They're more likely to get good with DT/HR without developing bad habits that make it harder to learn other mods.
If you skim through the topplayers it's fairly obvious that some of them are completely tunneled on one of the two mods and probably won't be able to get an equally impressive play with the other one(or even nomod) due to a lack of some keyskills for the specific difficulties.

Endaris wrote:

If you skim through the topplayers it's fairly obvious that some of them are completely tunneled on one of the two mods and probably won't be able to get an equally impressive play with the other one(or even nomod) due to a lack of some keyskills for the specific difficulties.

Just like balanced players won't get the top plays from specific mods because they don't have the keyskills to play at the highest levels of these. It's a trade-off, each compete by playing their strong points making it even in the end.

Mahogany wrote:

What I just said is just that it doesn't matter the order you learn things, you will struggle eventually and you either stick to your choice or turn to something else.

And if you decide to stick to your choice?

Mikakage wrote:

A 4.8* no mod map is about as hard as a map that becomes 4.8* after adding HR. When learning HR people don't start at the level they are used to playing no mods.

I disagree. A 4.8* nomod map will be more complex and have more difficult patterns than a 4.8* HR map. The difficulty is in aiming smaller circles, dealing with AR10, and dealing with OD10.

The difficulty gained from HR is an entirely different type of difficulty than you would have from a nomod map of similar difficulty. It's like trying to compare longstreams to fullscreen jumps in terms of difficulty, they're incomparable at a similar level.

Mikakage wrote:

How this reinforces your point?

I said you shouldn't play DT or HR before you have a solid nomod base. Your post was pointing out the fact that these people who play DT or HR had no firm grasp on AR9 in the first place, which is part of the reason why you should stick to nomod until it's impossible to progress further.

Mikakage wrote:

learning no mod first is objectively the best way to learn the game

Of course it's the best way to learn the game, because nomod is the way the game and map were designed. It's an entry point into the game and will tide you over for a long time, and by the time you're starting to have to play DT/HR, you'll be able to make a proper educated decision of which to focus more into, and will have a lot more actual skill backing you up rather than having to rely on the mod for PP.

Mikakage wrote:

Not learning mods will also cause problems later on

That's when you start learning a mod, though. It's a lot harder to learn a lower AR/Slower maps than it is to learn a higher AR/Faster maps.

What you should ask yourself before you start learning a mod:

Do I need to?

No. No, you don't need to. Not until you're rank 10k or below. Hell, I've gotten to 4k PP purely by exploiting the PP system as much as I can, so maybe that's a better value to aim for, too.

Mikakage wrote:

Just like balanced players won't get the top plays from specific mods because they don't have the keyskills to play at the highest levels of these.

I don't know about you, but I find a 200pp play modless much more impressive than a 200pp play with HR or DT.

Mahogany wrote:

HK_ wrote:

Would anyone please explain it to me how does one "unlearn" ar9??

Playing too much AR9.67/AR10/AR10.3

You know, the same way people unlearn AR0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8

But that would mean they never actually learned AR they unlearned.

Maybe, maybe, but the point is that they're unable to play it anymore, rather than the conditions surrounding said inability.

Try to get better accuracy in nomod then step up to HR, i guess

Mahogany wrote:

Mikakage wrote:

Not learning mods will also cause problems later on

That's when you start learning a mod, though. It's a lot harder to learn a lower AR/Slower maps than it is to learn a higher AR/Faster maps.

What you should ask yourself before you start learning a mod:

Do I need to?

No. No, you don't need to. Not until you're rank 10k or below. Hell, I've gotten to 4k PP purely by exploiting the PP system as much as I can, so maybe that's a better value to aim for, too.

The only mods that will give you trouble when learning them late are EZ and maybe HD/FL as these mods are different to deal with compared to mods that just alter speed/metadata and also a lot different depending on the difficulty level: the occurence of stacks, overlaps, high AR, spacing are all things that become important for the Silver-mods while they don't really have an impact gameplaywise on HR/DT. EZ specifically cause good players don't really have the nerves to go back to easier maps to get a grasp on the mod and harder maps being way too dense with EZ for learning purposes.

Mahogany wrote:

I disagree. A 4.8* nomod map will be more complex and have more difficult patterns than a 4.8* HR map. The difficulty is in aiming smaller circles, dealing with AR10, and dealing with OD10.

The difficulty gained from HR is an entirely different type of difficulty than you would have from a nomod map of similar difficulty. It's like trying to compare longstreams to fullscreen jumps in terms of difficulty, they're incomparable at a similar level.

Yet, for many, aiming a pattern or dealing with OD8 streams are easier than dealing with AR10 and OD>=9.8. Hard to say which one is more complex, huh?

Mahogany wrote:

That's when you start learning a mod, though. It's a lot harder to learn a lower AR/Slower maps than it is to learn a higher AR/Faster maps.

topkek

okay

Mahogany wrote:

What you should ask yourself before you start learning a mod:

Do I need to?

...

For me? Until recently, yes, because mappers didn't make OD9 maps as often and OD is broken in this system. Trying to improve ranks was directly tied to it regardless of the difficulty of the map and DT and HR offers a boost in these.

Mahogany wrote:

No. No, you don't need to. Not until you're rank 10k or below. Hell, I've gotten to 4k PP purely by exploiting the PP system as much as I can, so maybe that's a better value to aim for, too.

Ok? And?

pp isn't the only metric to measure skill as the system has it's flaws like the bias towards spacing and OD.

Mahogany wrote:

I don't know about you, but I find a 200pp play modless much more impressive than a 200pp play with HR or DT.

I don't know about you, but I don't make generic statements like these because there are easy farm maps for every mod and hard maps for every mod around the same pp range.

A 200 pp play in Remind is fucking impressive. A 200 pp play in Rising Hope (full version) isn't.

Just like a 200 pp play on anesthesia is way more impressive than a 200 pp play on Setting Sail.

Mahogany wrote:

bonbori wrote:

I started playing HDHR when I was 20k in ppv1 (which should be like 40k nowadays) and I have one of the best aims in my country and among the top HDHR players around.

Ok? And?

Did you NEED to start playing HDHR then to keep improving? I doubt it, you could progress much further nomod.

No I am also really good at nomod, DT and HD. HR made my accuracy, reading and timing better, which are quite the walls for players who go from OD8 nomods to OD9-10 nomods or even DT/HR. I am quite sure I have more expertise in this matter than you do, so please, refrain from doubting, specially since I made practice courses and helped people practice and pretty much all of them have, not only higher pp (since you're talking about pp, I will do so too), but their actual plays are better than yours.

Mahogany wrote:

bonbori wrote:

People should start playing mods when they are confortable with moving forward and stepping up their game

No, because most of the time people don't actually know what's best for them. That's why we have people who have completely ruined themselves by playing DT too much and are completely unable to rank anymore.

If people ruin themselves it's for a reason. Either they don't have anyone to tell them that they fucked up, or they simply have a halter that makes it impossible for them to see any problem with themselves.

Mikakage wrote:

pp isn't the only metric to measure skill as the system has it's flaws like the bias towards spacing and OD.

This sounds like a nomod-play with X pp is more impressive than a HR-play with X pp cause the latter abuses the system's bias.

Which more or less says that HR/DT are for pp-farming and specific niche-skills and nomod for overall skill.
Ain't that what Maho was saying?

Endaris wrote:

Mikakage wrote:

pp isn't the only metric to measure skill as the system has it's flaws like the bias towards spacing and OD.

This sounds like a nomod-play with X pp is more impressive than a HR-play with X pp cause the latter abuses the system's bias.

This is not a rule. Of course there are maps that exist for the purpose of abusing the system, but I challenge you to point any no mod maps that are worth the same as a close to SS run on Chata - Remind +HDHR.

That map is like 240pp. And I can keep on going, that was just a single example.

Endaris wrote:

This sounds like a nomod-play with X pp is more impressive than a HR-play with X pp cause the latter abuses the system's bias.

Which more or less says that HR/DT are for pp-farming and specific niche-skills and nomod for overall skill.
Ain't that what Maho was saying?

Enjoy your no mod farm.

All these are jump maps with higher OD.

bonbori wrote:

This is not a rule. Of course there are maps that exist for the purpose of abusing the system, but I challenge you to point any no mod maps that are worth the same as a close to SS run on Chata - Remind +HDHR.

That map is like 240pp. And I can keep on going, that was just a single example.

Such a lame challenge. Looking at my rank/topplays you know exactly that I can't precisely judge plays at that level.

@Mikakage: You'll still always get OD9.8/10 at the level when the mapset you linked only has 8/8.5 which is still a great pp-boost from OD if you're capable of getting the acc on high OD.

Okay, so say I go down to 2* maps and learn the HR/DT mods right now for those maps. DT is exactly what is sounds like, doubling the speed of the song I am playing on, and HR does this, "Hard Rock (named after the hardest difficulty of the DS game Elite Beat Agents) decreases hit circle size by 1 tick while increasing the overall difficulty, approach rate, and the HP drain by 2 or 3 ticks of their original value up to a maximum of 10. The difference in AR is often hard to notice except when used on maps with an original AR of 7 or greater, as it will push the AR to the maximum value of 10. Hard Rock can be a very difficult mod (especially on insane maps) as it not only demands higher cursor accuracy, it also requires the ability to read lightning-fast approach circles. Additionally, this mod flips the map on the X axis, so that elements that were at the bottom of the map are now at the top and vice versa."

Neither of those two mods creates new patterns for my eye to learn, so in a game where recognizing patterns to match with rhythms is extremely important, I don't see a reason to learn HR/DT until I've gotten to a point that I recognize most difficulty level patterns (including stream length, stream speed, jump distance, etc.) since at each difficulty level, new patterns are introduced. While you could make the argument that I could learn these patterns on lower songs, easier difficulty songs have less notes than hard songs, so it would take longer to run into the tougher patterns on these easy songs. While HR/DT seem like EXTREMELY valuable tools for improvement, I don't see much worth to doubling speed of a song of increasing AR/decreasing circle size if you can't recognize the patterns in the first place. I'd rather learn the songs nomod up to whatever wall I hit, then go back and learn DT/HR on songs that I enjoyed playing nomod.

peckc wrote:

Neither of those two mods creates new patterns for my eye to learn, so in a game where recognizing patterns to match with rhythms is extremely important, I don't see a reason to learn HR/DT until I've gotten to a point that I recognize most difficulty level patterns (including stream length, stream speed, jump distance, etc.) since at each difficulty level, new patterns are introduced. While you could make the argument that I could learn these patterns on lower songs, easier difficulty songs have less notes than hard songs, so it would take longer to run into the tougher patterns on these easy songs. While HR/DT seem like EXTREMELY valuable tools for improvement, I don't see much worth to doubling speed of a song of increasing AR/decreasing circle size if you can't recognize the patterns in the first place. I'd rather learn the songs nomod up to whatever wall I hit, then go back and learn DT/HR on songs that I enjoyed playing nomod.

Smart choice, you took the correct arguments.
Also DoubleTime doesn't double the speed, the multiplier is only 1.5, peppy cheated you.
Learn EZ-mod :^)

@pekkc

Just giving a smart advice now. Might not be very important at this point, but it will in the future, regardless of the pattern and no matter how low the approach rate is try to read each circle individually, at max read 2 ahead at a time, unless there is no way around it. Seriously.

Just gonna say bonbori, if you were really good at DT you would have more high level DT fcs that simply aren't 3* maps fc'd with good acc. Yeah, you're fucking boss at hdhr but I refute this DT claim.

Endaris wrote:

bonbori wrote:

This is not a rule. Of course there are maps that exist for the purpose of abusing the system, but I challenge you to point any no mod maps that are worth the same as a close to SS run on Chata - Remind +HDHR.

That map is like 240pp. And I can keep on going, that was just a single example.

Such a lame challenge. Looking at my rank/topplays you know exactly that I can't precisely judge plays at that level.

Then why are you trying to argue back with both Mikakage and I when we clearly have more experience in:

1) Getting better at different aspects of the game:

a) both Mikakage and I can do DT, no mod, HR and HD (to a certain extent) as well as read lower ARs (he does it better than I do) where neither of us had any single human being trying to point out how we should practice, we did it on our own instead of having someone who - as you said - judging by their performances is a sub-par player who barelly plays anything but nomod.

b) we both have been playing for a longer time than you do. I experienced Score-based system as well as ppv1, he was part of ppv1 (I think). We both know how to break those systems farm-wise anytime. Time = Experience

2) Not having to back-track our progress:

a) Playing things that are amazingly difficult nonomd while not knowing to read anything higher than AR9 and lower than AR8 as well as not being able to stream or tap faster than, say, 190bpm for most nomod maps, not being able to properly aim a circle because you spam low CS maps, or relying on reading follow-points cause the maps are slow enough for that instead of training your reaction time sure is a sign of progress, until...

b) you get to the point where you're stuck in place and you have to go back and do things you should have done months ago, which is learning how to read different things, practice your aim, getting faster. Which leads to...

c) the problem where you developed so many bad-habits for yourself that you either stop playing the game for a while and lose part of your progress or you simply pray for the RNGods to help you hit the notes because you have no idea how absolute positioning - for aiming more precisely - or tapping without bashing your keyboard - for effectively tapping/streaming higher bpm - work. Simply because you hear someone say that you had to achieve 4k pp before playing any mods, which can take quite a while if you are actually playing while doing a lot of things wrong.

3) Actually helping people improve and teaching ourselves what it takes to improve:

a) Being players who strive to stand-out in something (and we already do, hence top 10 br players 2014 ranking), we actually experiment things in-game and try to overcome the new challenges. We both work and study all day long, which means that we have to min/max the amount of time we have spare for practicing and getting better. We usually discuss a lot and end up with a good conclusion on what would be a good way to improve and...

b) people improve doing different things. Simply because you improve the most (kek) playing nomod only, doesn't mean that everyone else will. Hell if when I started playing HR and DT people told me to stop and keep playing nomods until I got to top 3k I would be a 30k shitter up to this date and wouldn't be even close as I am to having one of the best aims in the country.

c) Helping and mentoring other people who strived to improve made us realize what the flaws of our tips and methods are and actually make them better. People got good and they achieved what they wanted at the time.

Conclusion: we know what we are saying. We are not saying that there is one single path (as you are suggesting). We waste time doing what we do and there is simply no way that just by looking at OP's profile you could instantly decide that sticking to nomod only is the only way for him to improve. You need a in-depth analysis on the player in question and actually watch him play for a while until you can figure out his flaws.

Cheers!

____________________

Khelly wrote:

Just gonna say bonbori, if you were really good at DT you would have more high level DT fcs that simply aren't 3* maps fc'd with good acc. Yeah, you're fucking boss at hdhr but I refute this DT claim.

I won 3 tournaments (one of them being a 3rd place) playing mainly DT maps. I was unbanned like 5 months ago and I barelly touched DT in single-player. I can do old DTs as well as up to 10.3 capping out at ~250bpm.

I wouldn't say I am the best DT player around, obviously, but I know what I am doing.

Fuuuu you were typing that now my post is hidden forever.

Khelly wrote:

Fuuuu you were typing that now my post is hidden forever.

Check my edit

Why were you banned, and what were the maps in these tournaments because I need more maps.

Khelly wrote:

Why were you banned

As part of the conditions on my unban, I agreed on not talking about it ever, sorry about it.

Khelly wrote:

and what were the maps in these tournaments because I need more maps.

One of them was a 2013 tournament, really old and easy (for today's standards) DT maps.

The other ones were Global Tournament (had some really ez DT maps on the finals and Ibero-American tournament (this had some interesting DT maps). You can find both of these in the forums, the first one is in the portuguese section and I don't think you will be able to find it.

Nomod is a safe way to go though as there is no way to develop the bad habits DT/HR can cause.
Personally I'm not telling anyone to completely stay away from mods, just that nomod should be the majority of the plays one is doing.
Like here, duh
t/342548

And I feel that for "beginners" there's no sense in playing HR/DT as DTing normals is actually completely useless due to forced DS and using HR on AR6 OD5 maps is kind of worthless too(while AR7+HR is plain frustrating death).
And regarding OP he IS a rather inexperienced player. Not a bloody newb but he is far from reading AR10 as also mentioned in his post and from my personal experience there is no necessity to practice a specific AR in order to learn it as the perception of AR improves regardless what you're playing.

Another thing I'm aware of when telling people to stay away from DT/HR is that I know from my own experience that I don't have the skillbase that is necessary to play HR/DT at a decent level(and not like 3*+DT):
My streamability is rather bad and I'm just at the point where I can sort of deathstream very low bpm like here https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3474495 *brag*
Also my reading is not as solid as it could be even though I think it's good for my rank due to me playing EZ on a somewhat regular basis.
Of course I could get into DT cause 3* generally don't have streams I have to worry about but this would cause me to run into point 2)b) of your post.
I just recently learned to play AR10 without my hits being collected on the right side of my hiterrorbar but I think i could actually get into it now without ruining myself. That's still not far off from my original estimate of "play nomod till 3k pp".

Also this

Then why are you trying to argue back [...] when we clearly have more experience

is one of the most stupid things you can say in any discussion. You're biased.
I've been around here for some time now and I've seen many new players asking for help with their problems and looked on what caused the problems could be, spectated them, discussed peripherals/settings with them etc.
Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.

/edit: Also I'm never telling people how to play unless they ask me to. OP asked, why wouldn't I give my opinion?

Endaris wrote:

Also this

Then why are you trying to argue back [...] when we clearly have more experience

is one of the most stupid things you can say in any discussion. You're biased.
I've been around here for some time now and I've seen many new players asking for help with their problems and looked on what caused the problems could be, spectated them, discussed peripherals/settings with them etc.
Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.

Of course I am biased about it. I am completely biased about this because you're telling people who could potentially become the next ruruchi to stay away from forced improvements that DT and HR impose. You're telling them to back-track further on and actually take a way longer time to improve at specific aspects because you don't have the skill set to do it.

Let them experience it by themselves for christ sake. If they can't handle it, they will realize and go back to nomod until they are satisfied and feel like trying again.

And yes, I do remember what it is to struggle at 3.5*, I remember also that my first SS was on a sakurasou no pet na kanojo map on hard diff +HR. That didn't stop me from working my ass and trying to SS that map even though HR'ing a Hard diff might sound pathetic, it wasn't to me back then.

If people decided to play the game, work their asses off of their own experience rather than relying on people who claim to be good or bad, regardless of actually knowing what the fuck they are saying or not, they would progress faster.

This game has like 2% of theory behind it while 98% is working on your own to improve. The path the player choses should be dependant on their own ideals. If they feel like they don't know something about the core mechanics, playstyle techniques or even theory behind something, then it's time to ask for tips.

People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.

bonbori wrote:

People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.

get your ass out of here then
As I said I'm not telling anyone what to play unless that person asked for opinions(and I'm also not presenting it as the holy grail).

You say people will back away from it and go back to nomod - but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen many a time here new players decide to keep playing 5/6* maps and consider that their skill level and then never want to back down from playing them - and their top ranks are C's on hards for a general example.

Do you think playing things like that and continuing to do so when you're vastly not ready will lead to significant improvement? What's to keep someone from playing 3* Dt and not being able to go higher because they never atopped and went back? Or decided that 90% HR B's were good and now can only read ar10?

bonbori wrote:

people who could potentially become the next ruruchi

i'm sorry but i laughed

So many posts, and I'm sitting here being confused about whether or not a skrub like me should put the HR glasses on.

ShadyAngel wrote:

So many posts, and I'm sitting here being confused about whether or not a skrub like me should put the HR glasses on.

Play a map with HR that has comfortable bpm for reading(would be3* ~150-180).
Then watch your replay with activated hiterrorbar. If it looks worse than the hiterrorbar on the bottom left play from this video(like most 300s shifted to the right, only very few 300s hit early, basically no 100s early, decent amount of 100s late) you're probably not ready.

Khelly wrote:

You say people will back away from it and go back to nomod - but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen many a time here new players decide to keep playing 5/6* maps and consider that their skill level and then never want to back down from playing them - and their top ranks are C's on hards for a general example.

Do you think playing things like that and continuing to do so when you're vastly not ready will lead to significant improvement? What's to keep someone from playing 3* Dt and not being able to go higher because they never atopped and went back? Or decided that 90% HR B's were good and now can only read ar10?

bonbori wrote:

If people ruin themselves it's for a reason. Either they don't have anyone to tell them that they fucked up, or they simply have a halter that makes it impossible for them to see any problem with themselves.

_________________________________________________________________

Astrofiziks wrote:

bonbori wrote:

people who could potentially become the next ruruchi

i'm sorry but i laughed

I used an extreme example for the purpose of making my point clear, but comic-relief was also intended

_________________________________________________________________

Endaris wrote:

bonbori wrote:

People won't get better at osu for reading the forums, they will get better at osu for playing the game.

get your ass out of here then
As I said I'm not telling anyone what to play unless that person asked for opinions(and I'm also not presenting it as the holy grail).

No, thanks, I like reading threads in here to see what kind of terrible advice people give from time to time, such as:

- ISetsunaI - wrote:

Silly question, how did you get started [into playing FL]?

Oh and do people actually use FL for maps with small jumps (without memorization)? I know there's plenty of maps with short jumps ,but most of them are really old.

pandaBee wrote:

Flashlight is a terrible mod, please do not play it.

__________________________________________________________________________

Endaris wrote:

Nomod is a safe way to go though as there is no way to develop the bad habits DT/HR can cause.

How can you even say that if you don't play anything but nomod? What aspects of DT and HR do you understand to be so confident of your own argument. Seriously, you literally have less than 5 DT and HR runs added altogether. You don't seem to understand my point in this thread. You don't seem to understand that I am not saying how someone should or should not practice.

You don't seem to understand that I am literally saying that you have no idea what you are talking about because you have close to 0 experience in this game. How can you possibly understand how it works or how improvement works if you didn't experience it yourself?

It's pretty much like having the following conversation:

Person 1: hey man how do I learn how to ride a motorcycle
You: you keep driving a car until you're confortable with it and then you learn how to ride a bike
Person 1: but that's not gonna make me any better at riding a motorcycle
You: yeah but you really shouldn't learn how to ride a bike because that's unsafe

Speed gives a wider range of pp maps you could play.
Accuracy maximizes pp gained from each map.

So you JUST SAID if they can't handle it they will realise it and back away and now you counter that with "they ruin themselves for a reason"?

Thanks for the advice Mikakage -- I'll try to work on more individual reading.

[quote="bonbori"]

Conclusion: we know what we are saying. We are not saying that there is one single path (as you are suggesting). We waste time doing what we do and there is simply no way that just by looking at OP's profile you could instantly decide that sticking to nomod only is the only way for him to improve. You need a in-depth analysis on the player in question and actually watch him play for a while until you can figure out his flaws.

Cheers!

& That's a great point bonbori (please give me your skillz), everyone improves differently. I've played with the mods to try them out, and I'm wimpy, and can't do them very effectively. (my big issue right now is that I have a tendency to hit notes early, and I also need to work on long(er) jumps, like some of the jumps that pop up in "best friends insane", which leads to a pretty hefty struggle with HR) I also enjoy playing new maps and getting scores nomod instead of working on maps with DT/HR, although I can see your pretty strong argument that they're great for gaining pp -- and for getting better. It's fully possible that I would improve faster if I just manned up and learned the mods, but I'm not ranked that high yet, and I enjoy playing nomod more, so that's the path that I'm currently on. Once I get more competitive, I'm betting those mods will become REALLY attractive. Practice. Practice. Practice.

Endaris wrote:

Maybe you can't even remember anymore how it was to be to fail 3.5* star maps out of mere lack of skill cause you're such OsuGods but I certainly do.

/edit: Also I'm never telling people how to play unless they ask me to. OP asked, why wouldn't I give my opinion?

Okay, I can pass those 3.5*, it's the 4.5-5.0* that are the nasty ones right now. But I feel like I'm making progress. It's nice to have opinions coming from all ends of the spectrum -- all ends that are still better than me, ahaha. & thanks for making that beginner guide, it's been helpful to have something to start working from. Although I feel the most improvement comes from when I watch my replays and go "oh yeah, I actually DID miss that note because of x/y/z, and this is how I can fix it"

It's more like:

A: Hey, how do i learn to ski a black piste if i never ski'd before?
Me: You start out on blue pistes to learn how to change directions without falling down every 2s and accelerating too fast. Once you can do that you can move on to more steep red pistes and become more familiar with rough terrain.
A: BUT I WANNA DO BLACK PISTES!!!
Me: Enjoy game pls.

peckc wrote:

Practice. Practice. Practice.

!!!!

That's what I wanted to hear.

As I tried to state multiple times, don't follow my advices or anyone else's because it worked for me or them. Find what works best for you. If it's playing nomod over and over again, great! If not, try other mods, try techniques, try things until you are satisfied.

There is no secret, only physical limitation, until you get there, you'll hopefully improve in no time.

Khelly wrote:

So you JUST SAID if they can't handle it they will realise it and back away and now you counter that with "they ruin themselves for a reason"?

That's what I expect most people to do. People who will "ruin themselves" are the specific case that you mentioned of people who can't understand when it is time to stop

Endaris wrote:

It's more like:

A: Hey, how do i learn to ski a black piste if i never ski'd before?
Me: You start out on blue pistes to learn how to change directions without falling down every 2s and accelerating too fast. Once you can do that you can move on to more steep red pistes and become more familiar with rough terrain.
A: BUT I WANNA DO BLACK PISTES!!!
Me: Enjoy game pls.

Except that this would be like comparing low-end DT with high-end DT, instead of completely different types of gameplay as you have been suggesting up till now.

How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.

I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.

Endaris wrote:

How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.

I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.

Like me, I abused DT and HR enough to break my insides

Also 7 star maps with low OD

Endaris wrote:

How is DT different from nomod?
It's just faster -> more steep piste.

I think OP is smart enough to not run into bad habits but depending on who asks the question there are plenty of people that will do.

lol, if you can't distinguish nomod and DT, then I have nothing else to do in here, gl helping other people