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Omoi - Snow Drive

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Battle
eks pee
Topic Starter
Saoji
Thanks !!
sahuang
Looked through threads and I can see how much difficulty did you come through......
Hope it goes well this time!
_Hou
Finally ! ! !
wajinshu
Yay!!!
Shiirn
All these made-up triplets that don't even follow any sort of musical patterning smh. If you want to overmap triplets, you can do it in a way that follows the musical pattern of the song itself, (And that's a bit more complex than "Put a triplet before every big white tick during the chorus). The thing is, parts of this song are rhythmically very simple and you did it right a good chunk of the time, but those just make the random triplets even more confusing. But then you just seem to forget you did it!

Compare 00:54:645 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3) - with 00:58:930 (1,2,3,4) - . They're actually duplicate phrases in the song but they're mapped completely differently. If you want to have additional noises, they have to be consistent so that they are aligned with the music. Let me say that in the first phrase of this section, e.g, 00:54:644 - to 00:58:930 - , you did a good job.

Bonsai tried to go over this with you but you were having none of it, but I'm trying to be polite here. I just find it really weird that you want to have a rhythmically more interesting map by adding triplets and 3/4 sliders and other changes from boring 1/2 spam but then you do that very same boring 1/2 spam for the other half of the map. It's just not following its own rules.


If it's too hard or complex to do it right, you probably shouldn't do it for ranking. Simply following the music and scrapping the idea of additional triplets would (have) increase(d) the quality of the 6* diff at least threefold. Right now, this map is in a very thin area between "Creatively using additional notes to impart rhythm to an otherwise surprisingly beat-empty song" and "Filling empty space with random notes". You want to be in the first category. 02:46:877 (3,4,5,6) - Is in the second.


01:46:609 (3,3,3) - These are still here? Why? You got a better mp3 and everything so you can actually tell that the synth has two distinct beats but you have single 1/8 buzz sliders anyway?

01:49:287 (1,2,3,4) - This especially becomes a problem with these. They're all theoretically following the same instrument, but the first note is just a plain note while the rest are half-length buzzes. (also do mine ears deceive me or is the drum roll for 2 a 1/6 quad? You don't necessarily need to map it, i'm just again shocked that an mp3 upgrade can still be so badly warped)).

02:05:694 (2,3,4,1) - still makes no sense

02:08:707 - 02:08:974 - 02:10:716 - etc Why not map these beats? I just want to understand what choices you're making as to which instruments you're following. I respect your vision of the song, but maps should generally be following the music first, and your vision second. (I'm sure I'll get a couple PMs or posts crying "hypocrite" with regards to routing or felys, but let me remind those buggers that those maps had objects on beats. This map has objects where there are no beats and beats where there are no objects.)


And a really picky one among the rest, 02:16:341 (3,5) - blanket

02:46:877 (3,4,5,6) - Expanding on it being mentioned before, this is weird because the use of 1/1 sliders that skip drums seems to imply that you want this section to be less dense than the rest, which makes sense because it's right after the kiai. I can buy that. I can dig that. It's a good mapping technique. But then you have random 5-note rolls that lie on beats that don't exist.


03:10:716 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2) - I won't even get started on how pretty much half of these beats don't exist, but I will point out that in a few places, such as 03:17:814 - , you have a overlying drum rhythm that is completely ignored. Streams are closely tied together with the drum beat, and not following it is a recipe for disaster. It makes the map really awkward and forces the player to play the map rather than follow the music.



I don't even know if this is a dq mod, there's a lot of words though. What it boils down to is that this mapper seems to be mapping an entirely different song to what is here, only vaguely similar to it, and the player is basically forced to play THAT song, rather than Omoi - Snow Drive. I don't like that, and I personally think that is unrankable, but like i mentioned before, I Am Not A BN/QAT, so I can't force anything, only use words.
Ideal
Extra diff: 00:02:680 - just curious why there aren't any circles here and on the next white beat

edit: disregard this
sahuang
please Shiirn dont...
Monstrata
Compare 00:54:645 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3) - with 00:58:930 (1,2,3,4) - . They're actually duplicate phrases in the song but they're mapped completely differently. If you want to have additional noises, they have to be consistent so that they are aligned with the music. Let me say that in the first phrase of this section, e.g, 00:54:644 - to 00:58:930 - , you did a good job. I don't think they're duplicate phrases in the song. There's enough of a change in vocal rhythm that I would be fine with the sections being different in rhythm. 00:55:582 (7) - I think removing this and putting a 1/1 gap would work better with the next measure though.

01:46:609 (3,3,3) - These are still here? Why? You got a better mp3 and everything so you can actually tell that the synth has two distinct beats but you have single 1/8 buzz sliders anyway? These fit pretty well imo... The buzzes make sense with the music imo.

02:05:694 (2,3,4,1) - still makes no sense Kinda agree here. But I think the 1/1 gap is also annoying right after a slider-end stream. At least make it a 1/2 slider instead?

02:08:707 - 02:08:974 - 02:10:716 - etc Why not map these beats? I just want to understand what choices you're making as to which instruments you're following. I respect your vision of the song, but maps should generally be following the music first, and your vision second. I think this is up to the mapper though. Generally, with "why are you following this/not this" it's mainly applied to objects on the screen, and rhythm choices. This is a break though... I'll admit the choice is weird, and ending on 02:11:385 - on a weak drum beat is odd too, but i think break choice exists outside the "vocal/instrument" discussion, are just places where the mapper feels a break would work. (I mean, for every break you place, where there are still instruments playing, you wouldn't ask why someone didn't map that section even tho they followed instruments elsewhere.)

[]

My thoughts anyways. Since this is supposed to be a discussion, not strictly a "dq mod".
Shiirn
Yeah, I'm all for allowing some creative liberty as to which notes a mapper chooses to display. I'm just not able to figure out what kind of theme he's trying to make. It's not coherent. For what it's worth, this map isn't exactly unrankable, I just think it's trying to do something special and failing at it due to the mapper having a difficult time pulling off the tricks he's trying to make.

Hence why I haven't reported it. I'm fairly neutral here, but I want a polite discussion on the pros and cons of inconsistent mapper vision. Routing had that problem, but had a different kind of vision going on. It was taking liberties with spacing and click patterning, rather than deciding which notes to map and which not to.
Topic Starter
Saoji
About the triplets not following anything, I suppose you’re talking about those 00:12:725 (6,7,1,2,3,4,5) -? (as Bonsai pointed them out). Honestly I don’t know what you don’t get in that kind of pattern. For the first one, I’m emphasizing that first big white tick as you said, and then the second one 00:13:261 (3,4,5) –is here because this is exactly the same sound than that first one. Hence I’m putting another triple to show it. Obviously, I won’t do it the whole map constantly because it would be a full triple map, and it probably wouldn’t fit anymore as it would be overdone. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to spice up the map a little bit like that. It does fit and I think it makes that music repetition fun to play. (Got laughed at by Bonsai with this explanation, but I still maintain my position).

About 00:58:930 (1,2,3,4) –I wouldn’t say the music is a repetition of 00:54:645 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3) -. The intonation is different and the music itself feels less sharpened. Also, even though I could put the same rhythm I don’t think it’s a bad thing to offer some variations to the player. The map, despite being 100% consistent, is structured. And if I changed the rhythm here, it’s most likely because there’s a transition there 00:57:858 (1) -.

Besides, there is no strict rule for a mapper to use a consistent rhythm from the beginning to the end of a song.

About 01:46:609 (3,3,3) -, yes it’s still there and will always be. I’m not following the beats. It makes sense with the music and fits well. Also, I find pretty funny to see that Omoi accentuated it even more in the last version of the song. It makes me even more confident about some of my rhythm choices (and no, I didn’t listen the final version first lol).

For 01:49:287 (1) –there’s actually a cymbal on this one that allows me to stick with a single circle as I usually did on this section. A slider would also be unreadable by the way.

02:05:694 (2,3,4,1) –As Monstrata said (thanks for your intervention btw), an empty gap would be quite annoying after the intensity of that part. And would feel… well… quite empty. Also, take it the way you want but while people are busy complaining on how that music version is noisy, I personally take advantage of it. (Same applies for 03:10:716 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2) – where the music kinda goes in multiple directions at once).

02:46:877 (3,4,5,6) – is actually more tricky, and could indeed call for a discussion as it is already more blatant. About this overmap, the principle is the same though. I’m keeping a fast pace on a speed part (full of 1/1, yes). I do agree that, despite the fact it doesn’t follow my own logic, just a single circle wouldn’t sound bad. On the other hand I don’t think that my own version sounds bad neither. Yes it’s overmapped, but with those drums/whistles hitsounds it sounds pretty neat to me, also on a song like this, where drum rolls are hidden a bit everywhere, it doesn’t sound out of context neither and it plays just fine as it’s not really hard to get the purpose of it. I mean… ya, I like the way it sounds and I’m actually pretty glad I’ve found it lol. It’s a filler that, for once, fits well (... to me. But if you look at all the mods, nobody but you and Bonsai really mentionned it).

02:08:707 – etc. If I made a break here it’s just because the melody totally drops at this point. Yes there’s still some beats but it feels quite empty and actually a bit awkward to play because of the gap between 02:08:974 –and 02:10:716 - .
Once more, the reason I highlight some parts by overmapping or something, it’s most likely because even If I map on beats, I don’t map the beats. And I’ve just realized that this break is a proof of it by itself. I could have mapped them because there’s nothing else, and I wanted to do it at the really beginning but then, I didn’t like the render because of the emptiness of that part.

I didn’t get your point on 03:17:814 (3) –sorry. And I’m not really sure to get what’s not fitting.

Shiirn wrote:

If it's too hard or complex to do it right, you probably shouldn't do it for ranking.
Honestly, I just mapped it as I always do. Actually, even more cautiously than I usually do as I particularly care of my Omoi maps. And if I ended up working myself to death to make a full spread designed to contain a 6 stars diff it’s most likely because I was more than satisfied about this map. Not that it is perfect, far from it. But you know… I just like what I’ve made, and actually quite a lot of people encouraged me to rank this map, and not another one (like maybe a one that would fit the song better from your point of view). So it wasn’t like too hard or too complex to me to map. However, I would lie if I wouldn’t say that your points don’t make it complicated, although I know why I mapped it this way. I suppose it’s just hard to explain it with words sometimes. I get you want me to improve that map, but I don't want to change stuff that I judge fundamental on this map. Like reworking a whole section was no go from the start, and it's just out of question on an ending project. But in any case, I’ll keep your advice, I will, for sure, think twice before trying to rank anything else. If I actually retry to do something like that. lol

Also, just for the record, you had like 5 months (it stayed bubbled for a month) to point this out. Why would you wait last time minute (and also the home stretch for that matter)? :c
Weber

Yales wrote:

Also, just for the record, you had like 5 months (it stayed bubbled for a month) to point this out. Why would you wait last time minute (and also the home stretch for that matter)? :c
why the fuck do people keep saying this

the "home stretch" is EXACTLY when maps are supposed to come under the most scrutiny and attention from modders

its not like "haha yes im going to wait until the 6th day of qualification and post a huge mod calling his map shit xdddddd", because realistically no one is like that (i hope)
Topic Starter
Saoji

Tatsuyu wrote:

Yales wrote:

Also, just for the record, you had like 5 months (it stayed bubbled for a month) to point this out. Why would you wait last time minute (and also the home stretch for that matter)? :c
why the fuck do people keep saying this

the "home stretch" is EXACTLY when maps are supposed to come under the most scrutiny and attention from modders

its not like "haha yes im going to wait until the 6th day of qualification and post a huge mod calling his map shit xdddddd", because realistically no one is like that (i hope)
It was just a simple question. That still sounds pretty legit to me by the way because Shiirn knew the map as it got unqualified the second time pretty much by him.

Anyways, this was just a really, really small detail in my answer. And it's nothing to make a huge deal of.
Shiirn
I mentioned the triples and the incoherent theme before, and they weren't dealt with, so I'm mentioning them again.

I repeat: I'm not actively trying to DQ this map. I have not asked any QAT to DQ this map, only to promote discussion - you should consider yourself lucky such a discussion is taking place during qualification, seeing as the normal standard is "DQ first then discuss" which is bullshit in my opinion.
Monstrata
A discussion is exactly that: just a discussion. If you're going into one with the intention of forcing a change, then you're probably going about this wrong. I think it's fine to mention these triplets, and what you believe to be incoherent themes, but don't go into a discussion expecting a change xD.

Good luck in qualified Yales. This is indeed the home stretch where everyone will be scrutinizing your map before it becomes forever immortalized.
Chewin
omoi vocal version is horrible, but this map is fking 10/10

Finally Yales, you deserved it <33333
Battle
could always add that araki version in the description tho
C00L
congratz!!!!!!!!!!!

at last :D
Shad0w1and
Download with 720P Video. Source video is proceed and fixed by me.
http://puu.sh/qbTOA/2a737251ca.osz
Video is 57MB
You might want add it to description if you like it :/
Topic Starter
Saoji

Shad0w1and wrote:

Download with 720P Video. Source video is proceed and fixed by me.
http://puu.sh/qbTOA/2a737251ca.osz
Video is 57MB
You might want add it to description if you like it :/
Added, thanks for your work man, I really appreciate.
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