JudgeTheDude wrote:

Everybody should have equal chances to have BN mods.

You are focusing too much in equality here. People failed to achieve equality in real life after millions of attempts, do you think it's possible in a video game?

For this to work a bit more fairly, the way kudosu is handed out needs to be more disciplined. Right now if I really want, I could just throw out fkload of tiny mods that doesn't really help the mapset to improve a bit and get kudosu for it. My point is that 20~25 kudosu is not much as you think, if you want to further abuse the system, you can look out for maps that weren't modded for 2 weeks, throw some logical looking mod and get 2 kds. Repeat 10 times, bam 20 kds.

If we really want to push this forward, we really need some solid data on average time taken for useful/well thought out mods or mods where we could tell effort was made in it (this one is too dangerously subjective though, but the whole kds system is subjective as well) and balance out the actual kudosu cost.

tl;dr: My point is that trying to build a fair/equality promoting system on top of a subjective reward system ain't the best shot at this.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

What is that Disqualification thing ? Maps getting out of the Qualified pool ? In that case, that would mean the BNs who nominated didn't really check the map, and Qualified too soon. It has nothing to do with the mapper, if it's as I supposed before. The BNs could just have modded and told what was wrong, and helped the mapper improve his map.

This is where you've gone wrong. The BN is responsible for checking the map for unrankable issues, but the presence of these issues has everything to do with the mapper, as it is the mapper that caused them in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Lally wrote:

for what do we have modding queues then? yes in this case is hard to get to it but not for all BNs =_=

Queues are always filled to the top. And when they open, it's a matter of seconds before they are filled again, mostly by other BNs and Elite Mappers having priority over newcomers.

That's just more experienced mappers knowing they have to check queues often and working harder to spend the time to do so. If you spent as much time refreshing or checking queues as they did you'd get your fair share of first-come-first-served slots too, there's no priority involved.

xxdeathx wrote:

The BN is responsible for checking the map for unrankable issues

No, they are responsible for making sure maps are in best condition. Whether they live up to their responsibilities is to each his own.

What standard of map quality/condition they want to icon is up to themselves, but the map's only gonna get dqed if it's unrankable or really bad. That's the responsibility I meant.

why you want to rush BN to check your map? to deserve your map into Qualification Section is HARD
if you want some shitposted by BN ok then, damn son
Also, if BN don't like your song, BN still want to check/mod yours? lel

edit:

baraatje123 wrote:

Genocide, that is an invalid comparison
Why?
For CtB mode for example, there are BN which are busy, thus not modding
There are BN who have queues, which are 24/7 closed
There are BN who take requests, only for songs they like
There are BN who only take requests from Ranked mappers, so that the map is at least of decent quality
This is already everyone from the CtB BN
If you don't apply to any of these 5 categories, you can NEVER get a CtB map/mapset ranked, or even bubbled
This at least makes sure there is a CtB BN who'll look at it
It may not be the best idea, but it's still helpful and neccessary due to herefor mentioned problem

nope, BN haves a choose to mod / bub / rank

xxdeathx wrote:

ikin5050 wrote:

Good idea, but then you need some guaruntee that a BN will mod it if you 'purchase' such a star

I have no good ideas either. we don't care about kudosu and I can't see a monthly quota working out for 100 BN unless there are enough of these requests out there.

also some of those high SP problem maps are ignored by people for a reason, such as the map quality is low or song is really bad, and no one should be forced to spend a good chunk of their time modding something they don't like.

I'm agree with death's quote

and kudos only for modding not to summon BN to mod our map

xxdeathx wrote:

JudgeTheDude wrote:

What is that Disqualification thing ? Maps getting out of the Qualified pool ? In that case, that would mean the BNs who nominated didn't really check the map, and Qualified too soon. It has nothing to do with the mapper, if it's as I supposed before. The BNs could just have modded and told what was wrong, and helped the mapper improve his map.

This is where you've gone wrong. The BN is responsible for checking the map for unrankable issues, but the presence of these issues has everything to do with the mapper, as it is the mapper that caused them in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

That's just more experienced mappers knowing they have to check queues often and working harder to spend the time to do so. If you spent as much time refreshing or checking queues as they did you'd get your fair share of first-come-first-served slots too, there's no priority involved.

What I've meant is that if a BN puts a map as Qualified, and an other BN finds an urankable issue in it, the BN is as responsible as the mapper for letting this error stay. And what I also meant is that BNs do Qualify the maps. My point here was to explain why it would be better to only let them disqualify maps, just as the Ranking v2 should do.

And about the queues, I spend 2 to 3 hours per day looking at the queues and refresh them, but all the time I posted in the modding queues of BNs, I got ignored, or it was full in some seconds, and since I only have a single ranked map, I can't apply to most of those queues anyway.

Genocide wrote:

why you want to rush BN to check your map? to deserve your map into Qualification Section is HARD
if you want some shitposted by BN ok then, damn son
Also, if BN don't like your song, BN still want to check/mod yours? lel

edit:

nope, BN haves a choose to mod / bub / rank

My point is that even if it's stated in the rules that BN can choose what they mod, it shouldn't be everytime like this, they should also mod other maps. Do you think mappers that have a lot of BN friends and have the possibility to improve have more right to be in the Qualified section than mappers ignored by the BN ? I don't think so.

BNs can choose to mod/bub/rank, but I'll say it again, it's unfair for those who haven't got friends in the BN or haven't got a reputation yet. When you have so much rules in the BN queues preventing non-elite mappers to submit their maps, then there is a huge issue, and change is needed.

Niko-nyan wrote:

I'm agree with death's quote

and kudos only for modding not to summon BN to mod our map

Well, kudos for Star Priority are completely useless, since Star Priority is useless. So this feature should at least put some usefulness in it. I agree it won't give any advantage to Elite Mappers and BNs, but they don't need any. It's aimed towards newcomers who can't get modded by Bns because they don't have ranked maps, or they just don't have friends in the BN. It would allow them to improve, and have their map checked.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

What I've meant is that if a BN puts a map as Qualified, and an other BN finds an urankable issue in it, the BN is as responsible as the mapper for letting this error stay. And what I also meant is that BNs do Qualify the maps. My point here was to explain why it would be better to only let them disqualify maps, just as the Ranking v2 should do.

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...
it's not just mapper who get the negative stuff from DQed... the BNs also get penalty point
i'm new at mapping too, and asking BNs is the hardest part of getting your map ranked cycle. so the key for this is.... make sure your map is decent first. then ask BNs when they absolutely not doing anything urgent.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

And about the queues, I spend 2 to 3 hours per day looking at the queues and refresh them, but all the time I posted in the modding queues of BNs, I got ignored, or it was full in some seconds, and since I only have a single ranked map, I can't apply to most of those queues anyway.

why don't try forum PM instead? some is open checking via forum PM. tho it's just about lucky your map get noticed or not... but at least it get more attention cause you ask it directly.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

My point is that even if it's stated in the rules that BN can choose what they mod, it shouldn't be everytime like this, they should also mod other maps. Do you think mappers that have a lot of BN friends and have the possibility to improve have more right to be in the Qualified section than mappers ignored by the BN ? I don't think so.

BNs can choose to mod/bub/rank, but I'll say it again, it's unfair for those who haven't got friends in the BN or haven't got a reputation yet. When you have so much rules in the BN queues preventing non-elite mappers to submit their maps, then there is a huge issue, and change is needed.

why don't try at least known by the BNs, BNs is on every channel. they are all friendly, moreover Osu! is a community, not single-man game.
i've much BNs friend... but it's still hard to find who is free to rank my map

Patient is the key

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Patient is the key

=w=)b

Lust wrote:

Everybody starts somewhere. Nobody looking at your map? Then mod to become a BN yourself and then mod for mod with the others once you do. Its not like the nominators are a closed group, work hard to hit that modder score and gain attention for your own work! It all builds up and certainly doesn't happen over night

lolwut? Was that "do you want your map modded? Become BN first!" kind of statement? Just ubelieveable...

You can have all my stars for the idea

It is a absolute pain in the ass to get mods (bn especially, but for other modes than std it is hard to get good mods anyways)
it would be great if there was a way to actually get BN to look at your map, but we can't take away Bn freedom

paradox? i think so

How about we just pay more attention to starting mappers, let's say, at least as much as to experienced mappers. from experienced mappers you know you'll be getting quality, whereas with starting mappers you should help them to have their maps become quality

You can't force a BN to mod specific maps so it won't help if you throw BN tokens a them tons of times. It will be about as ineffective as throwing lots of mod requests at the BN.

Novalogic wrote:

lolwut? Was that "do you want your map modded? Become BN first!" kind of statement? Just ubelieveable...

You can have all my stars for the idea

i'll try to say what lust want to say

as long as you still modding (doing m4m in this case) you can get to BN more closely. after you get point of modding you can become BNs...

dude... why don't you literate them ;w;

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...
it's not just mapper who get the negative stuff from DQed... the BNs also get penalty point
i'm new at mapping too, and asking BNs is the hardest part of getting your map ranked cycle. so the key for this is.... make sure your map is decent first. then ask BNs when they absolutely not doing anything urgent.

Well, the "decent map" part isn't a real argument. BNs can't know if it's good or bad without checking it. So it implies they checked it in the first place.

Arcubin wrote:

why don't try forum PM instead? some is open checking via forum PM. tho it's just about lucky your map get noticed or not... but at least it get more attention cause you ask it directly.

Already did that a lot. I managed to get an answer yesterday, for the first time in my 3 years of mapping. Looking at that awful ratio, I can say that it's not a very effective method, because most of the time you won't even get an answer.

Arcubin wrote:

why don't try at least known by the BNs, BNs is on every channel. they are all friendly, moreover Osu! is a community, not single-man game.
i've much BNs friend... but it's still hard to find who is free to rank my map

Osu shouldn't be about getting the highest relations possible to have better chances to enjoy the game. I love to play, I love to map, but I don't like to spend time talking to people who mostly (not all) see themselves above the others because of their rank.

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Patient is the key

Well, do you spend 2 years trying to rank a simple map, but can't because BN/BAT ignore your requests ? I don't think so. Yes, one of my maps is 2 years old.

Nwolf wrote:

You can't force a BN to mod specific maps so it won't help if you throw BN tokens a them tons of times. It will be about as ineffective as throwing lots of mod requests at the BN.

As I already stated, we shouldn't do that, normally. But looking at how new mappers are ignored, it may be a necessity. These mappers need Bns to improve their mapping, but get ignored by BNs because they aren't as good as Elite Mappers.

Arcubin wrote:

Novalogic wrote:

lolwut? Was that "do you want your map modded? Become BN first!" kind of statement? Just ubelieveable...

You can have all my stars for the idea

i'll try to say what lust want to say

as long as you still modding (doing m4m in this case) you can get to BN more closely. after you get point of modding you can become BNs...

dude... why don't you literate them ;w;

You still don't change that fact that Lust clearly said that to be ranked, you need to be a BN. Modding has nothing to do with that, since Kudosus are useless and don't help mappers in any way. And lots of BN clearly state in their queue, that you can M4M them, but it won't guarantee a mod in return (I don't have any example right now, I'm trying to fin the 2 BN queues where I saw that, and will post them once I've got them).

So, if you're not an Elite Mapper or a BN, even M4Ming a BN won't help you.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...
it's not just mapper who get the negative stuff from DQed... the BNs also get penalty point
i'm new at mapping too, and asking BNs is the hardest part of getting your map ranked cycle. so the key for this is.... make sure your map is decent first. then ask BNs when they absolutely not doing anything urgent.

Well, the "decent map" part isn't a real argument. BNs can't know if it's good or bad without checking it. So it implies they checked it in the first place. I actually really agree with Arcubin here. I'd much rather spend my time modding a mapset I feel comfortable icon'ing, rather than modding some first-try maps, which are full of issues and probably need a remap or two. Making your map decent before asking BNs to icon it is in my eyes common sense..

appleeaterx wrote:

Well, the "decent map" part isn't a real argument. BNs can't know if it's good or bad without checking it. So it implies they checked it in the first place. I actually really agree with Arcubin here. I'd much rather spend my time modding a mapset I feel comfortable icon'ing, rather than modding some first-try maps, which are full of issues and probably need a remap or two. Making your map decent before asking BNs to icon it is in my eyes common sense..

Following your logic, that means someone who has no ranked maps can't be checked by a BN, because it'll always be a "first try" map, who won't have any advice given by a BN. So, it will never be able to get ranked. I agree that a map should have a decent quality, but how can it have one if you can only be modded by low-rank modders ?

You need BN mods to see what are the real issues in your map, and following your logic, it means having had BN mods before, which is impossible, following your logic.

I said that I prefer / rather not, not that I refuse to mod maps from new mappers. I do mod maps made by mappers with no ranked maps, but the chances me doing that is much lower for the reason I said earlier.

appleeaterx wrote:

I said that I prefer / rather not, not that I refuse to mod maps from new mappers. I do mod maps made by mappers with no ranked maps, but the chances me doing that is much lower for the reason I said earlier.

I understand you want to mod maps that you know will be good, but how is that useful for the community ?

I mod all kinds of maps, but the issue I have with this feature is the expectation the mapper might get for summoning the BN. They used up Kudos to get a BN to look at their map, but that does not mean that the map is good enough for any sort of icon, then in a sense that mapper might feel he had wasted that because the map is just not up to they expectation.

Another thing is about how they then 'summon'. How are the requests going to split up? How will it be spread evenly, how can mode-specific mapsets get the BNs who are more familiar with that mode? I am pretty sure Taiko and possibly CtB have the least number of BNs who are willing to mod those modes and if they get so many requests, how is that fair, when comparing to eg. Standard.

Because of this forced 'summon', it just puts more workload on them really, this is why everything should be done willingly, and the system should be kept that way

neonat wrote:

I mod all kinds of maps, but the issue I have with this feature is the expectation the mapper might get for summoning the BN. They used up Kudos to get a BN to look at their map, but that does not mean that the map is good enough for any sort of icon, then in a sense that mapper might feel he had wasted that because the map is just not up to they expectation.

Another thing is about how they then 'summon'. How are the requests going to split up? How will it be spread evenly, how can mode-specific mapsets get the BNs who are more familiar with that mode? I am pretty sure Taiko and possibly CtB have the least number of BNs who are willing to mod those modes and if they get so many requests, how is that fair, when comparing to eg. Standard.

Because of this forced 'summon', it just puts more workload on them really, this is why everything should be done willingly, and the system should be kept that way

I don't propose this feature for mappers to expect an icon. It's for them to have the point of view of someone who is experienced in mapping, and can, if the maps deserves it, icon it. Even if the mapper doesn't get the icon, he gets a mod with explanations on why and how he can improve his map, and what were the issues with it. Problem is that new mappers are stuck getting advice by other new mappers, so in the end, they don't improve a bit.

I was proposing a Mode-Specific system, because I know that some people only play/mod/map certain modes, and it would be really stupid to have a CtB BN having to mod a Taiko map. It's pure nonsense and so it was also specified (at least I think it was, I'm not sure anymore). If they get too much request, that means we need more Bns. Simple as that, that would reduce the workload of the few BNs of the specified mode, and allow more people to have a chance to be checked by a BN, looking at the increased number of Nominators.

If we keep the system as it is now, we will barely have new mappers, and barely have variety in our maps. Because the Bns will focus only on specified genres that they love, and so less liked genres will simply not be approved, even if the maps are good. And if we keep the current system, newcomers will always have huge problems to get their maps checked.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

If they get too much request, that means we need more Bns. Simple as that, that would reduce the workload of the few BNs of the specified mode, and allow more people to have a chance to be checked by a BN, looking at the increased number of Nominators.

This isn't something as simple as just getting more. If it was that easy, there would already be more modding for CtB and Taiko, but that is not the case.

This is also still quite a easy-way-out solution for them, I would rather they try to integrate themselves into the community and get to more know more ppl and get mods from interaction, and not just from a press of a button.

You also make it sound like BNs don't bother checking new mapper maps

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Following your logic, that means someone who has no ranked maps can't be checked by a BN, because it'll always be a "first try" map, who won't have any advice given by a BN. So, it will never be able to get ranked. I agree that a map should have a decent quality, but how can it have one if you can only be modded by low-rank modders ?

You need BN mods to see what are the real issues in your map, and following your logic, it means having had BN mods before, which is impossible, following your logic.

wow... why don't read ranking criteria then? it's list all the issues that unrankable...
2lazy4read?

edit : also, most of new mapper is too scared to ask BNs directly...
ask them nicely is a good idea. if they can't... don't force them

the summoning ritual has been thwarted

Arcubin wrote:

ask them nicely is a good idea. if they won't... give up on mapping

fixed

BNs are Robot \w/
fixed
BNs are can do any request anytime anyplace
fixed

This is why we have a mentor system sign up as a mentee if you want to learn we do have a quota to meet up and most of the time a lot of us are really busy to spend 3 hours on a map that needs a lot of work. why don't you ask QATs aswell they have the power to icon and they are much more experienced then BNs so they will be more helpful.
1 As a BN I love to help new mappers but honestly its new mappers most of the time don't understand most concepts I tell them because they are too new to mapping that's why I usually suggest they get modders who are the same level as them to slowly let them learn there way around the editor and mapping. Its best not to rush your maps and if a BN mods a map super earlier you would most likely get overwhelmed by all the new concepts you suddenly have to understand. I mean we are talking about new mappers correct.
2 don't make our services as if they are some sort of prize that you earn through modding we aren't there to congratulate you for modding maps with a mod by us. If you seriously want to mod only to get a mod by us why are you modding in the first place. don't be a hypocriteand say that we should be helping the community all the time when your only modding to help yourself
3 I mod to help mappers but we have quotas to meet and we have a IRL work to do. We are very busy why would you want to make our life even more busy by putting on a mandated modding policy that's just stupid.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

You still don't change that fact that Lust clearly said that to be ranked, you need to be a BN.

You're probably misinterpreting what Lust meant. it's not that "you have to be BN to get a map ranked", but "if you don't like the fact that BNs don't mod newcomers' maps, then become a BN and help solving the issue yourself".

Anyhow, Just to state something again: as a BN, you're already "forced" to mod maps to uphold a quota, if such a summoning system were in place, the current quota can just be changed to require 1 mod on a map that has requested for a BN summon: this still would mean you're free to choose, but you have to pick from a more limited set of maps, and will give newcomers a better chance of getting a BN mod, if you limit the amount of nominations of maps for this. My other post is here: p/3947371 .

The other thing is the fact that with as many BNs as we have now, and the vast majority having differing rules, being busy, or don't want to look at newcomers' maps, it's an awful lot of "mod my map please" PM spamming to every BN in the game, and it's not realistic to expect them to PM every single BN in the hopes of someone accepting their request. With some system (doesn't have to be this. If the star system worked, that would be sufficient already) that makes it simpler to request for BN attention, will make the life of these new mappers much easier.

Also, it seems like a lot of BNs don't really like this suggestion in itself, but I'm sure many of you will admit that it can be hard to get attention from BNs for new mappers, and that the best way to improve on mapping is to get a good mod. If you agree on that, instead of just denying the idea outright, try coming up with other alternatives that could solve the problem, while still keeping you happy?

And I think Lust mentioned something similar will be implemented for Modding v2, so it's not like you won't have to deal with it sooner or later. Why not try to find a good solution now to make sure whatever is going into modding v2 can draw inspiration from that if needed?

Novalogic wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

ask them nicely is a good idea. if they won't... give up on mapping

fixed

kinda pesimist and like coward answer.

just Brave!, and don't give up

[ S a k u r a ] wrote:

Patient is the key

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...

CDFA is alien

/me runs

le fuc...

Novalogic wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

ask them nicely is a good idea. if they won't... give up on mapping

fixed

wow... man. y u so rood... it's also your choice to keep up on mapping/modding or drop your work.
my argumentation is clearly stated same like lexia there. so i won't type them again.

Fort wrote:

Arcubin wrote:

BNs is also human... 'w' and you know it...

CDFA is alien

/me runs

wut... D: since when?

tl;dr, anyway, i didn't shoot any kudosu like wtf. But i think this feature request is one of the weirdest thing to do o_o

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

Riince wrote:

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

There's always new anime seasons with openings to map :^)

Riince wrote:

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

bninanutshell.png

AutoMedic wrote:

Riince wrote:

i didnt know BN's had quotas' what happens when they run out of tv size baby bubble berry love short ver neko ignite maps? will they be forced to rank good songs?

bninanutshell.png

Spectacular generalisation right there.

Go be a BN and rank your good songs then, why sulk about it.

Stay on topic, please.

We already know that even with the raising amount of BNs, we can't cover the demand. Why? Because the system is broken (aka circlejerking), as you already know, and it's supposed to be "fixed" when modding v2 arrives.

Also, have in mind BN is a volunteer activity, this meaning you can't force any of the members to mod X or Y map, else you end with a poor mod from them.

While that happens, I highly suggest you not to reach BNs with "mod requests" (unless you know they're modding machines), but more in a friendly and uninterested way, just asking to look at your map, suggestions about parts in your map that you aren't sure of, etc, the nomination may come by itself (or not).

As for the request, I wouldn't support it, for said reasons, and you can't make sure a BN will look at your map.