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[Rule Change] Lowest diff must be below 2.0 stars(Taiko&ctb)

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Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
Yes, yes and thousands of times yes. The SR in Taiko (specially low difficulties) makes no sense at all. It does not rate density, it does rate beat snappings. A 180 bpm with few 3/2s in a Kantan (which are totally necessary due to the nature of a song) is harder in terms of SR than a 220 bpm Kantan mainly snapped to main beats?? That doesn't make any sense.

This rule, in my view, disables songs with weird rhythms (such as Breakcore) from being mapped since an easy difficulty cannot be made below 2* without losing a considerable amount of quality.


+1000000 Ono and Gezo
Last edited by Raiden , edited 1 time in total.
Dark Espeon
59 posts
Joined September 2011
Dark Espeon
Hoo boy! Finally, more rules for ranking taiko maps! Maybe now we'll finally have more mods.
HashishKabob
254 posts
Joined September 2011
HashishKabob
This makes complete sense. It's very challenging to map easy diffs that fit into the current criteria, whilst also being viable in terms of actual difficulty spread. It almost forces mappers to create difficulties that fit the criteria, instead of creating maps that have smooth bridges from one difficulty into the next. It's extremely challenging for a mapper like myself to determine which is the appropriate course of action: do I map to create difficulties fitting to the song, or do I map to create star ratings for difficulties to fit ranking criteria? Not an easy choice to make. Not a wise choice to make.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I know I once mapped a 150 3:18 min Futsuu
300 objects, kiai had quite some 3/4, it became over 3 stars. It was just 0.05 less then muzu, which had almost 700 notes, mostly 1/2 triplets and 1/2 "streams"
YES PLEASE
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
This seems to be a problem more related to the star rating system rather than the ranking criteria itself. Just saying this from what I have read in this thread about the odd behaviour of the way star difficulty is calculated. May I ask why taiko pp cant be changed any time soon?
Recipient
7 posts
Joined January 2014
Recipient
I thought Mania was the only gamemode with a good-for-nothing SR system, but I guess I was wrong.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
Please keep posts in here to actual discussion, not just snarky side comments [/MicroModding]

Anyways, i feel this should be a guideline. It happens in osu!standard in the opposite way, where the lowest difficulty is under 2 stars, but is unsuitable for the lowest diff. BN, in a system that actually works, SHOULD be able to generally determine if a diff is too hard or easy for players in relation to the son. Otherwise they shouldnt be in a position to rank maps.

2.0 is a good guideline to set, but if a map is easy enough and determined so by the QAT and BNs, there should be mo reason to restrict it.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Mania's SR is heavily keycount-dependant. CTB is correct in terms of lower diffs though (Krah told me).

As the one who brought the topic (along with Raiden) about this, I think this starts to be a very huge problem. I've detailed why such things happen easily for easier difficulties, that makes them impossible to fit under the current criterion, especially if the song is fast, and has non-standard beats. Some songs are almost forced to have no diffs below 2.0 stars due to the way they're constructed, without ruining either the quality or the spread. I currently do not have a good rewording in mind, but it would be something along these lines:

The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko mode. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.

Not the best proposal I have ever done, but I think you get the idea.
Spy
2,538 posts
Joined November 2011
Spy
Mania with Star rating is broken, honestly.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
If you can provide examples on how Mania's star rating is broken about easier difficulties, we might extend to other modes.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
RIP [Shoshinsha] hahaha.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
In terms of taiko, not any other game modes. SR is absolutely broken at low levels. 1/2 rhythm and 3/4 gaps are weighted too heavily and can take your map from a 1.50 too a 2.00 in 2 or 3 patterns.

2.00 can be a guideline, but if we want a definitive number, under 2.25 should be fine until taiko SR is fixed.
Mercurial
Mercurial
Rule? Hell no.

Guideline? Yes, no problem with that.
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
I still don´t understand why the star rating calculation can´t be changed instead of the rules. Anyone care to elaborate on this please?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@Xanandra: There are other projects like osu!next or the ranking system with higher priority. Hence, I purpose for the time being either a rule change or the change into a guideline for Taiko.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

_Gezo_ wrote:

Mania's SR is heavily keycount-dependant. CTB is correct in terms of lower diffs though (Krah told me).

As the one who brought the topic (along with Raiden) about this, I think this starts to be a very huge problem. I've detailed why such things happen easily for easier difficulties, that makes them impossible to fit under the current criterion, especially if the song is fast, and has non-standard beats. Some songs are almost forced to have no diffs below 2.0 stars due to the way they're constructed, without ruining either the quality or the spread. I currently do not have a good rewording in mind, but it would be something along these lines:

The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko mode. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.

Not the best proposal I have ever done, but I think you get the idea.
Since this concerns general Ranking Criteria, here's my little addition:

The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.

Currently, the 2.0 stars minimum doesn't apply to CtB, so it should be stated as an exception too. It also adds more consistency to the rule regarding CtB spreads.
Marirose
1,121 posts
Joined September 2012
Marirose
Mania with Star rating is broken, honestly.
↑yes
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

_Gezo_ wrote:

Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah

_Gezo_ wrote:

CTB is correct in terms of lower diffs though (Krah told me).
Not exactly
CtB sr is correct for lower diffs when you have to compare them.
But the number itself is still broken and tend to be more than what it should be and it's why the 2stars isn't a rule for us.
-Squishy
58 posts
Joined May 2014
-Squishy

_Gezo_ wrote:

Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
I find this quite hilarious. You want an example on both ends of the spectrum?

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/310593 = 7 star map, should be worth 1-2 stars

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/372569&m=3 i dare u to try and pass this 0 star song with ht+ez
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/153743 maybe something alittle bit easier?

bottom line, do your research before posting.
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy

_Gezo_ wrote:

Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Are you kidding me? Mania is by far the most broken in terms of star rating. Let's compare some maps for a sec:
Speedcore 300: 5.79*
The Empress: 5.81*
Speedcore 300 is S rankable by decent mania players, and the only aspect of the song is how fast you can mash. The Empress is S rankable by only the best 4k players. In the time that it was qualified, very few players had S ranks, and there were even very few A ranks. Taking myself for an example, I can gt 98.5% on Speedcore 300, but only 87% on The Empress. Need more examples?
Everlasting Message: 5.35*, Baby Sweet Berry Love (3R2 Remix): 5.31*
Fiat Lux: 5.19*
Everlasting Message is a 7k map that can be S ranked by people who barely even play 7k. Baby Sweet Berry Love is also a very easy 7k map that again, non experienced 7k players can score high on. Both of these maps are very overrated because they have a large number of 4-5 note chords (everlasting Message) or very simple dense patterns (Baby Sweet Berry Love). Fiat Lux on the other hand, is tough to even get an A rank on. Only very skilled 7k players can S rank it. It is full of very difficult patterns at 200 bpm.

If this isn't convincing enough, I could list off a bunch more ranked maps. Oh, and should I bring up unranked maps?
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/530698&m=3
The 4k map of this set is 7.3*, but most of the song consists of spamming jumptrills (which btw inflate the star rating a LOT).

If you want me to bring up more examples, I will.

Also I can confirm that the 7* map that SquishyKorean brought up is insanely easy and realistically only 2* in diff. It is all 7 note chords, which inflate the sr. Mania sr is determined by density of notes, not difficulty of patterns.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
I got just the information that the mania ranking will be patched (no idea when). So there are no examples needed at all.

But for taiko I have been told to make a well working draft for the ranking change. So I lable this as taiko specific thing.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

Gekido- wrote:

Speedcore 300: 5.79*
The Empress: 5.81*
Everlasting Message: 5.35*
Baby Sweet Berry Love (3R2 Remix): 5.31*
Fiat Lux: 5.19*
Just saying:
Lowest diff must be below 2.0 stars
Higher diffs are disregarded....

Anyway it has been switched to taiko only.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

_Gezo_ wrote:

Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Guess why I had to remove the Easy diff from my End Time set.
Yup, that's right, 1/1 rhythm is definitely not fitting those long piano parts at 180BPM. I had to remove so many notes to get it under 1,5* it was looking ridiculously and retardedly boring, even for a beginner diff. Using 1/2s for those streams ? Would have done the trick if the broken SR didn't skyrocket the thing to 2+ stars.

And yes the mania SR is undergoing changes (errr iirc Smooogi is on it) though we do not have an ETA yet. So far the new algorithm seems to be doing great, or a lot better than currently according to those involved.

err i'll stop derailing the thread ok
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
What I shall recommend is to make another thread about it? Starry told me it should stay 2.0 for now.
Back to the Taiko topic, 2.25 seems good as a limit. Anything above will require a difficulty shift.
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
ayy..

when it comes with below 2.0 stars, i believe many osu!mania mappers is just too lazy to map Easy diff.. people are whining when they map Normal diffs above 2.0 stars, then when disqualification happens, they blame the RC, but they don't want to map Easy diff..
there's no prove that in mania, EASY diff exceed 2.0 stars.. so stop being lazy mappers & start making Easy diff.. simple as that..

for taiko itself, i support this..

side note : its bait
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
In Kantan d d k k d is worth like 0.2 SR over d k d k d lololol.

And using any blue ticks in a low bpm futsuu gets you a hard icon with how much it spikes it. gg
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
random question : is it possible to fix taiko SR calculation? seeing so many people complaining about it? '-'
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Atm not under restruction and will take some time until it will be changed. That's why this purposal has been posted.

The question is now whether we go for a fixed value (e.g. 2.25) or let this decide upon BN/QAT.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,913 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system

so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden

Okoratu wrote:

i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system

so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Provisional solution

until SR system gets fixed in Taiko at least I guess
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

Okoratu wrote:

i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system

so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Yeah, that was my concern. While it can be subjective, in Taiko we normaly have clear borders when a Futsuu / Kantan becomes too hard. So I would entrust this rather to BN / QAT instead of some fixed value again.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Alright, as there are several Taiko sets which suffer under this 2.0* rule, I give a suggestion how the rule can look in future. Just added the line "(Taiko excluded)":

Ranking Criteria wrote:

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert
change to

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars (Taiko excluded). The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert

so the evaluation of appropriate lower difficulties is upon (taiko capable-)BNs and QATs.
Hanjamon
1,461 posts
Joined June 2012
Hanjamon
I agree with this, hope to see this approved
tasuke912
Former osu!taiko Champion: 2018
1,347 posts
Joined June 2013
tasuke912
i agree with this!
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
I have already commented this, but I guess it doesn't hurt to do so again.

Yes, I think letting the evaluation of lower difficulties to the competent nominators/QATs is the best solution we can take for now.
Akiyama Mizuki
2,710 posts
Joined March 2009
Akiyama Mizuki
This must be implimented. We do really need this, SR rarely means a thing
Surono
7,195 posts
Joined November 2013
Surono
SR will fit this.. ww
Kurokotei
Featured Artist
1,648 posts
Joined June 2010
Kurokotei
I totally support this, star rating isn't really relevent on Taiko as you can easily overrate a diff by only adding 3/2
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