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Hanatan - Hajimete no Oto

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Topic Starter
Avishay
Congratulations, you win.

Removed all of the 1/8 notes that have no sign of appereance in the song, so yeah there are places which the 1/8 are not easily audible but they exist indeed, e.g: 01:06:943 (3,4,1) - 01:24:943 (1,2,3) - or whatever.
byfar
just dropping by and giving my 2 cents

didnt look at the map, but im pretty sure that as long as you silence the slider ends (or not) and that it fits with the song (such as slightly held out longer beats, etc) it should be fine.

a lot of maps that contain extended 3/4 sliders (which acts as a hold note for held vocals, despite not having an actual beat on the 3/4) are currently ranked and can still be ranked iirc
Topic Starter
Avishay

byfar wrote:

just dropping by and giving my 2 cents

didnt look at the map, but im pretty sure that as long as you silence the slider ends (or not) and that it fits with the song (such as slightly held out longer beats, etc) it should be fine.

a lot of maps that contain extended 3/4 sliders (which acts as a hold note for held vocals, despite not having an actual beat on the 3/4) are currently ranked and can still be ranked iirc
Yeah I am aware of it, but mostly the riot discussion here was due to the triplets I used to emphasize vocals.

Eitherway, waiting for Irre's response now I guess?
Irreversible
Silenced ends are indeed a good technique to fully emphasize vocals.

01:53:893 (1,2,3,4) - Still overmapped.
01:51:793 (3,4,5) - Could benefit of being silenced, too.
02:43:693 (5,1) - Why is it NC'd like this? Shouldn't it be on the downbeat?

My opinion is simply that you should get more mods
Topic Starter
Avishay

Irreversible wrote:

Silenced ends are indeed a good technique to fully emphasize vocals.

01:53:893 (1,2,3,4) - Still overmapped. Please listen closely, delete the note and you'll hear a note there.
01:51:793 (3,4,5) - Could benefit of being silenced, too. I have no objections, alright.
02:43:693 (5,1) - Why is it NC'd like this? Shouldn't it be on the downbeat? Moved NC to 02:43:393 (1) -

My opinion is simply that you should get more mods
Shushan
00:07:693 (1) - why here did you put a nc on the strong beat and 00:02:893 and 00:05:293 you didn't?
00:35:893 (1) - i don't see a reason for this nc
00:40:843 (4) - you are leading to a strong vocal here so why stop the flow and stack?
01:00:493 (3) - nc? 01:00:043 (1) - here remove
01:01:694 (5) - i feel like you should give more emphasis on this by a bit spacing it, it's to close and weird to play imo.
01:06:493 (1) - ^^
01:09:343 (2) - ^^
01:19:543 (8,9,1) - you are leading to a big place with a lot of vocals here, i feel you should show it by spacing it much more. mb you can stack the end of 01:19:693 (1) - with 01:19:243 (6) .
01:22:093 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1) - seems like here you ignored what is coming next, you are leading to something big so why not showing it, i really think you should space this part a bit like here 03:26:893 (5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
01:49:693 (1) - way to close for this vocal imo.
01:52:093 (4) - nc here and also space it.
01:54:118 (2,3) - i saw a lot of problems with this one, so i can suggest to make this slider 01:53:893 (1) end here 01:54:118 (and mb you can silence the end)
02:06:493 (1,2,3,4) - you can space every note in gradation, the vocals are becoming stronger every note.
02:26:293 (4) - ctrl g? strong beat.
02:37:093 (3) - you can make it more symmetrical.
03:12:943 (4,5,6) - space it
04:05:293 (1) - you can improve it, use grid snap.
04:16:093 (7) - nc?
04:43:993 (1,2) - switch nc?
04:59:793 (7) - move this slider here 04:59:743 ?
i do feel you can be more consistent in this, and you should check your emphasis on some notes in and before the hype parts.
but as irre wrote, about the huge problem of the consistency of this map and the overmapping, i feel like he is wrong, it should be improved of course,but it's not a huge deal... vocals are ok with the emphasis of notes, i didn't see a lot of overmapping actually, and about the consistency, he might not made the same patterns, but he didn't skip vocals, he used spacing and emphasis properly, so i don't see a big problem here tbh.

so what can i say, my speeches will be useless, like every other speeches of an unknown person that no one gives a shit about what he will say, gl avishay.
Topic Starter
Avishay
Alright so, hello to everyone who decides to read this long post, I'd like to raise some points to get you into my perspective.

I apologize for the aggressiveness of my previous posts towards who ever gave their opinion, I'll get on why later.


So, let's start with - what exactly is a beatmap?

A map, or a beatmap, or mapping in general, is a really abstract subject. Different people will different thoughts of what it is, such as:
  1. A song.
  2. Something you can play.
  3. The mapper's song interpretation.
Obviously all of those are connected in some way, since they are what a beatmap is.
So, I'd say that generally a beatmap is a song that some mapper mapped to playable objects which the player could interact with.

What are those objects?
  1. Circles, which are simply pressed by the player to present a beat that exists in the music. (However in the current mapping-meta circles are starting to be used for different emphasizations, which I'll discuss later)
  2. Sliders, which can be used to present held instruments in the song, held vocals, or just a connecting point between two beats. I should add that sliders are manifold, you can do so much with them, the options are limited.
  3. Spinners, which well, you spin. (I don't really spinners that much, but they are useful)
  4. Hitsounds, which are a big core in the concept of a rhythm game such as osu!, personally it gives me huge satisfaction to hear them play perfectly with the rhythm. You could use them to enhance the way the map is played or the song is heard, hitsounds are not necessarily tied to the song and in my opinion should not be most of the time as well. Hitsounds are used to get the player in the rhythm and beat, to strengthen the song and many more.
  5. Timing points, which are a must, because well, you need to be tied to some rhythm the song creates, and yes, this is a critical thing in mapping, so it can't be anything less than perfect.
  6. Inherited Points (SV modifiers), which are not used every time and everywhere, but it helps the mapper to express himself a bit better.
This sums all (most?) of the objects generally without getting in too much detail.

Cool, so people are using those objects to present the song in their way, not necessarily the best way, but their way. As osu! had to start somewhere, the maps and the mappers did too, I don't know too much about the mapping-meta overall, but if you are interested you should read Hata-tan's post [url=Not necessarily]right here[/url], it's a good read.

Players evolved, mappers evolved, maps evolved and obviously the game itself did as well (thanks Peppy!), we are at a point in time where there's a huge variety in map and player levels, high-skilled players want to enjoy a big, diverse map-pool of mapped songs. I'll use an example:

- Rise Against - Prayer of the Refugee -
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/11090 - An old 2010 mapset submitted by Blatzk (with a Guest Difficulty created by Aqua92)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/181689 - A relatively new mapset submitted by EvilElvis (collaborated with various mappers)

They are so different, the new mapset includes more difficulties to approach more players, it's great (and the old mapset was great by the terms of 2010).

There's nothing like the feeling of finishing the map(set?) of a song you like, does it end here? Nah. The player now need to choose if he wants to submit the map so everyone could find it on the website (or osu!direct), which most of the times, he'll do, afterwards he'll to pick between two routes:
  1. Leaving the map as it is, letting it die slowly and get to the beatmap graveyard (no worries you can still download and play those).
  2. Getting the beatmap more exposure by using the ranking system, if you'll get your beatmap ranked, leaderboards, performance points and ratings are going to be enabled, along with the appearance on the ranked section in the website.
So, what does it take for a beatmap to get ranked?

First of all, following the rules as seen here, no exceptions (?), please note that rules are changed over time so maps from different times are attached to a different set of rules. And the second thing, community acceptance.

Although first time I see anyone use this term, community acceptance is pretty much everything needed to get a beatmap ranked, with the rules as exception. Therefore you might see a beatmap that is widely accepted and is fun to play, yet it cannot be ranked because of the rules.

Community acceptance goes through several levels in order to get your beatmap ranked:
  1. Self acceptance - Your map, your interpretation, you are pretty much the map itself, you should be able to accept yourself.
  2. Other mappers' acceptance, or modders / modding - Other mappers are taking a look at your map, they will point their dissatisfactions with your map, usually with their way of thought and a small explanation in order to get you to understand their perspective. Mappers will respond to the modders, usually if they accepted the notes / suggestions, and if not, usually an explanation is added (sadly this is not true to all cases).
  3. Experienced mappers' acceptance, or BNs / Beatmap Nominators - Those people volunteered and then picked by the community managers to stand in the way through the ranking process, they are doing the same thing as less experienced modders do, but usually have better understanding of beatmap terms such as flow, patterns or anything else to have a fun beatmap to play. In order to get your map ranked you need two beatmap nominators to accept your map, the first acceptance will be presented as a bubble icon, and the second acceptance will be your entrance to the qualified section with the heart icon. (please note that for approval maps - non-set mapsets the acceptance requires 3 BNs or 2 bubbles and 1 approval icon)
  4. Super-experienced mappers' acceptance, or QAT / a member in the Quality Assurance Team - You're just one step before getting to the ranked section, you are in the qualified section waiting to get through the qualified maps queue and having your desire come true. However, although experienced mappers' have accepted it, there might be unrankable issues in your map such as transgressing the criteria or a lot of 'quality' problems which in the QAT's opinion are ruining the experience of playing the beatmap.
If you got through all of those stages, hooray! Your beatmap is ranked (although there are some cases where unrankable issues slipped through the qualified sections and when found are disqualified) and everyone can enjoy it completely!

However, we should remember that mapping is a huge abstract subject, some may find a specific map enjoyable while the other will find it awful (let's ignore the difficulty restriction for now), mapping is subjective and it comes in a lot of sizes and shapes, some will agree with the mapper's choices and some will not, some might find a specific pattern fun while some not. My point is that with the huge development maps have gone through the years, they are not static, they are not the same, they are versatile.

In order to support my plea, I'll list some known mappers in the community with some words and examples.

Monstrata - The god of hexagons, appeared exactly when this year began, he rose pretty quickly to be one of the famous mappers by having strong structs, fun flow, great movements and enjoyful pool of songs he maps, and obviously the great pp everyone loves. Some notable maps:
  1. M.Iz - Kakenukeru Anime Song Medley IV
  2. AKINO from bless4 & CHiCO with HoneyWorks - MIIRO vs. Ai no Scenario
    There's not too much to say on his maps, they are widely accepted and enjoyed by almost everyone.
Skystar (Previously Amamiya Yuko) - The god of irregularity and hitsounds. Gimmicky, creative, original beatmaps are Skystar itself, there are way too many words to describe Skystar's maps, there are a huge variety of different styles Skystar presented, each style might be favorable by different players. One bold thing I want to discuss is the fact that Skystar is one of the mappers that brought overmapping as an acceptable thing nowadays, the overmapping is expressed with mapping objects in a way that does not follow the music, and is generally hitsounded, the combination of those enhances the experience of playing the map, or at least that was Skystar's vision, it became somewhat accepted, yet still controversial. Some people may refer this to complete overmap, and some as artifical rhythm. Notable maps that possess the concept:
  1. EGOIST - Fallen (TV Edit) - Obviously I am referring just to the Extra difficulty, which is a collab with Irreversible, fanzhen and Skystar. This map spits out creativity and irregularity, some people find it really weird and not fun, some of those will ask why is it even ranked, while the others are enjoying it, perhaps because of differences in skill levels or other reasons. I will add and say, there are overmapped objects, notes that are not present in the song or artifical rhythms created by the mappers.
  2. Hanatan - Tengaku & Hanatan - Kagerou Variation, Starting @09:24:962 - Yeah, it's great in my opinion, but you can't ignore the huge use of circles in triplets, and I'll tell you something, they don't even exist, they're overmapped, and I think it's great.
Please note that the way I use the term god may be overexaggerating, there are many more great mappers which could replace the mappers I listed.

There are so many differences between those 2 mappers and you could even create groups and categorize the mappers amongst others such as pishifat, Hollow Wings and many more, there are so many ways to go with it.

So, how does everything connect to the main subject - me, and this beatmap, and everything in general?

There are several problems with everything, and I want to give those stuff exposure:
  1. Mapping is abstract, subjective, huge, it can not be static, mostly it is not the same between different mappers, but it is possible. In addition to mapping, mappers, players and gameplay are pretty much the same.
  2. Ranking is not and cannot be objective, never.
  3. One problem which is derived from the previous statement - two mappers might be as good as each other, one might have some friends, connections, which could lead to easier ranking progression, this problem is not that easy to solve, amongst the pool of people that don't really have those 'connections' there are bad mappers and good mappers, BNs are doing their job volunteeringly and you bet they can't check everyone's map, I'm sure it's tough.
  4. An other problem - some people will dislike a mapper's choice, it can come in different ways: The song, the patterns, the hitsounds, the asthetics, anything. I'd like to refer to something BlueDragon said almost a year ago on Genryuu Kaiko's thread:

    Blue Dragon wrote:

    OH NO people have different opinions!

    What if the maps that you consider good, are actually 1/2 spam with no spacing which people worship as "the best maps" such as some of caren's or silynn's maps, that barely follow anything in the ranking criteria and have zero technical qualify?
    People should know that maps that get ranked are the ones who have rankable quality. If you don't like it, someone else does. That's why it got ranked in the first place. People should really acknowledge that other people have different opinions.

    "This map is an overmapped piece of shit, it's not an opinion, it's a fact! just listen to the music guys, you're wrong and i'm right!!!!!"
    This is pretty much the essence of this post, there's something completely wrong here.
    @Irreversible:
  5. In relation to the previous problem, I feel like there's bias in the community, known mappers are passing through qualification with the same said 'problems' that other people have in their maps. I should say that the QATs went through different changes lately, more transpernancy, more discussion and such, yet the problem persists.
  6. @Irreversible:

    Is it just me, or does it seem completely absurd? You are contradicting yourself, just the fact that other people are doing it yet are not addressed is a red flag.
I guess that as long as this gains exposure, people will present more problems, as I am sure they exist.

I disagreed and still do with the disqualification, I explained my thoughts, and I am still able to do so, as far as I know, people do enjoy the map, it represents the song and my intentions really well, yet it still got disqualified. The only reason I removed the 1/8 are because I thought I could just finish with it and avoid the headache involved, but it seems like I can't, so here I am.

I will appreciate comments and insight from players and mappers.

tl;dr: read this holy shit it took me almost 4 hours to write this Take a look at the problems right above ^
Raiden
holy shit avishay

don't wanna give the party popping but if so many people tell you something (and they know what they do) then it probably means that something xd
Topic Starter
Avishay

Raiden wrote:

holy shit avishay

don't wanna give the party popping but if so many people tell you something (and they know what they do) then it probably means that something xd
So many? Regardless I've raised some points generally, I'd love to get a response.
Feb
actually genryuu kaiko has premanent 1/4's but the sounds are imo not very audible.

I think some person should step in and declare finally what the fuck actually overmapping is.
People speak from overmapping and then both mean different things again. To me 04:26:893 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - theres really nothing in the song, I re-heard it like 50 times theres nothing. And that's what I understand of overmapping. Mapping to nothing. If you can explain to which beats or vocal you've mapped to and ppl can understand it afterwards than it's fine.

I partially agree with you on some points. Just work around your map it's not bad by any means. Don't do repulsive changes it doesn't help the map at all. If you feel like your 1/8's belong there just put em there and explain why.

good luck on the map. I love when ppl have their own styles. rip me.
buny

Feb wrote:

actually genryuu kaiko has premanent 1/4's but the sounds are imo not very audible.
No it does not.
Liiraye
So having skimmed through a bit, I'm not really going to mod this but I just wonder why 03:05:293 (1) - isnt a slider while 01:00:493 (3) - has a slider, and every following patterns like this has sliders instead of a random anti jump. Being consistent is one thing, but this is just a sloppy miss imo.

Furthermore, I actually agree that it needs more modding. This map shows that you are not a very experienced mapper (I don't think it's a bad map, just unpolished, a bit sloppy and unreasonable patterns) and should for the sake of the map seek more mods.

I also think overmapping is fine, even if it's 1/8 slider repeats to enhance something that would do well with an enhancement.


Also don't give me kd, whatever you choose to do.

This dialogue kinda makes sense here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKlnEmJ ... be&t=9m32s
Smokeman
Man look...

You don't rly have to rank a map... noone is forcing you...

One thing we all learned in school was to respect eachother. Just like respecting eachothers opinoins (to an extent). But when we talk about the interpretation of a work of art be it a piece of music, a prose text or a poem things become quite different. Interpreting somthing should be based around the work of art we are dealing with. All the statements should be made according to logical conclusions from the orginal work, which means even tho there are countles interpretations there is just one (or rarely a few) which is (are) more "right" then all the others. Does this mean you are wrong? By all means NO... but you arent right either... noone can be. Infact you can only get close to the "truth" with your interpretation (or theory) until someone falsifies it. Depending on the extent you have to either modify it or simply dismiss it completely.

I will make this following statement only after havin looked through your map in the editor once:

IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.

IF you dont like these opinions... then just don't rank it man. As you stated
"Leaving the map as it is, letting it die slowly and get to the beatmap graveyard (no worries you can still download and play those)"
Your map will stll be there. The map will still be there w/o it being "molested" by all those "rude" opinions. (a map will "die" regardless of being ranked or in the graveyar)

I think of the whole ranking proccess like this: Narrowing down the best possible outcome with the current mapset. If that isnt possible then it just wont be ranked (or end up a shitty ranked map, but when was the last time you saw a truly "shitty" map)

if you cant accept that then just dont rank it man.

Sidenote: I am not telling you to blindly follow everything ppl say. Stand by your opinion, but learn to let go aswell.
In the end of the day, we all just want to pass by feeling happy or something :)

(sorry for spelling mistakes its late over here)
Liiraye

Smokeman wrote:

IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.

I have to strongly disagree here, there's nothing I despise more than modding a map :D I'm just here because it's almost 3 am & I saw a post on reddit.
Smokeman
Smokeman wrote:
IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.



I have to strongly disagree here, there's nothing I despise more than modding a map :D I'm just here because it's almost 3 am & I saw a post on reddit.

i was more talking about the all the ppl attempting to mod the map before his mild rant.

On the other hand you are not rly trying to do him any harm either, which is what i tried to emphasise by calling out all the possible good intentions someone would have modding this (in other words: ppl who give a fuck).

Ye i saw it too and then my hands started typing... wierd thing rly.

its late

btw 04:17:893 (1,1) - i can't rly get behind it. What exactly made him make those ugly sliders. This beautiful song can't possible evoke these unworldly shapes in ones head.
Spaghetti
You're arguing over spilled milk.

If so many people with a large amount of experience agree there's something wrong, then there's probably something wrong.

As Smokeman said, nobody is forcing you to rank this. No matter how well it plays or sounds or whatever, if it doesn't abide by the strict requirements of the ranking process, there's not much you can do, no matter how hard you whine.

Read this post for more info: http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3619207
Railey2

Smokeman wrote:

Man look...

You don't rly have to rank a map... noone is forcing you...
This is a more polite way to tell him to go fuck himself. No more of that please. He makes a point about double standards and favoritism, and that is something to be addressed, regardless of him wanting to rank a map or not.

Smokeman wrote:

All the statements should be made according to logical conclusions from the orginal work, which means even tho there are countles interpretations there is just one (or rarely a few) which is (are) more "right" then all the others. Does this mean you are wrong? By all means NO... but you arent right either... noone can be. Infact you can only get close to the "truth" with your interpretation (or theory) until someone falsifies it. Depending on the extent you have to either modify it or simply dismiss it completely.
ok, so let me entangle that.
- When we interpret art, the interpretation should be based on the original and it should be linked to it through logic
- There are countless interpretations
- Some are more right than others
- You aren't wrong
- You aren't right
- Nobody can be right
- you are right until you are falsified
- the one who falsified you is more right than you, hence why you have to follow his lead and change your interpretation that is not right and not wrong, so you can make it more right, except nobody can be right in the first place, although the one who falsified you is more right than you. It should also be logical.

I don't even know what you were getting at with that, honestly. That whole paragraph is a contradictory mess.

Smokeman wrote:

IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.
Now this is something I can get behind. Listen to experience, for it most likely knows better than you do.
The second thing you said is disagreeable again though. People gain something from fucking shit up, and if you observe them for a bit you see that very clearly. They have personal grudges, suck up to other people, or just enjoy their power. They defend their own opinions vigorously once they are out instead of backing down in an argument, because nothing is harder than admitting that you were wrong. That can lead to pretty nasty situations, where the one with less power has no other option left than following along. Generally, there can be plenty of reasons why people fuck shit up. Not to say that QAT's are essentially evil, but they aren't angels either. They are human, and humans tend to be unfair every once in a while. You got to look out for that, and not deny it by saying "but they don't have nothing to gain".


Smokeman wrote:

if you cant accept that then just dont rank it man.
One last time, please please stop with this sentiment. This is what a system looks like that can't accept criticism and change.
"oh you think theres something wrong with the system and you feel like it could be improved? Hah, fuck off then"
That is not what you want. Definitely not.
Kroytz
nice song ;o
Topic Starter
Avishay

Feb wrote:

actually genryuu kaiko has premanent 1/4's but the sounds are imo not very audible.

I think some person should step in and declare finally what the fuck actually overmapping is.
People speak from overmapping and then both mean different things again. To me 04:26:893 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - theres really nothing in the song, I re-heard it like 50 times theres nothing. And that's what I understand of overmapping. Mapping to nothing. If you can explain to which beats or vocal you've mapped to and ppl can understand it afterwards than it's fine.

I partially agree with you on some points. Just work around your map it's not bad by any means. Don't do repulsive changes it doesn't help the map at all. If you feel like your 1/8's belong there just put em there and explain why.

good luck on the map. I love when ppl have their own styles. rip me.
My intention with this overmapped pattern is to create the emphasizition I felt necessary in the last kiai, I don't really think it was overdone at all, perhaps I could've put some flavor with hitsounds. Most of the 1/8 were intended to do the same around the map.


Nube wrote:

So having skimmed through a bit, I'm not really going to mod this but I just wonder why 03:05:293 (1) - isnt a slider while 01:00:493 (3) - has a slider, and every following patterns like this has sliders instead of a random anti jump. Being consistent is one thing, but this is just a sloppy miss imo.

Furthermore, I actually agree that it needs more modding. This map shows that you are not a very experienced mapper (I don't think it's a bad map, just unpolished, a bit sloppy and unreasonable patterns) and should for the sake of the map seek more mods.

I also think overmapping is fine, even if it's 1/8 slider repeats to enhance something that would do well with an enhancement.


Also don't give me kd, whatever you choose to do.

This dialogue kinda makes sense here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKlnEmJ ... be&t=9m32s
Because it doesn't really matter? I felt like using this pattern in this part just because it felt right to me, both of those patterns work for the song and there's no real reason to exclude the use of one of them.

If you want to point some more thoughts, please do, I am pretty firm about my thoughts but I do look for others'.

Spaghetti wrote:

You're arguing over spilled milk.

If so many people with a large amount of experience agree there's something wrong, then there's probably something wrong.

As Smokeman said, nobody is forcing you to rank this. No matter how well it plays or sounds or whatever, if it doesn't abide by the strict requirements of the ranking process, there's not much you can do, no matter how hard you whine.

Read this post for more info: http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3619207
That's kinda ironic, because even though Loctav posted this, the main points in his post still persisted and HW got the beatmap ranked. I should note that some QATs were thinking that the map was just fine after the first rank, however it got dq again and again, HW still maintained most of her subjective stuff, and it still got ranked.

Now a new issue rises: One QAT might find the map great and good, yet an other will say it's unpolished, unkrankable or anything else, where is the border line, who decides, are some QAT members better than others?

Had only Genryuu Kaiko wasn't ranked in the end, I wouldn't even write this post, you could clearly see the change of thoughts and the different opinions in that thread, it's just.. I don't know, weird?

Kroytz wrote:

nice song ;o
I know, right?

Smokeman wrote:

btw 04:17:893 (1,1) - i can't rly get behind it. What exactly made him make those ugly sliders. This beautiful song can't possible evoke these unworldly shapes in ones head.
I love those sliders, some might too, some might not.

As for everything else I pretty much agree with the other people that responded to your comment.
Im so mad bro
Avishay's comment honestly just feels like someone who is salty for getting their maps rejected and is trying to blame the system instead of changing their maps. Sure, the system is not perfect, but, that is why its moderated by people who have experience in what they are doing. Also, the bias you speak of is not a bias but an element of trust and mapper's knowledge - Hollow Wings can get such original maps ranked because she has the knowledge to justify doing so (a knowledge she gained through experience)
Topic Starter
Avishay

Im so mad bro wrote:

Avishay's comment honestly just feels like someone who is salty for getting their maps rejected and is trying to blame the system instead of changing their maps. Sure, the system is not perfect, but, that is why its moderated by people who have experience in what they are doing. Also, the bias you speak of is not a bias but an element of trust and mapper's knowledge - Hollow Wings can get such original maps ranked because she has the knowledge to justify doing so (a knowledge she gained through experience)
Relevant username.

Eitherway, element of trust and mapper's knowledge? Sounds like complete nonsense, it becomes irrelevant when you invent new stuff. I am salty and my posts explains why, I still cannot accept the statement 'experience in what they are doing', like hell, I know I am not the best mapper in the community, but I am not inexperienced at all as well, I have put thought in almost everything I do and it is justified through play.

And the bias comes by the fact that other people are allowed to do so, while me or other people with the same issue are not.
captin1
arrogance is only going to make people not want to deal with you man, chill out
Topic Starter
Avishay

captin1 wrote:

arrogance is only going to make people not want to deal with you man, chill out
Along with the saltiness I did raise some points that are general, is that wrong?

But anyway, what is the solution to my case? Fixing the issues stated in the mods? Although imo they don't really matter since they don't affect the gameplay at all? Honest question.
captin1
word of advice from someone who has gone through map drama: stop posting.

take a day or two, recollect your thoughts and stop getting caught up in the moment. this doesn't need to get solved right this minute. be patient, take a step back, and look at your map again. you'll either find: a. some of the points raised are valid and can be worth taking into account or b. you'll be able to come up with better and more concrete reasons for doing things other than "this is my style" or "x mapper did it so why can't i"
Liiraye

Avishay wrote:

Because it doesn't really matter? I felt like using this pattern in this part just because it felt right to me, both of those patterns work for the song and there's no real reason to exclude the use of one of them.

Avishay wrote:

captin1 wrote:

arrogance is only going to make people not want to deal with you man, chill out

But anyway, what is the solution to my case? Fixing the issues stated in the mods? Although imo they don't really matter since they don't affect the gameplay at all? Honest question.
But it does matter and it does affect gameplay. If it didn't, I wouldn't have taken my precious neet time to try and explain this to you. You can't use a consistent pattern on 9/10 parts and then when the same part comes up again you decide to "feel" and leave it blank, making an anti jump. Does that make sense to you? Can you explain your pattern without saying you felt it was "ok"?
If both patterns work fine then why are you doing one pattern for all but one of those parts? Why are you being so stubborn about something so incredibly unnecessary?

The response you gave me + the fact that you don't even know or try to understand what other people find to be bad/sloppy about your map when they explain it only fortifies my statement. Your map just screams inexperienced and you need to get your head out of the gutter bro. Because even though I say I find it inexperienced, I do think you have some cool and somewhat original ideas going on as well, so don't get defensive when I try to help you please.


Again, I hate modding
Topic Starter
Avishay

Nube wrote:

But it does matter and it does affect gameplay. If it didn't, I wouldn't have taken my precious neet time to try and explain this to you. You can't use a consistent pattern on 9/10 parts and then when the same part comes up again you decide to "feel" and leave it blank, making an anti jump. Does that make sense to you? Can you explain your pattern without saying you felt it was "ok"?
If both patterns work fine then why are you doing one pattern for all but one of those parts? Why are you being so stubborn about something so incredibly unnecessary?

The response you gave me + the fact that you don't even know or try to understand what other people find to be bad/sloppy about your map when they explain it only fortifies my statement. Your map just screams inexperienced and you need to get your head out of the gutter bro. Because even though I say I find it inexperienced, I do think you have some cool and somewhat original ideas going on as well, so don't get defensive when I try to help you please.


Again, I hate modding
The stuff you are saying do make sense, it's like that because the pattern overall was different, a note used to exist at 03:05:218, but I removed it due to the DQ, regardless if I wanted to have it or not. But honestly, the patterns at 00:59:293 (1) - and 03:04:093 (1) - are completely different, is there a reason to use the same slider? The latter is more intense and has bigger spacing, how is it mandatory to do the same as before, how does it feel bad playing? I would understand if those patterns were identical excluding that slider..

I'll take captin's advice for now.
Feb

a loli wrote:

Feb wrote:

actually genryuu kaiko has premanent 1/4's but the sounds are imo not very audible.
No it does not.
not permanent yes - the slower parts aren't.
Smokeman

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
Man look...

You don't rly have to rank a map... noone is forcing you...

This is a more polite way to tell him to go fuck himself. No more of that please. He makes a point about double standards and favoritism, and that is something to be addressed, regardless of him wanting to rank a map or not.
No, This is a more polite way of telling him to take a min to chill. I tell him that because in the end of the day he wont gain anything from ranking his map but the feeling of self accomplishment (and internet fame for a day or two). Yes he recaps all of the ranking proccess we have so far and tries to blend in some perpective. I am not denying that. It's just that i was more concerned about the way he viewed criticism from other mappers than the whole ranking drama process every once in a while.

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
All the statements should be made according to logical conclusions from the orginal work, which means even tho there are countles interpretations there is just one (or rarely a few) which is (are) more "right" then all the others. Does this mean you are wrong? By all means NO... but you arent right either... noone can be. Infact you can only get close to the "truth" with your interpretation (or theory) until someone falsifies it. Depending on the extent you have to either modify it or simply dismiss it completely.

ok, so let me entangle that.
- When we interpret art, the interpretation should be based on the original and it should be linked to it through logic
- There are countless interpretations
- Some are more right than others
- You aren't wrong
- You aren't right
- Nobody can be right
- you are right until you are falsified
- the one who falsified you is more right than you, hence why you have to follow his lead and change your interpretation that is not right and not wrong, so you can make it more right, except nobody can be right in the first place, although the one who falsified you is more right than you. It should also be logical.

I don't even know what you were getting at with that, honestly. That whole paragraph is a contradictory mess.
damn it was too late for that shit yesterday... Hope i can rephrase it

- interpretation or Statemnts based on logical conlusions from the piece of art
- As many interpretations as there are ppl and time in the world BUT...
- when i talk about "more right" i meant more logical or more grounded in that regard
- being less grounded doesnt mean you aren't wrong
- but being more grounded makes the interpretation more "believable" (or acceptable)
- which means, if you look at an interpretation which is more believabe than one which takes 4 detours around the work of art to make a statement.
- That doesnt mean you can interpret what ever you feel like. If the logical conclusion is wrong, well this just leads to a wrong interpretation.
- OK now i fucked up: i tried to tie in the definition of the scientific method... (fml it was late) I wanted to get to the point where even a logic based interpretation can be wrong, but when that happens you dont simply dismiss it (again depends on the severity of the problem). problem is this doesnt apply well on mapping so lets just forget that.

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
IF your interpretation looks "flawed" or not "quite there yet" in the eyes of clearly more experienced ppl, then you should reconcider what you are doing here. NOONE wants to fuck your shit up. NOONE will gain anything from that. All these ppl modding and giving suggestions do it because they love doing this: mapping songs and helping others.

Now this is something I can get behind. Listen to experience, for it most likely knows better than you do.
The second thing you said is disagreeable again though. People gain something from fucking shit up, and if you observe them for a bit you see that very clearly. They have personal grudges, suck up to other people, or just enjoy their power. They defend their own opinions vigorously once they are out instead of backing down in an argument, because nothing is harder than admitting that you were wrong. That can lead to pretty nasty situations, where the one with less power has no other option left than following along. Generally, there can be plenty of reasons why people fuck shit up. Not to say that QAT's are essentially evil, but they aren't angels either. They are human, and humans tend to be unfair every once in a while. You got to look out for that, and not deny it by saying "but they don't have nothing to gain".
Why shouldnt you listen to experience... rly...
Ofc you shouldnt blindly follow your elders or smth just because they know more, but not listening to someone who clearly knows better than you is plain ignorance...

i still believe in society a little bit. We arent all assholes you know.

Railey2 wrote:

Smokeman wrote:
if you cant accept that then just dont rank it man.

One last time, please please stop with this sentiment. This is what a system looks like that can't accept criticism and change.
"oh you think theres something wrong with the system and you feel like it could be improved? Hah, fuck off then"
That is not what you want. Definitely not.
IMO the system isnt corrupt. I am also a strong believer of everyone speaking out his thoughts. I got surprised you read that sentiment out of the post tho (i was quite shoked dude).

to genralize: a ranked map is the same as any other map. A couple of ppl just took some time to look at it and gave it some rankings and tagged it as "ranked". So in the core a ranked map is the same as a graveyarded map. But To get this nice tag with the score boards you need to be ready for criticism from the community. If you think these ppl are assholes and only aim to harm you, then why the fuck would you want that useless tag. Why would you want to gift this shitty community your masterpiece. But if you think these ppl have the intention of helping you make your map better then accepting their opinions about your product shouldn't be a issue. The process rly isnt that difficult either. You post, they mod, you evaluate, BNs evaluate, and if all goes well.. voilà it is ranked and everyone is happy.
Spaghetti

Spaghetti wrote:

You're arguing over spilled milk.
Frostmourne
Hopefully this gets re-qualified soon xD finally found this song mapped!~
I so love this song and the map is very fun to play
at least it manages to eliminate boredom of the song itself :)
Good luck :oops:
Topic Starter
Avishay
Alright, clean head, let's do this.
Topic Starter
Avishay

ohad1881 wrote:

00:07:693 (1) - why here did you put a nc on the strong beat and 00:02:893 and 00:05:293 you didn't? Hm.. I'd say because the NCs are indicators for pattern changes.
00:35:893 (1) - i don't see a reason for this nc Alright.
00:40:843 (4) - you are leading to a strong vocal here so why stop the flow and stack? 3 is the strong beat, therefore the jump between 00:40:543 (2,3) - , however 4 is not as strong, and it feels like a leftover, a stack goes well because I am able to do an other jump with the vocals right after.
01:00:493 (3) - nc? 01:00:043 (1) - here remove The better choice indeed, rearranged some NCs here.
01:01:694 (5) - i feel like you should give more emphasis on this by a bit spacing it, it's to close and weird to play imo. There's no justification for emphasization here.
01:06:493 (1) - ^^ Sure.
01:09:343 (2) - ^^ I could but I feel like it's forcing it too much, I slowed down with the pascing from here 01:07:693 (1) - and then resumed it here 01:10:993 (1) - . I think leaving it as it is is the better choice.
01:19:543 (8,9,1) - you are leading to a big place with a lot of vocals here, i feel you should show it by spacing it much more. mb you can stack the end of 01:19:693 (1) - with 01:19:243 (6) . Actually this goes nicely for various other reasons as well, changed.
01:22:093 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1) - seems like here you ignored what is coming next, you are leading to something big so why not showing it, i really think you should space this part a bit like here 03:26:893 (5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - It could work, but how am I ignoring what's coming next? The pattern is pretty intense. The first pattern has more back and forth movements compared to the second one, and both has special looking structure.
01:49:693 (1) - way to close for this vocal imo. I agree, changed some other pattern so it became like that, fixed.
01:52:093 (4) - nc here and also space it. NC V, no spacing change.
01:54:118 (2,3) - i saw a lot of problems with this one, so i can suggest to make this slider 01:53:893 (1) end here 01:54:118 (and mb you can silence the end) Pattern changed.
02:06:493 (1,2,3,4) - you can space every note in gradation, the vocals are becoming stronger every note. If I wanted to do that I'd follow the drums, but I am following the ringing sounds which stay the same.
02:26:293 (4) - ctrl g? strong beat. Sure.
02:37:093 (3) - you can make it more symmetrical. Should be better now.
03:12:943 (4,5,6) - space it Why? I don't think it is justified.
04:05:293 (1) - you can improve it, use grid snap. Too lazy, symmetry is hard, it looks almost perfect.
04:16:093 (7) - nc? sure.
04:43:993 (1,2) - switch nc? v
04:59:793 (7) - move this slider here 04:59:743 ? Nope, the slider is snapped correctly.
i do feel you can be more consistent in this, and you should check your emphasis on some notes in and before the hype parts.
but as irre wrote, about the huge problem of the consistency of this map and the overmapping, i feel like he is wrong, it should be improved of course,but it's not a huge deal... vocals are ok with the emphasis of notes, i didn't see a lot of overmapping actually, and about the consistency, he might not made the same patterns, but he didn't skip vocals, he used spacing and emphasis properly, so i don't see a big problem here tbh.

so what can i say, my speeches will be useless, like every other speeches of an unknown person that no one gives a shit about what he will say, gl avishay.
Thanks, I'll just see what I can do it to improve it now.
Topic Starter
Avishay
ok how to get people to comment here?
P o M u T a
m4m

I don't know how to mod this. but, I testplayed and I hope more nice play.


  1. 00:40:693 (3,4) - make jump. more fun and fit song. My suggest (3) move (x:76 y:264), (4) move (x:164 y:384)
  2. 00:52:393 (2,3) - why 1/8? took drum echo? I want circle. But, you want keep 1/8, i recommend slider end reduce volume.. so, fit song.
  3. 01:17:293 (1) - slider head, Samplest:Normal and add finish. This sound too big Cymbals part. It's fit.

which is loved by some and hated by others. I know feel. but, i can't speak english almost. so, how to explanation.
but, Let's clear a hurdle.
good luck!
Topic Starter
Avishay
Applied all of those (lowered sliderend volumes on 2nd thingy).

Thanks.
Narcissu
花たん - ハジメテノオト

Edit:

you shouldn't give me KD ……

i can't pass the map , but i love the song :D
Topic Starter
Avishay

Narcissu wrote:

花たん - ハジメテノオト
I guess I'll add those to the tags since there's no Romaji (?) in the album.
Side
Hi for the M4M :v


SPOILER
[Beginning]

Intro feels a bit too crazy imo xD I kinda expected this to be a slower section kinda like 04:40:093 - and then it picks up in the verses. I feel in general that would give it a bit more sense of direction but up to you.

00:05:293 (3) - NC since it's kinda similar to 00:03:643 (1,2,1) -

00:09:493 (1) - Also remove NC. Sure the slider slows down and looks similar to the previous one but for that reason alone people would give you trouble tbh. Considering it's going the opposite direction as the previous slider and it's not SUPER slow to the point where it would cause confusion the NC doesn't do much other than remove the followpoint and then give you three 1 combo sections which is meh.

00:52:393 (2,3) - Feels overmapped to me. Pretty sure you would think so too since you did mute the slider ends :v Two normal 1/2 jumps would do just fine here.

00:54:943 (5) - Would be cool if you centered it on that diamond/triangle thing. Pretty sure you could make it work

01:01:093 (4) - Might be nice to make this a 3/4 slider and a note at 01:01:393 - so the next vocal thing is a clickable object instead of holding through it. Plus then you'd be able to NC that object so you can keep a 4/1 NC pattern going again.

01:03:493 (5,6) - This would be really cool if you ctrl+g'd each slider individually so that you have a circular flow going from slider to slider. Currently they flow a bit awkwardly. Also based on how 01:02:893 (3,4) - do that circular effect already it would be nice for the next two sliders to continue it. The four jump notes right after wouldn't be too hard to reposition without changing the rest of the notes.

01:50:893 (1,2) - Might sound better to follow the drums like you did at 01:48:493 (1,2,3) - but it might be a bit tricky so maybe not :v

03:11:893 (1) - Add clap to head. Sounds cool

03:14:593 (6) - Soft addition on the slider tail sounds cool too imo :v

03:15:493 (4) - I think this was supposed to be soft whistle/addition? Same with 03:16:993 (3) - and 03:20:293 (3) -

03:24:493 (1,2) - Could've totally been a 2/1 slider like 01:19:693 (1) -

03:31:243 (6) - I don't know if this is true or not but some people say this is unrankable to have active hitsounds in the sliderbody because it's unexpected feedback. To avoid any issues this would be better as a shorter slider into a triplet like the hitsounds indicate.

03:46:993 (4,5) - Kinda expected an antijump with this pause tbh. That's the pattern I saw for the most part before anyway.

04:56:893 (1,2) - Looks nicer if 2 was stacked under 1 slider end or if you did it with a bit of spacing like 04:58:093 (1,1) - maybe


Map has a lot of interesting patterns and the jumps are pretty fun. Idk though to me it feels like I'm playing 200 bpm yuikonnu jpop stuff instead of 100 bpm slow ballad music xD I kinda expected less movement and somewhat slower sliders but that's just me I guess. Probably doing that would be to make it way easier though and I don't think you want that :v

Anyway hope this helps. Good luck! :)
Topic Starter
Avishay

Side wrote:

Hi for the M4M :v


SPOILER
[Beginning]

Intro feels a bit too crazy imo xD I kinda expected this to be a slower section kinda like 04:40:093 - and then it picks up in the verses. I feel in general that would give it a bit more sense of direction but up to you. The ending is slightly energetic and the ending has none, well we could give million reasons for each side but I prefer having it this way.

00:05:293 (3) - NC since it's kinda similar to 00:03:643 (1,2,1) - Erm, fine :P It was suggested before and it doesn't really matter does it.

00:09:493 (1) - Also remove NC. Sure the slider slows down and looks similar to the previous one but for that reason alone people would give you trouble tbh. Considering it's going the opposite direction as the previous slider and it's not SUPER slow to the point where it would cause confusion the NC doesn't do much other than remove the followpoint and then give you three 1 combo sections which is meh. Alright.

00:52:393 (2,3) - Feels overmapped to me. Pretty sure you would think so too since you did mute the slider ends :v Two normal 1/2 jumps would do just fine here. I guess I will do something else since this was mentioned in the past as well.

00:54:943 (5) - Would be cool if you centered it on that diamond/triangle thing. Pretty sure you could make it work Cool.

01:01:093 (4) - Might be nice to make this a 3/4 slider and a note at 01:01:393 - so the next vocal thing is a clickable object instead of holding through it. Plus then you'd be able to NC that object so you can keep a 4/1 NC pattern going again. That's nice, I am not sure if I should mute the slider end since I don't use this pattern much in such rhythms.

01:03:493 (5,6) - This would be really cool if you ctrl+g'd each slider individually so that you have a circular flow going from slider to slider. Currently they flow a bit awkwardly. Also based on how 01:02:893 (3,4) - do that circular effect already it would be nice for the next two sliders to continue it. The four jump notes right after wouldn't be too hard to reposition without changing the rest of the notes. Redesigned pattern.

01:50:893 (1,2) - Might sound better to follow the drums like you did at 01:48:493 (1,2,3) - but it might be a bit tricky so maybe not :v I'll leave it as it is then :P

03:11:893 (1) - Add clap to head. Sounds cool Cool artificial rhythm.

03:14:593 (6) - Soft addition on the slider tail sounds cool too imo :v Sure.

03:15:493 (4) - I think this was supposed to be soft whistle/addition? Same with 03:16:993 (3) - and 03:20:293 (3) - To be fair I can't quite see much difference with my stereo but it makes more sense so alright.

03:24:493 (1,2) - Could've totally been a 2/1 slider like 01:19:693 (1) - Could've been, but I wanted something different :P

03:31:243 (6) - I don't know if this is true or not but some people say this is unrankable to have active hitsounds in the sliderbody because it's unexpected feedback. To avoid any issues this would be better as a shorter slider into a triplet like the hitsounds indicate. If that's really unrankable I'll change it, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it before and that's why I am using it.

03:46:993 (4,5) - Kinda expected an antijump with this pause tbh. That's the pattern I saw for the most part before anyway. You are right, antijump is expected here and I couldn't pinpoint what felt slightly wrong here for me, redesigned pattern to support antijump

04:56:893 (1,2) - Looks nicer if 2 was stacked under 1 slider end or if you did it with a bit of spacing like 04:58:093 (1,1) - maybe That's a nice idea.


Map has a lot of interesting patterns and the jumps are pretty fun. Idk though to me it feels like I'm playing 200 bpm yuikonnu jpop stuff instead of 100 bpm slow ballad music xD I kinda expected less movement and somewhat slower sliders but that's just me I guess. Probably doing that would be to make it way easier though and I don't think you want that :v Well yeah I never had the intention of slow map and song, I don't really like playing nor mapping those, energy and intensity that goes along with the song is fun, which is what I aim for.

Anyway hope this helps. Good luck! :)
Thanks! :)
Topic Starter
Avishay
Alright so, since the situation calmed down, I went over the original DQ post, went over the map again, NCs seem fine, there are no 1/8 which can be considered bad or unfitting, they are either completely fit with the vocals or rhythm, or creating a better rhythm such as 01:08:143 (2,3) - .

As this was the main issue, I will try pushing it forward again.
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