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posted
Overmapping =/= poor quality.

DQ'ing solely on the basis that something is "overmapped" just isn't a valid quality reason. "You just said it yourself, it is overmapped. Fix it up." That's just limiting new horizons. Plenty of maps have overmapped parts. You should really ask yourself why something is overmapped before telling someone to fix it. Otherwise mappers are just going to be angry because you single them out but allow many other maps with overmapped sections to pass.

Looking at the map some parts are indeed overmapped but I don't see these overmapped 1/8's being problematic in terms of playability, nor flow. Do they make patterns awkward, or visually unappealing? For me, the only one i didn't really like was 03:48:493 (1,2,3) -. The others were fine. Are they difficult to read? No. Does this rhythm choice harm the map? I would actually say this rhythm choice fits the map because it adds rhythm diversity to a map that is trying to be difficult, and contributes to an overall denser rhythm choice, which fits when the map is 5.76 stars. (It's also funny because removing the "overmapped 1/8s" does nothing to lower star rating anyways. The map doesn't become any less difficult, just less dense.). In conclusion, no. I would say the 1/8's are overmapped but do not contribute to a loss of quality in the map. Therefore, why fix something that isn't broken?

Also what is considered "random and without concept" for some, is intentionally designed for others. Not everyone uses visual spacing to define structure either :P.

Avishay- DQ's nowadays are to promote discussion of certain elements that a QAT finds to be of low quality, so if you can elaborate a bit more like, give more examples of concept ideas we can gain a better understanding. And well, since i ended up checking the map, you can always call me if you need help pushing this forward again. Good luck!
posted
Thanks monstrata.

First of all, I'd like to dispute the claim "random and without concept", I will do that by taking patterns from the start of the map and show you the reasoning behind their execution.

  1. 00:03:643 (1,2,1) - After the halt there's a small jump with the drum, the movement of the slider represents the music really well and then the strong beat is hitting in a really nice way.
  2. 00:06:193 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - First of all, it has nice looks, now if you listen closely (25% playback rate) you'll see that the pattern is affected completely by the music, it is based strongly on it.
  3. 00:08:143 (2,1,2,3) - I decided to use antijumps here because well, it compliments the song, there's a note at 00:08:493 (1/6 snap), mapping it was my first move but it was pretty awkward, there's a drum right after, so mapping them both is not ideal, I decided to map just the drum while creating the impresiion that the player presses on them both, or at least is close to.
  4. 00:08:893 (3,1) - Can you really call it random? My intention here seems pretty obvious with the execution.


I could go on and on, my mapping process is taking a lot of time because I am trying to figure out patterns to go along with the music, while aiming to avoid copy pasting whole patterns unless I see it goes well.

As for 03:48:493 (1,2,3) - after looking on it for a while yeah the execution looks poor, the small spacing with the big circle movement is killing it and feels awkward with the reversed slider movement, I fixed it by doing this: http://puu.sh/lnGI7/4f9b1714ea.jpg Which is nicer and works really well.

I updated the map with the change to this pattern and the NC from previously in this thread, going to contact the BNs to push it forward again.

okoratu abandoned me so i need your help xd
posted
btw just wonder about artist: YURiCa/HANATAN they are the same person iirc, probably ask some Japanese QATs opinion? tbh I feel just Hanatan or YURICa its better. Also Hanatan shouldn't be in CAPS, since is like that on CD just for design purpose.

We did have a similar discussion before with Melophobia, Kshr, Oracle and Gero about this:
1 - p/3407933
2 - p/3407904
posted

Natsu wrote:

btw just wonder about artist: YURiCa/HANATAN they are the same person iirc, probably ask some Japanese QATs opinion? tbh I feel just Hanatan or YURICa its better. Also Hanatan shouldn't be in CAPS, since is like that on CD just for design purpose.

We did have a similar discussion before with Melophobia, Kshr, Oracle and Gero about this:
1 - p/3407933
2 - p/3407904
Thanks for the links, I wasn't sure if I am allowed to do it, I honestly prefer just 'Hanatan' so I'll change it now.
posted

Natsu wrote:

btw just wonder about artist: YURiCa/HANATAN they are the same person iirc, probably ask some Japanese QATs opinion? tbh I feel just Hanatan or YURICa its better. Also Hanatan shouldn't be in CAPS, since is like that on CD just for design purpose.

We did have a similar discussion before with Melophobia, Kshr, Oracle and Gero about this:
1 - p/3407933
2 - p/3407904

neonat wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3948780
I believe this can be relevant for this album, and the other older albums like Flower Drops and Summer☆Syrup if you want, personally I would like YURiCa/Hanatan but I don't know about others, like what went on in my map.

because really that HANATAN part...

and the cordelia site is no longer around
I'll just reiterate this since there are still doubts around the name. But, if you can substantiate more than just the album cover then ok
posted
Alright so I've changed the artist and added YUriCa in the tags, hopefully it'll pass.
posted
Just my two cents.

Some of the overmaps would be much better off as 1/2 though, especially the ones in the choruses. Since the choruses already offer enough rhythm diversity from actual 1/4's, I think keeping rest of it as 1/2 would be much more beneficial and it'd just feel overall much better with the song. I'm talking about overmaps like 01:44:143 (2,3,1) - , 01:49:318 (4) - , 01:54:118 (2) - , 03:43:993 (2,3) - , 03:48:868 (2) - and so on... (01:43:243 (5,6,7) - if you're going to do this, you might as well could try silencing the slider ends, since they don't have any beats to support their ends)

Slowdowns such as 01:53:293 (1) - and 03:58:093 (1) - feel weird to play, because you're still in the intense chorus part, you want to move fast. I personally don't think a slowdowns fit in the first place, but it seems that you think they fit. That being the case, I'd recommend using something faster, like 0,9 slider velo? That wouldn't feel nearly as anti-climatic as these do currently.

Lastly, I think this suffers a lot for the very same reasons as your Rolling Star map, you might remember that, but maybe that's just me... :p Map tries to be so many different things, yet it ends up being a little random in general. 04:05:293 (1) - Also, if you're going for symmetry, you might as well do it properly because this looks really off, especially when you have 04:05:893 (3,4) - these which are perfectly symmetrical.

Anyhow, best of luck with your map!
posted
Okay. So, you got a map disqualified.

This map was disqualified was for consistency reasons and on top of that an overarching overmapping issue. You should now decide how you're going to respond to this. People do this in one of two ways, they either accept the dq and make changes no matter how drastic they are or just grave the map, or they can take your approach and become irrational and argue irrelevant points.

Don't try to justify your map's overmap on the basis of other questionable maps' ranked status. Irreversible is one person, there's between 6 and 9 standard qualifications a day, do you want him to check every single mapset himself and dq them? (Irre is like the only active QAT right now that's dqing - which is what this system is all about).

For me what's most wrong with this map is probably the overuse of 1/4 and the spacing accompanying it. Also the lack of consistency in patterns and spacing.

One example. 01:33:493 (1,2,3,4,5) - this is a frequently recurring theme within the kiai which SHOULD be emphasised. It is. But, it's not consistent by a long shot. 01:43:093 (3,4,5,6,7) - the hell? sliders? 01:52:693 (1,2,3,4) - Now we get a nearly full screen star jump. 02:02:443 (1,2,3,4) - Now we have a pretty tame square.

This is an example of how not to be consistent. 1/4 sliders play a lot differently to star patterns and star patterns play a lot differently to much smaller squares.

In regards to those 1/8 triples being slapped in for the sake of it. Sure, they play fine, are they part of the song's rhythm in either backbeat or vocals? NOPE. So, you remove them. They don't fit.


@Monstrata Seriously, stop trying to cockblock Irre's attempts at being a QAT. He's a fucking guy, the only guy on QAT doing what QAT were instructed to do. Disqualify maps which don't meet decent standards.

This map needs a lot of work doing to it, especially in the consistency department. It is probably the fact that the inconsistently exacerbates the overmapping issue, though I would address both.

I might seem a bit pissy in this post. Cos I am, this sort of nonsense in response to mods which are aimed at helping people is so damn off putting and makes me not want to sign in. IDK how Irre puts up with this sort of shit and still wants to be such an integral part of this community.
posted

Asphyxia wrote:

Just my two cents.

Some of the overmaps would be much better off as 1/2 though, especially the ones in the choruses. Since the choruses already offer enough rhythm diversity from actual 1/4's, I think keeping rest of it as 1/2 would be much more beneficial and it'd just feel overall much better with the song. I'm talking about overmaps like 01:44:143 (2,3,1) - , 01:49:318 (4) - , 01:54:118 (2) - , 03:43:993 (2,3) - , 03:48:868 (2) - and so on... (01:43:243 (5,6,7) - if you're going to do this, you might as well could try silencing the slider ends, since they don't have any beats to support their ends) I picked those notes to emphasize the vocals mostly, I could probably remove those, change the pattern to support the vocals in a different way (sliders, spacing, whatever). However I feel that those 1/4 (1/8) are fine as they are, and removing them will force me to change the struct of the patterns and it is probably not a good idea.

Slowdowns such as 01:53:293 (1) - and 03:58:093 (1) - feel weird to play, because you're still in the intense chorus part, you want to move fast. I personally don't think a slowdowns fit in the first place, but it seems that you think they fit. That being the case, I'd recommend using something faster, like 0,9 slider velo? That wouldn't feel nearly as anti-climatic as these do currently. That's the cool thing, you are moving with the intensity of the strong drums and then the long ring is coming, stopping the strong drums and the player continiues with the slider that follows the ring. I like the way the sliders go with the instrument so I am persistent on keeping it.

Lastly, I think this suffers a lot for the very same reasons as your Rolling Star map, you might remember that, but maybe that's just me... :p Map tries to be so many different things, yet it ends up being a little random in general. 04:05:293 (1) - Also, if you're going for symmetry, you might as well do it properly because this looks really off, especially when you have 04:05:893 (3,4) - these which are perfectly symmetrical. A while ago I took a look on Rolling Star, I realised how much better it could've been, but I was not experienced enough to see what stuff I could change, from poor asthetics to overall feel, I started remapping it but I lazied out in the end, I might get to it some time. I have paid a lot of attention to this map and it might be random in general, as long as it isn't wonky or completely erm, stupid, it's completely fine. Oh and for that slider, I don't know how no one noticed it by far, fixed.

Anyhow, best of luck with your map!
Thanks!
posted

Hula wrote:

Okay. So, you got a map disqualified.

This map was disqualified was for consistency reasons and on top of that an overarching overmapping issue. You should now decide how you're going to respond to this. People do this in one of two ways, they either accept the dq and make changes no matter how drastic they are or just grave the map, or they can take your approach and become irrational and argue irrelevant points.

Don't try to justify your map's overmap on the basis of other questionable maps' ranked status. Irreversible is one person, there's between 6 and 9 standard qualifications a day, do you want him to check every single mapset himself and dq them? (Irre is like the only active QAT right now that's dqing - which is what this system is all about).

For me what's most wrong with this map is probably the overuse of 1/4 and the spacing accompanying it. Also the lack of consistency in patterns and spacing.

One example. 01:33:493 (1,2,3,4,5) - this is a frequently recurring theme within the kiai which SHOULD be emphasised. It is. But, it's not consistent by a long shot. 01:43:093 (3,4,5,6,7) - the hell? sliders? 01:52:693 (1,2,3,4) - Now we get a nearly full screen star jump. 02:02:443 (1,2,3,4) - Now we have a pretty tame square.

This is an example of how not to be consistent. 1/4 sliders play a lot differently to star patterns and star patterns play a lot differently to much smaller squares.

In regards to those 1/8 triples being slapped in for the sake of it. Sure, they play fine, are they part of the song's rhythm in either backbeat or vocals? NOPE. So, you remove them. They don't fit.


@Monstrata Seriously, stop trying to cockblock Irre's attempts at being a QAT. He's a fucking guy, the only guy on QAT doing what QAT were instructed to do. Disqualify maps which don't meet decent standards.

This map needs a lot of work doing to it, especially in the consistency department. It is probably the fact that the inconsistently exacerbates the overmapping issue, though I would address both.

I might seem a bit pissy in this post. Cos I am, this sort of nonsense in response to mods which are aimed at helping people is so damn off putting and makes me not want to sign in. IDK how Irre puts up with this sort of shit and still wants to be such an integral part of this community.
I honestly appreciate help, but not in this way, you have completely ignored what I said previously:

Avishay wrote:

And? conept != consistency.

I am talking about concept between specific patterns, not the map overall.

As I said in the chat with Okoratu, if I find the consistency fitting to my likes in a certain part in the map / song, I'll use it.
posted
It's like people are forgetting the most important aspect of the game, enjoying it.
posted

monstrata wrote:

Overmapping =/= poor quality.

DQ'ing solely on the basis that something is "overmapped" just isn't a valid quality reason. "You just said it yourself, it is overmapped. Fix it up."
It very well is a reason, you should not forget this is a rhythm game. If there is nothing in the song, why would you place something? I do still believe that there is good and bad overmap. This is definitely an example of bad overmap. Good overmap would be emphasizing some downbeats with a triplet from red to white; why would you emphasize an offbeat (red tick) which is almost not existant? Or even invent a stream of 5 (as seen 04:26:893 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - ) where there is no clearly hearable 1/4?

monstrata wrote:

That's just limiting new horizons.
No, because this horizon was never meant to exist, you should follow the song and not invent a new one.

monstrata wrote:

Plenty of maps have overmapped parts. You should really ask yourself why something is overmapped before telling someone to fix it. Otherwise mappers are just going to be angry because you single them out but allow many other maps with overmapped sections to pass.
You need to distinguish. I can't completely disagree, however - I am pretty sure there is bad overmap going around too. It's up to the BNs to point this stuff out and make people aware of it.

monstrata wrote:

Looking at the map some parts are indeed overmapped but I don't see these overmapped 1/8's being problematic in terms of playability, nor flow.
This does not matter (yet). Because first of all, the rhythm has to be correct. Then playability and flow has their turns.

monstrata wrote:

Do they make patterns awkward, or visually unappealing? For me, the only one i didn't really like was 03:48:493 (1,2,3) -. The others were fine. Are they difficult to read? No. Does this rhythm choice harm the map? I would actually say this rhythm choice fits the map because it adds rhythm diversity to a map that is trying to be difficult, and contributes to an overall denser rhythm choice, which fits when the map is 5.76 stars. (It's also funny because removing the "overmapped 1/8s" does nothing to lower star rating anyways. The map doesn't become any less difficult, just less dense.). In conclusion, no. I would say the 1/8's are overmapped but do not contribute to a loss of quality in the map. Therefore, why fix something that isn't broken?
It's not about the star rating, again. It's about the fact, that there is simply no 1/8 hearable at most spots.

Avishay wrote:

It's like people are forgetting the most important aspect of the game, enjoying it.
And it's like you forget that this is a rhythm game, and that there is something called rules. Yeah, the ranking criteria is pretty outdated. But it should even be seeable for you, that you should follow the song and not invent a new one.

This map won't get anywhere in its current state, if you think that this is acceptable then approach other QATs, but I won't let this go through in any case.
posted

Irreversible wrote:

And it's like you forget that this is a rhythm game, and that there is something called rules. Yeah, the ranking criteria is pretty outdated. But it should even be seeable for you, that you should follow the song and not invent a new one.
You are either completely blind or have something against me and this map.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/433005 - non-existent 1/4s throughout the whole map
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/520208 - a lot of extreme artificial rhythm
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/343741 - ^ mostly through Tengaku ^

I could give you a lot more but those are the one that came out to my mind right now, I've resolved to pointing you to other maps (which are not from 45438950 years ago) because you are completely blind to the point I'm raising here.

Accept the fact that the mapping-meta has evolved, this is a rhythm game indeed, and mappers have the power to enhance the experience the player has with the music, using hitsounds and notes. Don't give me the bad overmap bullshit, how is spamming the whole map with spaced 1/4 to increase difficulty is fine yet some 1/4 (1/8) to enhance the vocals notes are not? I might not enjoy some of those artifical rhythms, but some other people might, just like I might not enjoy a map even if it follows the song's rhythm perfectly. It's completely retarded.
posted
stop using past ranked maps to justify your mistakes
posted

handsome wrote:

stop using past ranked maps to justify your mistakes
My mistakes? If they were mistakes I would fix them already.

I gave my personal justifications, but since I have to I am using the ranked maps as examples because people are oblivious to those maps while they are insisting about the "problems" I have in mine.
posted
Lmao this blew up. Literally wrote my post in 5 minutes after seeing Avishay post something about it on a reddit comment.

Just as QAT's keep BN's and mappers accountable for their maps, BN's and mappers should be able to hold QAT's accountable for their reasons for disqualification. QAT's are no longer anonymous so mappers/bn's/qat's can discuss issues before proceeding with requalification. I was addressing the overmapping issue brought up in the disqualification post. This has nothing to do with the QAT involved... I would have said the same (and I have) if anyone else had made a subjective DQ and attached an inadequate explanation. Please don't take it personally :P I made sure not to refer to or quote any names in particular because I'm concerned with the DQ, not the DQ'er.

@Avishay: I see the intention behind your 1/8's but just ask yourself whether those are necessary to emphasizing vocals/strong drums, because I feel that there are alternatives if you are willing to do a bit of restructuring. You're very critical of your note-placement even though others might not see them or understand your perspective, so you should know of other ways you can create emphasis without using a technique like overmapping that is going to start riots lol.

Let's see how this goes ;o.
posted
Congratulations, you win.

Removed all of the 1/8 notes that have no sign of appereance in the song, so yeah there are places which the 1/8 are not easily audible but they exist indeed, e.g: 01:06:943 (3,4,1) - 01:24:943 (1,2,3) - or whatever.
posted
just dropping by and giving my 2 cents

didnt look at the map, but im pretty sure that as long as you silence the slider ends (or not) and that it fits with the song (such as slightly held out longer beats, etc) it should be fine.

a lot of maps that contain extended 3/4 sliders (which acts as a hold note for held vocals, despite not having an actual beat on the 3/4) are currently ranked and can still be ranked iirc
posted

byfar wrote:

just dropping by and giving my 2 cents

didnt look at the map, but im pretty sure that as long as you silence the slider ends (or not) and that it fits with the song (such as slightly held out longer beats, etc) it should be fine.

a lot of maps that contain extended 3/4 sliders (which acts as a hold note for held vocals, despite not having an actual beat on the 3/4) are currently ranked and can still be ranked iirc
Yeah I am aware of it, but mostly the riot discussion here was due to the triplets I used to emphasize vocals.

Eitherway, waiting for Irre's response now I guess?
posted
Silenced ends are indeed a good technique to fully emphasize vocals.

01:53:893 (1,2,3,4) - Still overmapped.
01:51:793 (3,4,5) - Could benefit of being silenced, too.
02:43:693 (5,1) - Why is it NC'd like this? Shouldn't it be on the downbeat?

My opinion is simply that you should get more mods
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