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Accuracy vs. speed

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Reyvateil
@pekkc

Just giving a smart advice now. Might not be very important at this point, but it will in the future, regardless of the pattern and no matter how low the approach rate is try to read each circle individually, at max read 2 ahead at a time, unless there is no way around it. Seriously.
Yuudachi-kun
Just gonna say bonbori, if you were really good at DT you would have more high level DT fcs that simply aren't 3* maps fc'd with good acc. Yeah, you're fucking boss at hdhr but I refute this DT claim.
Heinzen

Endaris wrote:

bonbori wrote:

This is not a rule. Of course there are maps that exist for the purpose of abusing the system, but I challenge you to point any no mod maps that are worth the same as a close to SS run on Chata - Remind +HDHR.

That map is like 240pp. And I can keep on going, that was just a single example.
Such a lame challenge. Looking at my rank/topplays you know exactly that I can't precisely judge plays at that level.
Then why are you trying to argue back with both Mikakage and I when we clearly have more experience in:

1) Getting better at different aspects of the game:

a) both Mikakage and I can do DT, no mod, HR and HD (to a certain extent) as well as read lower ARs (he does it better than I do) where neither of us had any single human being trying to point out how we should practice, we did it on our own instead of having someone who - as you said - judging by their performances is a sub-par player who barelly plays anything but nomod.

b) we both have been playing for a longer time than you do. I experienced Score-based system as well as ppv1, he was part of ppv1 (I think). We both know how to break those systems farm-wise anytime. Time = Experience

2) Not having to back-track our progress:

a) Playing things that are amazingly difficult nonomd while not knowing to read anything higher than AR9 and lower than AR8 as well as not being able to stream or tap faster than, say, 190bpm for most nomod maps, not being able to properly aim a circle because you spam low CS maps, or relying on reading follow-points cause the maps are slow enough for that instead of training your reaction time sure is a sign of progress, until...

b) you get to the point where you're stuck in place and you have to go back and do things you should have done months ago, which is learning how to read different things, practice your aim, getting faster. Which leads to...

c) the problem where you developed so many bad-habits for yourself that you either stop playing the game for a while and lose part of your progress or you simply pray for the RNGods to help you hit the notes because you have no idea how absolute positioning - for aiming more precisely - or tapping without bashing your keyboard - for effectively tapping/streaming higher bpm - work. Simply because you hear someone say that you had to achieve 4k pp before playing any mods, which can take quite a while if you are actually playing while doing a lot of things wrong.

3) Actually helping people improve and teaching ourselves what it takes to improve:

a) Being players who strive to stand-out in something (and we already do, hence top 10 br players 2014 ranking), we actually experiment things in-game and try to overcome the new challenges. We both work and study all day long, which means that we have to min/max the amount of time we have spare for practicing and getting better. We usually discuss a lot and end up with a good conclusion on what would be a good way to improve and...

b) people improve doing different things. Simply because you improve the most (kek) playing nomod only, doesn't mean that everyone else will. Hell if when I started playing HR and DT people told me to stop and keep playing nomods until I got to top 3k I would be a 30k shitter up to this date and wouldn't be even close as I am to having one of the best aims in the country.

c) Helping and mentoring other people who strived to improve made us realize what the flaws of our tips and methods are and actually make them better. People got good and they achieved what they wanted at the time.

Conclusion: we know what we are saying. We are not saying that there is one single path (as you are suggesting). We waste time doing what we do and there is simply no way that just by looking at OP's profile you could instantly decide that sticking to nomod only is the only way for him to improve. You need a in-depth analysis on the player in question and actually watch him play for a while until you can figure out his flaws.

Cheers!

____________________

Khelly wrote:

Just gonna say bonbori, if you were really good at DT you would have more high level DT fcs that simply aren't 3* maps fc'd with good acc. Yeah, you're fucking boss at hdhr but I refute this DT claim.
I won 3 tournaments (one of them being a 3rd place) playing mainly DT maps. I was unbanned like 5 months ago and I barelly touched DT in single-player. I can do old DTs as well as up to 10.3 capping out at ~250bpm.

I wouldn't say I am the best DT player around, obviously, but I know what I am doing.
Yuudachi-kun
Fuuuu you were typing that now my post is hidden forever.
Heinzen

Khelly wrote:

Fuuuu you were typing that now my post is hidden forever.
Check my edit
Yuudachi-kun
Why were you banned, and what were the maps in these tournaments because I need more maps.
Heinzen

Khelly wrote:

Why were you banned
As part of the conditions on my unban, I agreed on not talking about it ever, sorry about it.

Khelly wrote:

and what were the maps in these tournaments because I need more maps.
One of them was a 2013 tournament, really old and easy (for today's standards) DT maps.

The other ones were Global Tournament (had some really ez DT maps on the finals and Ibero-American tournament (this had some interesting DT maps). You can find both of these in the forums, the first one is in the portuguese section and I don't think you will be able to find it.
Endaris
Nomod is a safe way to go though as there is no way to develop the bad habits DT/HR can cause.
Personally I'm not telling anyone to completely stay away from mods, just that nomod should be the majority of the plays one is doing.
Like here, duh
t/342548

And I feel that for "beginners" there's no sense in playing HR/DT as DTing normals is actually completely useless due to forced DS and using HR on AR6 OD5 maps is kind of worthless too(while AR7+HR is plain frustrating death).
And regarding OP he IS a rather inexperienced player. Not a bloody newb but he is far from reading AR10 as also mentioned in his post and from my personal experience there is no necessity to practice a specific AR in order to learn it as the perception of AR improves regardless what you're playing.

Another thing I'm aware of when telling people to stay away from DT/HR is that I know from my own experience that I don't have the skillbase that is necessary to play HR/DT at a decent level(and not like 3*+DT):
My streamability is rather bad and I'm just at the point where I can sort of deathstream very low bpm like here https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3474495 *brag*
Also my reading is not as solid as it could be even though I think it's good for my rank due to me playing EZ on a somewhat regular basis.
Of course I could get into DT cause 3* generally don't have streams I have to worry about but this would cause me to run into point 2)b) of your post.
I just recently learned to play AR10 without my hits being collected on the right side of my hiterrorbar but I think i could actually get into it now without ruining myself. That's still not far off from my original estimate of "play nomod till 3k pp".

Also this
Then why are you trying to argue back [...] when we clearly have more experience
is one of the most stupid things you can say in any discussion. You're biased.
I've been around here for some time now and I've seen many new players asking for help with their problems and looked on what caused the problems could be, spectated them, discussed peripherals/settings with them etc.
Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.

/edit: Also I'm never telling people how to play unless they ask me to. OP asked, why wouldn't I give my opinion?
Heinzen

Endaris wrote:

Also this
Then why are you trying to argue back [...] when we clearly have more experience
is one of the most stupid things you can say in any discussion. You're biased.
I've been around here for some time now and I've seen many new players asking for help with their problems and looked on what caused the problems could be, spectated them, discussed peripherals/settings with them etc.
Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.
Of course I am biased about it. I am completely biased about this because you're telling people who could potentially become the next ruruchi to stay away from forced improvements that DT and HR impose. You're telling them to back-track further on and actually take a way longer time to improve at specific aspects because you don't have the skill set to do it.

Let them experience it by themselves for christ sake. If they can't handle it, they will realize and go back to nomod until they are satisfied and feel like trying again.

And yes, I do remember what it is to struggle at 3.5*, I remember also that my first SS was on a sakurasou no pet na kanojo map on hard diff +HR. That didn't stop me from working my ass and trying to SS that map even though HR'ing a Hard diff might sound pathetic, it wasn't to me back then.

If people decided to play the game, work their asses off of their own experience rather than relying on people who claim to be good or bad, regardless of actually knowing what the fuck they are saying or not, they would progress faster.

This game has like 2% of theory behind it while 98% is working on your own to improve. The path the player choses should be dependant on their own ideals. If they feel like they don't know something about the core mechanics, playstyle techniques or even theory behind something, then it's time to ask for tips.

People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.
Endaris

bonbori wrote:

People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.
get your ass out of here then :)
As I said I'm not telling anyone what to play unless that person asked for opinions(and I'm also not presenting it as the holy grail).
Yuudachi-kun
You say people will back away from it and go back to nomod - but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen many a time here new players decide to keep playing 5/6* maps and consider that their skill level and then never want to back down from playing them - and their top ranks are C's on hards for a general example.

Do you think playing things like that and continuing to do so when you're vastly not ready will lead to significant improvement? What's to keep someone from playing 3* Dt and not being able to go higher because they never atopped and went back? Or decided that 90% HR B's were good and now can only read ar10?
Astrofiziks

bonbori wrote:

people who could potentially become the next ruruchi
i'm sorry but i laughed
Yolshka
So many posts, and I'm sitting here being confused about whether or not a skrub like me should put the HR glasses on.
Endaris

ShadyAngel wrote:

So many posts, and I'm sitting here being confused about whether or not a skrub like me should put the HR glasses on.
Play a map with HR that has comfortable bpm for reading(would be3* ~150-180).
Then watch your replay with activated hiterrorbar. If it looks worse than the hiterrorbar on the bottom left play from this video(like most 300s shifted to the right, only very few 300s hit early, basically no 100s early, decent amount of 100s late) you're probably not ready.
Heinzen

Khelly wrote:

You say people will back away from it and go back to nomod - but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen many a time here new players decide to keep playing 5/6* maps and consider that their skill level and then never want to back down from playing them - and their top ranks are C's on hards for a general example.

Do you think playing things like that and continuing to do so when you're vastly not ready will lead to significant improvement? What's to keep someone from playing 3* Dt and not being able to go higher because they never atopped and went back? Or decided that 90% HR B's were good and now can only read ar10?

bonbori wrote:

If people ruin themselves it's for a reason. Either they don't have anyone to tell them that they fucked up, or they simply have a halter that makes it impossible for them to see any problem with themselves.
_________________________________________________________________

Astrofiziks wrote:

bonbori wrote:

people who could potentially become the next ruruchi
i'm sorry but i laughed
I used an extreme example for the purpose of making my point clear, but comic-relief was also intended :P

_________________________________________________________________

Endaris wrote:

bonbori wrote:

People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.
get your ass out of here then :)
As I said I'm not telling anyone what to play unless that person asked for opinions(and I'm also not presenting it as the holy grail).
No, thanks, I like reading threads in here to see what kind of terrible advice people give from time to time, such as:

- ISetsunaI - wrote:

Silly question, how did you get started [into playing FL]?

Oh and do people actually use FL for maps with small jumps (without memorization)? I know there's plenty of maps with short jumps ,but most of them are really old.

pandaBee wrote:

Flashlight is a terrible mod, please do not play it.
__________________________________________________________________________

Endaris wrote:

Nomod is a safe way to go though as there is no way to develop the bad habits DT/HR can cause.
How can you even say that if you don't play anything but nomod? What aspects of DT and HR do you understand to be so confident of your own argument. Seriously, you literally have less than 5 DT and HR runs added altogether. You don't seem to understand my point in this thread. You don't seem to understand that I am not saying how someone should or should not practice.

You don't seem to understand that I am literally saying that you have no idea what you are talking about because you have close to 0 experience in this game. How can you possibly understand how it works or how improvement works if you didn't experience it yourself?

It's pretty much like having the following conversation:

Person 1: hey man how do I learn how to ride a motorcycle
You: you keep driving a car until you're confortable with it and then you learn how to ride a bike
Person 1: but that's not gonna make me any better at riding a motorcycle
You: yeah but you really shouldn't learn how to ride a bike because that's unsafe
ZenithPhantasm
Speed gives a wider range of pp maps you could play.
Accuracy maximizes pp gained from each map.
Yuudachi-kun
So you JUST SAID if they can't handle it they will realise it and back away and now you counter that with "they ruin themselves for a reason"?
Topic Starter
Originality
Thanks for the advice Mikakage -- I'll try to work on more individual reading.

[quote="bonbori"]

Conclusion: we know what we are saying. We are not saying that there is one single path (as you are suggesting). We waste time doing what we do and there is simply no way that just by looking at OP's profile you could instantly decide that sticking to nomod only is the only way for him to improve. You need a in-depth analysis on the player in question and actually watch him play for a while until you can figure out his flaws.

Cheers!

& That's a great point bonbori (please give me your skillz), everyone improves differently. I've played with the mods to try them out, and I'm wimpy, and can't do them very effectively. (my big issue right now is that I have a tendency to hit notes early, and I also need to work on long(er) jumps, like some of the jumps that pop up in "best friends insane", which leads to a pretty hefty struggle with HR) I also enjoy playing new maps and getting scores nomod instead of working on maps with DT/HR, although I can see your pretty strong argument that they're great for gaining pp -- and for getting better. It's fully possible that I would improve faster if I just manned up and learned the mods, but I'm not ranked that high yet, and I enjoy playing nomod more, so that's the path that I'm currently on. Once I get more competitive, I'm betting those mods will become REALLY attractive. Practice. Practice. Practice.
Topic Starter
Originality

Endaris wrote:

Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.

/edit: Also I'm never telling people how to play unless they ask me to. OP asked, why wouldn't I give my opinion?
Okay, I can pass those 3.5*, it's the 4.5-5.0* that are the nasty ones right now. But I feel like I'm making progress. :D It's nice to have opinions coming from all ends of the spectrum -- all ends that are still better than me, ahaha. & thanks for making that beginner guide, it's been helpful to have something to start working from. Although I feel the most improvement comes from when I watch my replays and go "oh yeah, I actually DID miss that note because of x/y/z, and this is how I can fix it"
Endaris
It's more like:

A: Hey, how do i learn to ski a black piste if i never ski'd before?
Me: You start out on blue pistes to learn how to change directions without falling down every 2s and accelerating too fast. Once you can do that you can move on to more steep red pistes and become more familiar with rough terrain.
A: BUT I WANNA DO BLACK PISTES!!!
Me: Enjoy game pls.
Heinzen

peckc wrote:

Practice. Practice. Practice.
!!!!

That's what I wanted to hear.

As I tried to state multiple times, don't follow my advices or anyone else's because it worked for me or them. Find what works best for you. If it's playing nomod over and over again, great! If not, try other mods, try techniques, try things until you are satisfied.

There is no secret, only physical limitation, until you get there, you'll hopefully improve in no time.

Khelly wrote:

So you JUST SAID if they can't handle it they will realise it and back away and now you counter that with "they ruin themselves for a reason"?
That's what I expect most people to do. People who will "ruin themselves" are the specific case that you mentioned of people who can't understand when it is time to stop


Endaris wrote:

It's more like:

A: Hey, how do i learn to ski a black piste if i never ski'd before?
Me: You start out on blue pistes to learn how to change directions without falling down every 2s and accelerating too fast. Once you can do that you can move on to more steep red pistes and become more familiar with rough terrain.
A: BUT I WANNA DO BLACK PISTES!!!
Me: Enjoy game pls.
Except that this would be like comparing low-end DT with high-end DT, instead of completely different types of gameplay as you have been suggesting up till now.
Endaris
How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.

I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.
The Gambler

Endaris wrote:

How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.

I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.
Like me, I abused DT and HR enough to break my insides

Also 7 star maps with low OD
Heinzen

Endaris wrote:

How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.

I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.
lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other people
The Gambler

bonbori wrote:

lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other people
Umm, lots of songs have AR 9.5 that have high BPM. DT is quite indistinguishable nowadays
unless you're doing AR10.3
Heinzen

The Gambler wrote:

bonbori wrote:

lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other people
Umm, lots of songs have AR 9.5 that have high BPM. DT is quite indistinguishable nowadays
unless you're doing AR10.3
I am not talking about low-end DT
Endaris

bonbori wrote:

I am not talking about low-end DT
Rofl.
You do realize we talk about a 1,2k pp player, right?
He is NOT going to play high-end DT too soon even if he's the next rrtyui
Heinzen

Endaris wrote:

bonbori wrote:

I am not talking about low-end DT
Rofl.
You do realize we talk about a 1,2k pp player, right?
He is NOT going to play high-end DT too soon even if he's the next rrtyui

I never said he will, nor that he is talking about high-end DT. I said you can't compare DT to nomod in high-end standards.

Please, refrain from posting if you can't understand simple context. I am done spamming the thread, maybe you should too
Endaris
Idk, please refrain from posting if you aren't addressing OP specifically.
If you want a general discussion maybe start a new thread.
Yolshka
At this rank if you perform poorly on HR/DT you have no way to tell whether or not thats because playing nomod exclusively has had an impact on your performance so you just assume you are not ready to play those.


But as bonbori said, someone who is more experienced can analyze your results, and give suggestions.
Endaris
Idk if you will read it but regarding beatmaps you don't necessarily need a supporter tag.
I downloaded 95% of my beatmaps via this torrent:
http://osu.hiramiya.me/torrents.htm
All beatmaps pack together are about 80-90GB of space so if you got some left it would be a nice investition for the future as you rarely have to download stuff outside of new beatmappacks anymore.
ZenithPhantasm
play more 8-)
Mahogany

Mikakage wrote:

Yet, for many, aiming a pattern or dealing with OD8 streams are easier than dealing with AR10 and OD>=9.8. Hard to say which one is more complex, huh?
Uh, no. OD10 is objectively more difficult than OD8. That's not difficult to say at all.

Mikakage wrote:

For me? Until recently, yes,
Good for you, and you did that, so that's okay.

Mikakage wrote:

Ok? And?
And the PP system has potential to be so broken that you can get extremely far without having to learn mods purely through map choice that you really shouldn't need mods until a certain level in the first place.

bonbori wrote:

No I am also really good at nomod, DT and HD. HR made my accuracy, reading and timing better, which are quite the walls for players who go from OD8 nomods to OD9-10 nomods or even DT/HR. I am quite sure I have more expertise in this matter than you do, so please, refrain from doubting, specially since I made practice courses and helped people practice and pretty much all of them have, not only higher pp (since you're talking about pp, I will do so too), but their actual plays are better than yours.
And? I made my accuracy, reading, and timing better by simply playing more nomod. You don't need mods to improve your accuracy, reading, and timing in general. Playing HR will make you better at playing HR. Playing DT will make you better at playing DT. Playing nomod will make you better at playing nomod. The difference being, playing HR and DT have the potential to make you worse at nomod.

bonbori wrote:

If people ruin themselves it's for a reason. Either they don't have anyone to tell them that they fucked up, or they simply have a halter that makes it impossible for them to see any problem with themselves.
And why do you think I'm here? I'm here to warn people against fucking up and to try to steer them away from HR. If they're asking for help in GnR, that means they're already unsure about it. If someone thinks HR will help them, they'll be sure about it and play HR. If someone's unsure, then they probably shouldn't be playing HR.

Nomod is a safe way to improve and gain ranks, compared to DT and HR, which are unsafe ways to improve.

I don't think people should choose an unsafe way to improve when there's a safe option available.

If people ask for guidance, I feel it's better to suggest the safest course of action.

DT and HR aren't needed for proper PP gain until a rather high rank, and that's why I always recommend avoiding it to newer players, simply because it isn't necessary. At all.

bonbori wrote:

a) both Mikakage and I can do DT, no mod, HR and HD (to a certain extent) as well as read lower ARs (he does it better than I do) where neither of us had any single human being trying to point out how we should practice, we did it on our own
So you're saying you're more qualified to talk about how new players will improve in general than I am meanwhile you yourself were both shut-ins in terms of learning. What you're doing is basically taking your own experience and you believe in it as 100% fact that works for all players.

I've spent about a year constantly talking to other people. Finding out how they improve, what their strengths are, watching them rank, discussing the game, discussing how to improve, etc.

I think I'm perfectly qualified to talk about what helps newer, unsure players to improve, and have plenty of expertise in the matter.
StephOsu
all the good players arguing about stuffs while i am trying my best to snipe circles
OT : IMO experience comes from having fun from the mistakes you get
i mean a game is not going to be fun if you don't do any mistakes
and improvement always comes from fixing the mistakes
so i don't think any of that matters >_>
though dt really screws my reading from time to time
no mod masterrace
The Gambler

StephOsu wrote:

no mod masterrace
https://osu.ppy.sh/u/Falling%20snow
This guy mostly has HD and nomod plays. Barely any mods at his rank.
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