[New Rule] Short sliders and percussion beats

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Lumael

Kibbleru wrote:

lol no
wayyyyy too limiting
and a guideline would also be pointless cuz lets be homest. who follows those right? pfft

captin1 wrote:

there's enough rules as is, don't need to restrict things further for no reason other than someone's opinion

there should not ever be a "this is the way you should map this because it's right" because you're not right, nobody is right. it's up to how the mapper wishes to interpret the song.
I agree ;=;
Yauxo
I'd also go with captin and CXu here. There are mappers that really like this technique and there are some that dont. If you're one that doesnt like that, just dont include it into your maps. Just because you dislike a thing doesnt mean that it shouldnt be rankable.

Everything else has been said already.
Squigly
dis rool iz dum xd

kepe shiet az iz
Seijiro
Please, the most interesting and fun maps to be played around have that pattern you "hate".
It looks like just a personal ranting in my opinion.

Back to the discussion: Using short sliders even where there is a stream like CXu pointed out is a personal matter. I bet you do not map all those beats on lower diffs right? Same applies here: if the mapper wants to skip that beat, leave him be, as long as he does it in a proper/playable way.
Or we can go back to using flat deathstreams everywhere like in 2010 or even before that.

Stop imposing and have fun mapping, goddammit.
Imo all the rules we need are already there in the RC, and above all, why pointing this out right now after all the time this pattern has been around...
Cherry Blossom
I don't know if it has already been said but.
I think there should be a guideline concerning short sliders, especially those that gives you 100 easily, for example this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83310 (Rin's diff). The very short sliders at the beginning were a little difficult to hit accurately. If you just hit a few ms later (and sometimes earlier), you literally get a 100.
Just write something to encourage mappers to not use this "technique" with a guideline.

Also, sometimes auto can't SS because of kick sliders with 1/8 or 1/12 and a small gap between the kick slider and the next object. It's just because physically, the slider is too small and you need to increase the SV in order to avoid a 100 by Auto. There should be something like this too in guidelines, like "Make sure Auto can SS your map, if it gets 100 because of little kick sliders, their velocity should be increased..."
Topic Starter
Kert
No one would follow guidelines that's the point.
How about you all stop with personal attacks? You saying it's only my opinion doesn't make this more valid.
And it IS overmapping, just to a smaller extent. How about emphasizing every beat and put 1/16 sliders instead of all objects?
Mapper: "It looks cool! Such epicness!"
And then the players get sliderbreaks and confusion because of this "art" that makes the map less playable...
Cherry Blossom made a good example of what should be discouraged.
Why haven't this brought up earlier? God knows. Maybe it wasn't that popular back then?
captin1
you having an opinion on this: totally fine, nothing wrong with that
you having an opinion on this and trying to make it so nobody else can do it: not okay at all

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
byfar

Kert wrote:

monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.
In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition
1/4 slider is NOT the same as a simple 1/2 circle, and lets be honest here. 1/4 sliders give an entirely different effect when compared to 1/2 circles, well obviously, because they are 1/4s. 1/4 sliders are MEANT to be used in 1/4 sections.

Kert wrote:

No one would follow guidelines that's the point.
How about you all stop with personal attacks? You saying it's only my opinion doesn't make this more valid.
And it IS overmapping, just to a smaller extent. How about emphasizing every beat and put 1/16 sliders instead of all objects?
Mapper: "It looks cool! Such epicness!"
And then the players get sliderbreaks and confusion because of this "art" that makes the map less playable...
Cherry Blossom made a good example of what should be discouraged.
Why haven't this brought up earlier? God knows. Maybe it wasn't that popular back then?
no one is going to put all 1/16 sliders lol (this is unrankable iirc) unless if youre willing to silence all the slider tails manually, lol.
Liiraye
I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing. I've seen it work really well on loads of maps, to which I even adopted that style myself. Using it I've made my personal favorite maps of my own, and according to every playtester.

I don't see a point in ruling it out tbh. If it's overmapping used well I'm all for it.
Topic Starter
Kert

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.
Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
Yauxo

Kert wrote:

You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
You could always half/double/triple/quadruple/etc the BPM of the song too, in case you want 1/2, 1/1, 2/1, 4/1 or x/1 to be excessive too.

Usually it's like this: 1/1 is the basic beat, 1/2 is what we see as the basic playing beat (Singletaps). 1/4 are Streams to us (fast consecutive beats), 1/8 are "really fast Streams" (not many music genres use 1/8, so it's not used very often) and 1/16 are for shitmaps.

So basically;
1/1 is common
1/2 is common
1/4 is pretty common
1/8 is uncommon, is restricted to some music genres
1/16 is uncommon

I'd assume that this is why we're allowing up to 1/8 if the music allows for it. If it doesnt fit, then we're not using it. That's just how songs work (I guess).
Does that somewhat explain my thought? x:

After all, if you think that 1/4 is excessive - Dont use it. Nobody is forcing you to map that way - but neither should you try to disallow others to use what they'd like to use.
Liiraye

Kert wrote:

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.
Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
What I meant about letting the ranking process handle it is to let the people in charge of ranking maps decide if it fits or not.
I didn't say 1/16 is bad, but in gameplay it makes the windows for hitting/releasing it correct extremely small. On the other hand, 1/8 is pretty easy to get right, and what I'm talking about is 1/8 kicksliders, where they don't repeat.

Regardless of my preferences, it all comes down to how it plays. If it's for example a low bpm map, 1/16 could be used as a 1/8 slider would on a faster map if the song allows for such patterns. Now you might say songs don't allow that, and that it's overmapping, but it's basically a subjective thing from both your and my side, and if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
I consider mapping an artform because of how diverse and unique it can be from person to person. It's for everyone to express their feelings onto a song and at the same time make it play nice.
Kibbleru
ur sounding like ur forcing others to do stuff, which is why ur getting all this hate

other than that i also agree with captin
Topic Starter
Kert

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
CXu
From our conversations in-game, I still have a hard time grasping exactly what or why you dislike some of these patterns, when they're okay and when they're not, according to you. Why not post a few ranked maps with examples of both "good" and "bad" usage of this, explain thoroughly why something works or doesn't work in your opinion?

Would make it easier for people to understand (since obviously you're not trying to ban all usage of shortsliders, so us coming with examples/scenarios where they work well won't really help). If people agree, pinpointing exactly what you want to address will also make it much easier to formulate a rule/guideline that actually does what you want to.
Monstrata
:|

Kert wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
There are special cases yes, but compare the number of special cases to cases where these kick sliders have no disruption to gameplay. I don't have any hard numbers but I can imagine the ratio being very much in favor of the latter. Of course, it also depends on what people consider are "kicksliders that disrupt gameplay" but the subjectivity of this statement already makes calling it a rule a horrible idea. Rules have to be objective.

Even as a guideline I can't see the rule being very useful in the modding process. People aren't going to follow this guideline not because they don't have to, but because this technique isn't even considered disruptive. There are special cases, and thats where the modding process takes place. Modding is there to clean up the subjective issues that rules cannot cover. Things like this should be considered on a case-by-case basis and the modding process allows for that to happen.
Liiraye

Kert wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
Then guidelines shouldn't be enforced if the mapper knows what he's doing. If you had this rule banning this way of mapping, said mappers wouldn't even be able to produce it. After all, if it disrupts gameplay BN's/QAT will get on it. If nobody thinks it does disrupt gameplay but you still do... well maybe the problem lies with you then? I still think having this as a rule would cause more harm than good.


Also what makes mapping that different from painting? You can create pretty much any shape in every angle and direction over a canvas. Imo it trancends painting due to how it compliments a song at the same time, and how patterns flow together. Games are art too you know.
Kibbleru
what you are saying mostly gets filtered out by the ranking process itself.
theres no real need for the rule
VINXIS
get gud lolz



legit just needs playing skill the patterns r easy shit idk wot ur on

its not ovemapped for any map I've seen

when using kicksliders in the stream when there's a kick or snare the tail end is mapped to the release of the sound while the head is mapped to its transient

for arpeggios the head is mapped to the stronger/higher pitch sound while the end is mapped to the weaker or lower pitch like in claoimh or the pretender


ok
Garven
You really can't put something absolute on something so open to interpretation. Unless you can offer a concrete example where this will always be bad, using this as a basis for a hard rule will not work.

Also my head hurt after trying to read the previous post. Yowza
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