monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.

In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition

Kert wrote:

That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition

Whose definition? He even gave his reasons for them and you just basically said "no that's wrong".

Sometimes I want to map the 1/4's without actually requiring players to play them. I already mentioned the stream/kickslider usage.

Kick-sliders are also great ways to create emphasis onto notes outside of the usual "jump"/flow-break/antijump techniques.

"Sliders are supposed to be held by definition." No, sliders are supposed to slide by definition. You just happen to be able to slide a kickslider simply by clicking on it because of its short length plus the large area covered by the slider-ball (which is twice the size of the slider-head). The mechanics of a slider are retained, even though you may think they play differently because they aren't held.

My two cents anyways.

When to use short sliders and when not to is mostly up to the mapper, what they want to achieve, the song, and their preference.



if we imagine that these 9 beats all has a drumbeat, where the 1st, 5th and 9th notes have a stronger drum sound than the others.
Depending on the song, a lot of different scenarios might fit well in context of the map. To name a few:







Of course, some of these might fit in other mapping styles as well, so for example a map mostly focusing on jumps might still just use a regular compact stream, because it fits within the context of the map, or using only sliders might work well if there are drums in the background of a vocal, and you want to follow both at the same time, etc. The use of hitsounds for emphasis also makes it something passive, while using sliders to create more lenient jumps makes it an active way for a player to feel a more powerful beat.

Adding this as a rule would make case 2, 4 and 5 unrankable, and this is in only one scenario where the stronger beats are on the white ticks. There's also when a mapper uses a 1/2 slider to follow drumbeats where the first one is stronger than the second, or using 3/4 sliders + note to essentially mimic a slider where you have to hit both the head and tail of it (because of a held note where beginning and end are equally powerful). While I know you only talk about short sliders, I don't think it would make much sense to limit it only to short sliders. Sliders are still something you hold and slide, no matter how long they are, so if this affects drums in 1/4, they should affect 1/2, 1/1, 2/1 etc, which will create problems for easier difficulties as well. There's also a bunch of 1/3 songs which would be very difficult to map properly. And you'd have to define "short slider". 1/2 sliders at very high bpms? Are they shortsliders? What about long 1/4 sliders in lowbpm maps?



So basically, no I don't think sliders in general should be limited at all in this way. If someone as a mapper dislike using shortsliders, they may just use any other technique to follow the song instead. Then that's their interpretation of the song, and how to put emphasis on the right places. If someone as a player don't like them, then all they have to do is to not play them. If a player dislikes jumps, they go and find non-jumpy maps. Similarily, a player who dislikes shortsliders like these should find maps that don't include them.

While there indeed are a lot of maps mapped these days that use short sliders in a lot of different ways (or maybe just because they want variety in their map), doesn't mean people stopped using other options. Limiting this also won't necessarily mean that the players get more maps, or better maps with other techniques. I don't see any benefit to the community as a whole by "banning" these.

Just random numbers pulled from thin air, but let's say the current mappool of ranked maps have 80% of the maps with shortsliders, and 20% without. With this rule, we get 0% with shortsliders and 100% without. We just removed one option from every player in the game, just to cather to the playerbase that prefers the maps without them, even though they already have maps to play. Also, since these are a trend, the majority of the playerbase most likely like them or don't mind them, so you would essentially only help a minority that already has what they like, but only wants more of it, denying other players what they like completely.

tl;dr: Adding this as a rule would be dumb. Why dumb? read above.

The wording may be off, I am not a writer.
But there are still some people who understood what I mean, maybe together we can come up with a better definition?
I personally really dislike (1) and (2) from your examples and think that it goes on par with "overmapping", though this rule is supposed to address (2)
I'll add something later, if I think of a better way of describing the exact patterns

lol no
wayyyyy too limiting
and a guideline would also be pointless cuz lets be homest. who follows those right? pfft

how does it go on par with overmapping, cxu said all 9 notes expressed have drum beats. if there's a beat to be followed in the music amd there's a note on it, then it's not overmapped. pretty simple stuff. stop trying to force other people to map the way you want them to

you just flat out said "i don't like (2) so that's why i want to get rid of it." how about you stop being elitist and realize the world doesn't revolve around what you want

Kert wrote:

monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.

In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition

Uwot

streams with kicksliders are like the best patterns in the game. Really satisfying to play and makes for more creative patterns than just a stream.

EDIT: They have to be used properly though. I generally only use a sliders mid stream to enhance a strong note or a shift in the music or what it may be.

Kibbleru wrote:

lol no
wayyyyy too limiting
and a guideline would also be pointless cuz lets be homest. who follows those right? pfft

captin1 wrote:

there's enough rules as is, don't need to restrict things further for no reason other than someone's opinion

there should not ever be a "this is the way you should map this because it's right" because you're not right, nobody is right. it's up to how the mapper wishes to interpret the song.

I agree ;=;

I'd also go with captin and CXu here. There are mappers that really like this technique and there are some that dont. If you're one that doesnt like that, just dont include it into your maps. Just because you dislike a thing doesnt mean that it shouldnt be rankable.

Everything else has been said already.

dis rool iz dum xd

kepe shiet az iz

Please, the most interesting and fun maps to be played around have that pattern you "hate".
It looks like just a personal ranting in my opinion.

Back to the discussion: Using short sliders even where there is a stream like CXu pointed out is a personal matter. I bet you do not map all those beats on lower diffs right? Same applies here: if the mapper wants to skip that beat, leave him be, as long as he does it in a proper/playable way.
Or we can go back to using flat deathstreams everywhere like in 2010 or even before that.

Stop imposing and have fun mapping, goddammit.
Imo all the rules we need are already there in the RC, and above all, why pointing this out right now after all the time this pattern has been around...

I don't know if it has already been said but.
I think there should be a guideline concerning short sliders, especially those that gives you 100 easily, for example this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83310 (Rin's diff). The very short sliders at the beginning were a little difficult to hit accurately. If you just hit a few ms later (and sometimes earlier), you literally get a 100.
Just write something to encourage mappers to not use this "technique" with a guideline.

Also, sometimes auto can't SS because of kick sliders with 1/8 or 1/12 and a small gap between the kick slider and the next object. It's just because physically, the slider is too small and you need to increase the SV in order to avoid a 100 by Auto. There should be something like this too in guidelines, like "Make sure Auto can SS your map, if it gets 100 because of little kick sliders, their velocity should be increased..."

No one would follow guidelines that's the point.
How about you all stop with personal attacks? You saying it's only my opinion doesn't make this more valid.
And it IS overmapping, just to a smaller extent. How about emphasizing every beat and put 1/16 sliders instead of all objects?
Mapper: "It looks cool! Such epicness!"
And then the players get sliderbreaks and confusion because of this "art" that makes the map less playable...
Cherry Blossom made a good example of what should be discouraged.
Why haven't this brought up earlier? God knows. Maybe it wasn't that popular back then?

you having an opinion on this: totally fine, nothing wrong with that
you having an opinion on this and trying to make it so nobody else can do it: not okay at all

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding

Kert wrote:

monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.

In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition

1/4 slider is NOT the same as a simple 1/2 circle, and lets be honest here. 1/4 sliders give an entirely different effect when compared to 1/2 circles, well obviously, because they are 1/4s. 1/4 sliders are MEANT to be used in 1/4 sections.

Kert wrote:

No one would follow guidelines that's the point.
How about you all stop with personal attacks? You saying it's only my opinion doesn't make this more valid.
And it IS overmapping, just to a smaller extent. How about emphasizing every beat and put 1/16 sliders instead of all objects?
Mapper: "It looks cool! Such epicness!"
And then the players get sliderbreaks and confusion because of this "art" that makes the map less playable...
Cherry Blossom made a good example of what should be discouraged.
Why haven't this brought up earlier? God knows. Maybe it wasn't that popular back then?

no one is going to put all 1/16 sliders lol (this is unrankable iirc) unless if youre willing to silence all the slider tails manually, lol.

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing. I've seen it work really well on loads of maps, to which I even adopted that style myself. Using it I've made my personal favorite maps of my own, and according to every playtester.

I don't see a point in ruling it out tbh. If it's overmapping used well I'm all for it.

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding

It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.

Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?

Kert wrote:

You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?

You could always half/double/triple/quadruple/etc the BPM of the song too, in case you want 1/2, 1/1, 2/1, 4/1 or x/1 to be excessive too.

Usually it's like this: 1/1 is the basic beat, 1/2 is what we see as the basic playing beat (Singletaps). 1/4 are Streams to us (fast consecutive beats), 1/8 are "really fast Streams" (not many music genres use 1/8, so it's not used very often) and 1/16 are for shitmaps.

So basically;
1/1 is common
1/2 is common
1/4 is pretty common
1/8 is uncommon, is restricted to some music genres
1/16 is uncommon

I'd assume that this is why we're allowing up to 1/8 if the music allows for it. If it doesnt fit, then we're not using it. That's just how songs work (I guess).
Does that somewhat explain my thought? x:

After all, if you think that 1/4 is excessive - Dont use it. Nobody is forcing you to map that way - but neither should you try to disallow others to use what they'd like to use.

Kert wrote:

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding

It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.

Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?

What I meant about letting the ranking process handle it is to let the people in charge of ranking maps decide if it fits or not.
I didn't say 1/16 is bad, but in gameplay it makes the windows for hitting/releasing it correct extremely small. On the other hand, 1/8 is pretty easy to get right, and what I'm talking about is 1/8 kicksliders, where they don't repeat.

Regardless of my preferences, it all comes down to how it plays. If it's for example a low bpm map, 1/16 could be used as a 1/8 slider would on a faster map if the song allows for such patterns. Now you might say songs don't allow that, and that it's overmapping, but it's basically a subjective thing from both your and my side, and if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
I consider mapping an artform because of how diverse and unique it can be from person to person. It's for everyone to express their feelings onto a song and at the same time make it play nice.

ur sounding like ur forcing others to do stuff, which is why ur getting all this hate

other than that i also agree with captin

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.

The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so

From our conversations in-game, I still have a hard time grasping exactly what or why you dislike some of these patterns, when they're okay and when they're not, according to you. Why not post a few ranked maps with examples of both "good" and "bad" usage of this, explain thoroughly why something works or doesn't work in your opinion?

Would make it easier for people to understand (since obviously you're not trying to ban all usage of shortsliders, so us coming with examples/scenarios where they work well won't really help). If people agree, pinpointing exactly what you want to address will also make it much easier to formulate a rule/guideline that actually does what you want to.

Kert wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.

The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so

There are special cases yes, but compare the number of special cases to cases where these kick sliders have no disruption to gameplay. I don't have any hard numbers but I can imagine the ratio being very much in favor of the latter. Of course, it also depends on what people consider are "kicksliders that disrupt gameplay" but the subjectivity of this statement already makes calling it a rule a horrible idea. Rules have to be objective.

Even as a guideline I can't see the rule being very useful in the modding process. People aren't going to follow this guideline not because they don't have to, but because this technique isn't even considered disruptive. There are special cases, and thats where the modding process takes place. Modding is there to clean up the subjective issues that rules cannot cover. Things like this should be considered on a case-by-case basis and the modding process allows for that to happen.

Kert wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.

The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so

Then guidelines shouldn't be enforced if the mapper knows what he's doing. If you had this rule banning this way of mapping, said mappers wouldn't even be able to produce it. After all, if it disrupts gameplay BN's/QAT will get on it. If nobody thinks it does disrupt gameplay but you still do... well maybe the problem lies with you then? I still think having this as a rule would cause more harm than good.


Also what makes mapping that different from painting? You can create pretty much any shape in every angle and direction over a canvas. Imo it trancends painting due to how it compliments a song at the same time, and how patterns flow together. Games are art too you know.

what you are saying mostly gets filtered out by the ranking process itself.
theres no real need for the rule

get gud lolz



legit just needs playing skill the patterns r easy shit idk wot ur on

its not ovemapped for any map I've seen

when using kicksliders in the stream when there's a kick or snare the tail end is mapped to the release of the sound while the head is mapped to its transient

for arpeggios the head is mapped to the stronger/higher pitch sound while the end is mapped to the weaker or lower pitch like in claoimh or the pretender


ok

You really can't put something absolute on something so open to interpretation. Unless you can offer a concrete example where this will always be bad, using this as a basis for a hard rule will not work.

Also my head hurt after trying to read the previous post. Yowza

better to handle such things with modding\qualifying process i.e. case by case

Some examples where this interferes gameplay and is basically bad

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/391228
00:41:383 (6) - http://puu.sh/koPA6/3269df2717.jpg
00:55:328 (2,3) - http://puu.sh/koPF2/8d184182c8.jpg

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/495633
02:18:234 (4,5) - , 00:57:392 (5,6) - They are even hitsounded as if they are circles?
03:43:339 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - Partly silenced sliders everything mixed

Comparing to other sliders it's like... On normal sliders you click at the head and unclick at the tail and this is pretty synchronized to hitsounds
As far as I understood you're supposed to click this short as a circle so ... this leads to unclicking being before the slider actually ends -> you get a hitsound even when you actually didn't do anything at that point. It's very misleading
I'd compare this to clap hitsounds put on sliderticks (don't know if it's allowed now)

Kert wrote:

Comparing to other sliders it's like... On normal sliders you click at the head and unclick at the tail and this is pretty synchronized to hitsounds
As far as I understood you're supposed to click this short as a circle so ... this leads to unclicking being before the slider actually ends -> you get a hitsound even when you actually didn't do anything at that point. It's very misleading
I'd compare this to clap hitsounds put on sliderticks (don't know if it's allowed now)

I have to disagree with the examples you provided. They don't interfere with gameplay for me. What you are bringing up are just subjective gameplay elements that you think are "basically bad" but they may play fine or are even very enjoyable to others. You can't just list examples and say they will "always be bad" because labelling something as "good or bad" is assigning your opinionated and subjective quality onto them. They play bad to you, that doesn't mean they play bad to everyone, therefore you can't create an objective rule to define something that is subjective.

Your point about hit-sounding on kick-slider ends is interesting though. I can agree that clicking and immediately releasing is how many kicksliders are meant to be played. However, if the slider-end is hitsounded, players will indeed hear a hitsound that they did not actively play. I can see it being misleading in some scenarios where 1/4's are not present because that would technically be an overmap as the slider-end follows nothing, (but then those slider-ends shouldn't be hitsounded to begin with (imo) so those situations would feel more like a mistake and/or oversight during the modding process). Hit-sounding the slider-ends during kickslider-substituted stream sections can be enjoyable though, and you still get to hear the hitsounds that follow the 1/4's without playing them.

In any case, you are trying to make a rule to objectively define something that is clearly subjective. This is the wrong approach. Make a modding queue: "Kert's Kick-slider Evaluation Queue."

i think how to use is crucial.
some of bad examples never means that a pattern is totally bad.
many guys who try that pattern without knowing 'how to use those properly' have made this situation imo.

i dunno hows this goin, i even did not read the whole thread so im not sure im posting right things on this thread.

my point is
instead of making an harsh rule which can affect to the mappers and their creativity directly, BNs and QATs being more strict to pass a map to ranked map slots can be one of the better ideas.
That also can make overall quality of the qualified-ranked-maps better.
imo.

.
- an opinion of the man who was just passin-by

Kert wrote:

Some examples where this interferes gameplay and is basically bad

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/391228
00:41:383 (6) - http://puu.sh/koPA6/3269df2717.jpg
00:55:328 (2,3) - http://puu.sh/koPF2/8d184182c8.jpg

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/495633
02:18:234 (4,5) - , 00:57:392 (5,6) - They are even hitsounded as if they are circles?
03:43:339 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - Partly silenced sliders everything mixed

Comparing to other sliders it's like... On normal sliders you click at the head and unclick at the tail and this is pretty synchronized to hitsounds
As far as I understood you're supposed to click this short as a circle so ... this leads to unclicking being before the slider actually ends -> you get a hitsound even when you actually didn't do anything at that point. It's very misleading
I'd compare this to clap hitsounds put on sliderticks (don't know if it's allowed now)

I mostly disagree with the examples youve given (besides the 3:43:339, as that feels somewhat weird indeed), since they're just a style thing. Some people prefer mapping a Kickslider instead of a triplet here and there, whether it be because the 2nd beat in the triplet isnt as strong as the 1st and 3rd, or to take some density out of the map. There are many reasons why someone would want to map x over y. "Bad patterns" are subjective.

Though, Im not sure on which side I'd want to be regarding the hitsound on the Slidertail. While I can see that having a louder hitsound on a non-existing blue tick doesnt make any sense, I'd also say that this really depends on the actual usage and map difficulty (For example, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/541990 is full of these kinds, yet, when playing, you dont really notice them. It just really fits to the map and there really isnt much to complain about (00:35:136 (2,3) - 00:36:492 (2) - ) Even though taking that map as example might be a bit extreme). There are times where I really want to map a Kickslider to add more movement into the pattern because it's the highlight of the song, even though there arent any "very noticable" beats on the blue ticks. It's just a feel thing to me.

And after all, I mean, yea, maybe tell the BNs to be a bit more strict about bad Kickslider usage, but I dont see the point why we're going back and forth with that "kicksliders are bad i dont like them pls ban" and "no they not why you say dat" and "because they bad" and "but they not" ... you get the point.

Kloyd wrote:

i think how to use is crucial.
many guys who try that pattern without knowing 'how to use those properly' have made this situation imo.

Yauxo wrote:

And after all, I mean, yea, maybe tell the BNs to be a bit more strict about bad Kickslider usage, but I dont see the point why we're going back and forth with that "kicksliders are bad i dont like them pls ban" and "no they not why you say dat" and "because they bad" and "but they not" ... you get the point.

There's just no open place for discussion afaik which can get enough attention on the problem
And yes I agree with both of you on this

Looks like we have found the crux. Using a rule proposition to try and shame BNs isn't really what this forum is for, sorry.