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Yiruma - River Flows in You (LR Mix) [OsuMania]

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YatsuKaori
Wanjir starnya deres
Topic Starter
LordRaika
Major Update :
-finished the SB
-rescale and rebalance all "Easy" difficulty
-update some notes.


thats it... now that the SB is done, all element is here... lets get things rolling...
(btw i gave up on scaling Beginner and Easy' s Star rating XD, unlike Normal-Insane, where i scale from 4k-9k)

if anyone have some suggestion, feel free to give the opinion
Slyk
before download this map HOW THE FUK A MAP HAVE 21.??? MB OAO#
I think is because the storyboard or something???
Gero
(ノ・ω・)ノ
Topic Starter
LordRaika

GhostFY wrote:

before download this map HOW THE FUK A MAP HAVE 21.??? MB OAO#
I think is because the storyboard or something???

Total File Size : around 29MB

-11.2MB (Storyboard material, and the osb itself)
-12.5MB (All hitsound and sample)
-1.5MB (All *.osu difficulty)
-4.1MB (The mp3 itself and the BG)
Dellvangel
Just a little help from me, hope this can help you to improve this map.

  1. "BG2.jpg" looks squashed on height imo, and the size itself is a bit low (1280 x 720), though it's not unrankable. Could be better if you use this http://puu.sh/shOz6/3c86a00b00.jpg (1366 x 768) or if want to cut it by yourself http://puu.sh/shOCP/24e92b54be.jpg (2400 x 1492). Btw, 1920 x 1200 is rankable now.
  2. Also, http://puu.sh/shOFI/1dcc58bebc.jpg and http://puu.sh/shOHu/158e73ca75.jpg , "Thumbs" (.db) files seems useless, already tried to delete them and the SB still works properly.
That's all i think, such a nice map, good luck! :)
Kamikaze
Okay, I read the description and know your intentions, but we need to touch on the subject of keysounding.

The reason why hitsounding is a must for ranked maps is because most (silent majority) players need audio feedback on hitting the notes. That is they need to hear when they hit correctly and when they're not. I personally don't really care, but I tend to do better on SV heavy maps or just on acc with hitsounds clearly audible.
Keysounding does that job great, because you hear distortions in the song if you hit notes incorrectly, you can clearly make out that you've missed or even what note exactly have you missed.

HOWEVER.
There is a certain element of keysounding and osu!mania ranking criteria in regards to it that people confuse a lot. That is:

If you make keysounds for the exact sounds happening in the mp3 without cutting it out of the mp3, you are making a 100% blended in hitsound which is not audible enough and as a result it's not viable.

If you're making a keysounded chart, you should:
a) fully keysound it, put a blank mp3 and if you want, put a link do the version (or just the mp3) with matching offset and mp3 for players who don't play with keysounds
b) cut out parts of the song which you keysounded
c) not fully keysound it, but make the sounds stand out ever so slightly so that you can actually distinguish them.

I've played this chart now after not playing for a bit:


and on all of those misses the only thing that made me notice that I was missing was and combobreak.wav

Do not use the argument of "others did it so why I can't do it" as well. The fact that this was allowed and ignored in most cases is not something I had any control over, but this needs to stop, hitsounding went to shit altogether on a vast majority of ranked maps from last year or so.
Not saying that that's the case here, but stating my point.

I wanna see this set ranked, hell, I can go through it and check it for bubble, but first you gotta do something about the keysounding+mp3.
Topic Starter
LordRaika
Thanks for the check and opinion, first, take your time and read my reply. >w<

-Kamikaze- wrote:

HOWEVER.
There is a certain element of keysounding and osu!mania ranking criteria in regards to it that people confuse a lot. That is:

If you make keysounds for the exact sounds happening in the mp3 without cutting it out of the mp3, you are making a 100% blended in hitsound which is not audible enough and as a result it's not viable.


FIRST THINGS FIRST, i thought u already realize that i didnt EVEN touch the mp3 , cut and take PORTION of the mp3 into any of my hitsound files.

in short, they are COMPLETELY different files that coincidentally sound too blends but in fact,
the violin, the piano, the snare, the hihat, everything is different in my hearing, but SURE, for the first time, people might think its perfectly same as the mp3 D:

i even put more works to remade the Reverse cymbal, rescale their duration and other stuff to fits the song.





If you're making a keysounded chart, you should:
a) fully keysound it, put a blank mp3 and if you want, put a link do the version (or just the mp3) with matching offset and mp3 for players who don't play with keysounds
b) cut out parts of the song which you keysounded
c) not fully keysound it, but make the sounds stand out ever so slightly so that you can actually distinguish them.


i "CAN" :
-even make the REAL mp3 into more colorful by adding my custom song/another instrumental layer, merge it together into the song's "mp3"
(keeping the rest as hitsound) (keeping the real song, but +another layer of sound, like orchestra in more easier way to understand.)
-make it blank mp3, make another version to be downloadable


BUT, do you know that doing so
-violate the real mp3, i dont even want to edit the mp3 , or can i???? then what should i do with the metadata after that?
-make the mp3 blank, isnt it making ME MAPPING GHOST NOTE for all the keysound?

QATS still hold their stands, saying "you cant map the note even using KEYSOUND if the song doesnt have the sound"
for example bms song, doesNT have any 1/6 or 1/12 sound from the mp3, but the KEYSOUND is those extra note
qat wont let me DO THIS, if so you can already imagine what i could made with this freedom.






Do not use the argument of "others did it so why I can't do it" as well. The fact that this was allowed and ignored in most cases is not something I had any control over, but this needs to stop, hitsounding went to shit altogether on a vast majority of ranked maps from last year or so.
Not saying that that's the case here, but stating my point.


why should i? i never intend to do anything most likely SAME WITH the others, in fact
i tend to do things uniquely that no one ever did D:
just saying, that i dont even take any reference by any other previously ranked map at all... (that i dont get what u mean >.<)
i always follow the Ranking Criteria! thats why i reply all of these.





I wanna see this set ranked, hell, I can go through it and check it for bubble, but first you gotta do something about the keysounding+mp3.


honestly, this is easy task to me, yep it is... i can SIMPLY replace the hitsound with my other type sound that still similar.
or i will re edit into FLs to make each hitsound into something different... (in short, overwrite the current files could do)


BUT... BUT WHY should i... WHY!!!
i made this fully aware of the RC, im sure i didnt violate any of them.... D:


like,... is there even ANY ranked maps with SILENT/blank mp3????
yes Loctav said you CANT ever try to rank again without mp3, IN2006 is special case. that doesnt mean blank mp3 could work.
that doesnt mean, editting half of the real mp3 or so, will works as well....
(i "did" ask once, when i want to map full keysound only, no mp3 beatmap)

at least broh, give me the reason why i should change on what ive been working on for this beatmap....
dont take this as an offense, im merely stating and stands still from what i map :D
till we reach an agreement, while you can see i didnt say you are wrong, i even could do what you suggest.




Dellvangel wrote:

Just a little help from me, hope this can help you to improve this map.

  1. "BG2.jpg" looks squashed on height imo, and the size itself is a bit low (1280 x 720), though it's not unrankable. Could be better if you use this http://puu.sh/shOz6/3c86a00b00.jpg (1366 x 768) or if want to cut it by yourself http://puu.sh/shOCP/24e92b54be.jpg (2400 x 1492). Btw, 1920 x 1200 is rankable now.
  2. Also, http://puu.sh/shOFI/1dcc58bebc.jpg and http://puu.sh/shOHu/158e73ca75.jpg , "Thumbs" (.db) files seems useless, already tried to delete them and the SB still works properly.
That's all i think, such a nice map, good luck! :)
Wow , thanks :)
yep, i know about the rule, but as you can see, i try to look for higher size from the real one but it doesnt exist...
since u've found it, sure i will cut and reedit the image into fitting res.

yeah dont worry, will delete it for next update.
thanks for the mention~ >w<)/
Kamikaze
You got some things mixed up. Let me try to clear it up.

LordRaika wrote:


in short, they are COMPLETELY different files that coincidentally sound too blends but in fact,
the violin, the piano, the snare, the hihat, everything is different in my hearing, but SURE, for the first time, people might think its perfectly same as the mp3 D:

Underlined important sentences. This is exactly what I mean by keysounds blending TOO MUCH.


LordRaika wrote:

i "CAN" :
-even make the REAL mp3 into more colorful by adding my custom song/another instrumental layer, merge it together into the song's "mp3"
(keeping the rest as hitsound) (keeping the real song, but +another layer of sound, like orchestra in more easier way to understand.)
-make it blank mp3, make another version to be downloadable


BUT, do you know that doing so
-violate the real mp3, i dont even want to edit the mp3 , or can i???? then what should i do with the metadata after that?
It does not violate the mp3, you are transfering the instruments to the playfield. It's exactly the same as BMS charting, you can edit the song however you please with samples and it's nothing wrong. And there is no reason why metadata would ever change in that case.
-make the mp3 blank, isnt it making ME MAPPING GHOST NOTE for all the keysound? how did you come to this conclusion? I'm amazed actually that you would consider recreating the song using same/really similar instrument samples as something that cannot be done.


QATS still hold their stands, saying "you cant map the note even using KEYSOUND if the song doesnt have the sound"
for example bms song, doesNT have any 1/6 or 1/12 sound from the mp3, but the KEYSOUND is those extra note
qat wont let me DO THIS, if so you can already imagine what i could made with this freedom.
That is the case if you map a song from the mp3, if the MP3 doesn't have those sounds, you should not add them. BUT if you are fully keysounding you can interpret the song however you want. It's like you could not put a faster hihat burst if you'd be remixing a song in a music program, because thre original has a specific burst. With keysounding you are basically recreating the song yourself with samples provided.



LordRaika wrote:

honestly, this is easy task to me, yep it is... i can SIMPLY replace the hitsound with my other type sound that still similar.
or i will re edit into FLs to make each hitsound into something different... (in short, overwrite the current files could do)


BUT... BUT WHY should i... WHY!!!
i made this fully aware of the RC, im sure i didnt violate any of them.... D:

I stated why, the keysounds blend too much with the music. It was actually a topic brought to my attention by Okoratu, a QAT member, after a discussion with mania part of people who are working on new ranking criteria right now and he told me that this precedent should stop, because those keysounds do not provide enough audio feedback.

LordRaika wrote:

like,... is there even ANY ranked maps with SILENT/blank mp3????
yes Loctav said you CANT ever try to rank again without mp3, IN2006 is special case. that doesnt mean blank mp3 could work.
that doesnt mean, editting half of the real mp3 or so, will works as well....
(i "did" ask once, when i want to map full keysound only, no mp3 beatmap)

at least broh, give me the reason why i should change on what ive been working on for this beatmap....


Here's what you really misunderstood. Blank mp3=/= no mp3. Blank mp3s or even mp3s with cut out parts have been ranked before on mania and I can brink examples if needed (like for example DJPop maps). The reason why I ask you to change it is because of them blending too much which in result makes hitsounds not really audible, only doubling the actual sounds which sounds more confusing then helping in gameplay. Most BNs would let this go through, but also most BNs have let a lot of maps through with nearly silent hitsounds in the past.

LordRaika wrote:

dont take this as an offense, im merely stating and stands still from what i map :D
till we reach an agreement, while you can see i didnt say you are wrong, i even could do what you suggest.
No problem, I don't take any of this personally and neither should you ;)
However I still stand by my stance on this. If you want I can call someone else to judge this case, possibly a QAT or Loctav to make a definite decision.
Topic Starter
LordRaika

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Underlined important sentences. This is exactly what I mean by keysounds blending TOO MUCH.
but why..if its keysound, it should be great and perfect
if its hitsound, it should not blend too much and should be noticeable...



-make the mp3 blank, isnt it making ME MAPPING GHOST NOTE for all the keysound?
how did you come to this conclusion? I'm amazed actually that you would consider recreating the song using same/really similar instrument samples as something that cannot be done.
because the case will be, editted mp3 + keysound,
most likely the editted mp3 at the point of time doesnt have the sound, and then we keysound it, let say its full 1/8
SO... FOR OTHER people who dont even know the song, should they check the real song if it does have 1/8 or not.
in other view, QAT see it like mapping to ghost sound.... D:




QATS still hold their stands.....
That is the case if you map a song from the mp3, if the MP3 doesn't have those sounds, you should not add them. BUT if you are fully keysounding you can interpret the song however you want. It's like you could not put a faster hihat burst if you'd be remixing a song in a music program, because thre original has a specific burst. With keysounding you are basically recreating the song yourself with samples provided.
you mean with what have been map for the real mp3....
so again, everyone should check the original of the song? and so......





like,... is there even ANY ranked maps with SILENT/blank mp3????
yes Loctav said you CANT ever try to rank again without mp3..........

Here's what you really misunderstood. Blank mp3=/= no mp3. Blank mp3s or even mp3s with cut out parts have been ranked before on mania and I can brink examples if needed (like for example DJPop maps). The reason why I ask you to change it is because of them blending too much which in result makes hitsounds not really audible, only doubling the actual sounds which sounds more confusing then helping in gameplay. Most BNs would let this go through, but also most BNs have let a lot of maps through with nearly silent hitsounds in the past.

no no no, i mean : "using blank mp3, doesnt solve a must having mp3 for RC" , i never said its same.
and allrite, since you are using that one as Reference, ley say... "snow halation" , im sure current QAT can ask like
"how could u map that glissando 1/16?" is it even correct?
the song is using full flat key as stream, around 19note from the piano sheet.
while the mapper map with custom keysound, it has total of 28note 1/16, this is totally custom usage.
WHILE ITS STILL TRUE, he is using all flat key as stream, so in piano sense, its still fine, its jst simply use more octave.
in mapping,its clearly overmapping from the real one? is it allowed?
"iIF" qats know about this, IM SURE THEY WONT... let you do that...
yeah... "IF"

1/4 hihat, some end of 1/4 burst sounds like 1/8 sound, ofc i could make 1/8 out of it, WHY NOT?? im free to customize my keysound/hitsound right?
this is the case , i cant even sure if QAT allow it or not




i can SIMPLY replace the hitsound with my other ty.....
I stated why, the keysounds blend too much with the music. It was actually a topic brought to my attention by Okoratu, a QAT member, after a discussion with mania part of people who are working on new ranking criteria right now and he told me that this precedent should stop, because those keysounds do not provide enough audio feedback.
it should be hitsound then, not keysound... and its not a big deal yet on o!m, or i havent heard the whole changes. thats why we need....


...need to bring the QATs or People in charge here, to MAKE things/rule clear here. there are few hidden rules, or ITS not hidden actually...
its just dont being state, but its something like the opposite of the current rule that exist on what you can do or not.

mainly to QATs :
-Hitsound should be use clearly as difference sound from the song for it to be noticeable as "HIT"
-Keysound however, is fine if it sounds BLEND as the original song. BUT...
     the usage, is there any rule when and where i can only use the keysound? what i mean is the mp3 condition.
-if i use editted mp3, let say TV Size song, the editted mp3 ONLY have the vocal... then I HITSOUND the rest of the instrument with keysound.
     clearly "nobody" know what have i done with the song or keysound snapping, UNLESS those people do all the trouble to check the real song's
     in terms of snapping and other stuff. (example, you MIGHT not even notice i put 1/4 electric guitar on it, you might not even know ive tampered with the      song instrumental, chord, and pitch but still preserve the harmonic), in other words, ive did something not original... SO...

what about ADDing a new rule, to make this clear... a rule that stating
1)"Keysound can be use creatively to define the beatmap's song"
2)"Hitsound sample should have difference feedback from the song itself"


Agreeing in point "1)" will allow mapper to map keysound on any snap, making it fully customize and free to make creative map.
not being agree to point one, QAT&BNG should seriously take responsible if THEY ever encounter any keysound map...
they should be able to prove what mapper did is wrong in snapping



I might pour too much thoughts here, let see whats their respond.
and is there even any wrong to this beatmap?
Modren
Hello!


Great map!
c:
Loctav
Inaudible sounds are unrankable. If the hitsounds/keysounds/sounds when you press the goddamn key blend too much with the mp3 that you have issues distinguishing whether the noise came from pressing the key or from the song itself, this goes as inaudible and is unrankable.

LordRaika wrote:

-make the mp3 blank, isnt it making ME MAPPING GHOST NOTE for all the keysound?
you can't be that silly, please. Making the mp3 blank is unrankable, but still, using the individual samples and reattach them into each other (pmuch the definition of keysounding) is perfectly fine. Preferably, the deattached samples you use as keysound are NOT IN THE Mp3 anymore! (so you just don't DUPLICATE the sample which always sounds shit). Whether you remove the piano noises, find an MP3 without them or change the hitsounds is up to you.


Doubling the noises and having perfectly blending hitsounds with the mp3 is still unrankable. (Obviously, they are *supposed* to blend due to the nature of being keysounds, but the blending should only happen if the key is pressed correctly and not blend regardless whether you press the key, press it wrong or don't press it at all. If you can not distinguish whether the pressing of the key made the noise or not, you have a problem)

I looked at it and the beginning is already not working, because of the described "I don't know if I pressed it right or wrong, because the piano plays correctly nontheless".

EDIT: could you get rid of the sprites that have cameltoes?

EDIT2: I reconsidered, the storyboard and background and everything is 100% unrelated to the map. Can we like... not use some eroge crap as background image/storyboard stuff that absolutely has no relation to the song?
Exile-

Loctav wrote:

I reconsidered, the storyboard and background and everything is 100% unrelated to the map. Can we like... not use some eroge crap as background image/storyboard stuff that absolutely has no relation to the song?
That wasn't my idea :)
Topic Starter
LordRaika
this have to wait for like 3days, im having a disaster on my PC that i have to fix the hardware
im currently 200km away from hometown and its hard to find any good sparepart for my PC here, will be at home soon


i will reply again soon :(
sry for the wait,
yatusabe
[lucky:1337][/lucky:1337] ;) 10/10
Topic Starter
LordRaika
Finally after i took my time to think of the best way to solve this.... ive found the solution and working hard to realising the idea.



>>> Updated <<<

What's New?

  1. Remake whole mp3, tuning all pitch down by 1 octave. Changing piano to much softer and smoother,
    reducing volume of drum, remove unnecessary wind and noise. Add more excited drum-roll pattern as finishing.
  2. Rescale drum's hitsound file volume to match the song.
  3. Replace cameltoe image.
  4. Changed metadata.

Description and reply to previous main issue :

  1. This new mp3 is create from scratch in FL Studio by myself.
  2. Instead of making a whole mp3 with only bass piano's beatdown, or even make a blank mp3, or recreate hitsound file one by one,
    i reduce main piano pitch by 1 octave and change lots of stuff on this new mp3.
     
    The main mp3 piano is leaning to the left audio channel,(and its lower octave)
    While the hitsound piano is leaning to the right audio channel,(since its higher octave)
     
    Now then both is clearly different(huge 1 octave range, channel percentage division, and piano type) so there is no more excuse its going
    to blend or player cant even distinguish which one is mp3 or hitsound. Its... Perfect.
    I really hope you are satisfy with the work now.
     
  3. Player can experiment with the volume setting, by choosing 60%SFX + 100%Music,
    100%SFX + 50%Music, 0%SFX + 100%Music, 100%SFX + (0%Music and or +DT/HT)
    player could hear and feel all sound color from this one beatmap with simply adjusting those volume setting.
     
  4. For SB, i "respect" people's work. I try to never waste or delete people's hardwork, at least i will think of a way to improve or make the work better, the same with me, i dont want to just simply delete my work. The previous SB idea and sprite is from Gero, and due to some circumstances, Gero cant finish the SB, so Exile and me finish the rest of the SB along with the previous sprite.
     
    This should be fine, its related to the song genre, (about romance and not ero), and most SB doesnt even have to be from the song itself, it could be a story from the outside that still emphasize the song, if SB should be related or from the song, 70% of the ranked SB should not even get there. I hope you understand this, TQ~
Now then, im sure i dont have to quote and reply other unnecessary things. Its useless to argue since i already give my solution above as the answer. So i will wait if there is any other issue that holding this map to going rank.







and Final things related to this and about something that i make :

>>>PROJECT D.A.T.A.<<<

Its not finished, but that will give you FULL rough idea regarding hitsound/keysound/mp3 blend or whatever issue.



To make it easy, this will help your check :
  1. Mp3 is recreate in 3 version from the original.
  2. Each New Mp3 now doesnt have main sound to follow, so how to map? referring to original mp3? Nobody know it unless me.
    Now then.... find and tell me any unrankable issue on this new mp3, ive actually make it full 1/4 everywhere.
  3. All the difficulty there is not for playing yet, its for keysound chart.
    Drum is going to be main keysound/hitsound when it comes to main mapping.
  4. Ofc there wont be any blending issue anymore, but now, is that kind of mp3 you want me to make? regarding of Ranking Criteria,
    and with that kind of mp3, now you do realise that only me as the mapper know what im doing with it(on what i map).
That's it, i hope i will get the answer because its important, i need a clear confirmation about it
Thank you~ >w<
Shionia-Chan
PatZar
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-====================EDIT2: I reconsidered, the storyboard and background and everything is 100% unrelated to the map.
lol

edit:

loctav don't run away, and please reply here..
Arzenvald
wado di update
AchsanLovers
ITS BACK!!!!!!!???????
Topic Starter
LordRaika
Yes, it is.

Case Closed
I stop counting on "How" long did i wait for the reply. So i take the conclusion that.....
The person who add the ranking issue can't even answer after i solved the problem,
and that person probably don't know how to deal with his own issue.
  1. Saying that keysound need a special mp3, keysound should not blend with mp3(defeat the purpose of keysound btw)
    This alone require you to make the mp3 not having any of keysound's sample, so it's not blend. OKAY, but its technically became
    mapping to Ghost sound, since you remove the sample from the mp3, and the sample only exist on Keysound hit.
    Take this as example
I already made everything and solve them for that person, even help fixing that criteria logic, and that person just ignore it. Great!
(well, not that i care. What i achieve and what i can create is whats matter.)
Everything is solved from my post here.
All the detail about 'LR Mix' is on that post.

Now i'm done taking care of it, this is still a masterpiece beatmap and i will make it ranked.
AchsanLovers

LordRaika wrote:

i will make it ranked.
YES
HYPE
YEAH!

b-but, i still prefer the original mp3 :(
Shionia-Chan

LordRaika wrote:

i will make it ranked.
Yes, Finally?


AchsanLovers wrote:

b-but, i still prefer the original mp3 :(
The low octave piano sounds good imo
Else, you can disable the music and only use sound effect., Looks neat too
Protastic101
I am so sorry about the wait, I had completely forgotten about this until you just reminded me this morning Q_Q
Cause all the diffs appear to be the same rhythm and placement albeit more spread out in higher keymodes, Im going to mod the 4K only for now and will recheck everything else once I'm satisfied with that. That being said, if you make a change in the 4K, you should do it to all your other diffs to keep their consistency.

aaa

General
  1. I think the OD all of the Beginner diffs is too high for the low density in notes. I would suggest OD 6.5. As for the HP, I think it's too low in this case as you can miss around ~16 notes and still be left alive which is about 15 seconds into the song. I'd raise it to 6.5 too then
  2. As for the Easies, I would do OD/HP 7/7 as I think the current OD is too high for the starting player base, and the HP too low considering you can still miss a fair amount of notes and recover in 3 or 4 hits.
  3. For the Normals, I'm fine with the HP but OD 8 is really pushing it. I would use 7.5 at most so that the player still has a possible chance of SSing this at their relative level.
  4. Hards could probs tone it down a bit on the OD. I think OD 8 would be better as it allows intermediate players a looser timing window that's just hard enough to begin forcing them to be accurate.
  5. Lastly, for the Insanes, I think OD/HP 9/9 is overkill because there are still some LNs present and the amount of short notes present aren't bursty in nature which makes the high HP redundant and just far too punishing. At most, I would use OD/HP 8.5/8.5

4K
[Beginner]
00:14:571 (14571|2,14785|3) - I get that this is for the lower harmony of the song, but I think the player would be focusing more on the melody at 00:14:142 - and 00:14:357 - instead, so having the 1/2 at 00:14:571 (14571|2,14785|3) - may feel very misleading for the player. If anything, they would probably read it as a continuation of the 1/1 stair. Either way, it's kind of hard to predict this coming. What I would do is control J the notes (move the hitsound with it too)
so that they go in a different direction to what the player is used to, acting as a visual distinction between 1/1 and 1/2. It does break the pitch relevancy of this part, but I think it's ok for readability.

00:45:856 (45856|1,46284|1) - I wouldnt stack these notes as their base is the same, but the actual top note is a different pitch from the top note of 00:45:856 (45856|1) - which I think is more noticeable to newer players than the bass notes which require a bit of attention to hear first.

00:47:999 - Kind of seems like this part is copy pasted directly from 00:41:142 - which makes the gameplay a little boring because of how repetitive it is.

01:08:570 - I'd add a jump here for consistency with 00:54:856 - which is the same sound but mapped with different emphasis here.

01:40:284 (100284|2,100499|3) - 01:26:570 (86570|2,86784|3) - Same thing I said about 00:14:571 (14571|2,14785|3) -

01:53:142 - to 01:58:713 - rip column 2. I get that it's all for pitch relevancy, but I dont think you should be sacrificing hand balance and playability for it.
This is a difficulty aimed at people who have never played a VSRG before I assume, so it makes no sense to let them go a full 5 seconds without using
one entire column. It's a strong right hand bias that will strain the player :/

01:59:142 - to 02:05:570 - same thing as the above but for column 3. Hand balance is super important for players of this level as it allows them to build up finger independence and the concept of hand balance.

02:15:427 - to 02:20:142 - watch out for col 1 here now

02:42:856 (162856|3) - Shouldnt this note start lower than 02:43:284 (163284|2,163713|3) - because the pitch is lower? And I know that you've been strictly following pitch relevancy, so it seems odd to exclude this one instance from it.


[Easy]
00:25:500 - to 00:30:428 - I didnt mention this the last time it occurred once before this, but you have got to watch out for your hand balance here. Column 2 goes unused for five seconds at a time, and Im not just going to chalk it up to pitch relevancy as that's something that I believe should not get in the way of playability and overall chart friendliness to a newer player.

00:54:856 - to 00:58:499 - Now col 1 is pretty empty for a while. I'd try to keep your vacant columns lasting only 2 seconds and less preferably so that there's still some semblance of hand balance.

01:16:713 - to 01:19:284 - Similar thing to the above. Gonna stop mentioning these now, but I'd really consider rebalancing some of them.

02:35:945 (155945|1,156106|2) - Definitely wouldn't use this for an easy because it's too fast for the player to read and comprehend, then move to execute the pattern properly. Might just stick with making 02:35:570 (155570|2) - an LN or something to represent the sound.

Overall the patterns used are fine but the hand balance is a real problem that needs to be resolved somehow, whether by rearranging some of the notes to make the empty columns a bit more full, or breaking some of the pitch relevancy for playability. Overall, the chart has a very strong right hand bias as all the places I listed were on the left hand and never the right.


[Normal]
00:06:803 (6803|2,6857|3) - I remember talking to Maxus before in a different map, Zanarkand Nite about using graces in low level difficulties such as the normal here and we decided that because there were instances of maps being DQed before it, not to use such fast graces. In this case, I would simply move the note here to the storyboard as it essentially plays like a triple due to the closeness to each other. The timing ends up being so small that the player can simply place it as a hand without the grace.

00:33:267 (33267|2,33428|3,33642|2) - This is a bit difficult to follow due to the uneven spacing between notes while also being visually similar. I would change note direction so that there's not an awkward spacing gap in col 3, like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807627

01:17:142 - to 01:18:856 - Throughout this entire measure, col 1 isnt used T_T and I already explained the importance of hand balance in the beginner diff :c

01:45:267 (105267|2,105427|3,105642|2) - Same thing as at 00:33:267 (33267|2,33428|3,33642|2) -

02:05:356 - 02:05:784 - I think because the B5 is so pronounced here that it would be nice to add stacks for it, like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807642

02:18:856 (138856|1,138856|2,139284|2,139284|1,139713|1,139713|2,140142|1,140142|2) - I'm modding this out of order so I already explained myself in the following diffs but basically tldr; is that this pattern puts all movement on the outer columns and all weight on the inner, making an overall unbalanced gameplay experience imo due to only ever having one concept but not the other.


[Hard]
00:30:642 (30642|0,30696|1,30750|2,30803|3,30857|0) - Might vary this or something to make it different from 00:16:928 (16928|0,16982|1,17035|2,17089|3,17142|0) - since they all just roll the same way.

00:27:321 (27321|1,27375|2,27428|3,27428|0) - Similar suggestion to the above since 00:06:750 (6750|1,6803|2,6857|3,6857|0) - 00:13:607 (13607|1,13660|2,13714|3,13714|0) - are all the same :c

01:20:570 - I feel that the pattern here is a bit too repetitive or bland, and could do with some variation. Maybe something like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807588

01:57:856 (117856|0,117856|3,117963|2,118070|1,118177|0) - Might be nice to trill these since their pitch alternates and then continues descending again. Maybe a [14][3][2][3] pattern would work, like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807596

02:18:856 - You could have at least made the jumps descend a bit and make it different from the Insane without outright just removing a note and calling it a day Q_Q https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807601

02:35:570 (155570|1) - I'd move this to a column that's different from 02:35:838 (155838|1) - because the awkward spacing between the notes is impossibly difficult to read without a column separation between them to help with the visual snap cue. Col 1 seems best in this case.


[Insane]
00:30:642 (30642|1,30750|2) - Shouldn't these be jacked for pitch relevancy like you did at 00:16:928 (16928|2,17035|2) - ? Even if not, I'd suggest inverting the pattern so that it goes 1-2-4-3 instead as I think this is easier to hit because it flows the way your fingers would naturally roll as opposed to going against it.

00:33:267 (33267|2) - I'm probably going to get shot for asking this but is there a way you could edit the mp3 to have this start at 00:33:285 - on the 1/3 instead? Currently, the 3/8 rhythm is really hard to understand intuitively and it simply feels awkward going from that to a clean 1/2 at 00:33:428 (33428|3,33642|2) - .

00:40:928 (40928|2,41142|2,41356|2,41570|2,41784|2) - I think this is a bit of an unnecessary stack tbh. Like, the BPM is only 140 but it creates a right hand bias which is noticeable while playing. It'd be better to try and balance out the notes instead imo.

00:45:856 (45856|1,45856|2) - I believe this jump should be different from the one used at 00:45:642 (45642|1,45642|2) - since that's the kind of pattern and structure found through this build up going into the kiai.

00:49:713 (49713|2,49927|2,50142|2,50356|2,50570|2) - again, another long stack.

00:50:999 (50999|0,50999|1) - same suggestion as at 00:45:856 (45856|2,45856|1) -

00:52:499 (52499|1,52713|1,52927|1,53142|1) - *stack intensifies*

00:58:713 (58713|2,58927|2,59142|2,59356|2,59570|2) - I think the capped 1/4 triplet here would be easier to hit if there wasn't so much weight on the right hand. I'd try something like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8806030

01:05:999 (65999|2,65999|3,66213|3,66213|2) - I would wait to stack these until 01:06:856 - where the kick actually becomes repeated. So maybe you could spread the notes out instead like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807419

01:08:142 - I don't really know why this is a quad when it's just a snare + piano. It seems like you've only used quads for crashes such as the ones at kiai starts and ends, so I think in this case, the note should be a hand. Also, follow consistency with 02:06:427 -

01:57:642 (117642|2,117856|2,118070|2,118284|2,118499|2) - Lots of stacks here in the dense jump burst. I'd try this instead https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807545

02:04:499 - Similar thing here but there are no stacks. Rather, it's the direction flow I'm concerned about as it turns on the right hand and never on the left,
making it a bit more strained on col 3 and 4. I'd do this instead https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807549

02:18:856 (138856|2,138856|1,139070|1,139070|2,139284|1,139284|2,139499|1,139499|2,139713|2,139713|1,139927|2,139927|1,140142|2,140142|1) - Not really a fan of this. At all because of the fact that it changes direction every half beat, and puts all the weight in col 2 and 3 but the movement is always in 1 and 4. I'd try this instead then https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807560

02:29:142 (149142|3,149999|2,150427|3) - I think it'd be nice to mirror this with 02:27:427 (147427|0,147856|1,148713|1) - , so the first timestamp sent would look like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807568 . I also think it's easier to hit this way due to the earlier release being on the inner columns as opposed to outer.

02:42:856 - Just a comment that I think it's a bit odd to discontinue the full LNs here and use a wider mix of short notes and long notes now.

While the mapset is cool and all, you really gotta work on the hand balance vs pitch relevancy because there's often times places in the chart where one column is completely unused for measures at a time, even in sections with plenty going on in the music. Final thing I forgot to mention in general is that the background seems kind of low res and unrelated because it looks like it's taken directly from a VN or something of the sort. Might suggest finding a higher quality one.
Topic Starter
LordRaika

Protastic101 wrote:

General
  1. I think the OD all of the Beginner diffs is too high for the low density in notes. I would suggest OD 6.5. As for the .................
Here is my final change :
==HP/OD - Diff Name==
    6.4/7.0 - Beginner
    7.0/7.4 - Easy
    7.6/7.8 - Normal
    8.2/8.2 - Hard
    8.8/8.6 - Insane
================

  1. High OD, because this is accuracy map, and its still easy imo. It will sounds bad if you play it off sync,
    so yeah, acc should be high. It starts higher and lower in the end because of LN curve difficulty.
    (which is perfect now)
  2. Low starting HP, because this map aim for a complete beginner on any KEY or even new to rhythm game.
    Raising up high on last one, because it's still an easy map, but should not be underrestimate. If the player fail,
    it means they should NOT even try this, yet. Insane is pretty underrated. trust me, for some people, it's easy.
    but for those who is not familiar with a complete density map + unique LN, its hard. (its to suggest that they are not ready for this)
That change also cover up 90% of your concern about HP/OD accross the difficulty. So yeah, it's final.



4K

First thing first, the point of the mod here is good.(i already considered it more than 5times while i map it)
BUT, what's more important is the reason 'why' i map it like this.
and to strengthen my mapping reason, i have couple of a complete newbie friend IRL to test 'Beginner' & 'Easy'
that gives me a direct result from observing and see how it is goin.


I
[Beginner]
00:14:571 (14571|2,14785|3) - I get that this is for the lower harmony of the song, but I think the player would be focusing more on the melody at 00:14:142 - and 00:14:357 - instead, so having the 1/2 at 00:14:571 (14571|2,14785|3) - may feel very misleading for the player. If anything, they would probably read it as a continuation of the 1/1 stair. Either way, it's kind of hard to predict this coming. What I would do is control J the notes (move the hitsound with it too)
so that they go in a different direction to what the player is used to, acting as a visual distinction between 1/1 and 1/2. It does break the pitch relevancy of this part, but I think it's ok for readability.
i actually already test and consider this, no, the newbie dont miss it
but i will change it to 4 and 3 for this section ^^

01:40:284 (100284|2,100499|3) - 01:26:570 (86570|2,86784|3) - Same thing I said about 00:14:571 (14571|2,14785|3) -
but, i will keep it as it is here. for variation.


01:08:570 - I'd add a jump here for consistency with 00:54:856 - which is the same sound but mapped with different emphasis here.
I know, i knowww it. but on lower key like 4K, i will ignore the cymbal on 2nd impact section like this and here 02:06:856 - ,
it's also scale down the SR, i need this





= = = = = = = = = = = = =
01:53:142 - to 01:58:713 - rip column 2. I get that it's all for pitch relevancy, but I dont think you should be sacrificing hand balance and playability for it.
This is a difficulty aimed at people who have never played a VSRG before I assume, so it makes no sense to let them go a full 5 seconds without using
one entire column. It's a strong right hand bias that will strain the player :/
01:59:142 - to 02:05:570 - same thing as the above but for column 3. Hand balance is super important for players of this level as it allows them to build up finger independence and the concept of hand balance.
02:15:427 - to 02:20:142 - watch out for col 1 here now

If you can see my pattern, if you know what i map, THEN that's one of the reason why i map.
I want the player to be able to get what i map, to see and notice MY PATTERN.
No matter how i look at other's people map, 80% of every section, they have no pattern,
for me... that's basically note on random column, sometimes its just there for density and consistency ignoring playability.

I cant map like that anymore, i want to put every detail i could on my mapping nowadays.
My priority is still 'Playability > Pattern > Pitchp, the thing you mention above, i already consider it, dont worry.
First, its still easy for playability, (for higher key count of 'Beginner', you can start to see the variant of that pattern)
just because of column restriction, i will keep the pattern CLEAR and easy to be notice.
and for the 2nd and 3rd point, that's the result after i consider the 'pattern & pitch' altogether


i think thats it >w<, sry for long explanation
but for your point, you can check out 5K 6K 7K 8K 9K at the same spot, and you will notice why i want to map it like that.
i will keep it as it is now, but dont worry, the point of the mod is still good.

= = = = = = = = = = = = =






00:45:856 (45856|1,46284|1) - I wouldnt stack these notes as their base is the same, but the actual top note is a different pitch from the top note of 00:45:856 (45856|1) - which I think is more noticeable to newer players than the bass notes which require a bit of attention to hear first.
thanks but yeah, for pattern reason, and to break the 1232 , 2343, 4323 pattern


00:47:999 - Kind of seems like this part is copy pasted directly from 00:41:142 - which makes the gameplay a little boring because of how repetitive it is.
i want to keep the pattern while its consistent, so this is what happen, but i dont feel bad of it
since on 5K and above, (with more oclumn, i created another variation pattern out of the loop)






02:42:856 (162856|3) - Shouldnt this note start lower than 02:43:284 (163284|2,163713|3) - because the pitch is lower? And I know that you've been strictly following pitch relevancy, so it seems odd to exclude this one instance from it.
I actually want to make the stair going lower and lower,(like 5K & above) but nvm, i will move it.
II
[Easy]
02:35:945 (155945|1,156106|2) - Definitely wouldn't use this for an easy because it's too fast for the player to read and comprehend, then move to execute the pattern properly. Might just stick with making 02:35:570 (155570|2) - an LN or something to represent the sound.
After thinking more and more, i got another idea, and here i solved it with a really short 1/4 rather than using 1/8 and 1/4
(just fixing this, require me to delete total of 6 notes, 6 SB sound note, adding 6 new notes, and 6 new SB sound note)



00:25:500 - to 00:30:428 - I didnt mention this the last time it occurred once before this, but you have got to watch out for your hand balance here. Column 2 goes unused for five seconds at a time, and Im not just going to chalk it up to pitch relevancy as that's something that I believe should not get in the way of playability and overall chart friendliness to a newer player.
00:54:856 - to 00:58:499 - Now col 1 is pretty empty for a while. I'd try to keep your vacant columns lasting only 2 seconds and less preferably so that there's still some semblance of hand balance.
01:16:713 - to 01:19:284 - Similar thing to the above. Gonna stop mentioning these now, but I'd really consider rebalancing some of them.

Again, for my pattern, and for playability, it wont be a problem, but i still try to see if i can change or move them while having the pattern,
....
but no, i still keep it the same, as they dont repeat too much
III
[Normal]
00:33:267 (33267|2,33428|3,33642|2) - This is a bit difficult to follow due to the uneven spacing between notes while also being visually similar. I would change note direction so that there's not an awkward spacing gap in col 3, like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807627
01:45:267 (105267|2,105427|3,105642|2) - Same thing as at 00:33:267 (33267|2,33428|3,33642|2) -
okay, will change them a bit.



01:17:142 - to 01:18:856 - Throughout this entire measure, col 1 isnt used T_T and I already explained the importance of hand balance in the beginner diff :c
Seriously! It doesn't even a problem to be play, if you know all of my map, i'm probably the only mapper that focusing 'hand balance' everytime, and sometimes for a super strong and good reason that i focus on 1 hand or specific column.
I know what i'm doing, :(

anyway, i change it and try to keep my pattern as good as it is.




02:05:356 - 02:05:784 - I think because the B5 is so pronounced here that it would be nice to add stacks for it, like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807642
Its okay, but i 'intentionally' skipping more 1/2 on this section, just for 4K SR


02:18:856 (138856|1,138856|2,139284|2,139284|1,139713|1,139713|2,140142|1,140142|2) - I'm modding this out of order so I already explained myself in the following diffs but basically tldr; is that this pattern puts all movement on the outer columns and all weight on the inner, making an overall unbalanced gameplay experience imo due to only ever having one concept but not the other.
thx, but no change, i will keep mine ^^
just chat me directly if you want my long reason.




00:06:803 (6803|2,6857|3) - I remember talking to Maxus before in a different map, Zanarkand Nite about using graces in low level difficulties such as the normal here and we decided that because there were instances of maps being DQed before it, not to use such fast graces. In this case, I would simply move the note here to the storyboard as it essentially plays like a triple due to the closeness to each other. The timing ends up being so small that the player can simply place it as a hand without the grace.
I prefer ask QAT directly first, this is already the 3rd Lv difficulty, i don't want to keep on mapping the same density...
this spread is a good one to add little grace before the full grace on 4th Lv (Hard) and 5th Lv (Insane)
i would like to keep it if possible.
IV
[Hard]
00:30:642 (30642|0,30696|1,30750|2,30803|3,30857|0) - Might vary this or something to make it different from 00:16:928 (16928|0,16982|1,17035|2,17089|3,17142|0) - since they all just roll the same way.
00:27:321 (27321|1,27375|2,27428|3,27428|0) - Similar suggestion to the above since 00:06:750 (6750|1,6803|2,6857|3,6857|0) - 00:13:607 (13607|1,13660|2,13714|3,13714|0) - are all the same :c
Sure, will change some of them.



01:20:570 - I feel that the pattern here is a bit too repetitive or bland, and could do with some variation. Maybe something like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807588
the repetitive make it easier to read/notice the pattern, and it's really easy to be play.
while, your suggestion doesnt have 'pattern' on it, just a well placed note.




01:57:856 (117856|0,117856|3,117963|2,118070|1,118177|0) - Might be nice to trill these since their pitch alternates and then continues descending again. Maybe a [14][3][2][3] pattern would work, like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807596
That's become 2 trill on 3 2 3 2 , and furthermore, unnecessary jacking on 01:58:499 - that doesnt have same sound.
so i really want avoid it. but tell me again if you want me to change it.



02:35:570 (155570|1) - I'd move this to a column that's different from 02:35:838 (155838|1) - because the awkward spacing between the notes is impossibly difficult to read without a column separation between them to help with the visual snap cue. Col 1 seems best in this case.
Sure~ :)



02:18:856 - You could have at least made the jumps descend a bit and make it different from the Insane without outright just removing a note and calling it a day Q_Q https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807601
no, you don't know how much struggle i FINALIZE ALL THIS 30 DIFFICULTY!
especially for, curve spread, note consistency, SR sake and so much more the reason behind WHYYYYY i did this,
its honestly all related to the other 29 difficulty and why i dont want any further mod,

unless the modder think from my point of view, like if they are the one who create this 30 difficulty and spread.
what 'can' they do for the spread?
V
[Insane]
00:30:642 (30642|1,30750|2) - Shouldn't these be jacked for pitch relevancy like you did at 00:16:928 (16928|2,17035|2) - ? Even if not, I'd suggest inverting the pattern so that it goes 1-2-4-3 instead as I think this is easier to hit because it flows the way your fingers would naturally roll as opposed to going against it.
As you can see, when you want a pattern variation, and still think about 'is it going to be weird?' , 'rip pitch?' , 'is it fun'
etc etc, anyway sure, will change to 1-2-4-3




00:33:267 (33267|2) - I'm probably going to get shot for asking this but is there a way you could edit the mp3 to have this start at 00:33:285 - on the 1/3 instead? Currently, the 3/8 rhythm is really hard to understand intuitively and it simply feels awkward going from that to a clean 1/2 at 00:33:428 (33428|3,33642|2) - .
I personally can, and have the power to create the mp3 again..
1) is it the only concern? if yes, i wont change it. (It's a correct arrangement, and the note is not really hard imo)
2) it will make me have to work so much harder, to redo every 30difficulty.





00:40:928 (40928|2,41142|2,41356|2,41570|2,41784|2) - I think this is a bit of an unnecessary stack tbh. Like, the BPM is only 140 but it creates a right hand bias which is noticeable while playing. It'd be better to try and balance out the notes instead imo.
K, i can change this section to get the right pitch.



00:45:856 (45856|1,45856|2) - I believe this jump should be different from the one used at 00:45:642 (45642|1,45642|2) - since that's the kind of pattern and structure found through this build up going into the kiai.
i change it to 34 now, (thou it looks a bit, weird, just a bit, but ok... since it has more good point changing it this way.
like a plus point on 'pitch' and '2 note side by side' pattern.

00:50:999 (50999|0,50999|1) - same suggestion as at 00:45:856 (45856|2,45856|1) -
changed, notice the differenes? this is why if possible, i dont want to change anything more now.

00:52:499 (52499|1,52713|1,52927|1,53142|1) - *stack intensifies*
should not be a problem
see, if you change them, you cant get the 'plus' point of
-the piano pattern on this section is '2 note side by side' pattern




00:49:713 (49713|2,49927|2,50142|2,50356|2,50570|2) - again, another long stack.
nope, changing this will break the good point of 'consistency note', 'pitch positioning' and etc.
Also, as you can try, this is still consider super easy 140BPM 1/2, things like this wont give a mindblock



01:05:999 (65999|2,65999|3,66213|3,66213|2) - I would wait to stack these until 01:06:856 - where the kick actually becomes repeated. So maybe you could spread the notes out instead like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807419
Good, i got your point, i will avoid that stack, and keep it for the kick,
NOPE, i will change it with my way while keeping the 'side by side' note >w<
it's sad that this 'side by side' note pattern is the only noticeable pattern on 4K
(while i dont want to use short LN on this section)




00:58:713 (58713|2,58927|2,59142|2,59356|2,59570|2) - I think the capped 1/4 triplet here would be easier to hit if there wasn't so much weight on the right hand. I'd try something like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8806030
^^ , i know you are trying so hard to help.... ah
but no, as you can see i would love to keep those side by side pattern,
it might looks harder on 4K, BUT THIS IS JUST how the world is... on 4K
things will be different on the same section same difficulty on 5 6 7 8 9 K
you will completely know what im doing.






01:08:142 - I don't really know why this is a quad when it's just a snare + piano. It seems like you've only used quads for crashes such as the ones at kiai starts and ends, so I think in this case, the note should be a hand. Also, follow consistency with 02:06:427 -
01:08:356 - no sound like 02:06:642 - , can't even consistent it ^^
those quad is to match the other 5 Insane diff. Furthermore for the break 1/1




01:57:642 (117642|2,117856|2,118070|2,118284|2,118499|2) - Lots of stacks here in the dense jump burst. I'd try this instead https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807545
02:04:499 - Similar thing here but there are no stacks. Rather, it's the direction flow I'm concerned about as it turns on the right hand and never on the left,
making it a bit more strained on col 3 and 4. I'd do this instead https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807549
Oh that, sure, i can repattern them




02:18:856 (138856|2,138856|1,139070|1,139070|2,139284|1,139284|2,139499|1,139499|2,139713|2,139713|1,139927|2,139927|1,140142|2,140142|1) - Not really a fan of this. At all because of the fact that it changes direction every half beat, and puts all the weight in col 2 and 3 but the movement is always in 1 and 4. I'd try this instead then https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807560
i see, im not fan of 'that' pattern as well. BUT i'm a fan of something that has 'pattern' ^^
nowadays i hate something that doesn't have pattern, it's way too easy to map(for me), you just need to think of the playability
so yeah, if possible, i would add them all 'Playability > Pattern > Pitch'

For example regarding of this matter, i have another variation

But this one is 'Pattern > Playability > Pitch' as priority

anyway i will keep it first unless i could make another good pattern ^^




02:29:142 (149142|3,149999|2,150427|3) - I think it'd be nice to mirror this with 02:27:427 (147427|0,147856|1,148713|1) - , so the first timestamp sent would look like this https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8807568 . I also think it's easier to hit this way due to the earlier release being on the inner columns as opposed to outer.
Sure, i change it by keep the correct pitch as possible.



02:42:856 - Just a comment that I think it's a bit odd to discontinue the full LNs here and use a wider mix of short notes and long notes now.
actually i'm reducing the inverse LN density bit by bit here until normal note. That's the idea.


While the mapset is cool and all, you really gotta work on the hand balance vs pitch relevancy because there's often times places in the chart where one column is completely unused for measures at a time, even in sections with plenty going on in the music.
Really hope you take a quick look for 5 6 7 8 9, from the same difficulty and see how 'SMALL' is the world of 4K
Thanks for the check >w<)o
Imagine Blaze
Now that this map is allowing for loved... I still prefer it to be ranked...
Topic Starter
LordRaika
My God...

i didn't know this until someone told me about this...
Aaaa , rip being inactive...

yeah, i still prefer this one going for rank thou, but well...
if community decide so...
then so be it
matrix2008
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