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posted
Sometimes I want to map the 1/4's without actually requiring players to play them. I already mentioned the stream/kickslider usage.

Kick-sliders are also great ways to create emphasis onto notes outside of the usual "jump"/flow-break/antijump techniques.

"Sliders are supposed to be held by definition." No, sliders are supposed to slide by definition. You just happen to be able to slide a kickslider simply by clicking on it because of its short length plus the large area covered by the slider-ball (which is twice the size of the slider-head). The mechanics of a slider are retained, even though you may think they play differently because they aren't held.

My two cents anyways.
posted
When to use short sliders and when not to is mostly up to the mapper, what they want to achieve, the song, and their preference.



if we imagine that these 9 beats all has a drumbeat, where the 1st, 5th and 9th notes have a stronger drum sound than the others.
Depending on the song, a lot of different scenarios might fit well in context of the map. To name a few:


If the overall difficulty of the mapset is high, or the mapset focuses on streams etc, this might be the best option to use, as you emphasize the stronger beats by adding a minijump between them.

As many probably know, streamjumps can be tricky to get right. If a mapper wants to emphasize the stronger drums by minijumps, but don't want to use streamjumps (maybe because they would be too difficult compared to the overall difficulty of the song), they may opt to use these instead.

Fairly straightforward. Map the drums with a stream, and put emphasis with hitsounds. It's easier or harder than the previous one depending on if the player can or can't stream comfortably at that bpm. If your map focuses solely on streaming, and not on jumping, this could be a good idea.

Uses a jump to put emphasis again. So this is similar to 2, except easier in terms of finger speed, but harder in terms of finger control and aim. If the focus of the map is aiming or finger control, and not how fast you can move your fingers, this might fit better.


You could also just go with emphasizing the stronger beats with hitsounds like this. The emphasis then comes from audio, instead of your cursor-moving hand.

Hard difficulties and lighter insane difficulties might want to do this, as they're much easier to do than actually streaming. Emphasis comes from when you have to click to begin the next repeatslider.
Obviously, you can make one big repeatslider as well, using hitsounds for emphasis again.



Of course, some of these might fit in other mapping styles as well, so for example a map mostly focusing on jumps might still just use a regular compact stream, because it fits within the context of the map, or using only sliders might work well if there are drums in the background of a vocal, and you want to follow both at the same time, etc. The use of hitsounds for emphasis also makes it something passive, while using sliders to create more lenient jumps makes it an active way for a player to feel a more powerful beat.

Adding this as a rule would make case 2, 4 and 5 unrankable, and this is in only one scenario where the stronger beats are on the white ticks. There's also when a mapper uses a 1/2 slider to follow drumbeats where the first one is stronger than the second, or using 3/4 sliders + note to essentially mimic a slider where you have to hit both the head and tail of it (because of a held note where beginning and end are equally powerful). While I know you only talk about short sliders, I don't think it would make much sense to limit it only to short sliders. Sliders are still something you hold and slide, no matter how long they are, so if this affects drums in 1/4, they should affect 1/2, 1/1, 2/1 etc, which will create problems for easier difficulties as well. There's also a bunch of 1/3 songs which would be very difficult to map properly. And you'd have to define "short slider". 1/2 sliders at very high bpms? Are they shortsliders? What about long 1/4 sliders in lowbpm maps?



So basically, no I don't think sliders in general should be limited at all in this way. If someone as a mapper dislike using shortsliders, they may just use any other technique to follow the song instead. Then that's their interpretation of the song, and how to put emphasis on the right places. If someone as a player don't like them, then all they have to do is to not play them. If a player dislikes jumps, they go and find non-jumpy maps. Similarily, a player who dislikes shortsliders like these should find maps that don't include them.

While there indeed are a lot of maps mapped these days that use short sliders in a lot of different ways (or maybe just because they want variety in their map), doesn't mean people stopped using other options. Limiting this also won't necessarily mean that the players get more maps, or better maps with other techniques. I don't see any benefit to the community as a whole by "banning" these.

Just random numbers pulled from thin air, but let's say the current mappool of ranked maps have 80% of the maps with shortsliders, and 20% without. With this rule, we get 0% with shortsliders and 100% without. We just removed one option from every player in the game, just to cather to the playerbase that prefers the maps without them, even though they already have maps to play. Also, since these are a trend, the majority of the playerbase most likely like them or don't mind them, so you would essentially only help a minority that already has what they like, but only wants more of it, denying other players what they like completely.

tl;dr: Adding this as a rule would be dumb. Why dumb? read above.
posted
The wording may be off, I am not a writer.
But there are still some people who understood what I mean, maybe together we can come up with a better definition?
I personally really dislike (1) and (2) from your examples and think that it goes on par with "overmapping", though this rule is supposed to address (2)
I'll add something later, if I think of a better way of describing the exact patterns
posted
lol no
wayyyyy too limiting
and a guideline would also be pointless cuz lets be homest. who follows those right? pfft
posted
how does it go on par with overmapping, cxu said all 9 notes expressed have drum beats. if there's a beat to be followed in the music amd there's a note on it, then it's not overmapped. pretty simple stuff. stop trying to force other people to map the way you want them to

you just flat out said "i don't like (2) so that's why i want to get rid of it." how about you stop being elitist and realize the world doesn't revolve around what you want
posted

Kert wrote:

monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.
In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition
Uwot

streams with kicksliders are like the best patterns in the game. Really satisfying to play and makes for more creative patterns than just a stream.

EDIT: They have to be used properly though. I generally only use a sliders mid stream to enhance a strong note or a shift in the music or what it may be.
posted

Kibbleru wrote:

lol no
wayyyyy too limiting
and a guideline would also be pointless cuz lets be homest. who follows those right? pfft

captin1 wrote:

there's enough rules as is, don't need to restrict things further for no reason other than someone's opinion

there should not ever be a "this is the way you should map this because it's right" because you're not right, nobody is right. it's up to how the mapper wishes to interpret the song.
I agree ;=;
posted
I'd also go with captin and CXu here. There are mappers that really like this technique and there are some that dont. If you're one that doesnt like that, just dont include it into your maps. Just because you dislike a thing doesnt mean that it shouldnt be rankable.

Everything else has been said already.
posted
dis rool iz dum xd

kepe shiet az iz
posted
Please, the most interesting and fun maps to be played around have that pattern you "hate".
It looks like just a personal ranting in my opinion.

Back to the discussion: Using short sliders even where there is a stream like CXu pointed out is a personal matter. I bet you do not map all those beats on lower diffs right? Same applies here: if the mapper wants to skip that beat, leave him be, as long as he does it in a proper/playable way.
Or we can go back to using flat deathstreams everywhere like in 2010 or even before that.

Stop imposing and have fun mapping, goddammit.
Imo all the rules we need are already there in the RC, and above all, why pointing this out right now after all the time this pattern has been around...
posted
I don't know if it has already been said but.
I think there should be a guideline concerning short sliders, especially those that gives you 100 easily, for example this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83310 (Rin's diff). The very short sliders at the beginning were a little difficult to hit accurately. If you just hit a few ms later (and sometimes earlier), you literally get a 100.
Just write something to encourage mappers to not use this "technique" with a guideline.

Also, sometimes auto can't SS because of kick sliders with 1/8 or 1/12 and a small gap between the kick slider and the next object. It's just because physically, the slider is too small and you need to increase the SV in order to avoid a 100 by Auto. There should be something like this too in guidelines, like "Make sure Auto can SS your map, if it gets 100 because of little kick sliders, their velocity should be increased..."
posted
No one would follow guidelines that's the point.
How about you all stop with personal attacks? You saying it's only my opinion doesn't make this more valid.
And it IS overmapping, just to a smaller extent. How about emphasizing every beat and put 1/16 sliders instead of all objects?
Mapper: "It looks cool! Such epicness!"
And then the players get sliderbreaks and confusion because of this "art" that makes the map less playable...
Cherry Blossom made a good example of what should be discouraged.
Why haven't this brought up earlier? God knows. Maybe it wasn't that popular back then?
posted
you having an opinion on this: totally fine, nothing wrong with that
you having an opinion on this and trying to make it so nobody else can do it: not okay at all

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
posted

Kert wrote:

monstrata wrote:

Not all these "short sliders" are mapped with the intention that you should hold them though...

When I map kicksliders, I prefer to think of them as just circles with a tail attached. They are very useful for creating short breaks in between stream sections of a map if you want to keep intensity without making the map too dense with 32+note streams.
In that case why not just make them circles without tails?
That's exactly the situation where they shouldn't be used! Sliders are supposed to be held by definition
1/4 slider is NOT the same as a simple 1/2 circle, and lets be honest here. 1/4 sliders give an entirely different effect when compared to 1/2 circles, well obviously, because they are 1/4s. 1/4 sliders are MEANT to be used in 1/4 sections.

Kert wrote:

No one would follow guidelines that's the point.
How about you all stop with personal attacks? You saying it's only my opinion doesn't make this more valid.
And it IS overmapping, just to a smaller extent. How about emphasizing every beat and put 1/16 sliders instead of all objects?
Mapper: "It looks cool! Such epicness!"
And then the players get sliderbreaks and confusion because of this "art" that makes the map less playable...
Cherry Blossom made a good example of what should be discouraged.
Why haven't this brought up earlier? God knows. Maybe it wasn't that popular back then?
no one is going to put all 1/16 sliders lol (this is unrankable iirc) unless if youre willing to silence all the slider tails manually, lol.
posted
I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing. I've seen it work really well on loads of maps, to which I even adopted that style myself. Using it I've made my personal favorite maps of my own, and according to every playtester.

I don't see a point in ruling it out tbh. If it's overmapping used well I'm all for it.
posted

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.
Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
posted

Kert wrote:

You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
You could always half/double/triple/quadruple/etc the BPM of the song too, in case you want 1/2, 1/1, 2/1, 4/1 or x/1 to be excessive too.

Usually it's like this: 1/1 is the basic beat, 1/2 is what we see as the basic playing beat (Singletaps). 1/4 are Streams to us (fast consecutive beats), 1/8 are "really fast Streams" (not many music genres use 1/8, so it's not used very often) and 1/16 are for shitmaps.

So basically;
1/1 is common
1/2 is common
1/4 is pretty common
1/8 is uncommon, is restricted to some music genres
1/16 is uncommon

I'd assume that this is why we're allowing up to 1/8 if the music allows for it. If it doesnt fit, then we're not using it. That's just how songs work (I guess).
Does that somewhat explain my thought? x:

After all, if you think that 1/4 is excessive - Dont use it. Nobody is forcing you to map that way - but neither should you try to disallow others to use what they'd like to use.
posted

Kert wrote:

captin1 wrote:

not understanding why someone does something doesn't mean it's bad, just means there's a lack of understanding
It was obvious from the beginning it's used to "emphasize" something so misunderstanding is not the problem here

Liiraye wrote:

I have no comment on using 1/16, it feels excessive for most parts, so I believe the ranking process should adress that, not rules.
1/4 sliders however, or even some 1/8 sliders only meant to be clicked once do a great job in emphasizing strong notes without needing too much spacing.
Ranking process is supposed to be based on rules, otherwise one can get anything ranked.
Also that's the problem here. You're saying 1/16 is bad and feels excessive and should be discouraged.. but 1/8 (sometimes) and 1/4 is fine.
I can say the same but a step lower - 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 is excessive and 1/2, 1/1 is fine.
How more valid is "banning" 1/16 and 1/8 and not banning 1/4?
What I meant about letting the ranking process handle it is to let the people in charge of ranking maps decide if it fits or not.
I didn't say 1/16 is bad, but in gameplay it makes the windows for hitting/releasing it correct extremely small. On the other hand, 1/8 is pretty easy to get right, and what I'm talking about is 1/8 kicksliders, where they don't repeat.

Regardless of my preferences, it all comes down to how it plays. If it's for example a low bpm map, 1/16 could be used as a 1/8 slider would on a faster map if the song allows for such patterns. Now you might say songs don't allow that, and that it's overmapping, but it's basically a subjective thing from both your and my side, and if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
I consider mapping an artform because of how diverse and unique it can be from person to person. It's for everyone to express their feelings onto a song and at the same time make it play nice.
posted
ur sounding like ur forcing others to do stuff, which is why ur getting all this hate

other than that i also agree with captin
posted

Liiraye wrote:

if it doesn't disrupt gameplay and fits really well I'm 100% for overmapping.
The purpose of this rule is basically to formally address the situations where it disrupts gameplay. It's still a game, not a painting or whatever
It may be better as a guideline if there's too many special cases by looking at the current definition, but guidelines aren't enforced a lot so
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