Regraz wrote:

Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.

Look at the mode-specific forums
In all 3, there is a sticked thread with the BN/QAT/Alumni of certain mode
Ono made the taiko one, I did the CtB one/Mania One

inspectorscout wrote:

Lastly, I believe that the minimum amount of mods done every month should be higher (please don't kill me BN's). 3-5 mods every month; that is something you can do in 3 hours or something. If you raise that amount to something higher, hell, let's say 8, and you make that amount clear to all players looking to join the BN, there will be less applicants for sure, while giving a boost to the modding done (because, to be honest, when I mod maps, all the other maps are from the same 20 people).

Then you're most likely not doing a good job.

If you're modding a 4 diff TV size map, that's 1:30 minutes x 4. So at a bare minimum, we can expect to spend 6 minutes on playtesting all the four difficulties, and 6 minutes on watching through every difficulty in the editor once. This assumes that you're able to check for flow issues, rhythm issues, aesthetics, patterns, hitsounding, consistency and a whole lot of other things all at once, in one go, without ever having to pause the editor. Add to that a few minutes to check metadata, folder and difficulty settings, the best-case scenario for a mod of a tv size 4 diff mapset is about 15 minutes. So yes you can finish 3 mods in less than an hour.

But realistically, that doesn't happen ever. It's much more common that modding one difficulty takes anything between 30-60 minutes to over 3 hours and beyond, depending on how much work a difficulty needs. You could mod "perfect mapsets", but even then, you'd still have to actually check that it is perfect. And don't forget the 7 diff 4:50 maps.

I'm sure most of the BNs spend at least about an hour on every difficulty, not every mapset.

Regraz wrote:

Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.

There are lists of mode-capable BNs in the respective subforums. In the old BAT system, the Wiki showed which mode each BAT was in charge of (similar to what the QAT Wiki page looks today). I proposed to return to that template, but showing b]what modes each BN felt proficient at[/b]. Got a NO shoved in my face.

ZiRoX wrote:

Regraz wrote:

Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.

There are lists of mode-capable BNs in the respective subforums. In the old BAT system, the Wiki showed which mode each BAT was in charge of (similar to what the QAT Wiki page looks today). I proposed to return to that template, but showing b]what modes each BN felt proficient at[/b]. Got a NO shoved in my face.

So did I
t/279397

OnosakiHito wrote:

inspectorscout and ZiRoX might be interested about this.

It really looks a lot like this. It failed due to a lack of people that wanted to mod something.

Just my opinion.

Increasing the amount of BN could be nice, but, you, guys forgot that there is limit of qualified maps per day. I can see like 3 pages of bubbled maps in Pending map section, and that gives me much headache, really. A lot of maps are waiting for a very long time and that's not good to see that a map is still waiting for a BN check for 3 months for example.
Increasing the BN activity will flood everything with this current system, at least for std mode. The only thing I or we have to agree with is : We need more BNs for taiko, ctb and osu!mania mode.

Moreover, i'd like to say something you, everyone should keep in mind. Learn what is fairness and stop circlejerking. Increasing the amount of BNs is nice, but increasing the amount of BNs that circlejerk isnt. (true example : the story of the CTB map qualified by someone not experienced at all in CTB mode), and that exemple really shows that we need more BNs for this mode.

Nominating whatever we want is encouraged, but there are limits, and a lot of BNs are abusing with that. If they were not abusing of that, things could be better today concerning this system, and the whole atmosphere between BNs.

So Cherry Blossom, what you are trying to say is that recruiting should be done mode-specific?
That would actually be a lot better.

edit: maybe there should be a way to encourage modders/BN's to learn another gamemode too. Some kind of reward system for helping out the gamemodes that actually need bn's.

Many BN are actually capable of multiple modes
Yuii, Std/CtB
Ozzy, Std/Tk
Xinely, Std/CtB
Julie, Tk/OM
Shione, Tk/OM
Me, Std/Tk
Just to name a few

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Learn what is fairness and stop circlejerking.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Learn what is fairness

Cherry Blossom wrote:

and stop circlejerking.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

stop circlejerking.

looking at you o!m :>

But yeah I pretty much agree with everything Cherry Blossom has stated.

Can I still add my 2 cents to the circlejerk or something because I just really wanted to say that I got denied for BN for not being active enough like half a year ago, although I did at least 4 mods a month or something.

To apply you need 8 per month
And 180 kudosu (you can have higher activity --Lower kudosu and vice versa though)

Ayu wrote:

Can I still add my 2 cents to the circlejerk or something because I just really wanted to say that I got denied for BN for not being active enough like half a year ago, although I did at least 4 mods a month or something.

You probably needed 1-2 more mods per month, given your kudosu count. And, if I did get the formula right (similar to that of the old BNG), constant activity was benefited since each month had it's own logarithm (e.g. it's better to have 6-6-6 mods than 8-5-5). Less speculation, it would be good if the formula was made public.

ZiRoX wrote:

Ayu wrote:

Can I still add my 2 cents to the circlejerk or something because I just really wanted to say that I got denied for BN for not being active enough like half a year ago, although I did at least 4 mods a month or something.

You probably needed 1-2 more mods per month, given your kudosu count. And, if I did get the formula right (similar to that of the old BNG), constant activity was benefited since each month had it's own logarithm (e.g. it's better to have 6-6-6 mods than 8-5-5). Less speculation, it would be good if the formula was made public.

Or just everyone's score
That't be helpful as well (then people know if they reach 1200 or nit)

dudes

1. go to the old bn ranking t h i s o n e
2. make a local copy of it
3. go to "all sheets" in the bottom left and select the hidden candidate sheet
4. enter your values
5. see for yourself if you can enter or not
6. yay!

the formula is public but apparently not public enough, what Baraatje said previously is wonky and won't apply in all cases and you can actually make sure yourself this way

do i need to make a picture tutorial or do i need to calm down

I cant get mad because like all of the discussion is relevant but like meh.

While i agree with the points made, especially about the BN having to accomodate to limitations of the system, it still is mega frustrating that I cant rejoin the team even though I was literally one of the highest ranked on the team.

Like its totes my fault for quitting I guess but meh.

Id personally like to see more progress being made to make the limitations more leniant. I know that the 6 map limit was made to reduce server stress, but I think we should instead look at ways to better improve the servers so that more players can contribute. Its a little unfortunate that many people are stuck in the "oops showed up too late" kinda thing when they sometimes exceed the quality of some members of the team and would have strong and rmeaningful contributions.

I will literally fucking do what I can to pay for a new server for osu! just to increase the limit so qualified and dedicated members can have the ability to contribute in the ranking lf maps, especially since the goal is to achieve a community based modding system.

Ive been having a really shitty few days and im trying not to sound like a whiny bitch, but uhhhh, yeah.

Reditum wrote:

I cant get mad because like all of the discussion is relevant but like meh.

While i agree with the points made, especially about the BN having to accomodate to limitations of the system, it still is mega frustrating that I cant rejoin the team even though I was literally one of the highest ranked on the team.

Like its totes my fault for quitting I guess but meh.

Id personally like to see more progress being made to make the limitations more leniant. I know that the 6 map limit was made to reduce server stress, but I think we should instead look at ways to better improve the servers so that more players can contribute. Its a little unfortunate that many people are stuck in the "oops showed up too late" kinda thing when they sometimes exceed the quality of some members of the team and would have strong and rmeaningful contributions.

I will literally fucking do what I can to pay for a new server for osu! just to increase the limit so qualified and dedicated members can have the ability to contribute in the ranking lf maps, especially since the goal is to achieve a community based modding system.

Ive been having a really shitty few days and im trying not to sound like a whiny bitch, but uhhhh, yeah.

The cause of the limit isn't server load. Don't bring the wrath of the superiors plz

Well
Perhaps the cap can go to 8-9 as each QAT works individually
A map of mine got DQ'd in 3 hours because it works this way now
Not after 5-6 days like before

The thing is that some mapsets require quite more in-depth looks to find DQ'able issues.

Personally I'm fine with the 6 cap /even though I've been stolen the slots several times lmao/

Anyway let's see how this goes...

Since there is a daily limit for the maps the BNs can rank why not starting to mod already bubbled maps?
What I mean is, that since you can't do much to qualify new maps and since there are already a bunch of bubbled maps, why not having those bubbled mapsets checked by more BNs?
Who said that once a BN makes a check he/she needs to place a sort of icon or whatever. If more of them check the mapset before actually getting it qualified there are less chances to get it DQ'd. If I remember correctly, last time I looked at the formula for the BN score there was also a value for the contribution on the mapset (modding) which means that you can keep your score even by helping out with one mapset (I'm referring to the last version of it, the one posted by p3n)

At this point, I'd rather increase the number of bubbles needed to qualify a mapset since there are more BNs. I know this is a bit extreme since the system works pretty fine already, but it's just to throw some sort of idea in here, maybe it generates a better one in the future

And yeah, the system needs a better activity log about each BN, just to keep the system working at a constant pace (tbh I dunno about what it can be made on the site, but I guess there is some way to do it)

I'll keep watching and see what the future will bring us~

MrSergio wrote:

Since there is a daily limit for the maps the BNs can rank why not starting to mod already bubbled maps?
What I mean is, that since you can't do much to qualify new maps and since there are already a bunch of bubbled maps, why not having those bubbled mapsets checked by more BNs?
Who said that once a BN makes a check he/she needs to place a sort of icon or whatever. If more of them check the mapset before actually getting it qualified there are less chances to get it DQ'd. If I remember correctly, last time I looked at the formula for the BN score there was also a value for the contribution on the mapset (modding) which means that you can keep your score even by helping out with one mapset (I'm referring to the last version of it, the one posted by p3n)

I really want to see more of this, but the current system doesn't put enough of an incentive towards bubble-popping or checking bubbled maps for this to be effective. Additionally, there seems to be some social stigma towards bubble-popping between BN's.

Currently, if you bubble-pop a map, you are obligated to rebubble. I say "obligation" because you don't have to rebubble, but it's considered rude because by bubble-popping you are kind of sending an (unintentional) message to the other BN(s) involved in bubbling. For example, something like "You aren't doing your job well enough because I found these errors etc..." It's fine if a QAT points these problems out because QAT's and BN's are two different groups, and QAT's are "higher up". It's more understandable if it's a QAT. Buf if it's a BN, it can send the wrong message, and it can also lead to "more-experienced" BN's bullying newer BN's who they view as incompetent (and believe me, I've seen this kind of stuff happen).

Not all BN's have the same opinion on mapping quality too. Even if the objectively unrankable issue found in the beatmap is fixed, it doesn't mean a BN is willing to rebubble. Perhaps the quality is not up to their personal standards. However, this can also send the wrong message to the first BN... something like "Your standards are too low," or "You could have put in more time to modding and improving the quality of this map before bubbling it." I can see this causing BN's to second-guess themselves and potentially not even being willing to rebubble a map. (Is that wrong? Not entirely... but it's certainly not going to be fun for the owner of the mapset)

One possible solution could be to allow BN's the option to either bubble a map upon bubble-popping, or repair the bubble on a map. They sound the same, so let me explain the two scenarios:

If BN 1 bubbles, and BN 2 bubble pops, but BN 2 doesn't think the map is ready, BN 2 can repair the bubble set by BN 1 after objectively unrankable issues are fixed. BN 2 will receive contribution points but not any penalties should the map get dq'ed. BN 1 will have their bubble restored, but the mapper will need to find BN 3 to rank the map. (Interesting to note, in the current system, BN 1 will receive the contribution points, but not any penalties since his/her bubble was overwritten by BN 2's. This really should be the other way around imo).

If BN 1 bubbles, and BN 2 bubbles pops (for some unrankable issue), but believes that the map is of high quality, they can (re)bubble the map instead. Because of this, BN 1 can now rank the map because BN 2 has also decided he/she wants to push the mapset forward rather than simply contribute through modding/finding errors. This is basically the system we have right now except most BN's will just post their mod without a bubble-pop icon (even if unrankable stuff is found, cuz no one enforces this rule).

it'd be helpful if the system was based on quality not quantity haha quality post right here

basically what I'm saying is is that I agree with the reason that I didn't get in, because I wasn't active enough. But on the other hand, I was more active than like, half of the BN's? Not to mention that my modding quality was also higher than most. It's quite frustrating to see that the requirements are kinda backfiring.

yeah What happened with quality mod like old times?. When there was professional modders

Ayu wrote:

it'd be helpful if the system was based on quality not quantity

*Just mod like a robot, you don't have to know how to map or be good at modding. Sorry I have to write it u.u*

monstrata wrote:

Currently, if you bubble-pop a map, you are obligated to rebubble. I say "obligation" because you don't have to rebubble, but it's considered rude because by bubble-popping you are kind of sending an (unintentional) message to the other BN(s) involved in bubbling. For example, something like "You aren't doing your job well enough because I found these errors etc..." It's fine if a QAT points these problems out because QAT's and BN's are two different groups, and QAT's are "higher up". It's more understandable if it's a QAT. Buf if it's a BN, it can send the wrong message, and it can also lead to "more-experienced" BN's bullying newer BN's who they view as incompetent (and believe me, I've seen this kind of stuff happen).

Didn't Loctav gave a warning of punishment to that kind of behavior?

monstrata wrote:

Currently, if you bubble-pop a map, you are obligated to rebubble. I say "obligation" because you don't have to rebubble, but it's considered rude because by bubble-popping you are kind of sending an (unintentional) message to the other BN(s) involved in bubbling. For example, something like "You aren't doing your job well enough because I found these errors etc..." It's fine if a QAT points these problems out because QAT's and BN's are two different groups, and QAT's are "higher up". It's more understandable if it's a QAT. Buf if it's a BN, it can send the wrong message, and it can also lead to "more-experienced" BN's bullying newer BN's who they view as incompetent (and believe me, I've seen this kind of stuff happen).

As far as I remember, there weren't any issues with rebubbles and reranking a map if the "errors" are considered as very minimal where it doesn't change the map drastically. Its a minor setback, but nothing to shed tears on. But now it seems quite shunned upon and leaves some mappers in the dark for a long while before they get another BN to recheck it properly. Just breaking a bubble with a "you suck at modding" attitude is just asking for another flamewar where it shouldn't exist. Especially when the one that breaks the bubble only pops it but never bothers to recheck and replace it.

Anyways, there's a few things i'll say as well. I may be an old retired BAT/GMT, but don't treat Alumni as an outcast of the past as if we don't know what we're talking about. Staff shouldn't be completely separated based on titles and name colors.

First, when it comes to activity, yes its one of the major factors of being a BN or QAT. But what about the quality of the mods and the effort put into them? Normally, before a bubble or rank is made, those making the choice to have the map "ready to play" would check from the first line of meta in the .osu file down to the last inherited timing mark in the timeline. Even to check for missing or unnecessary files to keep the folders clear of clutter. But lately, i've noted that the critical mod posts were lacking a lot of things which eventually led to the rush of high DQ rates that is actually worse than the "obsolete past". And within those critical mod posts, there's very little communication between the team and more of a solo mission on knowing when a map is ready to rank. Back then, BATs and MATs were more directly in contact with the mappers which helped ease the tension in terms of knowing who to talk to with what needs to be addressed and how fast things can be taken care of. Even if that BAT or MAT couldn't mod Taiko properly for example, they can always get a fellow member that has experience with that gamemode to do co-op modding (and yes, that idea existed before too). I like the idea of getting those that are experienced in other game modes, but it shouldn't have to be only that as CTB, Taiko, and Mania is not for everyone. Some people can still fall far from being "experienced" enough to mod it and even farther if forced to learn in such a short time. This could leave those that want to work hard but only limited to standard out of luck.

Another thing, which i'm going to suggest again is some retraining for the BNs and QATs. I'm not calling them stupid or anything for missing stuff, but when people see a person with a title of a BN or QAT, they're going to expect them to know a lot so it never hurts to be knowledgeable with modding and the logic of beatmapping. Maybe a mentoring system can work as it was done before, but to have 2 ~ 5 out of the +40 actually able to mod for example isn't good for the results of such productivity in the end of each month. I really don't want to hear another "been there, done that" reply when it can be improved or reapplied. If the BN (or worse, QAT) refuses to keep the work at least decently consistent or better, then it would be more of a risk of quality of the beatmaps to the point even the most simple mistakes could make people lose more faith in the system like: DQ'd for a difficulty missing a video, DQ'd for 2 unsnapped notes, DQ'd for wrong offset, DQ'd for wrong Source/Artist, DQ'd cause this section needs color hax to see properly, and such. Also, some of the DQ's appeared to be more of an "attack" on mapper's styles than actual issues without much technical understanding or trying to take the time to sit with the mapper one on one to figure things out.

Last, in terms of nominations, those that don't make it could at least be given a reason why they didn't make it besides activity reasons. Ignoring the attempt to at least send a "did not pass because-" message leaves the potential BN who's trying hard to be one left in confusion and hurt because they don't know what to work on. I know there must be at least 100 PMs or applications and more, but if you still want to have BNs and future QATs willing to help, at least helping them address their weaknesses is the first step to make things easier for everyone.

Not sure what else to say since i'm not feeling too great to think of much.......

Cherry Blossom wrote:

the story of the CTB map qualified by someone not experienced at all in CTB mode), and that exemple really shows that we need more BNs for this mode.

yes you should know more about the ctb community, see if there is one bn of CtB mode is willing to rank that map, and imagine if no one rank your map, what will you do.

I thought this stuff was supposed to be automatic by now

Sync wrote:

I thought this stuff was supposed to be automatic by now

You shouldn't be surprised that it isn't.

As long as the BN ranking doesn't exist, this can't really go automatically

monstrata wrote:

text

Honestly if BNs make a fuss about their bubbles being popped and start to call other BNs names then I don't know what to say. Get your shit straight, you might've done a mistake, it happens. There is absolutely no objective reason to put the blame on a BN who popped your bubble, it's part of their job too. This whole thing should not be.

whymeman wrote:

more text

I heard from certain sources that BNs are now meticulously selected by the higher ups by judging the quality of their mods and stuff. Also heard they've rejected quite a few applications due to them not meeting the required standards (and accepted none so far, over the span of a few months). I assume the same was done even earlier with QATs, so this in theory shouldn't be an issue anymore as they wouldn't accept mediocre modders who put quantity over quality in the BN/QAT ranks.

Yes I realize that is vague as f*ck but I have reasons to believe this is not far from what's really happening.

PyaKura wrote:

Honestly if BNs make a fuss about their bubbles being popped and start to call other BNs names then I don't know what to say. Get your shit straight, you might've done a mistake, it happens. There is absolutely no objective reason to put the blame on a BN who popped your bubble, it's part of their job too. This whole thing should not be.

That's it.

PyaKura wrote:

I heard from certain sources that BNs are now meticulously selected by the higher ups by judging the quality of their mods and stuff. Also heard they've rejected quite a few applications due to them not meeting the required standards (and accepted none so far, over the span of a few months). I assume the same was done even earlier with QATs, so this in theory shouldn't be an issue anymore as they wouldn't accept mediocre modders who put quantity over quality in the BN/QAT ranks.
Yes I realize that is vague as f*ck but I have reasons to believe this is not far from what's really happening.

and yes, you are right here, that's not a secret

PyaKura wrote:

text

The problem is, at least from what i'm seeing, what happens after the issues in the mapset have been fixed. The whole bubble-popping/rebubbling process is quite awkward atm when it shouldn't be as bubble-popping is also a part of the job too. I've yet to bubble pop any map, and sadly, I doubt i'll ever do so with the current system . There is a lot of commitment involved in the process right now, and no reward for doing so (because it seems the bonus BN score from bubble-popping is no longer in effect with the upcoming system).

People tell me that BN's are selected based on an anonymous voting system where QAT's review the 3 mods submitted by BN Applicants and the mods who receive the most votes based on the overall quality and professionalism of the mods will be accepted into the BNG. This seems the most reasonable system anyways. Acceptance based solely on BN score seems way too lax imo... Either way, there was obviously a major change in the selection system because when was the last time 24 people were accepted into the BNG? lol

monstrata wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

text

Either way, there was obviously a major change in the selection system because when was the last time 24 people were accepted into the BNG? lol

That was the last month which used the 15 votes by staff and other BNs to be considered to enter. That needed more than just the score, they needed votes of trusts.

Baraatje123 wrote:

As long as the BN ranking doesn't exist, this can't really go automatically

More like this system was implemented poorly and seems rushed tbh.

I haven't been here for a long time while all the changes happened, but I can tell that not much changed since 2012 and onwards. People get a status of priviledge, then right after that some of them get cocky and don't do jackshit stating that they are "busy" for whatever reason, only modding maps at their own accord. The same happened with MATs and BATs.

I really hope whoever works in this project that makes it better for anyone...

Mercurial wrote:

Baraatje123 wrote:

As long as the BN ranking doesn't exist, this can't really go automatically

More like this system was implemented poorly and seems rushed tbh.

I haven't been here for a long time while all the changes happened, but I can tell that not much changed since 2012 and onwards. People get a status of priviledge, then right after that some of them get cocky and don't do jackshit stating that they are "busy" for whatever reason, only modding maps at their own accord. The same happened with MATs and BATs.

I really hope whoever works in this project that makes it better for anyone...

hey, what's done is done. After the new major release of web and game, better fix and rebuild everything, even the progress is quite slow, but sure. (Suggestion :3/)

Things that have been done wrong need to be fixed before moving forward. Keeping things moving forward and let wrong things left behind will cause more problems

sorry for my bad english if you notice ;w;

lidahapi wrote:

hey, what's done is done. After the new major release of web and game, better fix and rebuild everything, even the progress is quite slow, but sure.

The management staff doesn't work at developing the game, so your point is wrong.

Well, I just noticed this, it's true that I wanna quit BN but not yet, I guess it was a misunderstanding due to my userpage, because I thought "yes, I'll quit" but well I didn't say when so I guess it was my fault x__x

Anyways... I'm still modding eventually, I know just a bit but it's just because I'm not 24/7 here like before, but I still play/mod and also I won't stop creating beatmaps of course. I know it was my fault because I should've said when I'm ready to quit, it's true that on the one hand I'm a bit tired and I have irl stuff/problems but on the other hand I still like modding and giving icons to maps so yeah I'm still here, it's just that I didn't expect this because I didn't plan to quit yet.

In conclusion, if you feel like I don't have place here anymore, go ahead, and I might try to rejoin when I'm able to. I just wanted to post my opinion too, you're free to kick me anyways, yeah I know I've said it would be nice still being here but if you feel like more people can join and mod even more like me just go ahead ;_;

Well juast a bit of insight for when we get this all cleaned up, the team sizes will not go over current sizes. So when we do fix this up we will get things moving again.

PyaKura wrote:

I heard from certain sources that BNs are now meticulously selected by the higher ups by judging the quality of their mods and stuff. Also heard they've rejected quite a few applications due to them not meeting the required standards (and accepted none so far, over the span of a few months). I assume the same was done even earlier with QATs, so this in theory shouldn't be an issue anymore as they wouldn't accept mediocre modders who put quantity over quality in the BN/QAT ranks.

Yes I realize that is vague as f*ck but I have reasons to believe this is not far from what's really happening.

As long as it doesn't turn into another "speed over quality" incident again, then that's fine. But one thing which has to be considered still is that usually around 3 months, a good amount of BNs and QATs don't have the free time to keep up with the workload and would either be on hiatus or forced to quit due to personal life stuff. Usually when that happens, there would be "we need more BNs and QATs!" complaints as people would look at 4 or so pages of bubbles. When those times happen, consideration needs to be there on how to handle it.

Also, the "mediocre modders" that failed to make it in previously could work on improving themselves for the next round if they have an idea with what to work on when they are notified they didn't make it besides only activity reasons. Like, you can't have a person that can mod *perfectly* with finding issues in design, but can't even check the timing to save themselves. Timing normally is a must when modding a map. Even if it seems right, it doesn't hurt to check it if you get that "gut feeling".

Loctav wrote:

The purge was scheduled for Wesnesday this week already anyways.

Happy thursday.

Nice purge, though.