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snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper
Just made another graph...
http://prntscr.com/9yuues

This imaginary player would be a totally average player, I took the same rank for every skill. This would be probably considered Berserker or Adventurous, and not (Versatile maybe?) the one which means balanced, which is what this player actually is.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Agility is a bit weird in the upper numbers, I agree with this.
But I personally really don't like this kind of pentagon graphs, I think they are a lot less representative than bars.
PizzaWings
1 post
Joined January 2015
PizzaWings
I'm not sure if the suggestion has been made yet or not but instead of grouping streaming as one large skill group maybe do stream acc and stream speed or something siimilar because of spaced streams and normal streams being very different skills (imo). Don't take my word for it cause i'm a pretty low rank, just something i thought would be nice, also great job so far hope to see this last a long time as it's very useful :)
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

Kert wrote:

Agility is a bit weird in the upper numbers, I agree with this.
But I personally really don't like this kind of pentagon graphs, I think they are a lot less representative than bars.
Hm... Pentagon graphs are cooler, but they are not simple to program, I guess... It's not just put the lowest skill as the minimum, you may have noticed, I put the minimum number in the pentagon way lower than my lowest skill. Also, now that you said, I agree with you that bars are more representative, so... they probably should stay there, at least for some time. Only after everything else is made it should be thought again which one is better, even though bars are more likely to stay.

So... are we gonna see changes in the titles according to the rankings in the future? What do you think?
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

PizzaWings wrote:

I'm not sure if the suggestion has been made yet or not but instead of grouping streaming as one large skill group maybe do stream acc and stream speed or something siimilar because of spaced streams and normal streams being very different skills (imo). Don't take my word for it cause i'm a pretty low rank, just something i thought would be nice, also great job so far hope to see this last a long time as it's very useful :)
Hm... I think that's a nice idea, but if they put it to work, then they gotta think about other skills too, which means from 5 skills we have now, we would get like 10 skills later?

stream speed, stream accuracy, jump accuracy, jump speed, jump distance, precision in jumps, precision in streams, etc.

So... Even if that's a good idea, I think that wouldn't actually work...
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

snyviper wrote:

PizzaWings wrote:

I'm not sure if the suggestion has been made yet or not but instead of grouping streaming as one large skill group maybe do stream acc and stream speed or something siimilar because of spaced streams and normal streams being very different skills (imo). Don't take my word for it cause i'm a pretty low rank, just something i thought would be nice, also great job so far hope to see this last a long time as it's very useful :)
Hm... I think that's a nice idea, but if they put it to work, then they gotta think about other skills too, which means from 5 skills we have now, we would get like 10 skills later?

stream speed, stream accuracy, jump accuracy, jump speed, jump distance, precision in jumps, precision in streams, etc.

So... Even if that's a good idea, I think that wouldn't actually work...
Why not include a skill for how good a player can do clockwise vs counter-clockwise star patterns as well? :)
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

abraker wrote:

Why not include a skill for how good a player can do clockwise vs counter-clockwise star patterns as well? :)
That's brilliant!
NaTha
594 posts
Joined January 2013
NaTha
What does the "Berserk" under my Name mean?
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

NaTha wrote:

What does the "Berserk" under my Name mean?
It's a title, search a few pages back and you'll understand, it's still not official but Defacer has taken some of his time to try to find out what titles are there and what they mean, he found a meaning for berserk too, so.. if you find his post, you'll know. (repeating, what Defacer found is not official, but his guess).
E m i
E m i
Agility just scales too hard, everyone is good at jump aim according to osuskills plz fix ;w;
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,305 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon

Momiji wrote:

Agility just scales too hard, everyone is good at jump aim according to osuskills plz fix ;w;
well the maps are also at fault. but I agree, my agility stat is a little bit too high.
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

Momiji wrote:

Agility just scales too hard, everyone is good at jump aim according to osuskills plz fix ;w;
Well... Not just agility. Look at this graph I made (and also posted here) http://prntscr.com/9yuues
This would be a totally average player, all skills are from the same rank. Agility and tenacity scales too much. Precision and accuracy scales too little. Not sure about stamina, maybe it's ok, maybe it's scaling too much...
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

timemon wrote:

Momiji wrote:

Agility just scales too hard, everyone is good at jump aim according to osuskills plz fix ;w;
well the maps are also at fault. but I agree, my agility stat is a little bit too high.

What if everone's good at agility because they train it thus it's exactly where it ought to be
snyviper
87 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

Khelly wrote:

What if everone's good at agility because they train it thus it's exactly where it ought to be
Sounds like a conspiracy :o
I still think this should work on the human limits, not living being limits xD like best human agility=1000, best human tenacity=1000, worst human agility=0, etc... and not necessarily the most agile human ever lives nowadays and plays osu, so... At least something similar should be ok xD
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
And if the scale is logarithmic where every 100 increase is way harder than the last 100?
E m i
E m i
Is agility also based only on the speed the cursor has to move at? ok dad ezhddt same agility as ok dad hddthr, cool. It's not even "aim" at all.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Distance between objects is slightly bigger with HR and slightly smaller with EZ than nomod. This affects the speed you are talking about too
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
FAQ section added.
You can also see a list of currently found titles there (except special ones)
Gigo
266 posts
Joined March 2013
Gigo
That's cool! So... versatile and ambitious are basically the same thing?
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Different average
TheLukay
122 posts
Joined July 2012
TheLukay

snyviper wrote:

Momiji wrote:

Agility just scales too hard, everyone is good at jump aim according to osuskills plz fix ;w;
Well... Not just agility. Look at this graph I made (and also posted here) http://prntscr.com/9yuues
This would be a totally average player, all skills are from the same rank. Agility and tenacity scales too much. Precision and accuracy scales too little. Not sure about stamina, maybe it's ok, maybe it's scaling too much...
I think everything scales just fine. My acc is extremely bad(almost any player rank 20k or better will have the same or better acc than me)compared to the rest(not counting in Precision since >CS6 doesn't really weight into my pp or top100) http://imgur.com/LeNBBKM

On a different note I'd really really really like to see a skill for Spinner. They're part of the game but everybody seems to forget them.
E m i
E m i

Kert wrote:

Distance between objects is slightly bigger with HR and slightly smaller with EZ than nomod. This affects the speed you are talking about too
This doesn't even seem to be accounted for (yet?), and I think that the center of objects is what matters more because it's approximately what players are aiming for.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
I don't know what you're trying to say then anymore
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Is tapping stamina also stream stamina?
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Momiji wrote:

Kert wrote:

Distance between objects is slightly bigger with HR and slightly smaller with EZ than nomod. This affects the speed you are talking about too
This doesn't even seem to be accounted for (yet?), and I think that the center of objects is what matters more because it's approximately what players are aiming for.
Kert, it affects speed very insignificantly. Smaller CS affects the distance by some 40 osu!px or so (need to run calculations). As for what I think he is trying to say is that the formula is factoring speed vs precision wrong. Agility is dependent on precision in regard that players loose pression the faster the jump is and pattern requires more precision the further the note is. Then the resultant precision from the 2 factors mentioned tell how likely the player is able to aim a certain note given CS.

Khelly wrote:

Is tapping stamina also stream stamina?
currently yes. Tapping stamina is affected by how fast you need to tap. Since you neee to tap fast for streams, streams affect tapping stamina
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
So here's a question I have because I didn't really participate in any discussion ever: Is the tapping (or tenacity, whatever) stat affected in long stream maps by how difficult those maps are agility wise? A few days ago I was playing four dimensions and I just wanted to verify if my failing stamina at the end was affected by aim which I guessed it was.

I played warpledge onslaught immediately after and got my x1000 combo. That map has little stream aim. Then I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/267052 and didn't break on any of the longer streams even though it's the same bpm as Four dimensions. Then I immediately played Four dimensions autopilot and again, didn't break on the streams that I was losing stamina on when playing it properly. If anything, my stamina should be worse on each successive map since I didn't rest.

That was my unscientific experiment.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I talked about this with B1rd, which made realize an unforseen side effect from seperating the skills.

abraker wrote:

Separating the skills completely independent of each other may cause some other factors to occur. Players seem to be able to aim with the Relax mod and tap with auto pilot much better than nomod. The player focuses less on a general task the more independent tasks there are. I will have to look into how multitasking affects performance and see what the distribution of focus is between tapping and targeting given the map's requirements and player skill. That then should be weighted in to the skills to counterbalance the issue you are mentioning.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
That's also why accurate lowbpm-streaming is terribly underrated. Even Granat has a higher streamrating than some 130bpm deathstream maps.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
To be honest, under about 140 bpm, you can just singletap streams (Maybe if you're faster than me you can do 140 streams singletap well but I'm meh). 150-160 bpm streams is where I can't reliably singletap them at all and they're too slow to stream.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
nyanyanyan nomod doesn't give any reasonable streaming score either.
From my point of view it is relatively random how much score a map gives unless it is clearly fast and streamheavy.
Just the fact alone that a map like Granat with exactly one quint as a non-FC-score with mediocre gives more points than a 99,x FC on a 4min 170bpm song with some actual streams is just stupid.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
Please, show exact Granat vs streammap scores and their stamina/tenacity points. Both must be fc-s

It will be a complete mess if we mix tap difficulty with aim. I am strongly against this.
Buffing spaced streams is probably possible with some more precise tweaking. It's already considered to some extent.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Kert wrote:

It will be a complete mess if we mix tap difficulty with aim. I am strongly against this.
But do you deny that tap difficulty, at least for streams, is affected by aim?
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert
It's not. The chance of a miss increases if you're bad at aiming/can't read in this case. You don't really need to press faster or for a longer time, because obviosly nothing changes in the rhythm.
Misses have the most impact on received points (any skill) and I don't think that it's possible to identify from the lack of what skill a certain miss happened.
The problem here is agilty value of a big fast jump sequence in comparison with a spaced stream. I repeat, we haven't found a good balance yet.
DeletedUser_6614359
DeletedUser_6614359
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Last edited by DeletedUser_6614359 , edited 1 time in total.
E m i
E m i

Kert wrote:

I don't know what you're trying to say then anymore
That despite the agility stat implying aim, it doesn't seem to consider circle size at all
Or I guess you know this already so I might just be saying that I see it as a slight problem xd
Precision exists, right? Interestingly it seems to consider more than just the circle size alone :o
Last edited by E m i , edited 1 time in total.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Aye sir, unfortunately I can't FC Granat but
Drop - Granat (Kaguya Hourain) [Natural Gem] (96.67%)
awards me 267 points for Tenacity with 163 combo, 2 misses and 6 100s
The map has a total of 3 quads in terms of streams if I didn't miscount. Based on the information you gave earlier in the thread, minimum-length has to be 6 notes before it is considered as a stream so this map should be considered as a map without streams.

while
Touyama Nao & Yamazaki Haruka - Ringo Ribbon (Fycho) [Insane] (99.4%)
as FC awards me 242 points for Tenacity even though I can clearly remember that it had a couple of streams above 6 notes even though you can't call it a streammap.

In any case, we still got nostreams+noFC vs FC+fewstreams and the latter gives less points which doesn't make sense to me.

For reference I got as FCs
Raujika - Cry More (Broccoly) [Broccoly] +HD (99.86%) 200 points
Otokaze - Mallow Flower (spboxer3) [Mallow] +HD (100%) 217 points
Otokaze - Karen (Short Ver.) (spboxer3) [Hanabi] (99.08%) 237 points
As you probably know these 3 are all exclusive singletap-maps which is why they shouldn't award any points for streaming at all and even if they appear they shouldn't get close to a map that contains something you can actually call a stream.
Minecraft570
34 posts
Joined December 2012
Minecraft570
I have a suggestion.It would have more competition if a country ranking is added.It should be quite easy to make right?:P
The Actor
51 posts
Joined October 2015
The Actor

Minecraft570 wrote:

I have a suggestion.It would have more competition if a country ranking is added.It should be quite easy to make right?:P
osu!supporter
It's already implemented, need to spend money tho
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Topic Starter
Kert

Minecraft570 wrote:

I have a suggestion.It would have more competition if a country ranking is added.It should be quite easy to make right?:P
Takes a bit of time, but yes it can be done.

The Actor, you forgot to read what this thread is about
but yeah we still need osu!Skills donations to keep the site alive :(
currently they barely manage to cover the costs
E m i
E m i
Last updates: Top 100 — 9 days ago
pls help it's not a one time issue xd
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