Hanatan - Hajimete no Oto

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Smokeman
Smokeman wrote:
IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.



I have to strongly disagree here, there's nothing I despise more than modding a map :D I'm just here because it's almost 3 am & I saw a post on reddit.

i was more talking about the all the ppl attempting to mod the map before his mild rant.

On the other hand you are not rly trying to do him any harm either, which is what i tried to emphasise by calling out all the possible good intentions someone would have modding this (in other words: ppl who give a fuck).

Ye i saw it too and then my hands started typing... wierd thing rly.

its late

btw 04:17:893 (1,1) - i can't rly get behind it. What exactly made him make those ugly sliders. This beautiful song can't possible evoke these unworldly shapes in ones head.
Spaghetti
You're arguing over spilled milk.

If so many people with a large amount of experience agree there's something wrong, then there's probably something wrong.

As Smokeman said, nobody is forcing you to rank this. No matter how well it plays or sounds or whatever, if it doesn't abide by the strict requirements of the ranking process, there's not much you can do, no matter how hard you whine.

Read this post for more info: http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3619207
Railey2

Smokeman wrote:

Man look...

You don't rly have to rank a map... noone is forcing you...
This is a more polite way to tell him to go fuck himself. No more of that please. He makes a point about double standards and favoritism, and that is something to be addressed, regardless of him wanting to rank a map or not.

Smokeman wrote:

All the statements should be made according to logical conclusions from the orginal work, which means even tho there are countles interpretations there is just one (or rarely a few) which is (are) more "right" then all the others. Does this mean you are wrong? By all means NO... but you arent right either... noone can be. Infact you can only get close to the "truth" with your interpretation (or theory) until someone falsifies it. Depending on the extent you have to either modify it or simply dismiss it completely.
ok, so let me entangle that.
- When we interpret art, the interpretation should be based on the original and it should be linked to it through logic
- There are countless interpretations
- Some are more right than others
- You aren't wrong
- You aren't right
- Nobody can be right
- you are right until you are falsified
- the one who falsified you is more right than you, hence why you have to follow his lead and change your interpretation that is not right and not wrong, so you can make it more right, except nobody can be right in the first place, although the one who falsified you is more right than you. It should also be logical.

I don't even know what you were getting at with that, honestly. That whole paragraph is a contradictory mess.

Smokeman wrote:

IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.
Now this is something I can get behind. Listen to experience, for it most likely knows better than you do.
The second thing you said is disagreeable again though. People gain something from fucking shit up, and if you observe them for a bit you see that very clearly. They have personal grudges, suck up to other people, or just enjoy their power. They defend their own opinions vigorously once they are out instead of backing down in an argument, because nothing is harder than admitting that you were wrong. That can lead to pretty nasty situations, where the one with less power has no other option left than following along. Generally, there can be plenty of reasons why people fuck shit up. Not to say that QAT's are essentially evil, but they aren't angels either. They are human, and humans tend to be unfair every once in a while. You got to look out for that, and not deny it by saying "but they don't have nothing to gain".


Smokeman wrote:

if you cant accept that then just dont rank it man.
One last time, please please stop with this sentiment. This is what a system looks like that can't accept criticism and change.
"oh you think theres something wrong with the system and you feel like it could be improved? Hah, fuck off then"
That is not what you want. Definitely not.
Kroytz
nice song ;o
Topic Starter
Avishay

Feb wrote:

actually genryuu kaiko has premanent 1/4's but the sounds are imo not very audible.

I think some person should step in and declare finally what the fuck actually overmapping is.
People speak from overmapping and then both mean different things again. To me 04:26:893 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - theres really nothing in the song, I re-heard it like 50 times theres nothing. And that's what I understand of overmapping. Mapping to nothing. If you can explain to which beats or vocal you've mapped to and ppl can understand it afterwards than it's fine.

I partially agree with you on some points. Just work around your map it's not bad by any means. Don't do repulsive changes it doesn't help the map at all. If you feel like your 1/8's belong there just put em there and explain why.

good luck on the map. I love when ppl have their own styles. rip me.
My intention with this overmapped pattern is to create the emphasizition I felt necessary in the last kiai, I don't really think it was overdone at all, perhaps I could've put some flavor with hitsounds. Most of the 1/8 were intended to do the same around the map.


Nube wrote:

So having skimmed through a bit, I'm not really going to mod this but I just wonder why 03:05:293 (1) - isnt a slider while 01:00:493 (3) - has a slider, and every following patterns like this has sliders instead of a random anti jump. Being consistent is one thing, but this is just a sloppy miss imo.

Furthermore, I actually agree that it needs more modding. This map shows that you are not a very experienced mapper (I don't think it's a bad map, just unpolished, a bit sloppy and unreasonable patterns) and should for the sake of the map seek more mods.

I also think overmapping is fine, even if it's 1/8 slider repeats to enhance something that would do well with an enhancement.


Also don't give me kd, whatever you choose to do.

This dialogue kinda makes sense here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKlnEmJ ... be&t=9m32s
Because it doesn't really matter? I felt like using this pattern in this part just because it felt right to me, both of those patterns work for the song and there's no real reason to exclude the use of one of them.

If you want to point some more thoughts, please do, I am pretty firm about my thoughts but I do look for others'.

Spaghetti wrote:

You're arguing over spilled milk.

If so many people with a large amount of experience agree there's something wrong, then there's probably something wrong.

As Smokeman said, nobody is forcing you to rank this. No matter how well it plays or sounds or whatever, if it doesn't abide by the strict requirements of the ranking process, there's not much you can do, no matter how hard you whine.

Read this post for more info: http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3619207
That's kinda ironic, because even though Loctav posted this, the main points in his post still persisted and HW got the beatmap ranked. I should note that some QATs were thinking that the map was just fine after the first rank, however it got dq again and again, HW still maintained most of her subjective stuff, and it still got ranked.

Now a new issue rises: One QAT might find the map great and good, yet an other will say it's unpolished, unkrankable or anything else, where is the border line, who decides, are some QAT members better than others?

Had only Genryuu Kaiko wasn't ranked in the end, I wouldn't even write this post, you could clearly see the change of thoughts and the different opinions in that thread, it's just.. I don't know, weird?

Kroytz wrote:

nice song ;o
I know, right?

Smokeman wrote:

btw 04:17:893 (1,1) - i can't rly get behind it. What exactly made him make those ugly sliders. This beautiful song can't possible evoke these unworldly shapes in ones head.
I love those sliders, some might too, some might not.

As for everything else I pretty much agree with the other people that responded to your comment.
NescafEh
Avishay's comment honestly just feels like someone who is salty for getting their maps rejected and is trying to blame the system instead of changing their maps. Sure, the system is not perfect, but, that is why its moderated by people who have experience in what they are doing. Also, the bias you speak of is not a bias but an element of trust and mapper's knowledge - Hollow Wings can get such original maps ranked because she has the knowledge to justify doing so (a knowledge she gained through experience)
Topic Starter
Avishay

Im so mad bro wrote:

Avishay's comment honestly just feels like someone who is salty for getting their maps rejected and is trying to blame the system instead of changing their maps. Sure, the system is not perfect, but, that is why its moderated by people who have experience in what they are doing. Also, the bias you speak of is not a bias but an element of trust and mapper's knowledge - Hollow Wings can get such original maps ranked because she has the knowledge to justify doing so (a knowledge she gained through experience)
Relevant username.

Eitherway, element of trust and mapper's knowledge? Sounds like complete nonsense, it becomes irrelevant when you invent new stuff. I am salty and my posts explains why, I still cannot accept the statement 'experience in what they are doing', like hell, I know I am not the best mapper in the community, but I am not inexperienced at all as well, I have put thought in almost everything I do and it is justified through play.

And the bias comes by the fact that other people are allowed to do so, while me or other people with the same issue are not.
captin1
arrogance is only going to make people not want to deal with you man, chill out
Topic Starter
Avishay

captin1 wrote:

arrogance is only going to make people not want to deal with you man, chill out
Along with the saltiness I did raise some points that are general, is that wrong?

But anyway, what is the solution to my case? Fixing the issues stated in the mods? Although imo they don't really matter since they don't affect the gameplay at all? Honest question.
captin1
word of advice from someone who has gone through map drama: stop posting.

take a day or two, recollect your thoughts and stop getting caught up in the moment. this doesn't need to get solved right this minute. be patient, take a step back, and look at your map again. you'll either find: a. some of the points raised are valid and can be worth taking into account or b. you'll be able to come up with better and more concrete reasons for doing things other than "this is my style" or "x mapper did it so why can't i"
Liiraye

Avishay wrote:

Because it doesn't really matter? I felt like using this pattern in this part just because it felt right to me, both of those patterns work for the song and there's no real reason to exclude the use of one of them.

Avishay wrote:

captin1 wrote:

arrogance is only going to make people not want to deal with you man, chill out
But anyway, what is the solution to my case? Fixing the issues stated in the mods? Although imo they don't really matter since they don't affect the gameplay at all? Honest question.
But it does matter and it does affect gameplay. If it didn't, I wouldn't have taken my precious neet time to try and explain this to you. You can't use a consistent pattern on 9/10 parts and then when the same part comes up again you decide to "feel" and leave it blank, making an anti jump. Does that make sense to you? Can you explain your pattern without saying you felt it was "ok"?
If both patterns work fine then why are you doing one pattern for all but one of those parts? Why are you being so stubborn about something so incredibly unnecessary?

The response you gave me + the fact that you don't even know or try to understand what other people find to be bad/sloppy about your map when they explain it only fortifies my statement. Your map just screams inexperienced and you need to get your head out of the gutter bro. Because even though I say I find it inexperienced, I do think you have some cool and somewhat original ideas going on as well, so don't get defensive when I try to help you please.


Again, I hate modding
Topic Starter
Avishay

Nube wrote:

But it does matter and it does affect gameplay. If it didn't, I wouldn't have taken my precious neet time to try and explain this to you. You can't use a consistent pattern on 9/10 parts and then when the same part comes up again you decide to "feel" and leave it blank, making an anti jump. Does that make sense to you? Can you explain your pattern without saying you felt it was "ok"?
If both patterns work fine then why are you doing one pattern for all but one of those parts? Why are you being so stubborn about something so incredibly unnecessary?

The response you gave me + the fact that you don't even know or try to understand what other people find to be bad/sloppy about your map when they explain it only fortifies my statement. Your map just screams inexperienced and you need to get your head out of the gutter bro. Because even though I say I find it inexperienced, I do think you have some cool and somewhat original ideas going on as well, so don't get defensive when I try to help you please.


Again, I hate modding
The stuff you are saying do make sense, it's like that because the pattern overall was different, a note used to exist at 03:05:218, but I removed it due to the DQ, regardless if I wanted to have it or not. But honestly, the patterns at 00:59:293 (1) - and 03:04:093 (1) - are completely different, is there a reason to use the same slider? The latter is more intense and has bigger spacing, how is it mandatory to do the same as before, how does it feel bad playing? I would understand if those patterns were identical excluding that slider..

I'll take captin's advice for now.
Feb

a loli wrote:

Feb wrote:

actually genryuu kaiko has premanent 1/4's but the sounds are imo not very audible.
No it does not.
not permanent yes - the slower parts aren't.
Smokeman

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
Man look...

You don't rly have to rank a map... noone is forcing you...

This is a more polite way to tell him to go fuck himself. No more of that please. He makes a point about double standards and favoritism, and that is something to be addressed, regardless of him wanting to rank a map or not.
No, This is a more polite way of telling him to take a min to chill. I tell him that because in the end of the day he wont gain anything from ranking his map but the feeling of self accomplishment (and internet fame for a day or two). Yes he recaps all of the ranking proccess we have so far and tries to blend in some perpective. I am not denying that. It's just that i was more concerned about the way he viewed criticism from other mappers than the whole ranking drama process every once in a while.

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
All the statements should be made according to logical conclusions from the orginal work, which means even tho there are countles interpretations there is just one (or rarely a few) which is (are) more "right" then all the others. Does this mean you are wrong? By all means NO... but you arent right either... noone can be. Infact you can only get close to the "truth" with your interpretation (or theory) until someone falsifies it. Depending on the extent you have to either modify it or simply dismiss it completely.

ok, so let me entangle that.
- When we interpret art, the interpretation should be based on the original and it should be linked to it through logic
- There are countless interpretations
- Some are more right than others
- You aren't wrong
- You aren't right
- Nobody can be right
- you are right until you are falsified
- the one who falsified you is more right than you, hence why you have to follow his lead and change your interpretation that is not right and not wrong, so you can make it more right, except nobody can be right in the first place, although the one who falsified you is more right than you. It should also be logical.

I don't even know what you were getting at with that, honestly. That whole paragraph is a contradictory mess.
damn it was too late for that shit yesterday... Hope i can rephrase it

- interpretation or Statemnts based on logical conlusions from the piece of art
- As many interpretations as there are ppl and time in the world BUT...
- when i talk about "more right" i meant more logical or more grounded in that regard
- being less grounded doesnt mean you aren't wrong
- but being more grounded makes the interpretation more "believable" (or acceptable)
- which means, if you look at an interpretation which is more believabe than one which takes 4 detours around the work of art to make a statement.
- That doesnt mean you can interpret what ever you feel like. If the logical conclusion is wrong, well this just leads to a wrong interpretation.
- OK now i fucked up: i tried to tie in the definition of the scientific method... (fml it was late) I wanted to get to the point where even a logic based interpretation can be wrong, but when that happens you dont simply dismiss it (again depends on the severity of the problem). problem is this doesnt apply well on mapping so lets just forget that.

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.

Now this is something I can get behind. Listen to experience, for it most likely knows better than you do.
The second thing you said is disagreeable again though. People gain something from fucking shit up, and if you observe them for a bit you see that very clearly. They have personal grudges, suck up to other people, or just enjoy their power. They defend their own opinions vigorously once they are out instead of backing down in an argument, because nothing is harder than admitting that you were wrong. That can lead to pretty nasty situations, where the one with less power has no other option left than following along. Generally, there can be plenty of reasons why people fuck shit up. Not to say that QAT's are essentially evil, but they aren't angels either. They are human, and humans tend to be unfair every once in a while. You got to look out for that, and not deny it by saying "but they don't have nothing to gain".
Why shouldnt you listen to experience... rly...
Ofc you shouldnt blindly follow your elders or smth just because they know more, but not listening to someone who clearly knows better than you is plain ignorance...

i still believe in society a little bit. We arent all assholes you know.

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
if you cant accept that then just dont rank it man.

One last time, please please stop with this sentiment. This is what a system looks like that can't accept criticism and change.
"oh you think theres something wrong with the system and you feel like it could be improved? Hah, fuck off then"
That is not what you want. Definitely not.
IMO the system isnt corrupt. I am also a strong believer of everyone speaking out his thoughts. I got surprised you read that sentiment out of the post tho (i was quite shoked dude).

to genralize: a ranked map is the same as any other map. A couple of ppl just took some time to look at it and gave it some rankings and tagged it as "ranked". So in the core a ranked map is the same as a graveyarded map. But To get this nice tag with the score boards you need to be ready for criticism from the community. If you think these ppl are assholes and only aim to harm you, then why the fuck would you want that useless tag. Why would you want to gift this shitty community your masterpiece. But if you think these ppl have the intention of helping you make your map better then accepting their opinions about your product shouldn't be a issue. The process rly isnt that difficult either. You post, they mod, you evaluate, BNs evaluate, and if all goes well.. voilà it is ranked and everyone is happy.
Spaghetti

Spaghetti wrote:

You're arguing over spilled milk.
Frostmourne
Hopefully this gets re-qualified soon xD finally found this song mapped!~
I so love this song and the map is very fun to play
at least it manages to eliminate boredom of the song itself :)
Good luck :oops:
Topic Starter
Avishay
Alright, clean head, let's do this.
Topic Starter
Avishay

ohad1881 wrote:

00:07:693 (1) - why here did you put a nc on the strong beat and 00:02:893 and 00:05:293 you didn't? Hm.. I'd say because the NCs are indicators for pattern changes.
00:35:893 (1) - i don't see a reason for this nc Alright.
00:40:843 (4) - you are leading to a strong vocal here so why stop the flow and stack? 3 is the strong beat, therefore the jump between 00:40:543 (2,3) - , however 4 is not as strong, and it feels like a leftover, a stack goes well because I am able to do an other jump with the vocals right after.
01:00:493 (3) - nc? 01:00:043 (1) - here remove The better choice indeed, rearranged some NCs here.
01:01:694 (5) - i feel like you should give more emphasis on this by a bit spacing it, it's to close and weird to play imo. There's no justification for emphasization here.
01:06:493 (1) - ^^ Sure.
01:09:343 (2) - ^^ I could but I feel like it's forcing it too much, I slowed down with the pascing from here 01:07:693 (1) - and then resumed it here 01:10:993 (1) - . I think leaving it as it is is the better choice.
01:19:543 (8,9,1) - you are leading to a big place with a lot of vocals here, i feel you should show it by spacing it much more. mb you can stack the end of 01:19:693 (1) - with 01:19:243 (6) . Actually this goes nicely for various other reasons as well, changed.
01:22:093 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1) - seems like here you ignored what is coming next, you are leading to something big so why not showing it, i really think you should space this part a bit like here 03:26:893 (5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - It could work, but how am I ignoring what's coming next? The pattern is pretty intense. The first pattern has more back and forth movements compared to the second one, and both has special looking structure.
01:49:693 (1) - way to close for this vocal imo. I agree, changed some other pattern so it became like that, fixed.
01:52:093 (4) - nc here and also space it. NC V, no spacing change.
01:54:118 (2,3) - i saw a lot of problems with this one, so i can suggest to make this slider 01:53:893 (1) end here 01:54:118 (and mb you can silence the end) Pattern changed.
02:06:493 (1,2,3,4) - you can space every note in gradation, the vocals are becoming stronger every note. If I wanted to do that I'd follow the drums, but I am following the ringing sounds which stay the same.
02:26:293 (4) - ctrl g? strong beat. Sure.
02:37:093 (3) - you can make it more symmetrical. Should be better now.
03:12:943 (4,5,6) - space it Why? I don't think it is justified.
04:05:293 (1) - you can improve it, use grid snap. Too lazy, symmetry is hard, it looks almost perfect.
04:16:093 (7) - nc? sure.
04:43:993 (1,2) - switch nc? v
04:59:793 (7) - move this slider here 04:59:743 ? Nope, the slider is snapped correctly.
i do feel you can be more consistent in this, and you should check your emphasis on some notes in and before the hype parts.
but as irre wrote, about the huge problem of the consistency of this map and the overmapping, i feel like he is wrong, it should be improved of course,but it's not a huge deal... vocals are ok with the emphasis of notes, i didn't see a lot of overmapping actually, and about the consistency, he might not made the same patterns, but he didn't skip vocals, he used spacing and emphasis properly, so i don't see a big problem here tbh.

so what can i say, my speeches will be useless, like every other speeches of an unknown person that no one gives a shit about what he will say, gl avishay.
Thanks, I'll just see what I can do it to improve it now.
Topic Starter
Avishay
ok how to get people to comment here?
P o M u T a
m4m

I don't know how to mod this. but, I testplayed and I hope more nice play.


  1. 00:40:693 (3,4) - make jump. more fun and fit song. My suggest (3) move (x:76 y:264), (4) move (x:164 y:384)
  2. 00:52:393 (2,3) - why 1/8? took drum echo? I want circle. But, you want keep 1/8, i recommend slider end reduce volume.. so, fit song.
  3. 01:17:293 (1) - slider head, Samplest:Normal and add finish. This sound too big Cymbals part. It's fit.



which is loved by some and hated by others. I know feel. but, i can't speak english almost. so, how to explanation.
but, Let's clear a hurdle.
good luck!
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