razavana wrote:

Play the same difficulty twice, once with HR and once with DT, now tell me which one is harder.

agreed

it's not that one dimensional but ofc everyone will say hr is harder

Rest of the thread is tldr for me right now so this response might be the same as someone elses, but obviously, on the same map, dt alone is gonna be objectively harder than hr alone.

At the same starcount though, this is where things shift. Some might be fast enough and not accurate enough so that dt is easier, some might be the other way around so that hr is easier, some might be neither, but instead balanced, and have good aim and reading, so they are better at nomod instead.

HRDT is what the cool kids play tho

cheezstik wrote:

Some might be fast enough and not accurate enough so that dt is easier[/spoiler]

You just described me. I don't know if DT "alone" on a map is enough to say it's always objectively harder. What about those HR cs6.5 maps?

Kheldragar wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

Some might be fast enough and not accurate enough so that dt is easier[/spoiler]

I don't know if DT "alone" on a map is enough to say it's always objectively harder. What about those HR cs6.5 maps?

Well if we go by objectively harder being higher starcount, then there is a possibility of HR being harder than DT, which I just tested, but I'm not sure this case exists in ranked maps right now. I edited rog unlimitation to be cs7, and HR increased the starcount to 10* (cs9.1 kek) while DT increased it to 9*, the massive starcount jump comes from the fact that the streams which were previously circles touching each other are now so small that there is space in between each circle. I tried the same with cs6, and HR wasn't higher starcount than dt in this case. In irre's ranked cs7 maps, DT raises the starcount above HR.

Tl;dr DT alone will raise the starcount above HR alone 99.69% of the time.

bigfeh wrote:

razavana wrote:

Play the same difficulty twice, once with HR and once with DT, now tell me which one is harder.

the world doesn't work like that, it was a general question

Im not trying to be an ass but how else can we objectively discuss the difficulty of the two mods if not on the same map?

There is no accurate general answer. HR is more difficult on some maps than DT, where DT sometimes makes original map easier to play, etc. It's subjective to each player. But the more difficult map gets, the harder it is to play with DT, because of increased BPM.

As far as I know, the same map with dt is much harder than with hr. However, when two different maps with the mods respectively that are the same star rating, the one with hr is generally harder.

DT in general increases star diff much higher for a some good reasons. It directly impacts the pace of a song by bpm alteration. It proportionallly decreases the window in which a hit is registered as 300/100/50 as HR and past AR9 it has a higher impact on AR/OD than HR.

HR will "only" increase OD and AR up to 10 while DT can manipulate these stats past that point up to 11.

The only situation where I could think of HR being more challenging for one specific beat map is when circle size already is fairly small(5 and higher) before nomod, the AR is below 9, OD is around 8 - 8.5 and the dt bpm wouldnt surpass ~200.

Some of these conditions for this particular scenario might be subjective. But so is the whole topic if you consider memorization. Someone who perfectly memorizes a map without mods "only" requires to increase all his speed parameters (reading, tapping, cursor movement) to play the same map with dt. This doesnt work with HR.

If your question is what should be rewarded more then I would be inclined to say HR. Simply because DT and HT alter the sound quality in a negative way which ruins the whole experience for me and doesn't work with the whole concept of enjoying music in a rhythm based game. Again a very subjective personal opinion noone will actually care about in this community. Sadly.

You might ask the question 10 different players with totally distinctive profiles. You will get 10 different answers on that matter. Some might prefer playing acc based/aim based. Others will like to go fast. And then again You'll have those which are too proud to admit they cannot do the respective other thing and will claim their ways are more challenging or demanding and due should be rewarded much more. And then out of a sudden a wild millhiore will walk by and show you how hard EZ mod actually is. Kynan might just prefer playing really high bpm settings. thelewa is gonna rape every read intensive map. Or let's say emperorpenguin tags along and just mashes both DT and HR and wouldn't even be mad.

Bottom line. There is no one and only correct rule and answer to this question.

FL is nothing but a troll mod for cheaters. People multibox/use several monitors/perfectly memorize whole maps. But so can HD be abused in the same way.

JonQuy wrote:

As far as I know, the same map with dt is much harder than with hr. However, when two different maps with the mods respectively that are the same star rating, the one with hr is generally harder.

Sums up my post perfectly... oh well.

I'm inclined to say HR should be rewarded more than DT because you can "hurr go fast" on maps and 200pp as opposed to actually having accuracy.

Or maybe people with good acc and bad speed think the opposite.

Kheldragar wrote:

Or maybe people with good acc and bad speed think the opposite.

not maybe, that's exactly how it works, to them its just "hurr acc slow stuff" free pp
a lot of HR players are speed challenged just like a lot of DT players are acc challenged [cough YOU cough]

Infevo wrote:

DT in general increases star diff much higher for a some good reasons. It directly impacts the pace of a song by bpm alteration. It proportionallly decreases the window in which a hit is registered as 300/100/50 as HR and past AR9 it has a higher impact on AR/OD than HR.

HR will "only" increase OD and AR up to 10 while DT can manipulate these stats past that point up to 11.

AR, OD, (and I know you didn't mention this last one, but...) HP aren't taken into account when calculating starcount. Obviously the first two affect pp gain, but the starcount will be the same at every value.

Riince wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

Or maybe people with good acc and bad speed think the opposite.

not maybe, that's exactly how it works, to them its just "hurr acc slow stuff" free pp
a lot of HR players are speed challenged just like a lot of DT players are acc challenged [cough YOU cough]

I am 4% a DT player, thank you very much. Nomod is life.

Kheldragar wrote:

Nomod is life.

Nomod best mod.

pp farmers aren't going fast, even the top players don't go past ~250bpm with their best friends/whatever farming.
DT is just a tool for OD9.

Farming 200-250pp scores is pretty easy on DT, but I'm not sure how easy the progression to farming 300pp scores will be. It's probably necessary to learn AR10.3 to get these scores, and I feel HR will probably be easier for achieving these scores early on.

Riince wrote:

Kheldragar wrote:

Or maybe people with good acc and bad speed think the opposite.

not maybe, that's exactly how it works, to them its just "hurr acc slow stuff" free pp
a lot of HR players are speed challenged just like a lot of DT players are acc challenged [cough YOU cough]

Yep, Riince is right. (I had to say it)

I'm horribly speed challenged but my acc is good whenever I can keep up

then again I don't play HR sooooo :/

Mahoganytooth wrote:

Yep, Riince is right. (I had to say it)

I'm horribly speed challenged but my acc is good whenever I can keep up

then again I don't play HR sooooo :/

Dude why the fuck would you do that? Why would you say such a thing?

But Riince was right :/

Riince is only sometimes right :^)

DT is for scrubs who want to get into the top #10,000 really fast and have little skill when it comes to actual hard nomod maps. HR is super hard if you can't handle the AR, if you can it's really easy. In my opinion HR is a lot harder, maybe that's cause I can't handle the high AR.

but the AR is the easiest part...

nomod is for noobs who have little skill when it comes to actual hard high ar :^)

"High AR" is anything above 10 and I don't believe HR goes above 10. Lower AR is so much harder. AR10 even makes some maps easier.

Riince wrote:

but the AR is the easiest part...

nomod is for noobs who have little skill when it comes to actual hard high ar :^)

I feel like your joking, but I can't tell because it's the internet...

EDIT: When I mean high AR I'm saying 9.8+ my favourite is around 9.4, anything a lot lower is too slow.

Riince wrote:

nomod is for noobs who have little skill when it comes to actual hard high ar :^)

As a noob who can't read anything above AR8 I can confirm this is true.

NinjaNick wrote:

Riince wrote:

but the AR is the easiest part...

nomod is for noobs who have little skill when it comes to actual hard high ar :^)

I feel like your joking, but I can't tell because it's the internet...

riince is just a massive trashtalker, don't mind him. Though if you really can't read at least AR9.6 you sux

and on another note, are you new? Welcome to hell

NinjaNick wrote:

Riince wrote:

but the AR is the easiest part...

nomod is for noobs who have little skill when it comes to actual hard high ar :^)

I feel like your joking, but I can't tell because it's the internet...

EDIT: When I mean high AR I'm saying 9.8+ my favourite is around 9.4, anything a lot lower is too slow.

Play more Ar10 because it's really not that high. When you move from 10 to 10.3 that's a massive jump imo.

Of course I don't play 10.3

bigfeh wrote:

riince is just a massive trashtalker, don't mind him.l

m8 did you even read what he said above my post? it was a warranted response

NinjaNick wrote:

DT is for scrubs who want to get into the top #10,000 really fast and have little skill when it comes to actual hard nomod maps. HR is super hard if you can't handle the AR, if you can it's really easy. In my opinion HR is a lot harder, maybe that's cause I can't handle the high AR.

What makes HR hard is the OD :C

Riince wrote:

bigfeh wrote:

riince is just a massive trashtalker, don't mind him.l

m8 did you even read what he said above my post? it was a warranted response

I hadn't, sorry

Now that I come to think of it I should've done the same

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

What makes the OD hard is HR :C

fixed

[ Momiji ] wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

What makes the OD hard is HR :C

fixed

NO

DT is harder imo, and narrill a prominent HR player has said the same thing but hes slow as a snail so that might be why.

I wouldn't say that, you still need to be fast enough to read > 180 bpm ar10
and low ranked people used to accuse people of memorizing ar10 maps

And yes nomods are for snails like me

And once you are good with ar10, you can DT some ar8.2 - 8.7 maps
Generally DT would be harder than HR
But top ranks with HR only are harder to come by (mainly because of that OD mentioned in the previous posts whichever sounds right lol)

with the exception of
cs6 and above: hr is harder
bpm<150 hr is harder
as mentioned by silmarilen

and also a lot of slider breaks depending on the beatmap of course

Riince wrote:

that said DT is harder imo, and narrill a prominent HR player has said the same thing, but hes slow as a snail so that might be why.

Aha, a misquote!

What I meant when I said DT was harder is that the same map will be harder with DT than it is with HR. This should be obvious, a 50% increase in speed is monstrous. That doesn't mean that DT is harder than HR as a metagame, it just means the mod itself adds more difficulty than HR does.

The moral of the story is that maining DT isn't any harder than maining HR. It can't be, the player's skill is the global bottleneck, and that bottleneck will, without fail, limit the difficulty of whatever routine you employ to your skill. Maining one mod over another will only affect the proportions in which your skills develop, it will not affect the overall rate of advancement. The better option is to not main any mod, but rather play all of them relatively equally. This will build your skills in roughly equal amounts, and the fact that you're jumping between different play styles so often will actually train you to be good at jumping between play styles, which is something that you will not train if you play one mod combination exclusively.

Also, you guys really don't want to start another AR debate. I'll start dropping text bombs indiscriminately until I'm the only one left.

HR+DT>DT>HR

Narrill wrote:

Riince wrote:

that said DT is harder imo, and narrill a prominent HR player has said the same thing, but hes slow as a snail so that might be why.

Aha, a misquote!

What I meant when I said DT was harder is that the same map will be harder with DT than it is with HR. This should be obvious, a 50% increase in speed is monstrous. That doesn't mean that DT is harder than HR as a metagame, it just means the mod itself adds more difficulty than HR does.

The moral of the story is that maining DT isn't any harder than maining HR. It can't be, the player's skill is the global bottleneck, and that bottleneck will, without fail, limit the difficulty of whatever routine you employ to your skill. Maining one mod over another will only affect the proportions in which your skills develop, it will not affect the overall rate of advancement. The better option is to not main any mod, but rather play all of them relatively equally. This will build your skills in roughly equal amounts, and the fact that you're jumping between different play styles so often will actually train you to be good at jumping between play styles, which is something that you will not train if you play one mod combination exclusively.

Also, you guys really don't want to start another AR debate. I'll start dropping text bombs indiscriminately until I'm the only one left.

Tl;dr:

i was about to say, it wasnt a misquote at all, even if the intent behind the quote was different than what he conveyed

Narrill wrote:

Riince wrote:

that said DT is harder imo, and narrill a prominent HR player has said the same thing, but hes slow as a snail so that might be why.

Aha, a misquote!

What I meant when I said DT was harder is that the same map will be harder with DT than it is with HR. This should be obvious, a 50% increase in speed is monstrous. That doesn't mean that DT is harder than HR as a metagame, it just means the mod itself adds more difficulty than HR does.

The moral of the story is that maining DT isn't any harder than maining HR. It can't be, the player's skill is the global bottleneck, and that bottleneck will, without fail, limit the difficulty of whatever routine you employ to your skill. Maining one mod over another will only affect the proportions in which your skills develop, it will not affect the overall rate of advancement. The better option is to not main any mod, but rather play all of them relatively equally. This will build your skills in roughly equal amounts, and the fact that you're jumping between different play styles so often will actually train you to be good at jumping between play styles, which is something that you will not train if you play one mod combination exclusively.

Also, you guys really don't want to start another AR debate. I'll start dropping text bombs indiscriminately until I'm the only one left.

Narril is right.

Riince wrote:

i was about to say, it wasnt a misquote at all, even if the intent behind the quote was different than what he conveyed

You're right, misquote is the wrong term. It was out of context.

cheezstik wrote:

Tl;dr:

CHEEZYCHEEZYCHEEZY hi

I can't believe this is an actual question...

On a serious note, it really depends on the map and if it is DTable. In general, HR is harder because of the OD.