which is the important point. I've given this opinion previously, tho it was more like tl;dr of this, but nobody had enough strong argument to tell me I was wrong, yet the "jenny was right about every single point" felt like it was not even considered, only thing Jenny's argument was about is: "Players may spin very quickly so why is there spinner on fade-off?", but Jenny put her guide, which said exactly the same, but just because it is a "guide", it is so professional and no counter-arguments would not matter at all. I just felt like being ignored because you said she was right about everything. That's maybe my personal feeling, but from the way you've given your feedback, it seemed like you ignored it, don't worry about it.

Anyway I think this is my final word, there's nothing to talk about as we cannot do anything with the map anymore.