lol

Shizuku- wrote:

Share your ideas! instead of attacking people.

My idea - stop putting crap in newbies heads, let them play and improve. Anyways, it comes from someone who has barely 5k playcount... what do you actually know about improving ;x

It passes the time.

-Wowbagger

Shizuku- wrote:

Here is the thing, playing more wouldn't help actually on any aspect. Why, because you are not actually improving when you play more.

You see; THIS is exactly why this subforum is not useless. THIS is exactly why we need it. Because there are STILL people that believes this crap. And for as long as people will believe that, this subforum will be useful.

To get back on topic (I feel like the point of this post got lost somewhere), I lurked around this subforum for some weeks now and I feel like what we actually need is not to delete G&R (sometimes some cool points are made in the discussions) but to have some kind of moderation in it.

To further explain myself, if there were like 1 or 2 moderators that give a shot to the discussions and close the ones with an answer in the posts on top, and/or delete answers that don't provide any usefull point to the topic (or actually BAN some toxic people) this would get to be a pretty good place imo

It's not useless. If I could give advice to myself when I started playing I would probably be 3 digits by now.

B1rd wrote:

It's not useless. If I could give advice to myself when I started playing I would probably be 3 digits by now.

Pray tell what advice that would be? I want to git git.

Eh without G&R the shitpost would just flow on other subforums, do you really want that ?

Ziassan wrote:

Eh without G&R the shitpost would just flow on other subforums, do you really want that ?

that's what off-topic is for

90% of the threads posted here are trash or redundant.

I agree on redundant but only a very small margin is trash.

90% of the time, the answer to the above threads is "to get better at X, play more X".

Isn't it good when the same question gets the same answer from different people at different times?
Aside from that you can't only blame the people who give the answer as most people who make new threads don't make the impression as if they'd have thought even a tiny bit about their problem. It should be common sense that you can get better at anything if you practice it - preferably in a smart and controlled way. ("gotta go slow" is very popular for that exact reason) In the end every way leads to Rome though.

A very significant number of threads are quickly taken over by shitposts.

You're exaggerating. The topic might get derailed but the "shitposters" will oftentimes put on a serious discussion with the topic discussed having a comprehensable relation to the original one.

Most "gameplay discussion" (in terms of high quality scores) is done on the osu! subreddit, and not here.

I dislike reddit because it isn't a forum. I like forums due to the linearity in threads. Reddit just screws over with that along with the snowballeffect of upvotes and rhetorical manipulation of the reader. That's why I'm not using it for any discussion. It's a bad medium for this kind of thing.

Almost every noob question answer / useful piece of information can already be found in the stickies (which often get overlooked), and this information could possibly be better placed inside the wiki.

No and yes. The stickies give you a good start but people will find new questions based on what they read and the answers can't be found in the stickies.
If I had motivation or if I'd think that most people would read stickies I could write a guide of several pages right now with the knowledge I gained from reading lots of threads in G&R.

On a sidenote: I think you're biased in your observation of this forum cause the "shitposters" don't agree with a couple of your opinions and made fun of you regarding your CoD-skills. From personal experience I would evaluate most of the things you wrote in your OP as exaggeration or plain wrong.

In my opinion there has to be a place where people can compare notes about their playstyles and how to get better therefore removing G&R makes no sense at all. If you're talking about "restructuring" you have to make a sensible proposition as you're the one who thinks that this subforum sucks, not me.

I believe the people who post here should play more instead of asking advice on how to click circles

The problem is that people ask the same 2-3 questions all day everyday, questions which are usually both obvious and/or have been addressed rigorously in the stickies. These people evidently don't want to put in any effort to learn the things they want to know when it is already staring them in the face, they merely wish to be spoonfed the entire process like the spoiled children they are.

Whole internet is pointless but its still there.
Then why should one insignificant subforum get removed?

I agree with Bauxe,remove G&R

Remove cancerfest

This forum is not pointless. Best place to farm postcount.

pandaBee wrote:

This forum is not pointless. Best place to farm postcount.

This.

On a more serious note, G&R is not useless. While many posts are reposts they are still useful. If you need information then you ask a question. It's been pointed out that a lot of this information is in stickies, but no one actually reads stickies on forums, or at least I never have and I doubt many casual players do either. If a way to present tis information in a more complete obvious manner (more obvious then the stickies) was created then G&R could be removed. Until then removing G&R would probably have a negative effect on new players. Note:Moving the sticky information to the wiki probably wouldn't work, as I pointed out earlier, casual players don't look very hard for what they want, they'd rather just ask the question. If it was moved to the wiki it would need to be glaringly obvious to the point where it is obnoxious.

While G&R may be the ultimate land of shiposting, it isn't completly worthless.

Edit: This topic just proved my point. t/334890

pandaBee wrote:

This forum is not pointless. Best place to farm postcount.

+1

pandaBee wrote:

This forum is not pointless. Best place to farm postcount.

Where have I been getting my post count the last 2 months?

otoed1 wrote:

This topic just proved my point. http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/334890

It also shows decently how the so-called shitposters do a decent job of delivering the asked information without a fuss as the OP in that thread did elaborate the problem well.
There's a reason why the shitposters in this subforum tend to be nice people - they came here to help out other people or searching for help themselves.
A correlation between the quality of the question and the quality of the answer is very common anyway.

Philosofikal wrote:

1. 90% of the threads posted here are trash or redundant.
2. 90% of the time, the answer to the above threads is "to get better at X, play more X".
3. Almost every noob question answer / useful piece of information can already be found in the stickies (which often get overlooked), and this information could possibly be better placed inside the wiki.

A lot of the "I need help" threads are posted by relatively new users. Most of them don't realize stickies or search functions exist. There are also lazy people, or people who want peer critque or have specific questions.

The problem is, skilled players have already given insightful answers already to most prevailing questions, and there were so many different opinions and perspectives on the game that it is difficult to compile them into one agreeable comprehensive wiki. Also, most of these players either eventually just stop answering questions anymore, or get frustrated and tell new players to just "play more." 2 years ago, even the "play more" came with helpful links to relevant threads and stickies to help the new player. These days, the active posters now just use "play more" like a meme, shitpost, or start flame wars in threads.

I still try to give insightful answers as best as I can, even if I have to be a broken record because this subforum was originally a place to help new players learn more about the intricacies of the game. It's sad but the subforum isn't the one that's become pointless, it's the change in active posters who aren't really that thoughtful towards the new players.

otoed1 wrote:

no one actually reads stickies on forums, or at least I never have

Then you're the problem. Its not the stickies problem for "not being obvious enough" (What you you even want, more obvious? Want a popup telling you this stuff in there whenever you go on the forums?) but the problem is with players like you who are too stupid or lazy to apply basic logic or look for information and instead expect to be spoonfed. And no, the wiki isnt obscure either or anything, a wiki is about as accessible as information can possibly be, you lazy fucks just need to read. Or do you want the text read loud for you so you only have to listen like the lazy fuck you are? Well, good for you, theres programms that can tell you what is written on your screen... oh wait getting these involves googling, which you fuckers are too lazy for. Too bad, maybe you should stop being this much of a lazy fucker instead? I think that'd be even easier actually.

I hate you lazy crybabies, waaah waaah i cant find informations, please help me.
Atleast attempt to help yourself first before asking the next most redunant question ever. Only this way the forum could get rid of all these redunant reposts. Again, i tell you, YOU and people like you are the problem, not the stickies or the wiki or anything else you may come up with.

Granger wrote:

otoed1 wrote:

no one actually reads stickies on forums, or at least I never have

Then you're the problem. Its not the stickies problem for "not being obvious enough" (What you you even want, more obvious? Want a popup telling you this stuff in there whenever you go on the forums?) but the problem is with players like you who are too stupid or lazy to apply basic logic or look for information and instead expect to be spoonfed. And no, the wiki isnt obscure either or anything, a wiki is about as accessible as information can possibly be, you lazy fucks just need to read. Or do you want the text read loud for you so you only have to listen like the lazy fuck you are? Well, good for you, theres programms that can tell you what is written on your screen... oh wait getting these involves googling, which you fuckers are too lazy for. Too bad, maybe you should stop being this much of a lazy fucker instead? I think that'd be even easier actually.

I hate you lazy crybabies, waaah waaah i cant find informations, please help me.
Atleast attempt to help yourself first before asking the next most redunant question ever. Only this way the forum could get rid of all these redunant reposts. Again, i tell you, YOU and people like you are the problem, not the stickies or the wiki or anything else you may come up with.

this is the angriest i've seen somebody get over this

Astrofiziks wrote:

this is the angriest i've seen somebody get over this

Sad thing is, im not even angry, just disappointed in people in general.
Like, seriously, must that be?

Well, this thread blew up while I was sleeping and with surprisingly intelligent conversation.

Amtroad wrote:

To get back on topic (I feel like the point of this post got lost somewhere), I lurked around this subforum for some weeks now and I feel like what we actually need is not to delete G&R (sometimes some cool points are made in the discussions) but to have some kind of moderation in it.

To further explain myself, if there were like 1 or 2 moderators that give a shot to the discussions and close the ones with an answer in the posts on top, and/or delete answers that don't provide any useful point to the topic (or actually BAN some toxic people) this would get to be a pretty good place imo

This is definitely true. According to the front page, G&R has the most replies of any subforum, yet the moderation around here is practically nonexistent (and drum drum is most of it). osu! is a rapidly growing community (and one with global reach); we need more moderation to keep things under control. I also think the moderators are too lenient with offenders.

Ziassan wrote:

Eh without G&R the shitpost would just flow on other subforums, do you really want that ?

This is a terrible argument. If shitposting is so badly needed that's what Off-Topic (or some kind of Wasteland) is for.

Isn't it good when the same question gets the same answer from different people at different times?

No, it's bad that people are asking the same question at all, because the question has been played out.

Aside from that you can't only blame the people who give the answer as most people who make new threads don't make the impression as if they'd have thought even a tiny bit about their problem.

And we need to find a practical way to manage the people who have no investment or awareness in the community, so that they get better answers and stop polluting the board with tired questions.

The topic might get derailed but the "shitposters" will oftentimes put on a serious discussion with the topic discussed having a comprehensable relation to the original one.

That still isn't a good thing since it doesn't help OP.

I dislike reddit because it isn't a forum. I like forums due to the linearity in threads. Reddit just screws over with that along with the snowballeffect of upvotes and rhetorical manipulation of the reader. That's why I'm not using it for any discussion. It's a bad medium for this kind of thing.

I agree with this. I don't even see why we have a subreddit since we already have a fully comprehensive forum. However, this is the way things work for now and since the subreddit has the blessing of peppy, I don't see this changing.

No and yes. The stickies give you a good start but people will find new questions based on what they read and the answers can't be found in the stickies. If I had motivation or if I'd think that most people would read stickies I could write a guide of several pages right now with the knowledge I gained from reading lots of threads in G&R.

But there's the problem I'm getting at - people keep asking the same questions because the aren't reading the stickies.

On a sidenote: I think you're biased in your observation of this forum cause the "shitposters" don't agree with a couple of your opinions and made fun of you regarding your CoD-skills. From personal experience I would evaluate most of the things you wrote in your OP as exaggeration or plain wrong.

On a side note, have you seen my avatar?

Once you’ve accepted your flaws, no one can use them against you.

HK_ wrote:

Whole internet is pointless but its still there.
Then why should one insignificant subforum get removed?

I'm12andthisisdeep.jpg

otoed1 wrote:

If you need information then you ask a question. It's been pointed out that a lot of this information is in stickies, but no one actually reads stickies on forums, or at least I never have and I doubt many casual players do either. If a way to present tis information in a more complete obvious manner (more obvious then the stickies) was created then G&R could be removed. Until then removing G&R would probably have a negative effect on new players. Note:Moving the sticky information to the wiki probably wouldn't work, as I pointed out earlier, casual players don't look very hard for what they want, they'd rather just ask the question. If it was moved to the wiki it would need to be glaringly obvious to the point where it is obnoxious.

Why isn't the information glaringly obvious to find? Why aren't people able to find the answers to the simplest questions immediately?

Granger wrote:

Astrofiziks wrote:

this is the angriest i've seen somebody get over this

Sad thing is, im not even angry, just disappointed in people in general.
Like, seriously, must that be?

you certainly came across as angry.

most of the people who just want the information spoon fed to them are noobs or casual players anyway
they are unstoppable

Astrofiziks wrote:

you certainly came across as angry.

most of the people who just want the information spoon fed to them are noobs or casual players anyway
they are unstoppable

Must be the swear words i guess, but some people just need to be talked to strongly. :/ Not that i expect people like those to read my post, "Omg, thats way too long to read, help me instead".

Granger wrote:

otoed1 wrote:

no one actually reads stickies on forums, or at least I never have

Then you're the problem. etc...

What's the point of standing strong against an unstoppable force? How can you expect people with no investment or awareness of the community to change? The subforum has to bend to compensate for their presence or get broken. Whatever it takes to get people quality information in a manner people will actually read, is worth it. If they can't get that info, it's a failing of the forum, not the people - the forum is here to service the people, not the other way around.

For what it's worth, the stickies are waaaaay too long and nebulous. I think most new people who look at them see their length and go "fuck that". That is a problem. We also don't have good sticky management, because half the stickies are useless crap (at least in my opinion).

Ok, by reading this wall of text (damn you creeps), most of hate for our G&R shitposters (including me also, i am aware of this) is going for constant "PLAY MORE". Small explanation, clear and fuckin easy to understand (unless you are a damn seaweed then sorry, cannot help this):

1. Around 75% topics created here by random people oscillates around one simple question: How do i click this circles?

And you - yes you seaweeds expect us to go into this silly braindead guy home, take his hand and click circles for him!
You know what - cba - sticky topics already say how you can click a damn circles on the screen and if you still don't understand - play more.
By reading sticky topics you should already learn and with at least one working brain cell, realy, this doesn't require you to use full brain, just a small part of it - there is no magical way to click circles better than practice.

2. Around 20% topics created by random people are actualy pretty interesting questions which ask themself for proper answer.

And yes, if you look closely, we, this shitposters what you hate so much, answer this, do work, search web, search wiki to give a silly guy good answer what he will understand. (as @otoed1 linked one of this topics). Sadly, you seaweeds still see only hate there.

3. Around 5% topics here are typical shitposts

And yes, since G&R shitposting is waaay above OT level and actualy (example of Shizuku) they cannot even come close into our shitposting level. Just... don't try to be funny (example of Shizuku) in OT low level way. Even this shitposting keep some reasonable level and can contain usefull informations if you know how to read betwin the lines.

So ladies and gentlemans, don't blame G&R for looking like shit but blame people who don't read sticky topics and actualy maybe if you want to help - try to turn railed topic into proper track.

Personaly, i still love ya seaweeds and offer theoretical wiki informations / sticky topics informations / some help in searching interesting informations. I know i am not only one here for this.

Philosofikal wrote:

For what it's worth, the stickies are waaaaay too long and nebulous. I think most new people who look at them see their length and go "fuck that".

then they don't wanna git gud that badly at circle click. that's their problem.

the subreddit is crap
says something when something is too bad for even ME

90% of threads are

1. check out reimus new video!
2. is X player a cheater? enclused screenshot of wubwoofwolf's nipple might prove it!
3. omg i FC'd hoshizora no ima
4. crazy score everyone already knew about!

I wouldn't say G&R itself is pointless, it's just prone to pointless threads. It's really a shame. Tournaments is OK from my understanding, though.
To be honest, the whole osu! forum is prone to pointless threads. I may have made a pointless thread once, actually. However, I don't remember doing so. It's just a possibility.

I think the subreddit is the pointless thing here for all the reasons that Riince has already mentioned.

Philosofikal wrote:

What's the point of standing strong against an unstoppable force? How can you expect people with no investment or awareness of the community to change? The subforum has to bend to compensate for their presence or get broken. Whatever it takes to get people quality information in a manner people will actually read, is worth it. If they can't get that info, it's a failing of the forum, not the people - the forum is here to service the people, not the other way around.

For what it's worth, the stickies are waaaaay too long and nebulous. I think most new people who look at them see their length and go "fuck that". That is a problem. We also don't have good sticky management, because half the stickies are useless crap (at least in my opinion).

I cant expect people to change if whatever stupid thing (asking for spoonfeed) works, because oviously theres no reason for them to change, why would i stop being lazy if i can make everyone else work for me? I know i wouldnt, but i refuse to let lazy people make me work for them in the same manner. Yes, its fairly pointless if its only a few people refusing it because theres always somebody else who spoonfeeds. Im only hoping that atleast a few people take up the banner and do the same. (Which happens in form of shitposts atm, which i honestly dont like either, stupid questions and redunant treads should just be ignored, for they shall sink into the archive unanswered then, forcing the baby to look for food some other way)
That said, a wiki or a forums service is hosting the information (and discussion in the forums case) for people to read, they cannot service a person who doesnt want to read. I wouldnt say thats a failing of the forum, but rather of the people who dont read. What can a wiki possibly do other than hosting information?
Theres even ingame popups containing some of this information (which i forgot to mention in my rant), what do you propose should the forum/wiki do in order to make the information even more accessible for people who dont want to read in the first place?

Ill give you that some of the stickies could be shortened and more "accessible" trough that, but that would probably end up being "play more" and "If you're bad at x then keep doing x", theres a reason why the shitposters repeat that over and over for all these over and over repeated questions. Osu is in all honesty not a complicated game by any stretch of imagination, theres not much to discuss about.

Well, that's a very counterproductive attitude.

Osu is in all honesty not a complicated game by any stretch of imagination, theres not much to discuss about.

You have 150pp in standard, what do you know about being good?

Philosofikal wrote:

Well, that's a very counterproductive attitude.

Osu is in all honesty not a complicated game by any stretch of imagination, theres not much to discuss about.

You have 150pp in standard, what do you know about being good?

he is right though, it is not complicated, you just click the circles. the difficulty of the game doesn't come from gameplay complexity.

Philosofikal wrote:

Well, that's a very counterproductive attitude.

Osu is in all honesty not a complicated game by any stretch of imagination, theres not much to discuss about.

You have 150pp in standard, what do you know about being good?

You click circles, you're better at clicking circles when you can do it faster and/or more accurate.
Does that sound about right to you? I dont need 1000+ pps to understand this, nobody should need more pps to understand this. In fact, how many pps you have is irrelevant to understanding this.

It might be a counterproductive attitude in the sense that i refuse to work, yes, however so is their attitude of just the same thing. Instead of working for others redunant questions i work for my own questions (which may be just as redunant, which is why i dont ask them on the forum) and for questions/discussions which are actually worthy working for. Is this supposed to be a bad attitude? If so im sorry, but i dont see how so.

the only real difference is knowledge of walls, someone with 500 pp won't understand and might think "man i just keep improving ill be cookiezi in no time!" but someone with 5000 will be familiar with skill plateau's and valleys and even long stretches of not improving even when trying.

Riince wrote:

he is right though, it is not complicated, you just click the circles. the difficulty of the game doesn't come from gameplay complexity.

Agreed.

The difficulty of the game comes from learning physical and mental technique, which is, in fact, very complicated. If it wasn't complicated, osu! would be a straight line in terms of how good you get / how long you've played, and everyone would be equally good at each kind of map.

Philosofikal wrote:

The difficulty of the game comes from learning physical and mental technique, which is, in fact, very complicated. If it wasn't complicated, osu! would be a straight line in terms of how good you get / how long you've played, and everyone would be equally good at each kind of map.

That's actually a pretty good point, no-one learns osu! the same as another due to physical and mental technique. From my understanding, as you play osu! or any other games or activities, the connections between your neurons in your brain become stronger, making your brain able to process information regarding the game or activity which makes you better at that game or activity over time. It's obvious that this doesn't happen at the same rate for everyone as all our brains are different and we don't develop in the same way.