Well, I didn't find anything similar, but please tell me if something similar has already been suggested and rejected.

So, I thought about making some kind of "BN Token", just as the stars the Kudosus gives to your map, and use a certain amount of Kudosus to make/send that "BN Token"

Why ?

Well, beatmapping is a huge, and essential part of Osu. A lot of maps are being released, but they usually come from the same mappers.

Not that it is a bad things, it provides quality. But I saw that most of the time, a reason why there are ranked a lot more is that BATs/BNs post more on their threads, post on their own will on them, and so the ranking process is made easier for those huge mappers.

On the other hand, most of the new mappers I had the occasion to mod had few, or none BAT/BN mods.
I don't know about them, but I asked many BNs/BATs and got replied that they were busy. And I know they are, but also their queues are filled most of the time and it makes it harder for non-great mappers to actually get BNs to look at their map, even if their maps have a lot of Kuds.

How ?

Just as the Kudosus currently give a higher priority to the maps, why not use them to request a BN's check too ? It would make several things better :

1. New mappers will have to mod a lot, and so LOOK at other peoples' mapping to have kuds
2. This modding will increase their skill, and also the overall mapping quality may increase (for new mappers)
3. Mappers will have a higher chance to see their map checked
4. The ranking process will be more fair towards mappers with a few ranked maps

The gamemodes that the player wants to be checked should also be specified with that token, to provide the mapper a BN that fits the map. (For example, avoid a STD BN having to check a O!M map)

I don't have any idea about that "BN Token" price, because I don't have any idea of the real value of their check time. But I would say at least 25 Kud to be sure they aren't spammed.

Maybe add, on the BN side, one of those :

1. Greater amount of Kuds for answering to a Token request
2. Make a quota of requests to fullfill per month (or an average percentage)

A parallel solution would be to make the Token just as "Bubbled" or "Starred" symbols. It would mark the map as "Requesting BN with a higher priority than others".

This may also lead in a new value to "rank" BNs and be able to tell if they are more open to the community or no, and so this would also increase the trust we can have in the ones who answered more Tokens. Because Kudosus can only allow mappers to judge the quantity, but not if those were helpful to all of the community or just a part.

I like it, but 20-25 are a little too much IMO
I'd say 10-15 (or up to 20, but 25 is just to much)
Or do you mean total kudosu?

I meant trading those for a "BN Token" : 15-20 Kud => 1 BN Token
Just like the current exchange rate is 1 Kud => 1 Star

So no, not the total Kudosus. Just a fixed amount that will be spent to obtain the token.

I thinks it's better to make it more like a "Purchasable item" which uses token as the money to buy it.

Ahh
That's good
Support (because I can buy 2 now probably)

Good idea, but then you need some guaruntee that a BN will mod it if you 'purchase' such a star

Well, that's the part I don't have any great answer. I know that BNs have their lives, their free time, and also their will about modding maps, so I know that even those tokens can't do 100% of the job, and that BNs won't change their behaviour in a blink, because they have constraints, and a safezone about modding.

So maybe add, on the BN side, one of those :

1. Greater amount of Kuds for answering to a Token request
2. Make a quota of requests to fullfill per month (or an average percentage)

A parallel solution would be to make the Token just as "Bubbled" or "Starred" symbols. It would mark the map as "Requesting BN with a higher priority than others".

This may also lead in a new value to "rank" BNs and be able to tell if they are more open to the community or no, and so this would also increase the trust we can have in the ones who answered more Tokens. Because Kudosus can only allow mappers to judge the quantity, but not if those were helpful to all of the community or just a part.

But I would also like a BN's opinion about this idea, to see what could be really useful for both sides.

Good idea make it please!

Well, I think we'll need a BN's opinion first

ikin5050 wrote:

Good idea, but then you need some guaruntee that a BN will mod it if you 'purchase' such a star

I have no good ideas either. we don't care about kudosu and I can't see a monthly quota working out for 100 BN unless there are enough of these requests out there.

also some of those high SP problem maps are ignored by people for a reason, such as the map quality is low or song is really bad, and no one should be forced to spend a good chunk of their time modding something they don't like.

So you say that we should keep the current state of things, where BNs mod themselves but barely mod anybody else, unless they have some great rank among mappers ?

Why can't a quota work ? It can depend on how many predicted request are submitted. Or just make a personal quota of replied request versus unreplied per BN, since I assume some request won't be answered.

That's why I suggested this. I think there would be requests, since a lot of mappers are struggling with that problem. Getting mods is easy, getting BN mods is one of the hardest things ever for a newcomer to mapping.

Problem is we need that BN validate our maps, no matter how many mods we have, or how many stars. But BNs don't mod those maps, so I suggested this to balance things between the two sides.

xxdeathx wrote:

also some of those high SP problem maps are ignored by people for a reason, such as the map quality is low or song is really bad, and no one should be forced to spend a good chunk of their time modding something they don't like.

This is my main reason. I dont want to befored upon a map I either dont like or "cant fix", as it might be the complete opposite of my style and/or unrankable itself.

Also, I think we should wait what Modding v2 has to offer. Maybe that'll give us something similar.

Also, I'd say that 15 is too low. 15 is basically nothing. Too easy to earn for a beginner and experienced players have too much http://puu.sh/gpldw/910da571fc.png
I could call myself way too many times and "take BNs away from others".

Well, even unwanted maps need to be ranked if they are ready to be. Osu should be open to all kind of musics, not only the popular touhou and anime musics (even though many other genres exist and are ranked, touhou and animes look like the most preferred genres here).

And wasn't the goal of the former MAT to help newcomers ? Since they're not here anymore, who should take their role ? The only experienced people, labelled as such, are the BNs and the QAT, so it should be part of their job too, and they shouldn't ignore newcomers, or mapping styles they dislike.

Well, I am also looking towards Modding v2, but in the end (as far as I understood about it), we'll keep a semi-BAT, so in the end, it'll be the same. Experienced modders and BAT will still mod themselves and increase the priority of their maps, by completing requests in their queues.
And even though small mappers will have some benefits, it'll still be a long process that will depend on the BATs' because they have the final decision, even though it's supposed to be automated.

I don't recall exactly the priority modificators coming from modding from your queue and having mods, but they are meaningless and the usuall ultra-modding of BAT and elite mappers between themselves will take advantage of that priority, and the situation won't change.

About the Token's cost, that why I said "I don't know" in the initial post. I though 25 (which was my first guess) was a good amount to start. yes, it won't change anything for elite mappers, who have plenty of kuds, but it'll change a lot of things for newcomers. They'll be forced to mod, and they'll be rewarded by that BAT mods that nobody except the elite mappers and BATs can get.

My goal here is to make things a bit more faire for newcomers. That's all. it won't advantage elitem appers, but they are already overly advantaged, as well as the BATs, so nothing needs to change for them (as far as I can see, looking at their beatmaps' forum subject, the short amount of time required for them to be ranked, and the huge amount of BAT mods on them)

Before answering this; This is my view. I tend to have a different view than most others, so keep that in mind.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

Well, even unwanted maps need to be ranked if they are ready to be. Osu should be open to all kind of musics, not only the popular touhou and anime musics (even though many other genres exist and are ranked, touhou and animes look like the most preferred genres here).

I agree with you here, but sadly you cant force anyone to do what they dont want to do. We've got plenty of BNs now that have different tastes. You just have to be lucky and find one that likes your music (which should not be difficult with japanese or english music for example)

JudgeTheDude wrote:

And wasn't the goal of the former MAT to help newcomers ? Since they're not here anymore, who should take their role ? The only experienced people, labelled as such, are the BNs and the QAT, so it should be part of their job too, and they shouldn't ignore newcomers, or mapping styles they dislike.

The thing is that we are far far away from what the MAT was orignially. We're not even a Team anymore. Every BN is free to do what he wants to or not, and that's what we're doing basically.
Ignoring newcomers is a thing, yes, but with the amount of new people trying to get into mapping, it might be extremely difficult to handle all of them to some extend. Either you help one person alot while a bigger amount of new mappers gets left behind - or you help a lager amount a little bit but that makes you unable to answer all the questions

JudgeTheDude wrote:

I don't recall exactly the priority modificators coming from modding from your queue and having mods, but they are meaningless and the usuall ultra-modding of BAT and elite mappers between themselves will take advantage of that priority, and the situation won't change.

I see it like this; Ofcourse, you want help friends if you can and if you know that a friend's map is already well made before modding even happened, youre more likely to drop a quick mod for him. You dont have to in-depth explain why something is wrong and you know that your friend might even drop a mod on your map himself - because that's what you did for him.
On other people's sets, you dont know whether it be a good, mediocore or bad map. Modding bad maps is not as fun as it is to mod a good map, since you have to doublecheck every singe object and make sure things fit - which they usually dont.
I'd assume thats why.

JudgeTheDude wrote:

My goal here is to make things a bit more faire for newcomers. That's all. it won't advantage elitem appers, but they are already overly advantaged, as well as the BATs, so nothing needs to change for them

Things will never really even out. If youre good at something, youre more likely to get something in return. Thats how the world works.
But here again, forcing something upon someone is a bad idea. If people knew that they'd be forced upon "bad" mapsets they dont like, they most likely wouldnt think about becoming a BN.

In the end, we just state the same things again and again.

The ranking process isn't good for the people who haven't got a reputation yet. And, in the end, it's naturally killing new mappers, because since they don't get BN modded, they can't be ranked, and by not having any map ranked, or a few, they aren't modded by Bs

The BNs can't be forced to mod (which I perfectly understand) and so usually won't mod maps from other mappers than their friends. So in the end, the system is made for BNs friends, and not the whole community. It can be easily seen by looking at most of the ranked maps. They are flooded with BAT posts, and so they are easily ranked, and they quality is improved quickly between theit submission and their rank.

We shouldn't force people to mod, but if they don't do what they are expected to do as BNs, what other choice do we have than set up a way to pay for maps being checked ? What I mean is that BN signed up, as far as i know, to nominate maps to be qualified, then ranked. I think a BN shouldn't disregard maps because they aren't from one of his friends. They are the only people able to rank maps here, and they should be fair.

Here, forcing them to mod would improve :

1. The new mappers' mapping quality by forcing them to mod in order to win kudosus, and pay for a BN check
2. The diversity of maps by making unwanted maps able to be checked
3. The ranking speed, by forcing someone actually competent in mapping to have a look at your map, instead of having a lot of not that useful mods
4. The overall number of mods with the new flow of mods coming from the newcomers wanting to earn kuds

But that's why I was looking upon a more automated system where BN/BATs or whatever won't be needed in order to validate a map, because for now, it's only killing the diversity of maps and mappers. Their job should be check if a beatmap can't be qualified, not if it should be qualified.

Looking at these replies I admit, 15 is too low
But.... It also recommends newbies to mod, which is a good thing, and gives active modders, who in most cases also are good mappers, the opportunity to get their map ranked
I hope this'll happen, to make the modders get slightly more priority than others because they help out others as well

what

JudgeTheDude wrote:

But that's why I was looking upon a more automated system where BN/BATs or whatever won't be needed in order to validate a map, because for now, it's only killing the diversity of maps and mappers. Their job should be check if a beatmap can't be qualified, not if it should be qualified.

this isn't true in the slightest, BNs control whether or not your map gets ranked. if they're something unrankable in it, anybody can see that, it's not a BNs job to find unrankable stuff in your map, you should have no unrankable stuff in your map before you go to a BN. that's the way it works.

a BNs job is not to play janitor for you

on topic, I think this is a great idea, would give a lot more use to KD since right now it seems to be overlooked a lot. I have a lot just sitting there unused

Farming kd to force peoples to mod your map ?

Just no =)


I know that how the system currently work isn't the best but what you suggest is just not a good idea.

what?!
to summoned your thread by BN, you need at least 15/30SP OR you need to ask BN to mod/check your map
very unnecessary thing this is.

Genocide, that is an invalid comparison
Why?
For CtB mode for example, there are BN which are busy, thus not modding
There are BN who have queues, which are 24/7 closed
There are BN who take requests, only for songs they like
There are BN who only take requests from Ranked mappers, so that the map is at least of decent quality
This is already everyone from the CtB BN
If you don't apply to any of these 5 categories, you can NEVER get a CtB map/mapset ranked, or even bubbled
This at least makes sure there is a CtB BN who'll look at it
It may not be the best idea, but it's still helpful and neccessary due to herefor mentioned problem

Is that similar to your request?:


t/23174

just.... just no...

BNs also have their right to do whatever he/she want. you shouldn't rush them.

Krah wrote:

Just no =)

Farming 15 kudosus isn't even that hard if someone is just modding for kudosus

rank more maps

Maeglwn wrote:

JudgeTheDude wrote:

But that's why I was looking upon a more automated system where BN/BATs or whatever won't be needed in order to validate a map, because for now, it's only killing the diversity of maps and mappers. Their job should be check if a beatmap can't be qualified, not if it should be qualified.

this isn't true in the slightest, BNs control whether or not your map gets ranked. if they're something unrankable in it, anybody can see that, it's not a BNs job to find unrankable stuff in your map, you should have no unrankable stuff in your map before you go to a BN. that's the way it works.

a BNs job is not to play janitor for you

on topic, I think this is a great idea, would give a lot more use to KD since right now it seems to be overlooked a lot. I have a lot just sitting there unused

Yes, I agree. But what I said here is that we should be able to have our maps qualified without BNs' approval, and their shob should be to disqualify unperfect maps, not qualify the maps they want.

Krah wrote:

Farming kd to force peoples to mod your map ?

Just no =)


I know that how the system currently work isn't the best but what you suggest is just not a good idea.

Well, it would at least make Kudosus useful, since they have no point right now. The only thing that matters about mapping nowadays is having BN friends. Kudos are useless and having a BN mod will make your map high-priority instantly because other bNs will come immediatly.

Genocide wrote:

what?!
to summoned your thread by BN, you need at least 15/30SP OR you need to ask BN to mod/check your map
very unnecessary thing this is.

The point would be to spend 25-30 Kudos to mark your map as "Requesting BN with high priority", or buy a token to request a mod from the BN team.
To make it clear : You have 200 kud -> Buy a Token -> You have 170 Kud. It's something you buy.
As baraatje states, if you don't have a BN friend, you can't get a mod through the regular ways (queue, IRC, MP...) because they won't answer you or won't mod you because they say they're busy.

baraatje123 wrote:

Genocide, that is an invalid comparison
Why?
For CtB mode for example, there are BN which are busy, thus not modding
There are BN who have queues, which are 24/7 closed
There are BN who take requests, only for songs they like
There are BN who only take requests from Ranked mappers, so that the map is at least of decent quality
This is already everyone from the CtB BN
If you don't apply to any of these 5 categories, you can NEVER get a CtB map/mapset ranked, or even bubbled
This at least makes sure there is a CtB BN who'll look at it
It may not be the best idea, but it's still helpful and neccessary due to herefor mentioned problem

It's not only CTB, but all the mods. If you don't know any BN, you're screwed. BNs are busy modding their friends. Their queues are filled in seconds. And when you ask in-game, they always refuse if you aren't their friends. Problem is you can't get a BN mod through the current regular ways.

Arcubin wrote:

just.... just no...

BNs also have their right to do whatever he/she want. you shouldn't rush them.

Well, they applied to be BN, and so applied to mod people. If they don't want to mod people that aren't their friends, they shouldn't have been BNs in the first place, it's not like they've been forced to be. That's the problem, I think. They applied to that position, who is required to get your maps ranked, but don't mod other people than their friends, so it makes the ranking process really unbalanced.

Stefan wrote:

Is that similar to your request?:


t/23174

Look like it is. Lots of kuds, lots of mods, not ranked. But it looks like it's got some BAT mods, so I'm not sure.

Think about the BNs, they have real life and they can't just check every maps.
If they say they are busy they are probably busy. Everyone starts with no BN friends.
Their mods are not something you buy, have you seen how busy those BNs are dealing with different kinds of problems?