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Igorrr - Pavor Nocturnus [2015]

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grumd
already did that dangit l2 redl
:C

  1. 01:03:554 (1) - did you fix this slider's position after moving (3)? i think you should fix this spacing
  2. > I know and I really did this on purpose cause the guitar is really overwhelming the song more than the drums here
    Yeah I didn't listen to the guitar indeed.
  3. > For this sound I either used 1/16 or just plain 1/2, shouldn't be too confusing, haven't seen anyone breaking on them yet either
    You just didn't see me playing xD I always break the combo on those for some reason. Maybe just didn't hold the button enough.
  4. 03:58:733 (7) -
    > It does feel like a better lead in/outro/buildup whatever to call it to go into the slower part, removing that note kinda removes that tension
    Actually in my opinion this works like this: 03:58:302 (2,3,4,5,6) - You have a drum pattern right here, usual 5-ple Igorrr uses all the time, and then there's a tiny pause before the buildup with a strong vocal and bass. You can hear how well are basses playing with the vocal on this triple: 03:58:820 (8,9,1) -
    These two patterns are quite different thus the pause between them builds up the tension and the power of the upcoming triple, making it a better intro in the next section. Just my opinion though. (I'd even stack the triple, feels even better).
  5. I think I still missed some parts like around 02:59:940 - where you'd better add some additional wizz sliders (sound there is pretty loud indeed), but I guess it's still fine as is.
Good job, man, now I feel this map is a lot better :)
I just commented some of your fixes, maybe you'd like to fix a couple more little things I pointed out, but that's more like just a comment/recheck.
I'd approve this now if I could :)
grumd
I just testplayed your diff again and I was hitting a lot of 50s and sliderbreaks on 1/16 sliders, so I tried to understand why this happens.
And I understood.
Basically, at this BPM a 1/16 beat is 22 ms. You can check it on your own.
And according to this table at OD9 you will get a 100 if you exceed 24 ms window.
So, basically, it's harder to hit a 1/16 slider without a sliderbreak than to hit a 300 circle.
If you start hitting the 1/16 slider 22 ms later than intended, then you're going to miss the first circle and the first repeat as well, which results in a sliderbreak.
You will get a sliderbreak if you hit the slider start with an accuracy for just a 100-ish hit. Does it deserve to break the combo?
That's really not any good. This means that anyone who can't hit a good 98% accuracy will be forced to break the combo at those 1/16 sliders pretty often.
But if you use a 1/8 slider, the hit window is doubled, making it 44 ms which is a lot better (almost like a 100 window for OD5-6).
I think you must change 1/16 sliders to 1/8, otherwise it's quite unplayable for most non-pro players.
ComfyWolf


Ok regarding my SB, I'd just like to say a few things to anyone reading.

Thank you very much Kyshiro for letting me do the SB for the first map I've worked on that will most likely get ranked in the coming days, ESPECIALLY since you could've just fixed the mapping instead of brainstorming with me for 7+ HOURS to see how both of our wants for the SB can come together in what I'd make.

Oh and I wouldn't recommend playing the 1/8 flashes starting at the second kiai on repeat, it'll really start to hurt after a while. ;)

Other then that, I hope you guys enjoyed it :)
VINXIS
Great map!
Shiguri

Mishima Yurara wrote:

Great map!
Erishtar

Shiguri wrote:

Mishima Yurara wrote:

Great map!
Secretpipe
rerank ty
ComfyWolf

Secretpipe wrote:

rerank ty
I'm hoping the map gets ranked. I think Kyshiro is just doing some stuff.

I would get a hold of him but he never seems to be online when I am. :?
Sonnyc

Krfawy wrote:

Not so fast Kyshirowetteriterino

Popped the bubble for an unused ".osb" file, call me back for a rebubble!
WOW LMFAO

It's been years when "remove unused .osb file" modding has got encouraged to be gone p/557573

and a bubble pop has happened because of nothing.
DeletedUser_4329079
Nice map
Topic Starter
Kyshiro
ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy lmao

regarding the 1/16 sliders grumd mentioned, I've had a lot of people testplay it again, and I played it myself a couple of times as well, they really don't seem to be a bother, in fact i havent seen anyone breaking on them.

So, let's finish dis
ComfyWolf

Kyshiro wrote:

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy lmao

regarding the 1/16 sliders grumd mentioned, I've had a lot of people testplay it again, and I played it myself a couple of times as well, they really don't seem to be a bother, in fact i havent seen anyone breaking on them.

So, let's finish dis
\o/
Topic Starter
Kyshiro

ComfyWolf wrote:

Kyshiro wrote:

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy lmao

regarding the 1/16 sliders grumd mentioned, I've had a lot of people testplay it again, and I played it myself a couple of times as well, they really don't seem to be a bother, in fact i havent seen anyone breaking on them.

So, let's finish dis
\o/
such stalkerino
Krfawy
OD9.3 should be used here but Kyshiro doesn't care about pp farmers. #BLAMEKYSHIRO2015




#1
Topic Starter
Kyshiro

Krfawy wrote:

OD9.3 should be used here but Kyshiro doesn't care about pp farmers. #BLAMEKYSHIRO2015




#1
ThankKKKKK83
A Mystery
Oh booyyyy
undo

Musty wrote:

baroquecore ftw
Topic Starter
Kyshiro
bbqcore
Irreversible
ayy lmoaaa #2
Charles445
Why are you using so many soft normals and whistles during streams at OD 9?
You know the soft whistle is an inherently delayed hitsound, right? Having to stream with that plus weak soft normals is never fun.

Second timing section sounds late in comparison to the first one, I found myself hitting early after the first break was over. Likely needs some tuning, I'm finding -3 / -4 on it but it's hard to hone in on it with the current hitsounding.

soft-hitclap69 is a large file because it has a bunch of silence after it, you could clip it down to the .300 mark and save literally 240kb on your download.

... also 02:50:712 (1,2) - 22ms repeats aren't fun due to the glitches they cause.
Topic Starter
Kyshiro
Going with that logic, no hitsounded map should be ranked, Plus the fact that 99% of the players who can actually play this use custom hitsounds, plus the fact that you should have a decent sense of rhythm by the time you're able to play this, plus the fact that I didn't know this and never even noticed it, I think it should be fine.

Timing I will check later

If reducing the filesize requires me to get 2 new bubbles, I will not because that system is absolute bullshit

What glitches? Haven't seen any ever before regarding those repeats and I'm pretty sure there's similar repeats used, and why would the option be there if it's not to be used, and aren't I supposed to follow the music lol


I think we should all stop taking this so serious, there's literally nothing wrong with the map (apart from the timing maybe, I have yet to check that), there's maps that require SO MUCH more work that get ranked and no one gives a flying fuck. Just get this over with and let it get approved tyvm

Mapping should be something to enjoy, not something to feel like you're in a god damn boot camp.
ComfyWolf

Kyshiro wrote:

Mapping should be something to enjoy, not something to feel like you're in a god damn boot camp.
o/ amen to that.
A Mystery

Charles445 wrote:

Why are you using so many soft normals and whistles during streams at OD 9?
You know the soft whistle is an inherently delayed hitsound, right? Having to stream with that plus weak soft normals is never fun.

Second timing section sounds late in comparison to the first one, I found myself hitting early after the first break was over. Likely needs some tuning, I'm finding -3 / -4 on it but it's hard to hone in on it with the current hitsounding.

soft-hitclap69 is a large file because it has a bunch of silence after it, you could clip it down to the .300 mark and save literally 240kb on your download.

... also 02:50:712 (1,2) - 22ms repeats aren't fun due to the glitches they cause.
The glitch Charles is talking about (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's more likely to miss on the slider than to hit it because the hitbox for not hitting too early or too late is larger than the time between the first hit and the slider-repeat after it. HOWEVER this has been around for ages and 1/16 sliders are used everywhere, hitting them on time really isn't that hard. Since Kyshiro doesn't use 1/16 sliders followed directly by other objects, he always leaves a nice space of at least 1/4 which makes it feel like the 1/16 return sliders are 1/2s you have to hold a little longer than usual, so this should be perfectly playable, even if the hitbox is pretty small.

I think the hitsounds are pretty nice and the drum samples fit nicely. I see Charles' point, but it's not like the default soft-hitnormal are good for giving correct feedback, at least not a lot better than the drum sample. The standard hitnormal for this map is the soft one so that should be alright anyway.


Kyshiro wrote:

Mapping should be something to enjoy, not something to feel like you're in a god damn boot camp.
I agree, but ranking a map is still a different story from actually enjoying mapping right?
Secretpipe
Re-Qualified!
ComfyWolf

Secretpipe wrote:

Re-Qualified!
YES \o/
Topic Starter
Kyshiro
I wasn't even here, but thanks secretpipe LOL

A Mystery wrote:

The glitch Charles is talking about (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's more likely to miss on the slider than to hit it because the hitbox for not hitting too early or too late is larger than the time between the first hit and the slider-repeat after it. HOWEVER this has been around for ages and 1/16 sliders are used everywhere, hitting them on time really isn't that hard. Since Kyshiro doesn't use 1/16 sliders followed directly by other objects, he always leaves a nice space of at least 1/4 which makes it feel like the 1/16 return sliders are 1/2s you have to hold a little longer than usual, so this should be perfectly playable, even if the hitbox is pretty small.

I think the hitsounds are pretty nice and the drum samples fit nicely. I see Charles' point, but it's not like the default soft-hitnormal are good for giving correct feedback, at least not a lot better than the drum sample. The standard hitnormal for this map is the soft one so that should be alright anyway.
This
DeletedUser_4329079
Grats!
fergas
Rhythms are kind of strange o.o Well... good luck on ranking!
Fezu
It's back :D
Yuii-
Nice! What a nice song and excellent beatmap.

By the way... http://puu.sh/lkgFL/5d451530a5.png ?
Topic Starter
Kyshiro

Yuii- wrote:

Nice! What a nice song and excellent beatmap.

By the way... http://puu.sh/lkgFL/5d451530a5.png ?
Thank you, and lol that's fine, the part's supposed to be regular soft sampleset, messed around with hitsounds a lot I forgot to remove sc:2 on the timing line, shouldn't matter as it reads the green line for the SV and hitsounds etc anyway.
Charles445
Wow, let's cover this again.

Kyshiro wrote:

Going with that logic, no hitsounded map should be ranked,
No, the issue isn't that hitsounds exist, it's that your hitsound is literally wasting a lot of disk space.
http://puu.sh/lkgAn/d9dbee46b5.png
Those are the two custom hitsounds. The top one is cropped properly, the second one isn't.
The smaller the filesize, the better.
It's not worth worrying about for stuff that's like, 1kb (osb) but for cutting an osz from 8.8mb to 8.6mb with minimal effort? That's worth it.

Kyshiro wrote:

Plus the fact that 99% of the players who can actually play this use custom hitsounds,
Mapsets are designed around stock settings, so if someone is displeased with stock settings, they can use overrides.
If you design around overrides, you mess it up for anyone who uses stock settings.
Not everyone will be using overrides when they play this.

Kyshiro wrote:

plus the fact that you should have a decent sense of rhythm by the time you're able to play this, plus the fact that I didn't know this and never even noticed it, I think it should be fine.
If you have a decent sense of rhythm, you'll notice the timing / hitsound issues even faster.

Kyshiro wrote:

Timing I will check later
So much for that.

Kyshiro wrote:

If reducing the filesize requires me to get 2 new bubbles, I will not because that system is absolute bullshit
It wouldn't require re-bubbles, but you didn't do it anyway.

Kyshiro wrote:

What glitches? Haven't seen any ever before regarding those repeats and I'm pretty sure there's similar repeats used, and why would the option be there if it's not to be used, and aren't I supposed to follow the music lol
The 1/16 feature was added in by woc along with 1/12 during development of the mania gamemode.
1/12 is incredibly useful as it allows sliders to extend from 1/4 to 1/3, and vice versa.
1/16 was never actually intended for standard, but it did help with incredibly rare snapping cases so it got to stay.

If you want an example of this glitch becoming an issue, here's some mapsets that I have personally heard players express concern with due to it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/17819 Fullcombo is rough due to the ending repeats. Very notorious map because of it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/5774 Smallest repeats in the game.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/27752 One of the more publicized versions of this glitch, the 1/8 repeats caused some top players at the time to rage.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/60136 This is an isolated repeat, which would theoretically be even easier than the ones in this pavor set. However, it still got in the way of players, especially during the HD HR craze on this, where top players were confused as to why this little repeat was such a hassle.

Note how this glitch was present even on 1/8 sliders. It's all about the time it takes to reach the first repeat.
In this map's case, it's 21-22 ms... That's really, really short.

Kyshiro wrote:

I think we should all stop taking this so serious, there's literally nothing wrong with the map (apart from the timing maybe, I have yet to check that), there's maps that require SO MUCH more work that get ranked and no one gives a flying fuck. Just get this over with and let it get approved tyvm
... do you really think that way about your own set? That there's nothing wrong, even if someone literally shows up telling you what's wrong?
Just three months ago you were open to advice on the same set. What happened?

Kyshiro wrote:

Mapping should be something to enjoy, not something to feel like you're in a god damn boot camp.
Remember that, at the end of it all, it won't be you enjoying the set, it'll be the thousands playing it.
The only thing ranking does is give a map more exposure and a scoreboard... so it effectively just gets other people to look at it and other people to play it.
So... ranking is for other people.
Ranking a map is for the audience, not the mapper.
Topic Starter
Kyshiro
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any help/tips/suggestions and of course I want my map to be as good as it can be but I don't have to sit here and be lectured by some random person on the internet, I am not 12.

I really don't believe the hitsounds will be an issue, no one has ever told me before about this either and I haven't noticed it myself.

The timing can easily be fixed by -4 online offset, I agree that's not the best way and I did intend to fix this before it got qualified, but I wasn't here while it happened.

As for the examples you gave, those are really old maps and the way the 1/8 and what not are used is far different as what I did, the ones I mapped do not cause breaks that easily and there's SO MANY recent maps that also use these kind of sliders without any issues. Don't get me wrong, I get that 21-22ms is short, but it appears to be enough.

And where I said there's nothing wrong with the map, I meant there isn't anything that breaks the rules or the game. Don't forget that I did ask a LOT of people to testplay it while it was pending and no one seemed to handle the 1/16 any different than 1/8 or 1/4 for that matter, and didn't cause strange breaks.

Again, I wasn't here while the map got qualified, I asked Secretpipe if he could re-qualify when my set was ready but I guess he misinterpreted it and qualified when he saw the 2nd bubble, though the only thing in my eyes that needs fixing is the offset, which can easily be applied with online offset.
WORSTPOLACKEU
Just for the record.
The 1/16 sliders - No problem there, they are very good and I never miss on them, if you play with the rhythm not LOLZ 420 PP scores then you will not have a problem. If you alternate them you won't have a problem, because that is basically emphasizing that part of the song and fits very well.

I never missed on those sliders and they play perfectly with the song.
VINXIS
but the hit window is smaller than od9 evn allows for it xd

i hit all of them in my first try ever on this and first play after 3 days today 2 but

u


k n o


edit: id assume that the majority of the ppl didnt bereak becuaase 200 bpm ar 9.3 isnt evn considered fast anymor so u have all these ppl that r tapping consistently faster than the "perfect accurate hit area aka the centre" so the hit window somehow manages to allow it because now the centre of their average hit isnt 0ms but rather something earlier like -5ms, which lets u hit it later than u normally wud b abl to Xd
ComfyWolf

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Just for the record.
The 1/16 sliders - No problem there, they are very good and I never miss on them, if you play with the rhythm not LOLZ 420 PP scores then you will not have a problem. If you alternate them you won't have a problem, because that is basically emphasizing that part of the song and fits very well.

I never missed on those sliders and they play perfectly with the song.
Continuing on what WORSTPOLACKEU said, I feel that, aesthetically, removing the 1/16 sliders would be removing one of most defining dynamics of the song. These sliders are very obviously in the lead drums and to not map them would be to also ignore the main rhythm establishing instrument (which is a necessity for breakcore). I'd also like to point out that the argument of the 1/16 sliders causing glitches and being too much has only been brought up by a couple of people and, other than that, NO ONE has expressed that opinion (including people who don't like the 1/16 sliders).

Regarding the hitsounding, the soft hitsound delay that you mentioned isn't even noticeable in the default skin, so I don't see why this is being mentioned.

This map has been showered in controversy because a mapper decided to upload a map AFTER it was finished and testplayed, resulting in a speedrank. Just because you guys didn't get the opportunity to be babysitters and stick your noses in everything the map does, doesn't mean you can come up with random reason after random reason to try and get it DQ'd. You guys need to understand that not only is Kyshiro an elite mapper (which should make speedranking more understandable), but he has also MADE breakcore in the past (so he obviously would not be concerned at all, when combined with his mapping experience, if he were to upload a breakcore map in this kind of fashion). Honestly guys, take stuff into consideration before you go ape shit on a map. :|

(The last paragraph is not referring to grumd since he apologized for his rant/mod and explained why he did what he did. :) )

I can understand Kyshiro's anger here because of the bullshit this map has gone through, but I can't accept your rude behavior towards him Charles. Kyshiro is not 12 and should be treated with the same respect every other mapper deserves. :|
ac8129464363

ComfyWolf wrote:

You guys need to understand that not only is Kyshiro an elite mapper (which should make speedranking more understandable), but he has also MADE breakcore in the past (so he obviously would not be concerned at all, when combined with his mapping experience, if he were to upload a breakcore map in this kind of fashion).
I haven't looked at this map, but I fail to see how being an elite mapper and mapping breakcore before excludes him from quality standards. I just think everybody should be subject to the same scrutiny, regardless of who it is.
ComfyWolf

deetz wrote:

ComfyWolf wrote:

You guys need to understand that not only is Kyshiro an elite mapper (which should make speedranking more understandable), but he has also MADE breakcore in the past (so he obviously would not be concerned at all, when combined with his mapping experience, if he were to upload a breakcore map in this kind of fashion).
I haven't looked at this map, but I fail to see how being an elite mapper and mapping breakcore before excludes him from quality standards. I just think everybody should be subject to the same scrutiny, regardless of who it is.
I was giving reasons as to why the map could've been ranked so fast. Being an elite mapper means that he most likely already knows many of the quality standards, which would result in less mods. Being a person who has made breakcore (I did not say mapped breakcore as I do not know if that is true) would mean he would know many of the details about the genre and thus would be more confident in uploading it when it's borderline ready for ranking.

I did not say he was exempt from quality standards anywhere in my post as everyone should be subject to them.

Hope this clears things up :D
Topic Starter
Kyshiro
Being elite mapper doesnt have much to do with it, I do think I have a high quality standard as most of the stuff I map I don't even want to rank cause it lacks that ''special'' feel.
The reason I was pissed is the way me and the map are treated, which apparently happens with all my maps lately.
Let's just drop this topic and hope it doesn't get an unnecessary DQ, I already have someone who will fix the -4 online offset.

ComfyWolf wrote:

Continuing on what WORSTPOLACKEU said, I feel that, aesthetically, removing the 1/16 sliders would be removing one of most defining dynamics of the song. These sliders are very obviously in the lead drums and to not map them would be to also ignore the main rhythm establishing instrument (which is a necessity for breakcore). I'd also like to point out that the argument of the 1/16 sliders causing glitches and being too much has only been brought up by a couple of people and, other than that, NO ONE has expressed that opinion (including people who don't like the 1/16 sliders).
This, and as long as I don't see the players complaining I refuse to change them
DeletedUser_4329079
I think the issue with 1/16 sliders is more of an issue with game mechanics and not with maps anyway. If it annoys some people that much then you should request it to be changed game wise to something that doesn't cause issues with playability.
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