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Are new players headed the wrong way? - Azer Video

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Mahogany

Khelly wrote:

You're not actually making much sense and being hilariously passive aggressive and your second sentence seems kind of hypocritical.
Me? But it's true, as far as I can tell. If you want a better explanation then point out what doesn't make sense so I can fix it.

I'm not saying DT is overweighted at a high level: It isn't. Daidai is about as far as DT farm goes. You go much further than that and the effort required starts to line up with the PP rewarded, as far as I can tell.

But it's very much true that when -most- people discuss DT, -in the context of them playing it- they're probably going to be talking about the farm maps such as Koigokoro, Daidai, Setting Sail, and the rest, (Or even just 4modding easies) because a large majority of the community only plays at a mid to low level.

Last I checked, Setting Sail HDDT SS gives about the same PP as Gangsta nomod SS

That's an entire star difference for very similar PP gain.
StephOsu

Reset-'s signature wrote:

this game is hard

rrtyui wrote:

prease enjoy gemu
i don't think new players headed the wrong way though unless they try to make the game more challenging by changing playstyle that seems cool but hard at the same time instead of challenging on higher difficulty (anyone remembers the double stylus touchscreen guy who said that he could do better with mouse but insist on using double stylus)
mods are a part of the game and they can be used anytime to enhance your osu experience
that being said i think dt is the worst mod in the game because it ruins songs
though i would say daidai genome gets better and/or cuter after dt
Yuudachi-kun

Mahogany wrote:

Khelly wrote:

You're not actually making much sense and being hilariously passive aggressive and your second sentence seems kind of hypocritical.
Me?
No, not you. The singaporean
deletemyaccount
The single correct answer to this entire thread

Kzuma_old
I'm no good at theology, but sometimes I wonder if people are building religions around the mods they use in osu!. I remember one time not too long where I was in a multiplayer lobby and I casually mentioned that I don't like DT because I feel like it ruins the music more often than not, and [rank 200-ish guy] and his girlfriend(??) got lit up and went off on me in ways that probably would warrant a silence if I'd cared to report them.

I like to play HR (and I don't claim to be good at it; I just like to play it!), but I'm perfectly cool with it if anyone wants to tell me how much it trashes the beatmap author's intended spirit of their maps. As far as Azer's video is concerned, I get the impression that he expressed his opinions in a very concise, well-spoken way that lacks any malice whatsoever. I think it is outright awkward if anyone feels like it was a personal attack against them for their decisions to play particular mods or maps in osu!, and that applies to the whole discussion about farm maps etc.

I agree with everything he said in his video btw! The most important part was at the end: plz enjoy game. :3
deletemyaccount

Kzuma wrote:

I'm no good at theology, but sometimes I wonder if people are building religions around the mods they use in osu!. I remember one time not too long where I was in a multiplayer lobby and I casually mentioned that I don't like DT because I feel like it ruins the music more often than not, and [rank 200-ish guy] and his girlfriend(??) got lit up and went off on me in ways that probably would warrant a silence if I'd cared to report them.
i think some people take this game too seriously
Reyvateil
Azer talking about pp farming...

I can't even take this video seriously.
Kzuma_old

Mikakage wrote:

Azer talking about pp farming...

I can't even take this video seriously.
Hello,

I don't mean to be rude, but can you elaborate about what part of Azer's video you can't take seriously? His opinions seem pretty truthful to me. Whether or not he abuses the current pp system to earn ranks doesn't invalidate that. He seems like the type of person who just plays what he enjoys and, even if he didn't, I don't think it should detract from the heartfelt statements he made in his video!

It'd just be nice to understand what you don't like about what he said! Maybe it'd make for some more interesting conversation about the video (which is the topic) rather than turning the thread into a pro/anti Azer flamewar.
Reyvateil

Kzuma wrote:

Mikakage wrote:

Azer talking about pp farming...

I can't even take this video seriously.
Hello,

I don't mean to be rude, but can you elaborate about what part of Azer's video you can't take seriously? His opinions seem pretty truthful to me. Whether or not he abuses the current pp system to earn ranks doesn't invalidate that. He seems like the type of person who just plays what he enjoys and, even if he didn't, I don't think it should detract from the heartfelt statements he made in his video!

It'd just be nice to understand what you don't like about what he said! Maybe it'd make for some more interesting conversation about the video (which is the topic) rather than turning the thread into a pro/anti Azer flamewar.
Recently he is much less pp oriented than he was a few months ago, and he said he started to enjoy the game more after he changed his mindset.

But for a good while he was that guy who picked the maps to play with HDHR for the pp potential of the maps and spent hours retrying the same map over and over to get these points, sometimes even replaying said maps for increasing his accuracy because with HR, a small increase in accuracy means a lot for the pp system. He still does this from time to time. And said maps with HDHR (with exceptions, of course, United is a sick score for example) are easier than what thelewa had to do to get pp back in early 2014, because like he said, the meta changed and fat pp maps for HR players were made.

Looking at the top 50 right now, he is probably the biggest "farmer" there considering the level of the players and the maps on his top performance compared to the others. If you watch the "Top 20 players of 2014" video on youtube it pretty much shows how his mindset was very pp oriented as almost all of his commentary in that video is talking about rankings and pp.

He is a great player, he is one of the player who evolved very fast in this game and got to the top ranks, his reading and skills are well rounded, but his ranking came from this farming.

And I just find it hilarious that from all people, he was the one to make this video.

P.S. - DT gets too much hate.

Mahogany wrote:

Setting Sail, Pony Maps, This map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/551348?m=0

Pretty much any OD8 AR8 map around 3.5* will be massive farm
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/23975

Try others from 2011 and before that too.
gregest

Mikakage wrote:

Azer talking about pp farming...

I can't even take this video seriously.
top 100 is about who can farm pp faster, nothing else
I Give Up
I like map play all map
gregest

KukiMonster wrote:

I like map play all map
I like very nice map plz enjoy map
KanoSet
why to not farm DT, play ar10 and have fun
pls enjoy the game
Mahogany

Khelly wrote:

Mahogany wrote:

Me?
No, not you. The singaporean
I wasnt sure xd
Risa

Mahogany wrote:

I wasnt sure xd
If someone is wasting your time u shd just ignore that person
The Gambler
If Azer is referring to how broken I am...

He's probably right. But I enjoy it, so why does that make the game bad?
Kert
Those top tier players who can play anything anymod are the best out there
It's just the audience gets the wrong idea because of the way PP works
Bauxe
This is literally what I have been saying for the past year, and everyone just tells me to shut the fuck up.
Gumpy
tldr Bauxe and Azer are right, you all suck and everyone should let Gameplay & Rankings die like the shithole it is.
E m i

Kert wrote:

Those top tier players who can play anything anymod are the best out there
It's just the audience gets the wrong idea because of the way PP works
this >:)
Lance

Bauxe wrote:

This is literally what I have been saying for the past year, and everyone just tells me to shut the fuck up.
A lot of people have been saying this for years. It's just a shitfest whenever it gets mentioned so most people just avoid the conversation.

Momiji wrote:

plz enjoy game
Risa

Bauxe wrote:

This is literally what I have been saying for the past year, and everyone just tells me to shut the fuck up.
Pretty sure those ppl are just thick headed people who will never accept a different opinion. Time is precious so dont even bother with them. Trying to get to them is a waste of time.
I Give Up
No love for us plebs.
Nadfee
Well..

To put it in a way.. People who are true to themselves normally get maps/songs they previously liked before or maybe found a song they like and decide to play it but on the other hand... those pesky PP hunters are the ones that influence and cause trouble to others. You cant sack up "new players" in one category. There are different types of new players and it depends on what drew them to the game/what they wanted to accomplish from the beginning.

I agree that players are heading towards the wrong way because of the fact that they are IMPATIENT. They rush everything, they want to be good at something in just a *swoosh*. They become intimidated by these awesome plays people upload (ex. Cookiezi, FunOrange, etc) and they want to get to that level like, now. What most people don't understand is that you have to put a limit to how hard your "practice" gets (ex. Learning AR10 before learning AR9).

Heck I cant even properly read AR10.

On the other hand there are players who watched a top play video and instead of focusing on the tremendous amount of skill the player has, he liked the song he was hearing. This player just plays songs he likes and at a difficulty that is appropriate. If it becomes too easy for this player, he tries to find a new map/song, but only ones that he would grow interest of (This is my case at least, I only play songs that I like).

So if I want to wrap this up;
You cant sack New Players into one category because people have different mindsets. The majority of new players are indeed going the wrong way because they become impatient when it comes down to improving their skills and the fact that they are being intimidated by "godly plays" just adds more fuel to the impatiences (Some go as far as to PP farm just to be able to brag that they are high rank). The minority of the new players are the ones who are actually enjoying the game and having fun as they play, these people don't take anything that has to do with ranks seriously.

The best is of course the middle of all that if you want to both have fun and improve. Try to put yourself there and it should fix itself (As in a variation of mostly playing maps that you know you will enjoy but also a slice of maps that might challenge you but is still within your music taste). Unfriend Tillerino and start looking for songs ^^
meteor22
didn't watch all, it was too long

Azer is probably mad cuz he hasn't made much pp lately. :)
Infevo
Why is it so hard to understand that people enjoy progress? People enjoy farming pp. Why can't they enjoy progressing skill/pp-wise?

Let's just accept that people are different. And that a pretty good bunch of players actually likes competitiveness. (wow! ikr!)
Endaris

Infevo wrote:

Why is it so hard to understand that people enjoy progress? People enjoy farming pp. Why can't they enjoy progressing skill/pp-wise?

Let's just accept that people are different. And that a pretty good bunch of players actually likes competitiveness. (wow! ikr!)
It's that they only get better at the pp-relevant components of the game.
There is no good reading required if you're picking the correct maps and you also don't have to get good at rhythms as there are plenty of jumpy 1/2 circle-slider-spam-tvsize-maps without any blueticks to fulfill your pp-needs.
I like the competition too, easily noticeable by the farm on my top ranks but people who only go down this road will have a hard time playing this game as a rhythm game later on as rhythmic understanding isn't rewarded and as a result not acquired by these players.
Infevo
The further a player proceeds in rank the more important accuracy will become to keep up with progressing. So I'd second guess this point...

And there are numerous players who progress just fine simply by farming pp.

Why are people even bothered by this? I don't see any reason to keep preaching down on other players for their preferences if oneself in fact _enjoys the game_. At this point everything should just be fine.

Stop telling others _how_ to enjoy this game!
Frostmourne
Someone make a subtitle for the video please :^)

nvm I watched on smartphone but it didn't appear, it appears fine on pc LOL

edit2: demn the subtitle wasn't reliable
Endaris

Infevo wrote:

The further a player proceeds in rank the more important accuracy will become to keep up with progressing. So I'd second guess this point...
Getting good accuracy on mentioned 1/2-spam-jump-maps is an easy task though. Even DJ Fuduji has some 98%+ plays on his top ranks. But having good acc on something like this is plain worthless, as the rhythmical complexity is as close to zero as it can get.
Idk how I should judge your statement either cause your acc isn't particularly good, too(I consider 96-97% weighted acc a standard easily achievable by anyone).
It's also not about telling people how to enjoy the game but to stop judging their skill based on their pp and stopping to consider pp as the only accurate measure. This is very hard to do though as pp is a good measure in some sense, but a terrible one in others.
Letting skill show via pp is something that pushes competition-orientated players towards the special type of map like the one linked above, ignoring other components of the game. They are in no way encouraged to play complex maps with doubles, syncopes and all that stuff which leaves them with an extremely one-sided skillset.

tl;dr
ppv2 encourages competition-orientated players to play osu! as an aim-simulator or something similar but not a rhythmgame.
Infevo
This is not taiko. osu!standard as a game mode has a very solid aim component since half of what you effectivly do is aiming. only because the aiming skill is much more quicker aquired since there are more maps which enforce players to aim properly than actually focus on the rhythm doesn't mean it has less value.
Shouldn't be too much of a surprise the pp algorithm takes aim into account to a very big extent.

People wouldn't play osu!standard if they wanted a mere aiming game and this was all they cared about and had fun with, would they?

Accuracy is an important aspect as well. But its importance doesn't kick in until the OD significantly increases. And as long as we talk about players like me who are nowhere near a skill level of actually having to deal with OD10 and higher this particular stat literally doesn't say anything especially since reading skills, object density and/or particularly too high AR play a lot into it eventually and map pools are absolutely random from one player to another. There are players around my rank who play almost exclusively OD7 and lower. Of course they will achieve a higher accuracy on paper while technically there is no point in comparing.

Btw. try harding for high acc (on any level) can arguably contradict "enjoy game" either.

As long as the pp algorithm is the way it is you cannot blame the players/mappers for abusing it. Instead feel free to make reasonable suggestions in the pp thread or by messaging tom directly.
Endaris
I'm not talking about accuracy in the sense of being accurate in general though.
It has something to do with being able to read more complex patterns and execute them cleanly.
There are 2.5* OD4 maps out there that turn out to be hard to acc as any OD requires an extent of rhythmic understanding to punish you for misreading or improper execution. Idk how else you want to explain that I struggle do get above 97% on some sub-3* OD6-maps while I'm totally capable of SSing 4* OD7 or even OD8 in some cases(and can get like 92-95% on OD10 provided I don't fail the map and it's not X-encounter-level).

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58833
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/24615

just to name two low* maps that are fairly hard to execute precisely.

So there are different types of low accuracy like in "being unable to keep low UR due to lack of practice", "unable to stream properly" and "being unable to be accurate due to not being able to understand the rhythm".
And the last thing is something that shouldn't be encouraged but is the case very often when highly competitive pp-farmers face technical maps.
I don't even consider myself good at these but whenever I come into a 3-4* multiroom and a decently hard-to-read map is selected I see the people dying all over the place and the only conclusion I can get is that these people don't understand what is happening on their screen and just blindly mash their keyboard while aiming properly.
Tidek
@Khelly

Fast example of farm map (easy 4,7* + DT), free 350pp, this is even better than koigokoro xD
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/198978
E m i

Tidek wrote:

@Khelly

Fast example of farm map (easy 4,7* + DT), free 350pp, this is even better than koigokoro xD
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/198978
YES
I Give Up

FrostxE wrote:

Someone make a subtitle for the video please :^)

nvm I watched on smartphone but it didn't appear, it appears fine on pc LOL

edit2: demn the subtitle wasn't reliable
I transcribed it. You may now have my babies.

Hi guys. Today I'll be experimenting with another form of content so please let me know if you enjoy it. As some of you know I'm a huge World of Warcraft fan and I follow a lot of content creators that govern the game. One of the biggest type of content those guys put out is discussion videos and I wanted to try my hand at them as we don't have anyone doing them in the osu community as far as I know. So in this video I wanted to talk about new players and more specifically the direction they're heading in.

We live in an era of players who just want to go fast. Everything must be AR10 or they just can't play it. We also have players looking up to those people and telling themselves they must play AR10 too when it's far too soon in their learning curve to be able to play it. What results of these players is people playing whack-a-mole. They throw all sense of rhythm out the window and just react to fast objects on the screen instead of playing a rhythm game. You can throw these players an AR9 map and they won't know how to play it because they can't read it. Are those players really a problem? Are they really playing a rhythm game? Well, let's remember that this game is community driven. Sometimes the interest of the player base changes and that leaves the older members to tag along because they don't have much choice. What if in 2 years the player base now consist of these people who only play AR10?

Remember when this map came out? (Nhato - Miss You [Selentia]) Remember how the majority of the community absolutely hated it? Yet today many of us now consider it to be one of the greatest maps ever made. I mean few years ago you showed a mapper this map and they will tell you its bad yet for whatever reason today, we like it. Or at least some of us do. It happens all the time. A controversial map inspires other mappers to try this style and expand on it, and then it creates a chain reaction and that results in that controversial mapping style being the new meta.

Players are getting better, and so maps are getting harder and harder to fit their demands. And we will probably reach a point where AR10 is the norm and the players we will consider to be gods are the ones who are now playing whack-a-mole today. Who knows?

Another kind of player in this era is the player who came after the introduction of Tom's PP system and only care about growing that number on their profile. These are the players who spend 100% of their play time talking to Tillerino and just trying to find the next over-weighted map they can set a score on. Generally these players only end up playing DT or no mod at all.

A few years back when we were under the old PP system, PP was all about your ranking on the map, which meant that playing hidden was really rewarding. If you learnt to play it you will get a ton of bonus points just for playing the exact same map. Unfortunately in the new system hidden is only a small percentage bonus and has little to no incentive for a player that's looking to gain PP. What I mean is... If a player has to chose between gaining PP by farming over-weighted DT maps like Koigokoro - which is something that requires no particular learning effort. Or play an AR9 insane with hidden - a mod they've never really used by itself before and it requires them to learn how to read with it. They will obviously choose the DT map over and over because its the path of least resistance. The easiest option.

We've seen more and more tournaments this year. And as someone who's been involved in most of them as a player or as a staff member, I've seen some really good players I've never heard of a year ago. And they're not able to play hidden on its own. These are 3 digit players who can shit out 300pp plays left and right but they can't FC anything with hidden on its own. These players who only care about PP will eventually become the majority of the player base if they aren't already. And you can already see the effects of it: mappers creating maps with the sole purpose of abusing the flaws of the PP system just so most players play their maps because as it is now - as good as the map is - if it's not rewarding to the average player, the average player will not play it.

Some of my best memories in this game come from playing some of the masterpieces people have created - and a big reason why I love the game so much to this day despite it being fundamentally flawed as a rhythm game - is all the wonderful music people have made me discover through their maps and if you haven't spent time in the game at least try to enjoy yourself and discover all the wonderful content people have created. I can only tell ya... Please enjoy game.

That's it for today. I hope you guys enjoyed and I will see you guys next time.
vsprite
diz iz a rhythm gaem rhythm gaems arnt supose to hav ranks therfor plz enjoy gam guis pls


>hypocryt dt famer
Frostmourne

KukiMonster wrote:

FrostxE wrote:

Someone make a subtitle for the video please :^)

nvm I watched on smartphone but it didn't appear, it appears fine on pc LOL

edit2: demn the subtitle wasn't reliable
I transcribed it. You may now have my babies.

SPOILER
Hi guys. Today I'll be experimenting with another form of content so please let me know if you enjoy it. As some of you know I'm a huge World of Warcraft fan and I follow a lot of content creators that govern the game. One of the biggest type of content those guys put out is discussion videos and I wanted to try my hand at them as we don't have anyone doing them in the osu community as far as I know. So in this video I wanted to talk about new players and more specifically the direction they're heading in.

We live in an era of players who just want to go fast. Everything must be AR10 or they just can't play it. We also have players looking up to those people and telling themselves they must play AR10 too when it's far too soon in their learning curve to be able to play it. What results of these players is people playing whack-a-mole. They throw all sense of rhythm out the window and just react to fast objects on the screen instead of playing a rhythm game. You can throw these players an AR9 map and they won't know how to play it because they can't read it. Are those players really a problem? Are they really playing a rhythm game? Well, let's remember that this game is community driven. Sometimes the interest of the player base changes and that leaves the older members to tag along because they don't have much choice. What if in 2 years the player base now consist of these people who only play AR10?

Remember when this map came out? (Nhato - Miss You [Selentia]) Remember how the majority of the community absolutely hated it? Yet today many of us now consider it to be one of the greatest maps ever made. I mean few years ago you showed a mapper this map and they will tell you its bad yet for whatever reason today, we like it. Or at least some of us do. It happens all the time. A controversial map inspires other mappers to try this style and expand on it, and then it creates a chain reaction and that results in that controversial mapping style being the new meta.

Players are getting better, and so maps are getting harder and harder to fit their demands. And we will probably reach a point where AR10 is the norm and the players we will consider to be gods are the ones who are now playing whack-a-mole today. Who knows?

Another kind of player in this era is the player who came after the introduction of Tom's PP system and only care about growing that number on their profile. These are the players who spend 100% of their play time talking to Tillerino and just trying to find the next over-weighted map they can set a score on. Generally these players only end up playing DT or no mod at all.

A few years back when we were under the old PP system, PP was all about your ranking on the map, which meant that playing hidden was really rewarding. If you learnt to play it you will get a ton of bonus points just for playing the exact same map. Unfortunately in the new system hidden is only a small percentage bonus and has little to no incentive for a player that's looking to gain PP. What I mean is... If a player has to chose between gaining PP by farming over-weighted DT maps like Koigokoro - which is something that requires no particular learning effort. Or play an AR9 insane with hidden - a mod they've never really used by itself before and it requires them to learn how to read with it. They will obviously choose the DT map over and over because its the path of least resistance. The easiest option.

We've seen more and more tournaments this year. And as someone who's been involved in most of them as a player or as a staff member, I've seen some really good players I've never heard of a year ago. And they're not able to play hidden on its own. These are 3 digit players who can shit out 300pp plays left and right but they can't FC anything with hidden on its own. These players who only care about PP will eventually become the majority of the player base if they aren't already. And you can already see the effects of it: mappers creating maps with the sole purpose of abusing the flaws of the PP system just so most players play their maps because as it is now - as good as the map is - if it's not rewarding to the average player, the average player will not play it.

Some of my best memories in this game come from playing some of the masterpieces people have created - and a big reason why I love the game so much to this day despite it being fundamentally flawed as a rhythm game - is all the wonderful music people have made me discover through their maps and if you haven't spent time in the game at least try to enjoy yourself and discover all the wonderful content people have created. I can only tell ya... Please enjoy game.

That's it for today. I hope you guys enjoyed and I will see you guys next time.
<333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
Infevo
@Endaris
Keep in mind the algorithm already takes numerous things into account. It considers so much and frankly it is ridiculous to expect much more from tom when he has already worked so hard on it.

I just demand of everyone criticizing it based of your reasoning and being in a competitive position where it matters to go for the same plays top players have and prove how flawed the player base' thinking is. Of course, there will be players who will be able to fc read intensive maps with high accuracy. However, this particular skill doesn't subsequently mean they are also capable of doing as fine on fast aim maps. It is fundamentally wrong to assume there was a correlation! If that was the case EZ/HD/FL players would dominate the top 50.
mariojudah
Who the hell cares what direction they're heading?

Isn't he one of the people who say to just play to get better and to enjoy it?
E m i

RejectedTaco wrote:

Who the hell cares what direction they're heading?

Isn't he one of the people who say to just play to get better and to enjoy it?
I don't understand what you're saying but I like it xd
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